Alright, I could definitely use your help for type assertion

[KeroZen]

Hi, I'm Alex, 31, male, new to this forum.

I've been studying socionics and related theories on my own for some time, tried to share it with my friends (with mild to moderate success) but I find myself in a position where I really need external help and opinions (my friends are rather sceptical about this all, and even with my limited knowledge I'm the one who knows (and care) the most in the group).

I'm posting this directly in the Beta forum because I've already a strong inclination towards a particular type...and also because after reading both this and the Delta one, I found the folks in there funnier..

To make things simple: I'm at a point were I can't determine my j/p preference at all, be it by self testing (either I'm too biased because I know what the test answers will produce, or for more advanced tests, I score 50/50 everytime on the j/p scale) or be it by logical reasoning (I read all descriptions I could find, tried to extrapolate by comparing to my friends types, tried to extrapolate by looking at my supposed dual, tried to determine by quadra values....)... to no avail!

Would you guys try to help me?

[Aleksei]

Tell me a little about yourself, Alex...

[KeroZen]

I could tell you what I scored at various tests, but I'm biased since the first one I took (MBTI) and even if I have strong preferences/inclinations for some types, I don't want to exclude any possibility by giving you false leads.

I could tell you how I interact with people of other "known" types around me, but again this would be biased as I surely analyzed those relations by emphasizing aspects that were expected and obfuscating "anomalies"...and if I'm not sure of my own type, it would be a bit too bold to be certain about others.

As I said in the introduction post above, I can't make my mind by reading types, functions or quadras descriptions (well I thought I could, I was even pretty confident at some point, but I kept challenging it all and brainstorming too much, to the point of "information overload" hehe)

So I guess I'll have to talk about myself, but it's not something I'm used to do openly. Not that I have any problem talking about my feelings, to the contrary! I can tend to expose myself too much, hence I try to chose carefully my interlocutors. (yes I'm aware this sentence is very revealing, but I could also be saying that just because I read it already too much in my type description....)

I feel hard to present myself here without emphasizing my functional preferences or being type-focused, also please keep in mind english is not my natural language, so I might sound different than I am due to lack of proper vocabulary and/or confidence with this language (insightful nuances might be lost in translation)

I never ever scored S in any single test, I'm pretty unbalanced on that scale.. I wish I could find the switch in my head sometimes to stop that bloody N analyzer, and my surroundings often make me realize that I should be living and enjoying instead of thinking. Well, I enjoy thinking and I have a wild and deep imagination. I often fall into instant S gratification pitfalls, but I've always been very moderate and self-restrained.

To counter balance my previous statements, I'm really sensible to arts and music: I can draw and paint, I used to be a music composer, played electronic music live in underground parties but now I only have time to be a DJ in small to medium venues (requires me a lot of efforts to fight my shy side, though) ...but...possible bias here again: I'm left handed and I read it could be linked to the artistic brain side...

I'm an information-sink, constantly "canibalizing" new subjects until I suck them empty (and with socionics and social sciences/pyschology I'm happy because the subject is deep enough to ensure a long and fun syphoning...:wink

I'm interested in systems and classifications, I'm a software engineer. Been coding since I'm 12, started by implementing all kind of video games but with a clear preference for systems I could create then let evolve by themselves without interaction, so I could have fun observing them (think cellular automatas for instance, but that would only scrap the surface)

Still, I'm not overly confident in my T and I think I value ethics more.. Sometimes I think I got what I call a "fuzzy logic" instead of a cold and rational one. I recall that at my previous work, during brainstorming sessions between boss and engineers, I often proposed "weird" or unusual alternatives, bringing into consideration details or subjects they all overlooked or disqualified but that in the end proved to be of much importance. I tend to come with the "magical link" solution, the thing connecting all dots and sufficiently "generalizing" to fit and meet all participants views, leaving everybody in the room with a big "eureka" smile and staring at me...

Ah I don't know how relevant it is, but I left said company to create my own a couple years ago. I teamed with a friend, I'm developing the products and he handles all administrative and company management tasks that I find so boring. My vivid imagination makes me more efficient when designing and conceptualizing systems (architect role) but less when implementing them (I'm not a fast coder as I'm way too perfectionist, same when I'm writing in ordinary language: I tend to chose my words very carefully) If I could change my current situation, then I'd like to hire engineers and take the lead position, focusing on design and long term planning, leaving code monkey tasks to others!

To conclude this already long post, you may wonder why I have difficulties making my mind on the j/p scale (even if it looks like it's the hardest dichotomy to grasp for many people), but I really do feel a constant conflict inside me between what I consider judging and perceiving values. Conflict partially fueled by my upbringing/education/family and also because I'm surely a bit borderline on the mental health side lately (creating my company was and is still a long tunnel, even if now we can see the light, it's been very stressful and absolutely not rewarding thus far... worse it's a constant drain and I'm looking forward the day we're finally "positive")

People around me envy me my strong will and think I'm "brave" and "courageous" for standing and following my own way, but I answer that in my case and when looking closely, the nuance between bravery and sheer madness is really thin...

