Someone I work with

[Minde]

Right, so, I'm going to refer to this guy as B. from now on, in this thread at least, to make referencing easier.

Is SEE too far out of the question? I've been leaning pretty hard towards Extratim, Ethical, and Democratic, and this below part was really striking - sounds absolutely like something I'd do:

No, SEE isn't out of the question at this point. I'm keepin' my options open.

"Generalizations" isn't quite the right word here, but rather "abstractions" would be more accurate term. This is taken from Wikipedia, an illustration of progression from abstract to concrete:



From what I've noticed N-types, especially leading N, will more frequently use expressions alike examples 1 & 2 while sensing types will more frequently speak in concrete language (examples 5 & 6). This article http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...d_intuition.29 contains some phrases associated with Ne, "you basically imply that", "for the most part", "overall", "get to the root of" and so on, that demonstrate the same propensity.

Interesting, thanks.

It only happens in casual social atmosphere where such jokes are acceptable (close friendship, family relations, etc.) I assume most of your interactions with him have taken place in a work setting where he will act professionally.

Yes, and no. It's mostly only been in "work" environments, but the atmosphere is rather casual regardless. You're right, though - I don't know what he's like in a purely non-work context.

I was just kidding , though it might just be that he wears uncomfortable shoes. You take Bunter to work? I used to work in a lab with 2 dogs roaming around and I thought it was very relaxing. One of them seemed to be depressed all the time, but was very affectionate.

I usually work from home - so, yes, I "take him to work" with me. I actually would like to train him well enough to be an office dog if possible. He's got the makings of it, so I think it's just a matter of familiarizing and training him.

I took him to their office to visit them on a day when I only needed to be there an hour or two.

It was kind of funny. I brought Bunter in and there was a universal cry of, "Ooh, puppy!" and then they all sat down on the floor in a circle so puppy could go from one lap to another. Every single person in the office loved Bunter, and I'm slightly surprised I still can claim him as my own.


B. seemed as taken with Bunter as anybody else, if not more. He was a little more manly and subdued in his gushing, but gush he did. After things settled down and we got to working, whenever he crossed the room he would stop to pet Bunter. And whenever he came back in from going out of the room he'd really get into the reuiniting, puppy-is-ecstatic-to-see-you thing. He did do some small discipline, though, by making Bunter stop jumping up. Usually I have to encourage people to impose boundaries on my dogs, so someone doing it on their own, in a gentle yet firm way, usually means they're familiar and good with animals.




UDP, I'll get to your posts.

[UDP]

I'd guess that Bunter wouldn't actually like me, or I him.

B. seemed as taken with Bunter as anybody else, if not more. He was a little more manly and subdued in his gushing, but gush he did. After things settled down and we got to working, whenever he crossed the room he would stop to pet Bunter. And whenever he came back in from going out of the room he'd really get into the reuiniting, puppy-is-ecstatic-to-see-you thing. He did do some small discipline, though, by making Bunter stop jumping up. Usually I have to encourage people to impose boundaries on my dogs, so someone doing it on their own, in a gentle yet firm way, usually means they're familiar and good with animals.

I'd be very good with boundaries. Perhaps too good.

[Minde]

He seems goofy in a way I can't describe. Maybe it's techy or nerdiness.
I don't see him as an SEE right now. They seem a lot smoother, even the males. @video

Yeah, he's not "fluid" in his speech or mannerisms.

It's an interesting mixture of things.

Exactly, which is why I made a thread about him. There are some people who are easy to type. There are others (many others) who are harder to type. Some of those require patience and digging to find type-able characteristics. He's harder but he also has distinctive features that make him more interesting and thus a better candidate for thread-typing.

I'd like to sift out NTR stuff to get to the heart of it.

I suppose tentatively, I'll say an extratim S type.
Perhaps he's your dual.
He doesn't seem to be reacting to your inherent Fi dominance and reservedness in a negative way. He could perhaps be a good natured SLE, too.

He could be a lot of things. Part of it is that I think he purposefully pursues improvement and is open to newness.

