Children

[Megan]

I have a few thoughts.

My parents were teachers. I remember them going to an inservice about learning styles and being encouraged to "type" their students and figure out if they were visual learners or whatever.

I don't see that as being substantially different than trying to figure out what socionics type a student is.

I do not know anything about the learning system you are referring to. I do not know if it has been tested and shown to yeild good results. Again, were are talking about socionics, it would be helpful for me if we could stick to socionics rather than other systems.

If one kind of typing is encouraged in a school, then I don't see why another type of typing would be discouraged.

I do not know where or why this was encouraged. I do not think that because one method has been shown to be of benefit that we can conclude that it is alright to then apply a different and seperate method.

One is not more or less dangerous than another.

I am not sure about why you keep pressing on the word danger. I am more concerned about benefit and effectiveness.

You say the fact that teachers have done this in the past doesn't matter.

I did not say it did not matter. I think it does matter. What I said was that because teachers have done so in the past does not mean it is desirable.

I think it does because not only has it happened, it is happening every day. And not just in schools but everywhere. We all type in some way or another and sometimes we are all wrong.

I wonder why you feel the need to type people? Again, because everyone is doing it does not make it o.k.
I am often suspicious of things everyone is doing. The "everyone" is doing it argument holds no weight with me at all.

Also, I don't want my daughter's teachers to teach in the most safe way possible.

That is your preference. Other people want to know that teachers are not using some untested method on their children that they do not approve of.
This is why I think Maize need to tell the parents and the school administrators if she is going to continue to expiriment with how well socionics work on the children so they can make a choice for themselves about whether this is o.k with them.

I want them to be creative and to be allowed to think and try to reach students however they can.

I want teachers to be creative too and this is exactly why I do not want them to almost lazily apply labels to the children instead of really getting to know and understand them as individuals. I think teachers can be both creative and be concerned with effectiveness.

What kind of education would kids get from teachers who never did anything that could have any possible negative effect at all, not matter how small the chance of something bad happening.

I would prefer it if teachers of young children do not carry out their own personal expiriments on them using a controversial theory like socionics. Why can't we just wait until more is known about socionics and the functions?

Oh, one thing was that I think you see socionics as being much more powerful than I see it. I don't think believing someone is one type or another is going to change diddly.

It will change "diddly" if you are applying a programme to a child that you think is ESFp when the child is some other type that needs a different kind of treatment. This is of course assuming that children can be typed.

If you thought that labelling children using socionics has so little power then why use it in the classroom then and waste the children precious time and the school's resources in the process? How can you expect benefits from something that is powerless?

I think labels are very powerful especially when applied to young children. I wish you would say why exactly you disagree with this point in particular.

[Slacker]

If Maize keeps her thoughts to herself, I don't think the labels would be powerful. If she wrote them down in a record that went from teacher to teacher for the rest of the child's life, that could be powerful.

And I completely disagree that this is an experiment. She isn't doing anything to the children. She is trying to understand them. That isn't experimenting. It isn't any different than any other way a teacher tries to understand her students.

I think Socionics is powerless against the child. It might be useful to a teacher if she's trying to understand a child's motivations and communication style so she can work with the child better. But internally thinking "I think this child is ****" doesn't do anything to the child. It's just an attempt to understand. Nothing more.

Overall, I just think you are blowing this WAY out of proportion.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Teachers (both genders, Nicky *cough* =p ) have an extremely strong affect on children that will effect them in one way or another throughout a persons lifespan. This has been shown time and time again in both major social sciences (something they can agree on for once, go figure). These are the formative years when social roleplay (and many other things I do not care to list) is learned.

Now... I think Maize is great. Im not sure what she did is all that wrong. I do not feel she meant anything by it. It's hard to fault someone on something new since no standard has been set. I do feel that we should think of how such a theory (theories, really...) impacts people, though (youth and adult alike).

[Slacker]

I said she just because Maize is a she and I didn't feel like typing she or he over and over again.

Of course teachers have a lot of influence over their students, but that influence isn't all wrapped up in something like this.

And I still don't think we're talking about trying to type with Socionics and not making any assumptions at all. That's a false dichotomy. It just isn't reality.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Of course teachers have a lot of influence over their students, but that influence isn't all wrapped up in something like this.

That is false. Any time something is internalized, the thoughts are very likely to be presented in active behavior. This, in turn, can be learned and mimiced. I think Megan explained that already. For example, prior to the 1990's, male students were given more educational attention (teacher to student time) than female students because of the roles internalized in the teachers. This model of bahavior (since the teacher is seen a a hierarchal role model) also impacted social interaction between the genders.



I have no clue what your last sentence means. Sorry :/

[Mariano Rajoy]

internalizing socionics will not have the same impact on behavior as internalizing social roles that are reinforced by the entire culture. socionics is neutral. what is done with it says more about the teacher than it does about socionics. if it isn't neutral than it is hardly more than a toy.

[Mariano Rajoy]

And I still don't think we're talking about trying to type with Socionics and not making any assumptions at all. That's a false dichotomy. It just isn't reality.

indeed, teachers are always going to have assumptions and ways of organizing, with or without socionics.

[Creepy-pokeball]

internalizing socionics will not have the same impact on behavior as internalizing social roles that are reinforced by the entire culture. socionics is neutral. what is done with it says more about the teacher than it does about socionics. if it isn't neutral than it is hardly more than a toy.

A. not if Socionics infers something. It is not shown to be neutral or not neutral at all. Afterall, it was made by a man that was not exactly the best role model to begin with.
B. Perhaps Socionics IS a social structure. What if X type is not behaving in accordance with Y type!!?!? There must be something wrong with them!
C. I agree with it saying something about the teacher (in general). Look at this forum as an example. There are such type biases running havok. However, there is no standard for it in modern education. There are educational standards in general (I hope!), but Ive yet to hear one that deals with something such as this.

Are there any education majors or educations graduates among us? Feel free to chime in about any standards. I do not know them.

[Creepy-pokeball]

And I still don't think we're talking about trying to type with Socionics and not making any assumptions at all. That's a false dichotomy. It just isn't reality.

indeed, teachers are always going to have assumptions and ways of organizing, with or without socionics.

Is that what she meant? If so, they can be taught that it is not okay to use such a tool. And if it is okay, how to use said tool.