[Aleksei]

ENTp/ENTP.

[KeroZen]

I've been considering "Don" as a possible trail, but only very recently. Descriptions do resonate a bit, but way less than IEI and EII ones to be honest. But why not afterall, you didn't even bother to put arguments on the table so I assume you are confident? hehe

But I'm reserved, especially with people I don't know, I can be uber shy, not self confident at all, I enjoy solitude and yes, like in most "I" descriptions, I really do need time alone after social interactions to recharge my batteries.

Sometimes it even happens right in the middle of a party, I have to leave the crowd and find a calm place, outside or near a window, or in a remote room...kinda...autistic!

I don't put myself forward, and I've been criticized a lot by my close friends for that: "You should be more confident and not withdraw yourself, you're a valuable person" (etc)

And a last detail I just happened to realize by chatting on IRC: related to conflict avoidance, I don't avoid them at all, instead I tend to initiate them or I sow the seeds of conflict as I dislike when things are not said and clear, so I often create open conflicts, stand by my opinions and argue. People shout, get upset and all, but afterwards when they think about it, they all agree it was for the common good and made the situation evolve or at least advance one extra step further...(even if everybody is hurt in the process)

But I most often act in the shadows, talking with individuals first, one to one..
I'm a good listener and because I'm reserved I attract people like a magnet and they all tell me what they feel... Then at some point I use all that knowledge to make things evolve (in what I think would be a good way hehe)

[golden]

I also, independently, thought of ENTp/ILE for you based on your narrative. That type was recently offered on this forum for my young child, and it was my first boyfriend's type.

Maybe you are an I type, but ILE can look introverted, I think. Your follow-up still sounds kind of ILE to me. Reserved, shy, check. The "recharge the batteries" thing does sound traditionally introvert. The rest of it fits, imo.

[KeroZen]

The way I see it: I have apparent strong T because I'm a male, followed scientifc studies alongside a lot of INTj's (scientists, engineers, many positively typed) and I'm expected to be serious and all. Now three things:

1) my english tone is biased due to my lack of language subtelties, I'm all into subtelty usually, and not that cold in real life
2) I often find my logic "sloppy" and it's pretty obvious when I'm around engineers and scientists who I find way more rational than me. In fact, with INTj at first they think I'm crazy but once they understand that I'm kind and won't hurt their feelings, they do like me a lot because I'm able to help them for love and social matters which they don't master too well sometimes
3) the real motive behind my interest in socionics, even above the interest I might have in it as a system, is to experience duality. I'm a damn romantic and sentimental guy and I'm desperately seeking "true love" (or attempting at least) as even if I've had quite a lot of relations, even if I had good times and many memories, I can't help but see them as as many "failures"...I often feel I have to hide this side of me that I often expose to much, because it's not very "manly" in a social and cultural way, hence I dress and act like I'm a tough guy, wereas I'm hardly one...

If I had to chose by myself for the T/F scale, even if I'm not proud, I'd chose F...

But again I'm not rejecting anything, I asked for your opinions in the first place.. so...

[golden]

Well, maybe someone else should chime in, but in my opinion, logical over ethical doesn't mean a person is not romantic or has weak feelings. And since this isn't MBTI, it seems like it really isn't T versus F, nor is T--F a scale here. Rather, the information metabolism shows you how things stack up--you have the various information elements, but how do they function for you? I know you've read through some descriptions of ILE/don Quixote, so I won't drag all that out. I will say it's not a type I would have chosen for my son (who's 7) without some guidance, because he's very sensitive and seems emotional to me, and he can be pretty artistic because of his imaginativeness. I would call the kid hotheaded over cold any day.

Anyway, you are the authority over your type here. Do you identify with Beta quadra in general? How come?

(BTW, if you are French, your English is excellent. I'm American, currently in Grenoble, and will be arriving by train to Paris tomorrow night. My French is so lame. :\ Also BTW, my boyfriend is French and tried to type himself F over T in MBTI, and he is actually a T type. So I have sometimes wondered if cultural differences play a part. The MBTI arose from a culture in which men's emotional expression is even more culturally limited.)

And welcome to the quest for duality. I think you'll find your goal is not so unusual among people learning about Socionics.

ETA: The thread about my son:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ype-child.html

and a couple of Youtube videos of an older guy who reminds me a LOT of my son. Typed as ENTp, but no doubt per MBTI--does anyone here care to comment on whether he seems like a Socionics ILE?

[Aiss]

Se/Ni over Ne/Si as far as I can tell.

Tentative IxI. I would say Ti-ego is very unlikely. FWIW what you describe is extremely familiar to me, especially as far as linking, seeing what is the crucial factor, somehow "fuzzy logic" and reaction to Ti and INTjs goes.