And, you're right, he doesn't seem to be bothered by how I do things, and I've been trying to simply be myself, to see what happens. Although, heh, I have yet to fully pull out my questioning side.

1 I'm actually going to say that Se is not valued by him, at this time.
He seems to be ok with Ne, to a point of excessiveness, actually. I wonder if that points him towards being intuitive in the ego.

I'll agree with non-Se-valuing. He could be Ne-ego; or he could value it, and have practiced it / been around it, enough that it's a part of him now.

He does seem really ok with wandering around in conversation, ending up in all sorts of places. However, he does have the ability to get things accomplished in conversation, especially if he's talking with a client. When talking with his team, he'll comfortably follow others' leads, although he does do a lot of the talking.

So, for example, we'll be talking in one direction; I or someone else will think of something related and mention it; we'll start talking in that direction and he'll expound on it; then I or someone else will remember we should actually be accomplishing X and mention that; we'll go back to that topic and settle it, then sometimes move in another related direction. Or, sometimes the conversation will end with everybody doing a semi-awkward, "Cool. Well, that's settled." Once or twice he's shown appreciation for the person that corrals the conversation back to a finishing point.

It's kind of funny to me - semi-awkward moments happen relatively frequently, now that I think of it. Anyway, I digress. Moving on:

2 He seems to focus so much on possibilities and 'infinite ways' of things and independence, it seems almost lacking in an actual definitive structure, which is something I'd associate with ST types. I see he's a programmer and has ideas about 'how to do things', be he seems to focus more on presenting options and possibilities than saying "this is an effective way to get a result". That seems particularly not a beta rataional element of Se+Ti ('this is the way to do it') or ('here is the most powerful way to do things, the other ways are crap and not strong').

He does say certain ways are crap. Actually, as I've alluded to before, he'll go off on rants about things that he feels are defective. But he also does often lack a specific concrete structure for how things definitively should be done. For him, it's there are lots of ways to do something, but the key is what's the most practical solution. Practical and sustainable and even elegant. Trial and error is acceptable sometimes, but I think he prefers to think and plan it out first and get it right the first time around.

3 He almost seems to advocate personally not drawing attention to oneself or a certain 'pride' related to that. Almost defensively so? That seems somewhat alpha or delta.

I'm not entirely sure what you're meaning here. But he's for sure not a show-off. On his company website he keeps the portfolio to a minimum, for example. (One of the reasons he gave for that is that he doesn't want his clients to be bothered.) Instead he focuses on what his company has contributed to the open source community, linking to code that people can download and use for themselves. He definitely values "contributing to the community."

I don't think Patrick Stewart and the OP guy look alike at all, other than being bald white males. Definitely not the same nature.

Yeah.

I'd guess that Bunter wouldn't actually like me, or I him.

Why not?

[Minde]

- He is forward-thinking in terms of functionality. For example, he wrote a book about some website software, and he made an effort to break down and explain the mechanics and purposes behind the "recipes" he gave, so that way if/when the details of the software interface or structure changed, people could still carry their understanding over into the next iteration of the software. He also tried to focus his book on aspects that he felt were not likely to change especially quickly, aspects that were sound in design and showed signs of sticking.


- He isn't too proud to ask other people for advice or instruction or opinions. He'll go to the coder on the team and ask him how to do such and such. He'll go to the designer and ask how something he made looks.


- He's comfortable addressing emotions, more or less. And he's shown signs of being sensitive to privacy and how people might feel about things.

Kind of to expand upon that: All week the team has been working intensely on a difficult portion of a complicated project. The project involves a legacy system that was developed before more modern advancements in the technology as well as by various people who did not go by best practices (and who still don't, much to the chagrin of B.). The project I've been working on with them is just one portion of a much larger and overarching program to update and improve the client's whole system.

B. has shown a somewhat personal investment in getting the system improved. He's said a few times that he is going to get personal satisfaction out of removing various cruft, streamlining processes, building solid architecture, systematizing and improving the look/style guide, etc. I believe part of that is because the system belongs to a group that advocates better education (as in schools), which is one of his passions. Also, he's been involved with this group and their system for several years now.

