Intraquadral love AND hate

[ScarlettLux]

So yeah I've pretty much run the gamut of loving and hating people in Beta quadra that I know IRL. They have felt the same towards me as well.

My best of the best friends and my worst of the worst enemies -- all fucking Betas.

Is this a pretty common thing? I think it makes sense because really, how do you feel so much passion of ANY nature towards people of an opposing quadra? When you're in the SAME quadra however... it's so much worse because you KNOW you COULD get along with them, maybe you have in the past, and now you DON'T.

You understand them, you can read them, even when they're being so fucking retarded, you still IDENTIFY. Is this why I'm feeling this way and am having all of these polarizing relationships?

My best, truest friends are: IEI-Fe, SEE, and a few LSIs. Never deserted me in my roughest times.

My worst enemy -- a fucking LSI. And this LSI has turned IEI idiots against me. Fuckers. I am done trying to be friends, I am done with always being the one initiating. When the hell will someone initiate for ME? HUH?

When the hell will I have to stop expressing everything I feel and going all out balls out with these pussy little IEIs responding with one sentence or two. Seriously. Stop fucking hiding and start fucking LIVING and being real witchyo self.

This was probably more of a vent than anything.

[ScarlettLux]

I relate! A more-than-likely SLE (if not, he's LSI) has hated me for over a year for some comments I made in jest, but he took seriously (I've even apologized for them but he still isn't too fond of me). It's a really weird relationship we have (I'm around him a lot because my friends are his friends), because there will be moments when I'll make him laugh his ass off, or say something that he finds really interesting, and he kinda loses his stance for a second, but then it's like he remembers that he hates me and goes back into hate-mode. hahaha. It's pretty funny, actually. He used to drive me insane as well, but now I don't really mind him. He has a pretty horrible temper in general, so I don't take any of this too personally.

Wow your life is my life. Well sort of. Yeah this LSI started hating me for making comments IN JEST!!!!!!!!!! Like damn is this some Beta ST first impression grudge thing? I also have had that experience where it was me, EIE, her LSI, and our two IEI boyfriends -- we have had the most hilarious conversations and hang outs yet she still doesn't let that change her mind.

[woofwoofl]

I've always had a sort of steady comfort and compatibility with people in my quadra

I wonder how much of this depends on whether the quadra values or , or, to a different extent, or - I expect Beta to have the biggest ups and downs, and for Delta to run the smoothest...

[Pa3s]

My best of the best friends and my worst of the worst enemies -- all fucking Betas.

You understand them, you can read them, even when they're being so fucking retarded, you still IDENTIFY. Is this why I'm feeling this way and am having all of these polarizing relationships?

Well, I don't know if those are only stereotypes I'm thinking of, but I'd say it's more of a beta quadra thing, at least how you describe it. Afaik, betas tend to have this "black and white" thinking, "If you're not with us you're against us." ect. If two people meet who have such a strong opinion, it's possible that they clash, even if they're duals, mirrors, activators or identicals. Some of them might only feel alive if there is some conflict in a relationship, so maybe then don't even perceive this relationship as overly negative, but more active and challenging.

[Satan]

Well, I don't know if those are only stereotypes I'm thinking of, but I'd say it's more of a beta quadra thing, at least how you describe it. Afaik, betas tend to have this "black and white" thinking, "If you're not with us you're against us." ect. If two people meet who have such a strong opinion, it's possible that they clash, even if they're duals, mirrors, activators or identicals. Some of them might only feel alive if there is some conflict in a relationship, so maybe then don't even perceive this relationship as overly negative, but more active and challenging.

black and white

clashing/conflict

yes

[Blaze]

So yeah I've pretty much run the gamut of loving and hating people in Beta quadra that I know IRL. They have felt the same towards me as well.

My best of the best friends and my worst of the worst enemies -- all fucking Betas.

Is this a pretty common thing? I think it makes sense because really, how do you feel so much passion of ANY nature towards people of an opposing quadra? When you're in the SAME quadra however... it's so much worse because you KNOW you COULD get along with them, maybe you have in the past, and now you DON'T.