IEI over ILI because you say a lot about relating to people and consider yourself ethical.
ILI over IEI because you sound like a dialectical-algorithmic thinker, incredibly easy to follow.

[KeroZen]

First of all I'd like to thank you three for taking some of your time trying to help me out.

I would also like to apologize if I got some concepts wrong, I'm by no mean a socionics expert, at least compared to many people in this forum. Learning this subject alone is a hard task as there is so many conflicting info around online, esp. from people (like me?) mixing and confusing it with other theories (namely MBTI for the most part)

Let's see if I can combine all my answers into a single post, taking all your points and suggestions into account...

I do understand that E types can be reserved, or even not self-confident (I have for instance an ENFp/IEE friend who fits the "shy extrovert" definition well) I also understand that E/I only describes the first function "quality" and should be seen as such without extrapolating too much.

Talking about ENFp's, I know this particular friend for over 15 years, we share a lot of common interests and we were able to get close enough (even if I find myself talking about my feelings to him way more than he does in return...I almost have to extract words out of him!) But still, I clearly need to make a mental translation to understand him fully and we're very different.

To conclude this digression about my relations with this particular type, I also dated two IEE girls and each time I thought "wow, they are exactly how I would be if I had chosen the opposite path for every question I had in my life". Both relations were awfully short and the second one broke up telling me "we really don't understand each others" (even if we had so many common interests)

Now onto ENTp/ILE! I have another friend whom I just made confirm me his type tonight (he already scored and could identify to ILE, I had him pass some extra tests and read real socionics type and quadra descriptions, and he told me: "that's clearly me", including alpha quadra values preference)

With this guy, relation is quite different. We both respect and value each others a lot, also share many interests (including music) and have the same curiosity for new things and ideas, but it seems we can't manage to get any closer, and every time we tried to collaborate on concrete projects (we hired him as an infographist and designer for small and well bounded tasks) collaboration was very disappointing and unexpected (although in the end I can't say it was a failure)

But you see, I told you I would avoid talking about my perceived intertype relations, but I failed and I'm biaised!

By the way, assuming the guy in the video is really ILE, that's not me at all I'm afraid...but it also made me realize I got a nephew who is an exact copycat of this funny person! haha. When I say I'm reserved, I mean I never ever talk loudly unless I'm arguing (or not sober) and I would never act like this guy, doing the weirdo, if I knew the video would go public (they always do, meaning I would never do that)

Maybe I tend to control my external image too much...I recall an aunt telling me at some wedding party to "stick the broomstick out of my ass" (I'm not sure you got this french idiomatic in your language, but I let you guys imagine how rigid someone could be dressed this way...)

This leads me to the last part, ILI (and this is also where some of you could get mad at me, because as you'll see, I'm going back to my initial guess...like if I knew the answer before asking you... but I told you, even if not clearly, that I was hesitating between IEI and EII)

Well how to put it simply: I'm currently with an ILI girl and also have an ILI close friend, and hell do we look alike each others for sure. But I'm under the impression that:
1) my F expressions are not what they are after and can even annoy them easily (find me silly, or too emotive) and same as with IEE, I must really stroke them in the good direction if I expect them to share their feelings, and when they do it's only once and you better catch it at the right time because afterwards it's gone. Still I'm able to impress them intellectually and hence they see me as "worthy"
2) I tend to take people into account way more than they do (it's secondary for them) so I feel like they both step on others shoes and I kinda dislike that behaviour (way more apparent for my friend than for my girl though, as she's much more balanced than he is)

I know this represent too few samples to draw any conclusion, but this is all I got and the only persons who feel safe about their type around me (well I typed many other friends and acquaintances but don't feel safe enough using them as examples). My judgment might also be tainted (and surely is indeed) by the intertype descriptions I read when I considered IEI in the first place, as we all try to see what we want to see isn't it?

So the final question is why am I not satisfied with IEI? And how could I hesitate on the j/p characteristic? Well, mostly because I initially typed MBTI:INFJ but then was overly confused when switching to socionics (even read people saying j/p switch should not take place) and also because INFj +/- and description on socionics.com as well as psychotypes.com made me hesitate a lot...But stereotypes are what they are, and I agree we should be able to determine my type by examining my functional preferences instead.

Long read, I hope I didn't lose you all in the process... !

[KeroZen]

Ha! Re-read my post and the "dialectical-algorithmic thinker" remark above...don't forget it's my job and I've been raised and trained for this.

My mother is a doctor in law and when I had contacts with my father, he was in IT management and the like...also many doctors in family, including a doctor in pharmaceutical biology, a doctor in psychiatry, a psy cousin and many other very serious people...bwah!...

To the exception of my aunt, who I happen to love a lot, as she's different from the rest of the pack (crazy "gitane" smoker and alcohol lover, but also a really caring and "human" person, compared to the others who are so judgmental..)

