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Thread: IEI-LIE Supervision Relations (INFp and ENTj)

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    Default IEI-LIE Supervision Relations (INFp and ENTj)

    I have heard that Supervisor/Supervisee matches tend not to do well for long term relationships, but are there logical exceptions to this? I would like to observe specifically the relationship between the INFp and the ENTj. The usual problem I have seen is the the ENTj is too critical, and the INFp is too sensitive. But it seems to me that this can play in the relationship's favor.

    I think the difference between INFp and ENTj provides a good complimentary pair. The ENTj is directive because of their desire for conquest, and the INFp is responsive because of their desire for the ENTj's favor.

    It's not a balanced relationship, and I can understand that it could be draining... but it seems to me that if both sides can respect each others differences, couldn't it be fulfilling for both?

    EDIT: Okay, first and foremost, after a few days now I know much more about the differences between Socionics and MBTI. This post was based on the premise that I was an INFp. Therefore, my understanding of what an INFp is like was skewed by my self-perception. I also have a better understand of what "supervision" is. It's not really "someone watching over you" so much as it is "revision," which would be "someone correcting your mistakes." For these reasons, there is really no reason to respond to this original post that started this thread.

    In other words: While my original question may be unanswered, the question I was REALLY asking was answered. I mistyped myself.
    Last edited by Taknamay; 09-10-2011 at 01:19 PM.

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    I've had compatible relationships w/ INFps before.

    IME, it works out fine mentally and physically—the downside is it isn't emotionally sustainable. I'd found it difficult to personally connect in a way that's preferable to me, and I'm generally non-responsive to their guidance in a way that becomes unsatisfying for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I'm generally non-responsive to their guidance in a way that becomes unsatisfying for them.
    Can you elaborate? I am afraid I will be having a hard time understanding without an example.

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    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 02:59 AM.

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    Ah, I see. But I wouldn't give that sort of advice, since I'm socially awkward myself...

    Is that unusual for INFp's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Well for example, if I pull a social faux pas, they'll point it out to me, explain how I fucked up and that I should've done this or that instead.
    That sounds more like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Well for example, if I pull a social faux pas, they'll point it out to me, explain how I fucked up and that I should've done this or that instead.
    That sounds more like
    It's Fe if the social faux pas was about some keeping up of appearances or fitting/contributing to/not going against the pre-established emotional atmosphere.

    It's Fi if the social faux pas was about saying/doing something inappropriate towards a friendship (in the sense of doing/saying something that makes you seem like you dont want to be friends) or making oneself look like a person with bad character.

    in other words, it could be either one, depending on what the faux pas was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post

    Can you elaborate? I am afraid I will be having a hard time understanding without an example.
    Well for example, if I pull a social faux pas, they'll point it out to me, explain how I fucked up and that I should've done this or that instead.
    Don't mean to interrupt here, but just curious on your thoughts: Don't ISFjs point out if one made a social faux pas? I thought that's pretty typical ISFj behavior to notice if someone violates an ethical norm in some way...

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    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 02:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Don't mean to interrupt here
    ^ Behold, faux pas avoidance. This is an open discussion just like all other public threads. So why do you act like you're begging permission to retrieve a coin accidentally dropped between two people who are fucking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Don't ISFjs point out if one made a social faux pas? I thought that's pretty typical ISFj behavior to notice if someone violates an ethical norm in some way...
    I find that it's a general ethical trait to remind the uncouth of their manners, not something tied to specific sociotypes. If anything, observation of this forum and its administration shows that it's Si-valuers (i.e. alphas and deltas) who are most invested in upholding propriety and decorum.

