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Thread: EII-INFj stereotypes discussion

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    Default EII-INFj stereotypes discussion

    What are they, and are they warranted?
    Johari/Nohari

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    positive:

    nice/caring
    humanitarian
    morally "good"

    negative:

    moralizers
    judgmental/quietly shaming
    innocent/naive
    prudish
    conventional

    i probably notice more negative than positive out of defensiveness or something.

    i don't think any of them are warranted. i think that they may stem from something that has some truth (like EIIs might tend to be more concerned with humanitarianism or behave more conventionally based on things that stem from quadra values) but i think its a mistake to type based on these criteria or see that list of sterotypes as some kind of checklist for what EIIs should be like.

    as for myself, i don't see most of those things as being applicable to me, but i can see how i might be perceived as having those qualities on the outside (especially irl).

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    I've seen the word 'martyr' on more than one occasion in reference to INFjs lol.
    Then naturally with Se PoLR you have your share of "spineless fluffballs with no capabilities of fighting back." You've also got your hyper-religious overly-moralizing unhealthy E1 nutballs, what with the out-of-control Fi that exudes out of their every pores at all hours of the day.
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    Manipulative.
    (i)NTFS

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Manipulative.
    is it warranted?

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    Isn't there a thread like this not too long ago?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    What are they, and are they warranted?
    Is any stereotype warranted?

    I almost feel like saying - what do you really want to know/
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    The thing about stereotypes is that often there's an element of truth in them, or there's potential for them to be true, but the problem is that they're taken as certain fact. It is not warranted to take them as certain fact. It is fair to recognize those potentials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Is any stereotype warranted?

    I almost feel like saying - what do you really want to know/
    i'm curious about her motive for asking also, if that's what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    The thing about stereotypes is that often there's an element of truth in them, or there's potential for them to be true, but the problem is that they're taken as certain fact. It is not warranted to take them as certain fact. It is fair to recognize those potentials.
    ya

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Isn't there a thread like this not too long ago?
    Is there? My apologies.

    I made the thread because while EII seems to generally fit, there are behaviors and motivations that do not fit what I've heard about the type.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    I made the thread because while EII seems to generally fit, there are behaviors and motivations that do not fit what I've heard about the type.
    eh, me too. but there are behaviors and motivations of every type that don't fit me, none of them are perfect, and when it comes down to it EII just fits better all things considered. i know this isn't a type thread and i'm sorry if i'm diverting the subject too much, but nothing that i've seen from you has ever made me think, "oh, that's weird for an EII."

    anyway - more stereotypes?

    overly polite
    neat freak
    frigid

    lol, fun

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    I don't know any EIIs who are neat freaks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    eh, me too. but there are behaviors and motivations of every type that don't fit me, none of them are perfect, and when it comes down to it EII just fits better all things considered. i know this isn't a type thread and i'm sorry if i'm diverting the subject too much, but nothing that i've seen from you has ever made me think, "oh, that's weird for an EII."
    You aren't (diverting too much). It's not a blatant typing thread, but I am weighing the information against my typing. The main issue is that I can be and have been forceful at times, and I made a habit of it in high school. I was even somewhat bullying about it. I'm also very possessive and territorial, and I enjoy having influence over others. Most of this can be attributed to upbringing/environment, but it still doesn't fit any EII descriptions I have heard. Sooooo, I'm looking to see if I'm focusing too much on EII stereotypes - kind of like INFP stereotypes. Have you seen those? Ugh. Airy, floofy, too good for this earth, and all that.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    You aren't (diverting too much). It's not a blatant typing thread, but I am weighing the information against my typing. The main issue is that I can be and have been forceful at times, and I made a habit of it in high school. I was even somewhat bullying about it. I'm also very possessive and territorial, and I enjoy having influence over others. Most of this can be attributed to upbringing/environment, but it still doesn't fit any EII descriptions I have heard. Sooooo, I'm looking to see if I'm focusing too much on EII stereotypes - kind of like INFP stereotypes. Have you seen those? Ugh. Airy, floofy, too good for this earth, and all that.
    Ryene what other types have you considered? Have you thought of yourself as beta before?
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    1)
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    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 07490 View Post
    Ryene what other types have you considered?
    I've considered most types at some point or another.

    Have you thought of yourself as beta before?
    Yes. I typed IEI for a while.