I feel like she's the only one able to see that particular part of me that the rest of the family seem so scared about...and that I'm unable to share with most of them...

But no, I didn't dare trying to type any of them....yet....

[Aiss]

Yeah, I see your points for F. I was sleep deprived yesterday fwiw, should have pointed out EIEs are dialectical-algorithmic thinkers too. That being said, I can see different types for now so no opinion from me.

[KeroZen]

Random detail:

When someone asks me "how are you doing?", I always have to make a short pause and think about it before answering. Not that I don't know my current mood, but I must consciously direct "the camera" towards myself and ask what the recent relevant events in my life were, and how I should feel about that (or at least, what I should be supposed to answer and reveal about that)

[KeroZen]

About hidden agendas:

I like to think that any function can generate its own hidden agenda in its way. I'm not sure to understand if people readily acknowledge them or not, though.

In order to get people admit their main HA, I found that turning the question into "what would affect you the most (i.e make you sad) if you were deprived of it or if you couldn't have if for the rest of your life?" yielded rather good results thus far, but I didn't test enough persons to be sure at this point.

Here's how I feel about the 8 agendas (it's surely significant for my own typing):

1) to be loved - hm of course I like that some people love me, but if I had to be deprived of it, I would surely find happiness elsewhere with other aspects of life.. and even if people don't love me, as long as I'm not rejected by the society I could handle that

2) to be healthy - for this one I have doubts...of course I don't want to be sick, but I already don't have a very strong constitution and I tend to think that I'll die of some weird illness at some point anyways... don't really see myself living too old, but I could change my mind (and surely will lol!) But even if I made a lot of progress, managing my health and listening to my body needs is clearly one of my weaknesses

3) to be perfect - I don't care about that, there is no perfection.. in fact everything in Nature seems "perfect" already for me, and everything made by Mankind is always many levels of magnitude less complex than what's in our Universe.. I acknowledge the quest of perfection in the sense that one should tend in that direction for personal growth, but I don't want to be nor expect other people to be perfect, no thanks!

4) to understand - This is the HA I readily acknowledge, but I'm not ashamed of it (whereas with #2-to be healthy, it could be an HA but one that I would tend to keep for myself, more like an unconscious fear) What I would hate to lose the most: being not able to understand, or dying before attaining "wisdom" (because for me, becoming wise involves understanding things) And I'm pretty sure I'm chasing illusions here don't worry for me, but until I lay on my death-bed, I'll keep trying to understand (me? the universe? the purpose of it all?) and the best possible ending for me would be to have the "ultimate eureka!" one instant before passing away, leaving me with a big grin on my face!

5) to be wealthy - I can bare with strict minimum and harsh environments, I'm able to take pleasure out of very simple things... Of course I like to have my senses pleased, so this implies having a "wealth" of external stimuli, which one usually gets when being wealthy financially speaking. But that's not something I'm after, more something that I reject in others in fact, when I get the impression it's their only goal in life whereas I think it's secondary.

6) to believe - no problem with that, I got faith, not of a religious kind, but faith in life, faith there could be more than what we know at the present time too...

7) to know - for me it's less a problem when I'm accused of not knowing (you didn't know?!!) than when I'm accused of not understanding (you didn't understand?!!) as facts can be forgotten, but if you don't understand, you're a moron! (joking here, I hope nobody takes what I say personally)

8) to love - I'm pretty confident I'll love life until the very end, I'll be able to enjoy things and love other people...But to be fair, I would hate if someone suppressed this ability in me, and if someone told me "from now on you'll never be able to love anything or anyone", I would be really sad and I don't know if life would make sense anymore.

When weighting between 8, 4 and 2 (the only three that tick something in me) I'm unsure what I would hate to lose the most... It's like the reverse mermaid question:

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l4...9afqo1_500.jpg

[Aiss]

Hidden agenda is hidden.

Or rather, something most people don't admit to readily, in some cases even to themselves, but it works as a very real motivation to them. Also recommended for balancing out Ganin is Pathetic HA - Wikisocion .

[KeroZen]

Thank you for this link, I wasn't indeed aware of this aspect but I knew Ganin's view on this should be taken with a grain of salt or two.

By the read of this:

- I can tell people what's healthy or not for them but never take me as an example to follow, because I'm not a saint either ()

- I'm often told I sound too certain and assertive when speaking to people, and when accused of doing so, I'm surprised because in fact I have no certitude and tend to doubt about things, hence I'm persuaded that my tone has been misunderstood ()

- I can be a bit stiff on my own ethics and principles, but it's on a case by case basis, some I can compromise some I can't. But I'm very tolerant of others ethics if they are different than mine, I can even embrace them if I find them better than mine sometimes, and I can acknowledge when I'm wrong myself. Still, it could apply ()

All the others don't ring a bell at all for me, but I swear I envisioned them all.

PS: what's wrong with some smileys and avatar pics? Is this a problem on my client side or are others experiencing the same?