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    All IxFx types are quite tolerant of ethical mistakes and assholishness in their partner, as long as it's not directed at them, of course. Otherwise how could they be duals of ExTx? They couldn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post

    Don't mean to interrupt here, but just curious on your thoughts: Don't ISFjs point out if one made a social faux pas? I thought that's pretty typical ISFj behavior to notice if someone violates an ethical norm in some way...
    This is what I was thinking. I very rarely point out social mishaps, and they rarely bother me (unless its something incredibly idiotic). If I see people acting crazy and irrational my natural reaction is to calm them down & get them relaxed. But my EII sister is prone to doing moral judging . If she sees something that she views as wrong then she'll become angry & visibly upset; while my reaction is more like "lol wtf. Stop being an ass lol"
    I lost track of how we got on this topic - I think it was when people were trying to distinguish and . I work with some ESIs (sigh... should it be "ESI's?" maybe I'll choose the 'ESIs approach, lol - sorry, reference to another post about apostrophes). There is a lot of variation in how the different ESI individuals respond to things. I notice that the two older ESI ladies are more of the stereotypical negative image of the ESI, sort of 'set in their ways' and tending to complain about people doing things wrong. The younger ESI guy is more mellow than the older ladies are, but even so he sometimes complains if somebody failed to do a duty, like cleaning something they were supposed to clean. He doesn't always complain out loud, but there is this silent disapproval that emanates from him, which I pick up on.

    is often about holding up your end of an agreement, or cooperating and doing your job as expected, or taking responsibility and making sure that other people don't have to deal with the mess and the consequences that you've caused. 'Work Ethics' are something that types are concerned with, in my experience. This is a 'static' attribute - a long-term belief or attitude or behavior associated with a particular person. is a 'dynamic' attribute, ever-changing, a passing and temporary emotion expressed in the moment.

    I myself am still struggling to distinguish between and .

    After reading through this entire thread and seeing the last two posts by Taknamay and poli, I can see what's going on: Taknamay was wondering about an INFJ/ENTJ attraction, but trying to phrase it in terms of an INFP/ENTJ attraction. That might have come from the Myers-Briggs world, where they do, in fact, tell you that an INFP is supposed to be attracted to an ENTJ. According to one way of doing things, you are supposed to 'Change every letter except the S/N.' The result is a supervision relation in socionics. That's at least a teensy bit better than some of the recommendations to simply 'change every letter,' which results in a conflict relation.

    The JCF (Jungian Cognitive Functions) people aren't able to account for an attraction between an INFJ and an ENTJ. Their way of arranging the functions is so screwed up that you aren't able to just glance at someone's function list and see how their functions match up with their duals' and their semi-duals' functions the way we can in socionics.

    That's just an example of how the Myers-Briggs - Keirseyians - JCF people are totally screwed up. That would be the 'theoretical construct having nothing to do with reality' that poli referred to.

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    I've actually thought this before. I fucking hate some ENTjs out there but one of my best friends last year was ENTj and I totally think it could work...definitely fell for her for a bit... I think subtypes might play a slight role...she was the cooler subtype...not the "I know it all and I'm awesome RAWR!" subtype......anyways, if you really think about it intertype relations are at least a bit subjective. Who's to say I don't prefer a relationship in which someone supervises me and takes care of me? but that's just me...and most likely someone on here will talk about how THERE ARE RULES IN SOCIONICS! Entj and Infp will NEVER WORK! ARGGG! I EAT BABIES! RAWR! ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    ...if you really think about it intertype relations are at least a bit subjective. Who's to say I don't prefer a relationship in which someone supervises me and takes care of me?
    Yes, this is essentially my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post


    Quote Originally Posted by sar View Post
    ...if you really think about it intertype relations are at least a bit subjective. Who's to say I don't prefer a relationship in which someone supervises me and takes care of me?
    Yes, this is essentially my point.
    I have to argue a bit about what the word 'supervision' means here. Some people use that word to mean that someone is watching over you and protecting you.

    But the socionics relation called 'supervision' might have been 'lost in translation.' It was translated from Russian, and in the past, they called it 'Revision,' or something like that. They had difficulty deciding what word to call it. So whatever that relation is, it might not mean the same thing that 'supervision' suggests in your mind.