You understand them, you can read them, even when they're being so fucking retarded, you still IDENTIFY. Is this why I'm feeling this way and am having all of these polarizing relationships?

My best, truest friends are: IEI-Fe, SEE, and a few LSIs. Never deserted me in my roughest times.

My worst enemy -- a fucking LSI. And this LSI has turned IEI idiots against me. Fuckers. I am done trying to be friends, I am done with always being the one initiating. When the hell will someone initiate for ME? HUH?

When the hell will I have to stop expressing everything I feel and going all out balls out with these pussy little IEIs responding with one sentence or two. Seriously. Stop fucking hiding and start fucking LIVING and being real witchyo self.

This was probably more of a vent than anything.

i relate. my daughter is 13 years old and an ESE. we were like peas and carrots until the day she got a lap top and turned 13.

now, we fight. probably normal. what 13 year old isn't a PITA? but ooooo can she provoke me. little wench. lol. she knows just where to strike. on the other hand, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. she gets it back. we are now on the mend and looking at alternative ways handling our conflicts, no worries.

anyway, your quadra members know you more intimately than the outlying quadra members, so they can strike.

however, it still is much easier to be around your quadra. just thing about your garden variety conflict relation. *shudders*

[ScarlettLux]

Honestly I dunno man. I think IEEs are pretty chilled and cool. I just don't connect with them on a real level but they are great to party with on a superficial level. Deltas I think just make me laugh cause they're so different.

[ragnar]

My best ... friends and ... worst enemies ... Betas.

Maybe because betas are overrepresented among those who get close enough to earn either characteristic?
Also, the intensity of the matter seems amplified by sex (f), club (NF) and quadra (beta).

Also, it seems to me that some unedified LSIs can easily be a pain for everyone, including duals and each other: Strong will, narrow, small and inflexible mind, little or no empathy or sympathy, etc.

[The Ineffable]

I observed this happening in Aristocratic quadras. They focus very much on palpable things, like wordly stuff, accomplishments, behavior, ideals, philosophy, etc. Concrete stuff, they don't look at people so relativistically like Democratics, as some templates (or how to name this?). I know Aristocratic Dual couples who broke-up, especially about two of them I was very concerned for being close relatives and caring about them (an IEI friend and my SLI ex). My brother (SLI) also hated my IEE ex for different reasons, all moral.

Discussing with my little circle of Socionics enthusiasts we concluded that these types focus way too much on "real life" evaluations, we could pinpoint the reasons for dislike precisely - which have nothing to do with their type. Their ethical/aesthetical/practical values are very strong and to them the fact that they're "psychologically compatible" means close to nothing (when they are told about it) when they hit the "real" issues. Like you say, Scarlett, knowing Socionics you can identify with your enemies, then you observe these causes for conflict are unrelated to sociotype compatibility.

Also note that Democratics can't so clearly distinguish these notions of "friend" and "enemy", so we can't speak in the same manner about attraction/repulsion inside all the quadras. Democratics interactions are based on interest, rather than values. I know someone said once (Schulman?) that things like age, religion, etc don't matter in compatible relationships, but I disagree, they do matter and Aristocratics put an emphasis on them.
So on short, what happens to you is normal, IMO.

[ashlesha]

i think conflict with other deltas has been more about annoying eachother and getting under eachothers skin in subtle ways rather than an all out war kind of thing. like since we generally get where the other is coming from its not so much like "youre awful" but its more like "ugh pls stop that."

[ragnar]

So yeah I've pretty much run the gamut of loving and hating people in Beta quadra that I know IRL. They have felt the same towards me as well.

"intraquadral beta conflict" thread on socionics.ws may be relevant here:
http://www.socionics.ws/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=879

[Slacker]

I fight iwth my sister a lot (EII). She drives me nuts sometimes.

I general I get along with Deltas, but there is potential for conflict.

[NewBorn STAR]

I love all, even my estj father.