[KeroZen]

Also if HA is hidden, you imply I shouldn't be confident talking about it (hence suggesting "to be healthy" because it's the most unconscious of the lot that I still recognize?)

But if we follow my hypothesis about me having to develop a strong T, couldn't it be possible that I have a better insight of my needs?

I know there's something apparently wrong with me identifying to IEI, on a behavioral and on a theoretical basis. IEI has Ti-PoLR but I'm way too logical/algorithmic and I work clearly in ILI and LII domains (sorry for the gross generalization I know it's wrong but it's just a shortcut)

[KeroZen]

Meanwhile...

I kept reading and reading, followed many possible type paths, tried to forget what I believed...I projected myself in many of them with the descriptions...then re-read a lot about functions and tried to analyse it logically...tried to match with my relationships with close friends...

It appears people see me often as ILI/INTp and I have so much in common for sure, it's clearly a candidate. But in my heart I feel different (or maybe I wish I was different?)

I share a lot with EII/INFj, many many details in descriptions are spot-on, it could apply.

I also share a lot with EIE/ENFj and even test EIE when I push myself in a positive and confident mood when answering the questions (like "don't be too harsh with yourself, see your positive aspects") that's also a candidate. Maybe I'm just depressed lately and that could be me instead. Unfortunately choosing this path doesn't fit at all with my inter-type relations...

Then needless to say that I identified myself with IEI the most, the one that falls right in the middle of the "cross"...

Down to 4 likely possibilities, as other types are way too far from me.

------------------

Some test results when I was in said "positive mood":

Socionics - Socionics test

ENFJ(Hamlet) - 235
ENFP(Huxley) - 220
INFP(Yesenin) - 205
INFJ(Dostoyevsky) - 205

ESFJ(Hugo) - 195
ISFP(Dumas) - 185
INTJ(Robespierre) - 180
ENTP(Don Quixote) - 180
ENTJ(Jack London) - 175
ISFJ(Dreiser) - 165
INTP(Balzac) - 160
ESFP(Napoleon) - 160
ESTP(Zhukov) - 140
ISTP(Gabin) - 120
ISTJ(Maxim Gorky) - 120
ESTJ(Stirlitz) - 75

---

Socionics Test: Determine Your Sociotype

Sociotype: EIE/ENFj

Other Possible Types

IEI (85% as likely as EIE)
ILI (77% as likely as EIE)
EII (71% as likely as EIE)

[golden]

Heh. I'm surprised no one has asked you to post photos of yourself for VI yet. It might not help, but then again, sometimes it's not just a dead end. You can always delete the pix after people have had a chance to look them over.

[KeroZen]

Cherry on the cake...

It happens I just argued with some relatives a few days ago, then a close friend took that very instant to reproach me the exact same thing that led to the initial argument...and told me it was a rather consistent behaviour in me, not a one time thing... and that he loved me and all, but I really annoyed him with that way of acting...

Then today I asked my mother about the pathetic HA and what was in her eyes my worst problem... Believe it or not, one minute before opening the subject, she already told me for another thing I said "don't be too systematic"...Then I made her read the pathetic HA page, and she told me "you know the answer, you are not what I would call stubborn, but you are inflexible with your ideas, but don't worry it's going to get better with age, I used to be like you...."

-> HA -> I sound like an assertive self-confident moron...aka INFp

[golden]

Hey, KeroZen. I'm going to ask for your thread to be moved to some other subforum where it will get wider attention than it'll receive in the Beta thread. A lot of users who are very good at typing people probably won't spend time in a quadra forum other than their own. So hold tight and don't delete your photos yet, okay?

[Creepy-bg]

@KeroZen, do you want this thread moved to someplace where the wider forum will read it?

[yellow82]

You look like an ISTj to me - just saying.

[KeroZen]

Ok no problem for moving thread but I must tell you something... I was in a hurry to be certain about my type because I had a date with a girl tonight....

As IEI was my hypothesis for a while already, I was in the process of debunking SLE everywhere I could find them and I met this particular girl...

I thought, if I'm EII and she's really SLE, then I should spot the conflicting relation easily, and if I'm ILI, well it would be a bit harder... but I had to attempt something...

Well... wow...wow...wow...

We spent 5 hours tonight discussing psychology and socionics, I never had to adapt my speech or behaviour, we understood each others so well.. She tests as SLE (even if her first guess was ESFp, as she's not really aware she's very rational in her way of thinking, she thinks she's very emotional, but people keep telling her she's not girly (even a bit manly at times lol) and she does analyze and rationalize her feelings)

And wow... she needs and love my Ni and Fe so much, no doubt about that (she told me how relations with Fi types were lacking something for her) and I could see so much how her optimism, will power and pragmatism could help me out! And at least, someone who doesn't reject my Fe or find that "silly" or "false"...She's very physical, kept touching me and my arms and hands when speaking, I love that, being tactile myself too...