    (Note to mods: If this thread ends up needing to be split, that's fine.)
    Johari/Nohari

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    The usual stereotypes which I usually hear about INFjs are as follow: boring, prudish, pushovers. I thought these are usually misconceptions of how an INFj is like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    You aren't (diverting too much). It's not a blatant typing thread, but I am weighing the information against my typing. The main issue is that I can be and have been forceful at times, and I made a habit of it in high school. I was even somewhat bullying about it. I'm also very possessive and territorial, and I enjoy having influence over others. Most of this can be attributed to upbringing/environment, but it still doesn't fit any EII descriptions I have heard. Sooooo, I'm looking to see if I'm focusing too much on EII stereotypes - kind of like INFP stereotypes. Have you seen those? Ugh. Airy, floofy, too good for this earth, and all that.
    i don't think the ability to be forceful really rules out Se polr, partly because forceful can mean things like yelling when you're angry (which i think everyone has done at one point or another), and partly because it seems like something everybody has to do at one point or another in life (like to avoid being a pushover if you have kids, for example). i guess really wanting to be forceful, or being really focused on territory and influencing others, is something i would consider a valid thing to question in terms of an EII typing, but i'm not sure. it's hard for me to look at this without relating it to myself (i can be territorial and possessive, which has played out in different ways in different contexts, but not in the same way i would expect it to play out for an Se type - i would give examples for context, but i don't want to make this into being about me).

    i do think that the importance of upbringing/environment is a really big deal when it comes to how people of the same type will express the same functions in a different way. i guess the question is whether being possessive and territorial and liking to have influence over others is incompatible with EII functions (Se polr most specifically) or not.

    the thing that sticks with me is that since i haven't seen anything from you that has made you seem like a "territorial" or "forceful" person or whatever (not that i'm questioning that its true, i just barely know you )- i was wondering if you could talk about examples of this or what it's like for you.

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    INFjs are sexy and it's warranted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    INFjs are sexy and it's warranted.

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    I have always regarded the EII descriptions to be a rather idealised version of how I'd like to be - something that I could never come close to matching. There are times in the past when I've been "forceful" and many times when I've treated people in ways I'm not proud of - even right in that moment. I think it's simply the case that I can't quite be perfect (and even if I could, I'd still feel tainted by how I acted previously) - and that these concerns have always been particularly important to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    eh, me too. but there are behaviors and motivations of every type that don't fit me, none of them are perfect, and when it comes down to it EII just fits better all things considered. i know this isn't a type thread and i'm sorry if i'm diverting the subject too much, but nothing that i've seen from you has ever made me think, "oh, that's weird for an EII."

    anyway - more stereotypes?

    overly polite
    neat freak
    frigid

    lol, fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I don't know any EIIs who are neat freaks.
    lol i was gonna say, because my EII sister is by NO means a neat freak. I'm more of a neat person than she is and i'm not the neatest person ever either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    i don't think the ability to be forceful really rules out Se polr, partly because forceful can mean things like yelling when you're angry (which i think everyone has done at one point or another), and partly because it seems like something everybody has to do at one point or another in life (like to avoid being a pushover if you have kids, for example). i guess really wanting to be forceful, or being really focused on territory and influencing others, is something i would consider a valid thing to question in terms of an EII typing, but i'm not sure. it's hard for me to look at this without relating it to myself (i can be territorial and possessive, which has played out in different ways in different contexts, but not in the same way i would expect it to play out for an Se type - i would give examples for context, but i don't want to make this into being about me).

    i do think that the importance of upbringing/environment is a really big deal when it comes to how people of the same type will express the same functions in a different way. i guess the question is whether being possessive and territorial and liking to have influence over others is incompatible with EII functions (Se polr most specifically) or not.

    the thing that sticks with me is that since i haven't seen anything from you that has made you seem like a "territorial" or "forceful" person or whatever (not that i'm questioning that its true, i just barely know you )- i was wondering if you could talk about examples of this or what it's like for you.
    Being Territorial: Pretty much, what’s mine is mine, and what I have an attachment to is “mine”. I get jealous easily where friends are concerned. I’m not usually confrontational about it, though, because I don’t like people getting mad at me. If a family member is involved, it’s another story (I can be quite argumentative). I will try to avoid openly infringing on others’ territory, since I figure it’d make them mad like it does me. I’m very picky about people going through stuff in my room, but that’s because I hid all sorts of “contraband” growing up. The fact that my mother used to use what we cared about against us may have influenced my feelings on this subject. I keep my stories very close and quiet so that she cannot use them to manipulate me into doing something.

    Being Forceful: It’s fun being intimidating and having people afraid of me. Of course, few people are anymore. In high school, I had a “pet human” who… needed to grow a pair. I treated him poorly, even taking advantage of my position over him to bitch him out once. I have come to feel bad about my behavior toward him. I was also a physically violent person, which isn’t really type-related. I never did it to females, though; I always figured they’d hurt me back. It was done when I was irritated at someone or just for the heck of it.