    I've had some experiences with 'the bad kind' of supervision relationships. The situation is worst whenever somebody actually has power over you, like a boss at work. You have to obey what they tell you to do. However, because of the socionic functions, you are going to disagree strongly with a lot of the things they require you to do, and you will see what looks like these big, obvious weaknesses about them, or else they will seem like just a horribly cruel and insane person who's abusing you for no reason - it depends on whether your type is the 'top' or the 'bottom' of the socionic relation. But it's only like that if they have power over you.

    If two people in a supervision relation are talking together in a place where nobody really has power over the other, then you can sort of ignore, or avoid, or not even notice at all, each other's weaknesses. You can talk about common interests and avoid any of the weaknesses. I have a couple real-world relations with ESEs, my supervisor, and we are almost always okay with each other, because they're not in a position where they command me to do things that I disagree with. Instead we just talk to each other like normal people. But we wouldn't get along if we lived in the same house together.

    I also know a suspected LIE in real life, and he is in the upper level management at the place where I work, so I have to obey the rules that he makes. And it turns out that yes, this does indeed cause conflicts, and whenever I notice something that bothers me, it does in fact fit the theory that my base function, Si, is complaining whenever he makes decisions that value other things above Si.

    I remember some bad experiences with ESEs in the past, in my childhood - they were the kids in school who would mock me and make fun of the things I was saying. They had this ability to imitate my tone of voice in a way that made me look really pathetic. And so I tense up if I walk past a group of people who are all laughing loudly - I get this feeling that they're laughing at me, even though I know they're not. When I was a child, I had no way to avoid these people - we were stuck in school together.

    It depends on how close you get to the person, and how much power they have over you, or you over them. It also depends on other factors, such as whether these people are healthy or unhealthy, whether they are mature or immature, whether they're drunk (or whatever) or on any kind of drugs that make them more impulsive so that they blurt out hurtful things, etc.

    But anyway, 'supervision' might not mean the same thing in your mind, as it means in the socionic relation. Maybe they will someday choose a different word to describe that relation.

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    Okay, thank you Nico1e. Your explanation was very helpful to my understanding of what supervision means in context.

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    I think for my original proposition, the romance styles makes more sense.

    Aggressor/Victim
    Caretaker/Infantile

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    I think for my original proposition, the romance styles makes more sense.

    Aggressor/Victim
    Caretaker/Infantile
    Sorry to get off topic but.....

    I really like your turtle.

    It reminds me of this:


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    Quote Originally Posted by bionic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    I think for my original proposition, the romance styles makes more sense.

    Aggressor/Victim
    Caretaker/Infantile
    Sorry to get off topic but.....

    I really like your turtle.

    It reminds me of this:
    I am glad you like my turtle. And thanks for the video. It was... nice.

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    Doesn't really work out.

    Could you seriously see Ashton and I dating? Even if he was gay? lmao. That would be funny.

    Or even me and FDG?

    One has Te-ego, the other has Te polr. One is Fe-valuing, but Fi demonstrative... the other is Fi DUAL seeking. One has creative Ni, the other has Ni-ego. The INFp is always prone to finding the ENTj condescending and patronizing and over-time, the feeling will be mutual. (Because of the INFp's Fi demonstrative when the ENTj wants it from the INFp's Ego, not Shadow)

    Emotionally, they will get on each other's nerves too badly.

    If you really can put all your feelings aside, then the relationship will be okay. But who can really do that? Supervision relationships only works out if the supervisor apologizes frequently and makes sure the supervisee isn't taking something the wrong way. And people really don't feel like babysitting like that, they'd rather be themselves. The supervisor has to use a lot of self-deprecating humor to be likeable to the supervisee. In return, the supervisee has to try and work on things they're usually ignoring.

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    Hmm. Just thought of something.

    If somehow the INFp was the one with more money, and power and the ENTj one was the poorer one, I could see it working out. Because that way the ENTjs Capitalist Rants would just bore the INFp instead of annoy them, and they both would want to learn from each other, since plenty of INFps like money and status, they just like getting it their own way that doesn't have to do with Te shit. It wouldn't feel like 'supervision' any more, since the INFp already has the bigger income, they might be more impressed at the ENTjs knowledge. Instead of 'Wow. you're just a dry, overly logical fucktard.'