She instantly felt how torn and tortured I was inside, but told me it was something she was after (doesn't like perfect or too easy guys) and that she likes being in some kind of "maternal" or protective position...

This plus the above posts and associated reflections make me feel pretty confident about IEI as my type (my initial guess and initial test result), and when I left her and got home I was so happy but also felt so empty...

Of course, situation is ironic (I think I'm cursed one way or the other, maybe I did bad things in a previous life...) because:

1) she's got the male role and me the woman one...
2) she's leaving to Africa in January for a 6 months mission (she's in air army....) and she doesn't want to even think about having a relation (other than pure sex) before leaving (and afterwards, who knows, she hopes to meet a beautiful young pilot...)

[Aiss]

Okay, seems you're out of what's-my-type phase, straight to live-my-type phase. Once you're done with that, we'll see if you keep it.

[KeroZen]

Aiss: of course I see your point, "been there done that" heh? You've surely watched tons of people identifying to one type, then changing their mind...etc.. (I personally don't think type can change, and it's the current consensus and a completely off-topic subject)

What's not obvious by reading my posts (even when excluding the fact than I'm an adult, and furthermore a very analytical person surrounded by even more analytical persons, and hence surely know myself better than the average teenager joining this forum) :

- When I said I've been studying socionics for some time (and again I'm in no way an expert) I'm not talking about a couple of months, but rather several years (even if it was very gradual... had to pass trough many acceptation and understanding steps/stages..I'll try to write something about that if I find the time) To the point that in my surroundings, friends tell me I'm crazy with my f***ing test and should really take a break, because it all sounds like some kind of sect or worse! (brain parasite anyone?)

- Since my first post here, I spent countless hours (nights?) reading and learning more about the theories, talked with countless friends and even family... I wasn't waiting because I had to know before this date, or this wouldn't have made sense at all. So I did my homework I think.

- I tried to sound the least biased from my very first post, hoping I wouldn't influence your opinions in a wrong way, but I identified from day one to IEI. I *really* tried to envision all other types, and told you the ones that could match (when considering stereotypes descriptions only) those are: ILI, IEI, EIE, EII and ILE. Although they all have many matching elements and details, the only two I have a "gut feeling" for are IEI and EII. All other types always have something in their description where I say "hm no, that's not me at all", whereas for those two I only can say "well maybe, but not me or not that I'm aware of". ILI is a bit in the middle, as to how I feel about it.

- My N is so obvious it's even painful both for me and my surroundings, no S type description apply, period. If anybody still need a proof of that, I dare them to conceptualize, design and implement a real-time digital audio signal processing software of professional quality and rather high complexity (over 300k lines of code, and counting), from scratch, and essentially alone... (I'm not bragging don't get me wrong, just a concrete example)

- I also tried to analyze it all by functions use, in a more rational and scientific way (well, we can only go thus far but not much more... as we're still dealing with the mind and cognitive processes which are abstract by nature) From that it's obvious I'm Ni Fe. My Fe annoys all my Fi friends, it's like Fi persons consider Fe as inferior to Fi. As if Fe was of a lesser quality and less sincere for them (hell yeah we have instantaneous feelings and keep expressing them, it's very annoying for NT and NF types around me having Fi in their weak functions)

- In fact everything was fine with IEI for me, excepted something that always contradicts it all and make me start from zero again, blaming myself for surely understanding something wrong:

"What I see in practice with "positively" typed friends (always use quotes) contradicts the socionics function order and matches the MBTI one much more."

Explanation: taking IEI as example...
- In socionics I'm (conscious functions) Ni Fe Si Te - that is two introverted inputs, two extroverted outputs, making me very unbalanced (but from an information processing vector point of view, this makes sense)
- In MBTI I'm (conscious functions) Ni Fe Ti Se - that is one input of each quality and one output of each quality, looks way more balanced to fight for survival no? Also notice Ti in #3 which would make it less weak than my socionics Te in #4 (which contradicts both my strong logical/rational side and apparent behaviour...hell it's supposed to be my weakest point but I feel S is my weakest point)

Now look at my dual, SLE: it's clearly easier to make people understand why duality works with MBTI function order: she would be Se Ti Fe Ni, exact inverse of me, with same qualities, no fight, complete comprehension without translation. Now socionics has to explain that with cross links with your shadow functions, it makes sense but is more complex to explain.

Second detail: my dual should be Fi in socionics, wereas with my date from yesterday we clearly agreed we have the same kind of F (Fe in my eyes) discussing it in lenght (we both for instance say "oh this thing is nice" rather than "I find this thing nice"...we both have instantaneous feeling outburst directed to the external world etc) Sounds like she isn't my dual in socionics or I mistyped her (I'm so naive you know)? Wait!