[woofwoofl]

I observed this happening in Aristocratic quadras. They focus very much on palpable things, like wordly stuff, accomplishments, behavior, ideals, philosophy, etc. Concrete stuff, they don't look at people so relativistically like Democratics, as some templates (or how to name this?). I know Aristocratic Dual couples who broke-up, especially about two of them I was very concerned for being close relatives and caring about them (an IEI friend and my SLI ex). My brother (SLI) also hated my IEE ex for different reasons, all moral.

Discussing with my little circle of Socionics enthusiasts we concluded that these types focus way too much on "real life" evaluations, we could pinpoint the reasons for dislike precisely - which have nothing to do with their type. Their ethical/aesthetical/practical values are very strong and to them the fact that they're "psychologically compatible" means close to nothing (when they are told about it) when they hit the "real" issues. Like you say, Scarlett, knowing Socionics you can identify with your enemies, then you observe these causes for conflict are unrelated to sociotype compatibility.

Also note that Democratics can't so clearly distinguish these notions of "friend" and "enemy", so we can't speak in the same manner about attraction/repulsion inside all the quadras. Democratics interactions are based on interest, rather than values. I know someone said once (Schulman?) that things like age, religion, etc don't matter in compatible relationships, but I disagree, they do matter and Aristocratics put an emphasis on them.
So on short, what happens to you is normal, IMO.

Good call on the Democratic/Aristocratic - I never thought of it applying in that particular way!

On here, I noticed less activity in general within the Gamma quadra forum than the others, though the Gamma quadra people made lots of posts in general... I attributed that to Democratic>Aristocratic myself mentally, but not enough to point it out - as for me, I always want to hear where everyone's coming from, and though the posts from my quadra might tend to be a bit more digestible to me, it feels odd for me to purposely limit myself to those perspectives...

As for the Democratics not focusing on worldly things - how much would you consider this more prevalent in Alpha than Gamma (if at all)? I do notice a certain pragmatism within Gamma, though the term "practicality" comes with its own separate set of implications and connotations...

As for me personally, I never think of "enemies" or "those people", I just want to figure out where people are coming from, so I can figure out what to do from there on out...

So wow... between valuing, valuing, and Aristocratic - Alpha, Gamma, and Delta have one of each, and Beta has all three...

[The Ineffable]

As for the Democratics not focusing on worldly things - how much would you consider this more prevalent in Alpha than Gamma (if at all)? I do notice a certain pragmatism within Gamma, though the term "practicality" comes with its own separate set of implications and connotations...

These differences between Democratics and Aristocratics just jumped out to me IRL, I have not deduced them from Model A, I just noted the trend and the connections, and with the way Aristocratics are described it makes sense to me.

Yes, I agree with you, "practical" or "real life" are improper names, I used them only as much as they refer to juding people and relationships based on social facts. Democratics are more like "I want this, you want that", "I know the truth, you don't", not like "you should be/think like this", so their conflicts are limited to specific interests (theoretical or practical). As a Democratic, when you have common interest with someone else, that doesn't make him/her "one of yours", neither the other way around ("not one of yours"), like Aristocrats, that distinction is usually not even applicable.

[ScarlettLux]

I couldn't understand your post Ineffable. It truly was, ineffable, to me.

=/ I think creative gives me a headache

[Lobo]

Oh yes, I've found some who have annoyed the hell out of me, especially an LSE at work. At one point I was about to pull a grade-school "I DON'T LIKE YOU," which would have been very childish, lol. I've also been annoyed at other EIIs and IEEs. Well, I got a little annoyed at the IEE because he was desperately trying to mediate a group argument I was having with some LSE>ESE in one of my college classes.

Perhaps the most drama I've had is with an SLI, on and off friendship. I actually did hate the guy at times, cursed at each other, fight threats, but now he's probably the closest friend I have.

i relate. my daughter is 13 years old and an ESE. we were like peas and carrots until the day she got a lap top and turned 13.

now, we fight. probably normal. what 13 year old isn't a PITA? but ooooo can she provoke me. little wench. lol. she knows just where to strike. on the other hand, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. she gets it back. we are now on the mend and looking at alternative ways handling our conflicts, no worries.

anyway, your quadra members know you more intimately than the outlying quadra members, so they can strike.

however, it still is much easier to be around your quadra. just thing about your garden variety conflict relation. *shudders*

[glam]

I think it makes sense because really, how do you feel so much passion of ANY nature towards people of an opposing quadra? When you're in the SAME quadra however... it's so much worse because you KNOW you COULD get along with them, maybe you have in the past, and now you DON'T.