    But this is all nonsense anyway, because who realistically gets involved with somebody that's outside their socio-economic class?

    I'm glad you found out you're INFj, Mr. Turtle.

    Generally speaking, things INFps might do or say to elicit responses don't work on me very well—especially when I'm already reading them and know what they're trying to do.
    And likewise Ashton, I know when you're trying to say something mean just to get a rise out of somebody and get under their skin so you can feel strong, straight and powerful.

    *Kiss and hugs you*

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    Yeah. I also think it's funny that people keep replying to this thread even though it was based on multiple misunderstandings on my part.
    What is a utopia? A dream unrealized, but not unrealizable. -- Joseph Dejacque
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    I'm sorry, but it was interesting even if it was just based on your misunderstandings.

    No offense to anybody, but the thought of having sex with an ENTj and being intimate with them kind of makes me want to vomit inside. I guess that visceral reaction is interesting to me.

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    I do understand that it is still interesting. I just find it ironic, that's all.
    What is a utopia? A dream unrealized, but not unrealizable. -- Joseph Dejacque
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    It is possible that a male INFp could handle a female ENTj, as long as she paid for dinner.


    I would not know about flipping the genders.

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    LIEs are complicated and many times moody/anal. ateleast basing on my own experiences. That chick sounds like an annoying bitch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    Yeah. I also think it's funny that people keep replying to this thread even though it was based on multiple misunderstandings on my part.
    I think that's funny too. It is an interesting thread even though it was started by a mistake. You'll probably keep on getting dozens of replies from people who keep on attempting to fix the mistake, and telling you 'You ought to be aware of X, Y, and Z when you ask this question,' and you're gonna have to put up a Frequently Asked Questions section so you can say 'We've already taken care of this problem. Next.'

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    I think that's exactly what I should do. I am going to edit the first post just to make it obvious that my misunderstandings were resolved.
    What is a utopia? A dream unrealized, but not unrealizable. -- Joseph Dejacque
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    I kind of feel like people dig a hole with themselves with this.

    On one hand, somebody can be just a general irritable asshole and blame it on their type, because yeah LIE *is* the quintessential 'business asshole type.' On another... people can make excuses for people who are rude, or in general are just trying really hard to hurt people's feelings because of their own issues. It would be like saying 'I'm IEI so I can't get a real job.' when really the person is just lazy or using social fear as an excuse to not try to better themselves.

    and well bettering yourself, goes both ways. You can better yourself or you can better how you treat other people, which is in turn the same thing I think.

    Also a lot of it is the person was just being an asshole and then it's like people were making excuses for the person... people should be more brave and stand up to assholeness when they see it but I also realize that life isn't a corny afterschool tv special. It has to be natural but it would be nice to see more people not tolerate douchebaggeryness.

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    INFPs are like INTPS; they make great friends material, but I wouldn't date them.

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    As friends and co-workers. This was posted in one of the VK groups by Danil Barabanov:


    "The relations of revision are perhaps even more unfortunate than conflict relations due to inequality of partners. The supervisor pressures the painful function of the supervisee, and the severity of this pressure is at its maximum: 4D business logic of Jack London (LIE) is rather unpleasant for Esenin (IEI).

    During the initial phase of relations, the LIE will seem to the IEI as a kind of a "guru". He easily accomplishes that which the IEI attains with great difficulty: the LIE quickly grasps, optimizes, and improves the algorithms of actions and activities, he adeptly identifies existing patterns and reaps advantages from them. His practicality, energy, and drive for activity will all seem impressive to the IEI. At the same time that which the IEI is able to do well, the LIE also doesn't do too poorly. Jack's intuition of time Ni is not as good as Esenin's. This is the ability to feel the flow of events, to discern when it's better to act and when to relax and stand down, and the ability to distribute periods of exertion over time. This constitutes Jack's creative function, not his program one, but the difference in one dimension is not so significant and striking (at least initially). Same applies to ethics of emotions Fe, which is role function of Jack and creative function for Esenin. Jack is able to generate emotions and create moods, charge others with his energy and positivism, though he doesn't do this as regularly as skillfully as Esenin. However, once again initially it will seem that Jack copes well with this function.