    Being in Power: A lot of it may be upbringing, but some of it is just me. I was abused as a kid, so I don’t really trust anyone but myself to know what’s best for me (this also figures into wanting control). I pride myself on noticing and ignoring blatant emotional manipulation (like sucking up). I generally feel that the world is out to get me given the chance, so I try to avoid giving people information that they could later use to manipulate me (like divulging weaknesses). I also tend to avoid showing emotional weakness unless I really trust someone. I don’t know if there’s anyone I’d actually feel safe crying in front of. People will hear me say things like, “He really pissed me off”, not, “He hurt me.” I do try to somewhat dominate certain friends, and I think it could be explained as counterphobic behavior; if I take control, they become less of a threat. If I do show weakness toward/around people, it’s because I don’t consider them a threat.

    Having Control: I want to call the shots. I want to have the choice. I despise being told what to do, especially if you don’t have the authority to do so. If you do tell me what to do (outside of a supervisor-worker setting), my instinct is to disregard it and so remind you who holds the power over me, even if that action would cause me harm. I don’t usually follow through with that, but the urge is there. Depending on the person involved, I may remind them that they don’t have the right to order me around. Wanting influence over others figures into this and being in power.

    Well, this is longer and more revelatory than planned. Ah well.
    Last edited by Cuddly McFluffles; 02-07-2011 at 05:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I don't know any EIIs who are neat freaks.
    Me! Because my Si gets activated ALL the time by my Si friends In fact, as long as we have an Si to activate that function, our activities with regard to that function far exceed that of Si ego blocks, because we pickup on the very little regard and output for Si that our Extraverted dual pair values and being introvert and Si being an introverted function, it's much easier for us to be more Si then they are. Let an Extraverted any type go into the objective world, they begin to take less and less care and concern for themselves and their surroundings.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 02-07-2011 at 08:49 AM.

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    Addition to my last reply: I don't like confronting people. I'm usually afraid that it'll just piss them off and ultimately not change a thing. Also, I like to be liked, so I tend to avoid making waves. That is why I tend to stay out of arguments here. I do get plenty pissed off and feel the urge to give others what for, but it's easier to refrain from such behavior in a forum setting. In-person, I am much more reactive. The only people I get into fights with are my family, particularly the two Betas. I used to fight with the ESE, but she got physically abusive, so I no longer feel safe going at her that way.
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    @ryene-

    thanks for sharing. um, i've written out a few responses and then deleted them because i keep thinking that i'm probably projecting a lot and i don't want to accidentally invalidate what you've said or interpret what it means for your type incorrectly partly because i like the idea of you being EII and partly because i've questioned EII for myself before for some very similar reasons. so this issue of how Se polr manifests and if these issues are likely to come up for an EII are something that i wonder about, also.

    sorry i had you divulge and then this wasn't any help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    @ryene-

    thanks for sharing. um, i've written out a few responses and then deleted them because i keep thinking that i'm probably projecting a lot and i don't want to accidentally invalidate what you've said or interpret what it means for your type incorrectly partly because i like the idea of you being EII and partly because i've questioned EII for myself before for some very similar reasons. so this issue of how Se polr manifests and if these issues are likely to come up for an EII are something that i wonder about, also.

    sorry i had you divulge and then this wasn't any help.
    It's ok. You didn't make me divulge anything; it just kind of poured out. Thanks for responding, even if to say that you didn't know what to say.
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    I always heard that EIIs like to bake brownies and cookies.

    Seems to be true for me.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    *laghlagh violently slaps Ryu

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    @ryene-

    thanks for sharing. um, i've written out a few responses and then deleted them because i keep thinking that i'm probably projecting a lot and i don't want to accidentally invalidate what you've said or interpret what it means for your type incorrectly partly because i like the idea of you being EII and partly because i've questioned EII for myself before for some very similar reasons. so this issue of how Se polr manifests and if these issues are likely to come up for an EII are something that i wonder about, also.

    sorry i had you divulge and then this wasn't any help.
    EIIs delete things and divulge

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    Hm, stereotypes... useful in some contexts, the opposite in many others.

    Some here have considered me a stereotypical INFj, even putting me down as a sort of benchmark. I guess in some ways I might agree, but in others not so much. For example, most INFjs on this board tend to be a bit more jovial and lighthearted than me. (Haha, which means I'm terribly dry and boring, since the INFjs I know are usually only moderately jolly to start off with.)