You understand them, you can read them, even when they're being so fucking retarded, you still IDENTIFY.

yep, it can be hard to get other Betas off my radar, even ones that are very different from myself.

one of my worst memories is from high school, having a face-off with an EIE "friend" in the middle of class in front of everyone, screaming at each other. it was in the class of a teacher whom i had had a great relationship with since early middle school, and after that fight the teacher was quite hostile and dismissive towards me (based on the EIE's b.s. claims about me), which was awful. i haven't talked to that EIE since.

anyway i do agree with the gist of what The Ineffable said about Aristocrats. Betas and Deltas can be harsh towards one another, though they may go about it in different ways; for example, like the EIE and I, Betas may have very loud emotional showdowns, and i've seen Deltas do this sort of quiet shunning of people whom they want out of their group.

[ScarlettLux]

yep, it can be hard to get other Betas off my radar, even ones that are very different from myself.

one of my worst memories is from high school, having a face-off with an EIE "friend" in the middle of class in front of everyone, screaming at each other. it was in the class of a teacher whom i had had a great relationship with since early middle school, and after that fight the teacher was quite hostile and dismissive towards me (based on the EIE's b.s. claims about me), which was awful. i haven't talked to that EIE since.

anyway i do agree with the gist of what The Ineffable said about Aristocrats. Betas and Deltas can be harsh towards one another, though they may go about it in different ways; for example, like the EIE and I, Betas may have very loud emotional showdowns, and i've seen Deltas do this sort of quiet shunning of people whom they want out of their group.

Dear God that is the WORST - quiet shunning. Ugh. So wait, what do Democratics do? Are they just not as harsh? Do Gammas even hang in larger groups? I feel like they don't. Maybe just a huge ass group of SEEs

[Beautiful sky]

IEE drive me nuts because everything is always perceived, hence an open door. It seems as though nothing gets conceptualized. Their Se role is really something, too. My IEE friend kept her relationship from everyone and then, out of the blue, married him. WTH

Anyway, she married her dual and I'm so happy for her.

Who else....

LSE - YOU'RE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT AND WE'LL ARGUE TO THE HELL AND BACK JUST TO PROVE IT, WHICH WE WON'T BECAUSE when they argue they want to just be acknowledge that they are right not to come to terms that the other person has something to offer. They don't even care the least about what and why you're saying what you are, anyway. ARGH!!!

EII - God, where do I begin. The dogmatic ones are too unkind, closed off, in their ridiculous world away from humanity. The scientific ones have built conceptions around their narrow understanding; the hurt ones are F-ed up and just shut everyone and their mother out and never will let anyone remotely close to them.

SLI - I like for the most part until I want them to do some Te, then it just gets frustrating and annoying.

[The Ineffable]

I couldn't understand your post Ineffable. It truly was, ineffable, to me.

=/ I think creative gives me a headache

I dare not to say more, feisty princess.

[FDG]

I observed this happening in Aristocratic quadras. They focus very much on palpable things, like wordly stuff, accomplishments, behavior, ideals, philosophy, etc. Concrete stuff, they don't look at people so relativistically like Democratics, as some templates (or how to name this?). I know Aristocratic Dual couples who broke-up, especially about two of them I was very concerned for being close relatives and caring about them (an IEI friend and my SLI ex). My brother (SLI) also hated my IEE ex for different reasons, all moral.

Discussing with my little circle of Socionics enthusiasts we concluded that these types focus way too much on "real life" evaluations, we could pinpoint the reasons for dislike precisely - which have nothing to do with their type. Their ethical/aesthetical/practical values are very strong and to them the fact that they're "psychologically compatible" means close to nothing (when they are told about it) when they hit the "real" issues. Like you say, Scarlett, knowing Socionics you can identify with your enemies, then you observe these causes for conflict are unrelated to sociotype compatibility.