    In the beginning, the IEI will seem to the LIE as a "good guy/gal", but somewhat poorly adapted to life. After all, LIE's most important value is "logic of actions" Te: he perceives everything around him through this aspect. The LIE will faithfully attempt to teach and instruct the IEI on what he should do and how it should be done. At first the IEI will try to follow LIE's advice, but he will hardly be able to make it work. Discussions on "logic of actions" will also be highly unpleasant for Esenin - this is not his subject. Constant pressures on the painful function distract him from his contemplation, plans, and daydreams in his free time (intuition of time), inhibit him from creating the right setting or recalling in and re-experiencing valuable to him impressions, and drag him out into the sphere where he is uncomfortable, where he knows very little, and where he doesn't feel at ease. The LIE doesn't notice this. He feels that he is teaching only his best, tried-and-tested experience, most technologically sound methods, something that should improve the life of Esenin. The list of algorithms that the LIE can offer to the IEI is indeed extensive: from how to do his work more efficiently to how to position furniture in a room.

    The worst case scenario of development of these relations is a situation where LIE and IEI are colleagues at work. The LIE will very quickly dismiss all working methods of the IEI, then he will begin to analyze and assess his performance and the total benefit he brings for the team (company, community, organization). At this point he will notice that the IEI is a person of his internal states and this affects the outcome of his work. After this the LIE will try to get rid of the IEI - push him out of the team, transfer him to another department, or assign many unpleasant duties, thereby plunging him into work until he gives out.

    In cases when LIE and IEI have common interests (and preferably aren't working together), if the IEI's patience endures and the LIE has enough sense to not discuss topics pertaining to Te, then they can establish a relationship and remain on friendly terms. This is quite possible, especially during periods when they are both relaxing and taking it easy, as this will limit the focus on logic of actions and enable the IEI to express his ethics of emotions and role sensing of experiences (which, to a limited extent, is pleasant for Jack). Jack and Esenin can have a good time talking about general topics, their ideas and daydreams. The IEI is able to create the right atmosphere that slows down the flow of time that will allow the LIE to take a break from his typically busy schedule.

    But one should not forget that the LIE will always have Te as his program function, and the IEI will never be able to change it from being his vulnerable one."
    Last edited by silke; 08-17-2015 at 05:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    As friends and co-workers. This was posted in one of the VK groups by Danil Barabanov:


    "The relations of revision are perhaps even more unfortunate than conflict relations due to inequality of partners. The supervisor pressures the painful function of the supervisee, and the severity of this pressure is at its maximum: 4D business logic of Jack London (LIE) is rather unpleasant for Esenin (IEI).

    During the initial phase of relations, the LIE will seem to the IEI as a kind of a "guru". He easily accomplishes that which the IEI attains with great difficulty: the LIE quickly grasps, optimizes, and improves the algorithms of actions and activities, he adeptly identifies existing patterns and reaps advantages from them. His practicality, energy, and drive for activity will all seem impressive to the IEI. At the same time that which the IEI is able to do well, the LIE also doesn't do too poorly. Jack's intuition of time Ni is not as good as Esenin's. This is the ability to feel the flow of events, to discern when it's better to act and when to relax and stand down, and the ability to distribute periods of exertion over time. This constitutes Jack's creative function, not his program one, but the difference in one dimension is not so significant and striking (at least initially). Same applies to ethics of emotions Fe, which is role function of Jack and creative function for Esenin. Jack is able to generate emotions and create moods, charge others with his energy and positivism, though he doesn't do this as regularly as skillfully as Esenin. However, once again initially it will seem that Jack copes well with this function.