My associate who is ENTj should have Fe, whereas he clearly appears Fi and even feels like it. And he happened to be there and he knows that supposed SLE girl better than me and told "no way, she's clearly Fe, because I'm Fi and we are so different on this point it's so obvious"...Again, he's surely mistyped? But wait...why can I say the same with every one around me, are we all mistyped?!!....

So it's SYSTEMATICALLY like this since the beginning, it all matches until I try to rationalize and the socionics function order doesn't work and ruins EVERYTHING! Ha, one moment, my intuition is ringing, someone's going to say: "this is because functions are not defined in the same way in both systems, you are doing it wrong, read more about function descriptions in wikisocion"... Alright, I did, but unless one defines "conscious" and "unconscious" (aka shadow) in a different way, one ordering is wrong.

Apart from that, the rest is spot on with IEI, for all aspects.

Ah, and if it's not obvious already (everyone's asleep?) I'm really fluent with my writing skills and didn't force myself to write those lengthy posts...in fact I had to restrain from making them any longer. I think I express myself in this form better than speaking.

[KeroZen]

@Bionicgoat: of course, please do move this thread you have my acknowledgment, as I said, the more exposure it gets the more opinions I'll get.

[KeroZen]

@Yellow82: alright ISTj is perhaps the only S type description that has similarities with me, but I don't rationalize my feelings I'm afraid. I feel then I try to rationalize down, but I'm rarely able to (for instance if something is really on my heart, it can even have an impact on my life and work until it's fixed, whereas I know I should separate it all: first work then think about what you feel later when it's the correct time...in practice this requires me a lot of efforts)

[Exodus]

Kero, you should try to describe yourself without using socionics or MBTI terminology. If you can't do that, the accuracy of your typing will be seriously affected. I can't really form an opinion based on what you've said, because it's so far removed from describing you as a person.

"When someone asks me "how are you doing?", I always have to make a short pause and think about it before answering. Not that I don't know my current mood, but I must consciously direct "the camera" towards myself and ask what the recent relevant events in my life were, and how I should feel about that (or at least, what I should be supposed to answer and reveal about that)"

Hm, this is something I identify with. It could suggest weak ethics.

[KeroZen]

thehotelambush: Hi!

What you say is very contradictory because on one side I'm told stereotypes descriptions are just good to assert type after being tested, because they describe apparent behaviors whereas doing this is already an extrapolation and is very dangerous (see how MBTI ended, focused on career management and human resources etc)!

The theory seems valid only from the functionnal/cognitive process point of view, as (thanks God or who knows else) you always will find examples of people doing things in their lives that their type shouldn't be normally inclined to do. If I'm IEI then I'm a good example of someone who should have worked in social areas instead of sofware where ILI abound.

Also some people tell me that the only way to be sure is to look at the functions level (and it's clear stereotypes descriptions have well defined overlaps so people will always find a bit of themselves in many of them, and even more when they are overly optimistic or politically correct like Keirsey's ones)

So I'm asking you how should I proceed if I can't talk in terms of perceived functions use and if on the other hand I'm a reserved person and won't talk or reveal much more to strangers about my personal life than what I already did (and almost consider to be too much, but it's part of the game)...

And the way I talk is the way I think. So if it doesn't describe me as a person, what will? Behavior details? I'm sorry if the way I sound doesn't sound very personal, but it's the way I am and the way I analyze everything in life including myself (remember what I say about my bloody N analyzer I can't switch off? that's it)

Last point: when I say I feel, I say I feel/perceive. Don't think I'm talking in MBTI-FEELING terms all the time!

[Exodus]

thehotelambush: Hi!

What you say is very contradictory because on one side I'm told stereotypes descriptions are just good to assert type after being tested, because they describe apparent behaviors whereas doing this is already an extrapolation and is very dangerous (see how MBTI ended, focused on career management and human resources etc)!

The theory seems valid only from the functionnal/cognitive process point of view, as (thanks God or who knows else) you always will find examples of people doing things in their lives that their type shouldn't be normally inclined to do. If I'm IEI then I'm a good example of someone who should have worked in social areas instead of sofware where ILI abound.

From a socionics point of view, a broad career choice like this is pretty poor evidence for your type. What's important is your motivation for choosing your career, etc.

So I'm asking you how should I proceed if I can't talk in terms of perceived functions use and if on the other hand I'm a reserved person and won't talk or reveal much more to strangers about my personal life than what I already did (and almost consider to be too much, but it's part of the game)...

And the way I talk is the way I think. So if it doesn't describe me as a person, what will? Behavior details? I'm sorry if the way I sound doesn't sound very personal, but it's the way I am and the way I analyze everything in life including myself (remember what I say about my bloody N analyzer I can't switch off? that's it)

Well, "analyzing" things could mean anything in socionics. It could be , it could be , it could be any function, depending on what you mean by it.

Saying something like "well, I use in situation X but I use in situation Y" doesn't make me any more able to figure out your type than you. The reason for posting a thread here is so that people who are more familiar with what the information elements mean can apply them to your actual personality traits, behavior, and motivation, etc.