    Anyway, even with me being perhaps the most stereotypical INFj here, I can definitely say that I don't fit into all of the ones listed here, and the ones where I potentially could still are not entirely accurate.

    Ryene, I relate to the territorial feelings a little. Are you an oldest?

    I definitely have a sense of personal belongings. I don't like when people mess with my things without my permission. I'm willing to share more often than not, but I really need to give permission first. It drove me nuts when my younger siblings would get into my things as a child and to this day I get upset if something of mine gets moved or used. As I've grown older I've noticed that this can occasionally apply to people, too, though I understand that people need to be able to form their own connections. I think this manifests mostly in the romantic realm.

    I also really like the idea of being in control of myself. Which is one reason I'm cautious with alcohol. And I, too, hate having the feeling of being forced by someone to do something. There are certain things that can set me off, certain ways people treat me at times, that can really rub me the wrong way and get me into a very rebellious mood.

    Some ways I can show my rebelliousness are to dig into my position and use all available arguments to prove my way is correct. Usually I am technically right in these cases, but I can end up pushing it too far. Another way I resist people who I feel are pushing me or un-rightly boxing me in or whatever is to use my network of connections to form an action that will push my way back. (Not sure if that one makes sense, so I can try to provide examples if needed.) Often what can set me off in terms of rebelling is if I feel something somewhere is unfair.

    In terms of controlling other things/people, that is something I occasionally enjoy, especially as it relates to either how they affect me personally or whether or not it's the "right" way. One aspect of my current occupation that I like is how I can control much of the outcome from broad view to details.

    I don't enjoy using blunt force to gain control, though. I usually only resort to that when frustrated past a certain point. And at that point, even with some practice, it tends to not go well or backfire. When that happens I feel lots of energy all bottled up in me and can sort of "tantrum".

    (As an interesting side note, when I get like that, the Si egos I know, especially the Ejs, will stop and adapt whatever they're doing to do this sort of quieting thing where they're like, "Ok, it's ok. Let's fix this. Breathe. Do you want some food?" Not in so many words, of course, but they tend to stop whatever else they're doing to pay attention to my problem and relieve my inner state of wound-upness.)
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Being Territorial: Pretty much, what’s mine is mine, and what I have an attachment to is “mine”. I get jealous easily where friends are concerned. I’m not usually confrontational about it, though, because I don’t like people getting mad at me. If a family member is involved, it’s another story (I can be quite argumentative). I will try to avoid openly infringing on others’ territory, since I figure it’d make them mad like it does me. I’m very picky about people going through stuff in my room, but that’s because I hid all sorts of “contraband” growing up. The fact that my mother used to use what we cared about against us may have influenced my feelings on this subject. I keep my stories very close and quiet so that she cannot use them to manipulate me into doing something.

    Being Forceful: It’s fun being intimidating and having people afraid of me. Of course, few people are anymore. In high school, I had a “pet human” who… needed to grow a pair. I treated him poorly, even taking advantage of my position over him to bitch him out once. I have come to feel bad about my behavior toward him. I was also a physically violent person, which isn’t really type-related. I never did it to females, though; I always figured they’d hurt me back. It was done when I was irritated at someone or just for the heck of it.

    Being in Power: A lot of it may be upbringing, but some of it is just me. I was abused as a kid, so I don’t really trust anyone but myself to know what’s best for me (this also figures into wanting control). I pride myself on noticing and ignoring blatant emotional manipulation (like sucking up). I generally feel that the world is out to get me given the chance, so I try to avoid giving people information that they could later use to manipulate me (like divulging weaknesses). I also tend to avoid showing emotional weakness unless I really trust someone. I don’t know if there’s anyone I’d actually feel safe crying in front of. People will hear me say things like, “He really pissed me off”, not, “He hurt me.” I do try to somewhat dominate certain friends, and I think it could be explained as counterphobic behavior; if I take control, they become less of a threat. If I do show weakness toward/around people, it’s because I don’t consider them a threat.

    Having Control: I want to call the shots. I want to have the choice. I despise being told what to do, especially if you don’t have the authority to do so. If you do tell me what to do (outside of a supervisor-worker setting), my instinct is to disregard it and so remind you who holds the power over me, even if that action would cause me harm. I don’t usually follow through with that, but the urge is there. Depending on the person involved, I may remind them that they don’t have the right to order me around. Wanting influence over others figures into this and being in power.

    Well, this is longer and more revelatory than planned. Ah well.
    pet human . probably stings because I think I've felt like one of those before.
    Last edited by bg; 02-08-2011 at 08:00 AM.