Anyway, Friday mid-afternoon we did a touching-bases meeting, and he ended it by saying he thought we were at a stopping point for the week, both emotionally and in terms of the work. So he recognized and empathized with the emotional toll of working on a project like this - with not only deadlines and hard work, but also the elements of frustration at not being able to really do it right and having to keep working with a flawed system.

I'm not sure if that's just because he's experienced with working with people, but not every leader/boss seems to take that kind of thing into consideration.

[Suz]

His management approach seems very IEE to me.

Yeah from the last few posts, I'm increasingly thinking IEE too...

[Suz]

he looks like :

and that guy from lost who wouldn't let people push the button

Hopefully this is not just wrt to the oh so striking shiny bald head that all 3 men possess. (I had to really try and block that out... HARD VERY HARD TO DO!!). I do agree though that this guy does have other features that seem similar to the guy from Lost!!

[Trevor]

It is my educated guess that he is some Base-Te type.

[UDP]

He does say certain ways are crap. Actually, as I've alluded to before, he'll go off on rants about things that he feels are defective. But he also does often lack a specific concrete structure for how things definitively should be done. For him, it's there are lots of ways to do something, but the key is what's the most practical solution. Practical and sustainable and even elegant. Trial and error is acceptable sometimes, but I think he prefers to think and plan it out first and get it right the first time around.

points for delta/alpha

I'm not entirely sure what you're meaning here. But he's for sure not a show-off. On his company website he keeps the portfolio to a minimum, for example. (One of the reasons he gave for that is that he doesn't want his clients to be bothered.) Instead he focuses on what his company has contributed to the open source community, linking to code that people can download and use for themselves. He definitely values "contributing to the community."

Seems like some sort of bizarre aspect of 'humility', which is something I'd associate with delta even more so than alpha. His emphasis on 'contributing' to the community, in light of everything else about him, seems rather delta.

(I personally feel it's kind of an awkward take on delta values, even if I relate to it in a way).

It seems very "un-beta" in a particular way.



I'll say delta extratim right now. Perhaps a sort of "West Coast" take on being an LIE, but, maybe not. Some elements of him seem rather un Te dominant, but it could be tempered with whatever his sense of morality is or his 'beliefs', which would influence a sort of inherent 'profit seeking' in Te dominance.

He seems to have his 'set of beliefs' playing into his personality somehow, and I don't yet know what his "set of beliefs" is that is affecting how it plays out via his type. He seems to be exhibiting a lot of delta values, and if he's gelling with you so well (it seems?) that's even more points for delta.


If you don't feel pulled into a lot of "Fe generating" directions, as in, he would like if if you were more OPENLY EMOTIONAL + etc, that is more points for someone who doesn't particularly value Fe.


What do you think is more likely his POLR?
Ni or Ti (if delta extratim) ?

I'd perhaps speculate that it would be Ti, at this point.

Why not?

It's like everyone is supposed to love him and adore him, and that alone makes me not inclined to be that way with him. I don't know how he'd react to someone who doesn't fawn over him the way [basically everyone you mentioned] does.

So I'd probably come off as a jerk.

[Minde]

I'll say delta extratim right now. Perhaps a sort of "West Coast" take on being an LIE, but, maybe not. Some elements of him seem rather un Te dominant, but it could be tempered with whatever his sense of morality is or his 'beliefs', which would influence a sort of inherent 'profit seeking' in Te dominance.

Could you define "West Coast" a little?

If you don't feel pulled into a lot of "Fe generating" directions, as in, he would like if if you were more OPENLY EMOTIONAL + etc, that is more points for someone who doesn't particularly value Fe.

No, I feel I can be as low-key as I want. I do feel pressure in other ways, most of which I think relate to job skills. But sometimes I do feel expected to contribute to the clever jokes. I'd probably be ok if I remained silent, but clever joking can be fun sometimes.

What do you think is more likely his POLR?
Ni or Ti (if delta extratim) ?

Can you give an example or two of what you'd expect as a symptom of either?

It's like everyone is supposed to love him and adore him, and that alone makes me not inclined to be that way with him. I don't know how he'd react to someone who doesn't fawn over him the way [basically everyone you mentioned] does.