    In the beginning, the IEI will seem to the LIE as a "good guy/gal", but somewhat poorly adapted to life. After all, LIE's most important value is "logic of actions" Te: he perceives everything around him through this aspect. The LIE will faithfully attempt to teach and instruct the IEI on what he should do and how it should be done. At first the IEI will try to follow LIE's advice, but he will hardly be able to make it work. Discussions on "logic of actions" will also be highly unpleasant for Esenin - this is not his subject. Constant pressures on the painful function distract him from his contemplation, plans, and daydreams in his free time (intuition of time), inhibit him from creating the right setting or recalling in and re-experiencing valuable to him impressions, and drag him out into the sphere where he is uncomfortable, where he knows very little, and where he doesn't feel at ease. The LIE doesn't notice this. He feels that he is teaching only his best, tried-and-tested experience, most technologically sound methods, something that should improve the life of Esenin. The list of algorithms that the LIE can offer to the IEI is indeed extensive: from how to do his work more efficiently to how to position furniture in a room.

    The worst case scenario of development of these relations is a situation where LIE and IEI are colleagues at work. The LIE will very quickly dismiss all working methods of the IEI, then he will begin to analyze and assess his performance and the total benefit he brings for the team (company, community, organization). At this point he will notice that the IEI is a person of his internal states and this affects the outcome of his work. After this the LIE will try to get rid of the IEI - push him out of the team, transfer him to another department, or assign many unpleasant duties, thereby plunging him into work until he gives out.

    In cases when LIE and IEI have common interests (and preferably aren't working together), if the IEI's patience endures and the LIE has enough sense to not discuss topics pertaining to Te, then they can establish a relationship and remain on friendly terms. This is quite possible, especially during periods when they are both relaxing and taking it easy, as this will limit the focus on logic of actions and enable the IEI to express his ethics of emotions and role sensing of experiences (which, to a limited extent, is pleasant for Jack). Jack and Esenin can have a good time talking about general topics, their ideas and daydreams. The IEI is able to create the right atmosphere that slows down the flow of time that will allow the LIE to take a break from his typically busy schedule.

    But one should not forget that the LIE will always have Te as his program function, and the IEI will never be able to change it from being his vulnerable one."
    I would like to point out that this is all very accurate, in my experience anyway.
    Gotta find more articles by Danil Barabanov.
    New Youtube [x] Get Typed! [x]
    Celebs [x] Theory [x] Tumblr [x]

    *********** 21-04-19:
    "Looks like a mystic that just arrived to battle and staring out at the battle, ready to unleash"



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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    The list of algorithms that the LIE can offer to the IEI is indeed extensive: from how to do his work more efficiently to how to position furniture in a room.
    Phobic So/Sp 6w7 3w2 9w1
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    I just got done watching the first Expendables movie. The relationship between the warlord dude (IEI) and the business-y guy in the suit (LIE) seemed to be a good representation of LIE-IEI supervision. The LIE kept reminding the warlord dude that him and his army couldn't make it without him and his money and you can easily see the warlord dude's powerlessness against the LIE, even in spite of him being in command of an army.

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    Well my LIE-Te (so/sx 7w6) roommate's boyfriend has turned out to be IEI-Fe (sx/sp 9w8). This is so interesting to watch.

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    Damn, @silke. I remember reading your post on Barabanov’s article when you first posted it, but I had forgotten how true it was. It mirrors precisely my relationship with an IEI-Fe.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting that and clarifying things for me.
    Now I need to tone down my Te in favor of her Fe and Ni, which won’t be easy, since Te is what I do best.

    I wish I could introduce her to an SLE-Ti friend of mine who shares some of her interests, but your article says that my attempts to help her are not her solution.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 01-10-2018 at 11:40 AM.

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    revisor relations are easier in romance and bussines than conflict

    > Same applies to ethics of emotions Fe, which is role function of Jack and creative function for Esenin.

    joke

    the thing of conflict IR - they give the most interesting experience as it's the most different people. would be useful to find ways to feel good in them, to establish prodictive cooperation of strong parts of people
    duals are comfortable, but limit to your values and J/P side

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