Also note that Democratics can't so clearly distinguish these notions of "friend" and "enemy", so we can't speak in the same manner about attraction/repulsion inside all the quadras. Democratics interactions are based on interest, rather than values. I know someone said once (Schulman?) that things like age, religion, etc don't matter in compatible relationships, but I disagree, they do matter and Aristocratics put an emphasis on them.
So on short, what happens to you is normal, IMO.

Yeah, I think this is spot on.

[discojoe]

I've fallen out with every single female EIE I've known, and I tend toward rowing with the males. The only one I don't get into cockfights with is George, and he and I used to be mortal enemies.

In fact, with one exception, I've never had a single relationship with a Beta that didn't include a period of mutual hatred.

[ScarlettLux]

I've fallen out with every single female EIE I've known, and I tend toward rowing with the males. The only one I don't get into cockfights with is George, and he and I used to be mortal enemies.

In fact, with one exception, I've never had a single relationship with a Beta that didn't include a period of mutual hatred.

Wow ... now that I think about my relationships with LSIs. 3/4 have had that period of mutual hared. Wait no, that's including the one where we STILL hate eachother.

The other 2 are good now, but there is always a weird undercurrent of COMPETITION which might be just a specific thing for these 2 girls. They are very prickly, especially one -- seems cold hearted when you get to know her and the values she espouses. It makes me laugh though but I still don't understand it. She always says we're so different and we shouldn't even be friends lol

But the last is the sweetest LSI I've ever met. No one can really hate her and she hates no one so maybe THAT girl is actually the exception as opposed to the top 2.

Bleh. Maybe I *am* IEI.

[Jenna]

I don't have any enemies. The closest I've ever had to one is now my best friend, another Fe-IEI.
Actually now that I think about it, it's kind of similar with all of my closest friends.

Ni-EIE - I initially disliked her, I felt like she was forcing her way into my circle of friends, I guess she kind of did. We became really close though (we even showered together lmao!), she lived with me for a few months, and she convinced me to break up with my SLI boyfriend in that time and she set me up with an SLE a few months after (though she also set me up with some obsessive beta NF creepy boy..yuck). She got into hard drugs though, and we're not friends anymore.
Fe-EIE - I HATED HER. Wasn't mutual at all though. She was just fucking annoying and perky and loud and invasive and wanted to be my friend and I just wanted her to shut the hell up and go away. My thoughts were always "WHAT THE FUCK IS SHE DOING HERE. GAAAHHHH. SHUT UP. I DON'T LIKE YOU. WHY DO YOU LAUGH ALL THE TIME.." etc etc. one time she came up to me and said something like "you know, you're the only person who I would let shank me! Someone else came up to me and they were going to and I was like NO ONLY JENNA CAN DO THAT LOLOLOL!!!" and I replied "okay." and walked away. I was so mean to her and she didn't do anything to deserve it, I just didn't like her. I lightened up a little though when she started dating my LSI friend, and I found out how vulgar and hilarious she could be. She knows I used to hate her and we laugh about it now, it's not a big deal or anything. When she was 9 months and 1 week pregnant we went lazer tagging, to try to induce labor

[silke]

This is definitely not specific to aristocratic quadra. I've recently been spending time in a group of mostly Alphas - there was ESE, 2 SEIs, ILE, myself and another beta. One of the SEIs definitely has this love-n-hate relations going on with both the ESE and the ILE. Some of their clashes are Si/Ne-related, which is not something I usually pay attention to so to me it seems like they get really worked up over nothing. That led me to think along similar lines, that people within same quadra can incite each other's emotions more easily. Only in this case this was going on between democratic Alphas.

[ScarlettLux]

I don't have any enemies. The closest I've ever had to one is now my best friend, another Fe-IEI.
Actually now that I think about it, it's kind of similar with all of my closest friends.