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    I don't have much to add that hasn't already been mentioned, but the stereotype I find most frustrating is the assumption that being EII means you ought to be overtly complaisant to the point of being spineless. Maybe it's some feminist feeling brewing in me but I can't stand the idea of being forced into the "delicate princess EII mold", I can't even imagine how irritating it must be for male EII's when they read some of these descriptions
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    I don't have much to add that hasn't already been mentioned, but the stereotype I find most frustrating is the assumption that being EII means you ought to be overtly complaisant to the point of being spineless. Maybe it's some feminist feeling brewing in me but I can't stand the idea of being forced into the "delicate princess EII mold", I can't even imagine how irritating it must be for male EII's when they read some of these descriptions
    Heh, yeah. I suppose, then, that it's like laghlagh said: we need a better grip on what polr is.

    I haven't forgotten your post, Minde. I'll have to reply to it on my computer.
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    FWIW, count me as another possible EII who doesn't fit the stereotype either (very much at all). I identify with one poster above who said that some of the traits are worthy kind of aspirations, but I did not come out of my mother's womb looking like St. Francis. And for that matter, nor did St. Francis. Wasn't he like some womanizing soldier before he changed? My point being that even the most morally lauded people in history had to go through some crisis or life changing event to change their approach in life to one of high virtue. Socionics/MBTI sometimes seems to be the only school of thought in the world that doesn't understand the concept of individual effort or the nature of morality. Nobody can naturally be that good.

    And while EIIs might not be aggressive, I have a hard time believing anyone is programmed to be even more worthy of pity than George McFly when it comes to having a voice in the world. Even he punched Biff and kissed a girl before asking her. But no, LII and EII can't do even this. Let alone more.

    As for the "conventional" part, I definitely don't aspire to it. I'm not exactly pretentious either, but that's rather odd than anyone would say that. Aren't Ne types a bit "infantile"? I mean, I think the Ne approach would apply in subtle ways outside the romantic interactions too, where they'd be anything but conventional. How does a Ne type all of the sudden become the gold standard of Stepford housewife like caretaking?

    That all said, I could be another type. You never know, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by straytk View Post
    FWIW, count me as another possible EII who doesn't fit the stereotype either (very much at all). I identify with one poster above who said that some of the traits are worthy kind of aspirations, but I did not come out of my mother's womb looking like St. Francis. And for that matter, nor did St. Francis. Wasn't he like some womanizing soldier before he changed? My point being that even the most morally lauded people in history had to go through some crisis or life changing event to change their approach in life to one of high virtue. Socionics/MBTI sometimes seems to be the only school of thought in the world that doesn't understand the concept of individual effort or the nature of morality. Nobody can naturally be that good.

    And while EIIs might not be aggressive, I have a hard time believing anyone is programmed to be even more worthy of pity than George McFly when it comes to having a voice in the world. Even he punched Biff and kissed a girl before asking her. But no, LII and EII can't do even this. Let alone more.

    As for the "conventional" part, I definitely don't aspire to it. I'm not exactly pretentious either, but that's rather odd than anyone would say that. Aren't Ne types a bit "infantile"? I mean, I think the Ne approach would apply in subtle ways outside the romantic interactions too, where they'd be anything but conventional. How does a Ne type all of the sudden become the gold standard of Stepford housewife like caretaking?

    That all said, I could be another type. You never know, right?
    i love this post. fwiw, i self-type EII and i agree in full.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    *laghlagh violently slaps Ryu


    Well, it must certainly be an anomaly that an EII would feel that way about me.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post


    Well, it must certainly be an anomaly that an EII would feel that way about me.
    the obedient EII housewife baking brownies thing just has to stop. and you seem to believe/like/encourage it, no? if that's what LSEs actually prefer, and EIIs are happy to accomodate, than yes, i guess i am an anomoly.

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    Expecting an EII to relegate themselves to cooking brownies and dusting is as silly as an ESE expecting the same from an LII. That's like drafting Tom Brady or someone and then telling him to play off the bench as a backup punter. Real smart. What is it about Ne ego that screams "This is my ideal floor scrubber"? Not to say they couldn't, but giving them these "interests" is ignoring where they might be helpful or creative.

    Besides, Si brownies are tastier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    the obedient EII housewife baking brownies thing just has to stop. and you seem to believe/like/encourage it, no? if that's what LSEs actually prefer, and EIIs are happy to accomodate, than yes, i guess i am an anomoly.
    Dude my own girlfriend isn't even that way.

    ....Although she did bake me brownies for my birthday. I guess she knows what I like
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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