That's right, hate on the puppy. You're such a rebel. You should go paint your nails black next, and get some skull tattoos. "If everybody is doing it, it must be wrong."

He likes everybody. Even non-fawners. He'd probably only not like you if you were cruel. And I'd kill you if you were cruel to him. Thus, he'd still like everybody.

So I'd probably come off as a jerk.

So, do you enjoy being a jerk?

[woofwoofl]

I like SEE a lot still

I noticed lots of activity based around making things less difficult for everyone, being aware of the strain on people that work can take, going for the stable software system, all of which strike me as /... that, combined with how much of what he does seems to align extremely well with what I'd do if I were a boss - even the part with his good handling of the dog Bunter (which strikes me as someone being aware of )...

[Beautiful sky]

I like SEE a lot still

I noticed lots of activity based around making things less difficult for everyone, being aware of the strain on people that work can take, going for the stable software system, all of which strike me as /... that, combined with how much of what he does seems to align extremely well with what I'd do if I were a boss - even the part with his good handling of the dog Bunter (which strikes me as someone being aware of )...

I agree with what you write here about SEE.

[Lobo]

That's right, hate on the puppy. You're such a rebel. You should go paint your nails black next, and get some skull tattoos. "If everybody is doing it, it must be wrong."

He likes everybody. Even non-fawners. He'd probably only not like you if you were cruel. And I'd kill you if you were cruel to him. Thus, he'd still like everybody.

So, do you enjoy being a jerk?

He's just jealous of how puppies can get people to like them without any effort (just for being "cute"). Haters gonna hate.

[Beautiful sky]

He is ESTp type. They often make me feel warm and fuzzy too, Mindy. I think you might be in the company of a very protective and caring individual, just keep your Fi sentiments away and you'll be fine.

[UDP]

He's just jealous of how puppies can get people to like them without any effort (just for being "cute"). Haters gonna hate.

I wanted to see how she'd react if I didn't adore him.

It took one reply to get a death threat, and it was suggested I become Emo. I'm mildly impressed

[UDP]

Could you define "West Coast" a little?

I'd suggest you consult someone else, to be honest. I wonder if you'd see me as 'biased'. The best way to understand would be to actually spend a lot of time with people from' both coasts" and understand the cultural differences therein that are captured in that 'generalization'

In general it has to do with being more laid back, in this social context.

Can you give an example or two of what you'd expect as a symptom of either?

Ni polr is related to over focusing on Si details. So, focusing more in immediate fixations or 'doing things a certain way' right now, getting lost in the process of doing something, to the point of forgetting about time, or, even for a delta ST, becoming "impractical".

Ni polr can result in a lack of productivity because there is a simple disregard for the 'sequence' of things that go in to a long term process - particularly simpyl because of a focus on personal comfort, or personal take on aesthetics (again, think of Si > Ni, in this case). Si creatives can also have a sense of "wait, I want to feel like I'm doing something", that is, with their own hands or with their own direct involvement, and sometimes that can get in the way of other developments, particularly that which is necessarily 'intangilble'.




Ti polr can look similar in an overfocusing on 'details', especially emotionally related onese or analysis however, but the overfocus is more of a procrastinatory measure rather than an OMG I WANT TO SPEND HOURS ON TWEAKING THIS THING sort of feeling. Ti polr is also more rebellious of certain 'static' constraints - deadlines or uniform ways of doing things, and tends to have an isssue with absolutes.

LSEs seem more more able to work around solid deadlines or "reality constraints", or harsh rules -- they can understand how to 'work with them'... but IEEs can often times have 'issue' with such or feel 'cramped' about such. To Ti polr, such a rigid structure or "method" of doing things can take away from freedom or innovation, which is sort of related to a sense of boredome and innovation, and more angst will come in that way from Ti polr type. LSEs won't like them 'either', but seems to be a lot more able to use static rules or harsh things as tools, or maneuver them without having the same level of angst, perhaps.


That's one attempt at trying to differentiate between the two POLRs

So, do you enjoy being a jerk?

At times it provides entertainment.