Ni-EIE - I initially disliked her, I felt like she was forcing her way into my circle of friends, I guess she kind of did. We became really close though (we even showered together lmao!), she lived with me for a few months, and she convinced me to break up with my SLI boyfriend in that time and she set me up with an SLE a few months after (though she also set me up with some obsessive beta NF creepy boy..yuck). She got into hard drugs though, and we're not friends anymore.
Fe-EIE - I HATED HER. Wasn't mutual at all though. She was just fucking annoying and perky and loud and invasive and wanted to be my friend and I just wanted her to shut the hell up and go away. My thoughts were always "WHAT THE FUCK IS SHE DOING HERE. GAAAHHHH. SHUT UP. I DON'T LIKE YOU. WHY DO YOU LAUGH ALL THE TIME.." etc etc. one time she came up to me and said something like "you know, you're the only person who I would let shank me! Someone else came up to me and they were going to and I was like NO ONLY JENNA CAN DO THAT LOLOLOL!!!" and I replied "okay." and walked away. I was so mean to her and she didn't do anything to deserve it, I just didn't like her. I lightened up a little though when she started dating my LSI friend, and I found out how vulgar and hilarious she could be. She knows I used to hate her and we laugh about it now, it's not a big deal or anything. When she was 9 months and 1 week pregnant we went lazer tagging, to try to induce labor

Seems kinda rude tbh. I mean your treatment and description of the EIEs.
I think that's the problem with mirror relationships. Most ... actually ALL of IEIs I know/am friends with/used to be friends with saw me as bossy, loud, pushy and too energetic/excited but I think I'm being friendly and inviting =/

I see IEIs as "hiding" away sometimes and really unresponsive to my advances or initiations which is extremely annoying... wishy/washy crap.

[Jenna]

Seems kinda rude tbh. I mean your treatment and description of the EIEs.

Yeah, I know it was rude. It's not like it's something I'm proud of. I never actually did anything mean to the Ni sub, I just secretly kind of disliked her. Also with the Fe subtype, that was how I acted towards her 5 years ago. I was dark and depressed and hated the world, and she knows that.

I think that's the problem with mirror relationships. Most ... actually ALL of IEIs I know/am friends with/used to be friends with saw me as bossy, loud, pushy and too energetic/excited but I think I'm being friendly and inviting =/

That's exactly how I saw the Fe sub EIE. What's really funny is that both of you are 3w4-7w8 sx so EIEs who have been confused with being SEE lmao. Don't take offense though, what I said before was my impression of her for the first two months or so of the 5 years I've known her (though I still can't tolerate her for too long).

Anyways I agree with Clumsy.

[stray]

The time I hung around the most betas at a time was when I was in my teens, I guess. I had a sort of love/hate friendship with an SLE. Since we were both guys, there was as much competition as there was camraderie. I kind of resented how he seemingly had a lot of status in passive ways. He could push his weight around or get something in a lowkey fashion. For whatever reason, if we were out and about, he'd get the cuter girl, or be able to talk himself out of things by just looking more solid or intimidating. I always had to be more vocal, and had to fight more often. He always said I was too cocky, funnily.

On another note, the tables turned, and he started carrying guns.. then he (and some others) became the cocky ones. I didn't have time for any of that. I distanced myself. A few of them became straight up murderers. He never got busted for that in particular, but he and another we hung around are now in prison for rape... so it's fucked up all the same.

In retrospect, I should have hung around his brother more. Who was probably EIE. Last time we spoke, we kind of reminisced on how screwed up everyone became, and gave each other a hug, happy that we were both alive. He didn't get along with his brother either, so maybe it was never a quadra problem.

[mundaneday]

I've gotten along with my fellow betas pretty peacefully and most of my close friends are beta. If there is conflict, I will admittedly get a little passive-aggressive but realize what I'm doing and try to reign back and hope no one notices (lol). Nothing's ever progressed to such an explosive level, thankfully.

[Variant]

I've gotten along with my fellow betas pretty peacefully and most of my close friends are beta. If there is conflict, I will admittedly get a little passive-aggressive but realize what I'm doing and try to reign back and hope no one notices (lol). Nothing's ever progressed to such an explosive level, thankfully.

I like peace