That said, it's definitely possible to type someone just based on how they're communicating and acting. Based on that (plus VI) I think you're LSI. Thus, I would attribute "analyzing" to . Also, you say "Of course I like to have my senses pleased, so this implies having a "wealth" of external stimuli, which one usually gets when being wealthy financially speaking. But that's not something I'm after, more something that I reject in others in fact, when I get the impression it's their only goal in life whereas I think it's secondary." This would be a perfect description of how the creative function manifests. In fact, all your other reactions to the supposed "hidden agenda" associated with each element perfectly describe valuing Ti and Fe over Se and Ni over the rest of the elements.

[Aiss]

- When I said I've been studying socionics for some time (and again I'm in no way an expert) I'm not talking about a couple of months, but rather several years (even if it was very gradual... had to pass trough many acceptation and understanding steps/stages..I'll try to write something about that if I find the time) To the point that in my surroundings, friends tell me I'm crazy with my f***ing test and should really take a break, because it all sounds like some kind of sect or worse! (brain parasite anyone?)

I have seen people like that, too. *nods wisely* Oddly enough, some of them still find they're mistyped after all this time.

- Since my first post here, I spent countless hours (nights?) reading and learning more about the theories, talked with countless friends and even family... I wasn't waiting because I had to know before this date, or this wouldn't have made sense at all. So I did my homework I think.

See, while obsession itself isn't type related - aren't we all addicts - IEIs seem strangely impartial to reading through sources. Most of the time, and it doesn't prove anything.

- I tried to sound the least biased from my very first post, hoping I wouldn't influence your opinions in a wrong way, but I identified from day one to IEI. I *really* tried to envision all other types, and told you the ones that could match (when considering stereotypes descriptions only) those are: ILI, IEI, EIE, EII and ILE. Although they all have many matching elements and details, the only two I have a "gut feeling" for are IEI and EII. All other types always have something in their description where I say "hm no, that's not me at all", whereas for those two I only can say "well maybe, but not me or not that I'm aware of". ILI is a bit in the middle, as to how I feel about it.

Yeah, descriptions suck.

- My N is so obvious it's even painful both for me and my surroundings, no S type description apply, period. If anybody still need a proof of that, I dare them to conceptualize, design and implement a real-time digital audio signal processing software of professional quality and rather high complexity (over 300k lines of code, and counting), from scratch, and essentially alone... (I'm not bragging don't get me wrong, just a concrete example)

That's the first thing you've posted that seriously has me questioning N for you, to be honest.

- I also tried to analyze it all by functions use, in a more rational and scientific way (well, we can only go thus far but not much more... as we're still dealing with the mind and cognitive processes which are abstract by nature) From that it's obvious I'm Ni Fe. My Fe annoys all my Fi friends, it's like Fi persons consider Fe as inferior to Fi. As if Fe was of a lesser quality and less sincere for them (hell yeah we have instantaneous feelings and keep expressing them, it's very annoying for NT and NF types around me having Fi in their weak functions)

- In fact everything was fine with IEI for me, excepted something that always contradicts it all and make me start from zero again, blaming myself for surely understanding something wrong:

"What I see in practice with "positively" typed friends (always use quotes) contradicts the socionics function order and matches the MBTI one much more."

Explanation: taking IEI as example...
- In socionics I'm (conscious functions) Ni Fe Si Te - that is two introverted inputs, two extroverted outputs, making me very unbalanced (but from an information processing vector point of view, this makes sense)
- In MBTI I'm (conscious functions) Ni Fe Ti Se - that is one input of each quality and one output of each quality, looks way more balanced to fight for survival no? Also notice Ti in #3 which would make it less weak than my socionics Te in #4 (which contradicts both my strong logical/rational side and apparent behaviour...hell it's supposed to be my weakest point but I feel S is my weakest point)

Now look at my dual, SLE: it's clearly easier to make people understand why duality works with MBTI function order: she would be Se Ti Fe Ni, exact inverse of me, with same qualities, no fight, complete comprehension without translation. Now socionics has to explain that with cross links with your shadow functions, it makes sense but is more complex to explain.

I was going to address what you bring up here, not the least pointing out that IEI's Ti is stronger than Te, but the bolded part pretty much made me realize it isn't worth it. If you're going to hold onto MBTIsh ideas of "shadow functions" and apply them to half of model A, regardless of its imperfections, you're probably better off with that system, seriously. Or you might want to find out what valued elements are, before dismissing them.

So it's SYSTEMATICALLY like this since the beginning, it all matches until I try to rationalize and the socionics function order doesn't work and ruins EVERYTHING! Ha, one moment, my intuition is ringing, someone's going to say: "this is because functions are not defined in the same way in both systems, you are doing it wrong, read more about function descriptions in wikisocion"... Alright, I did, but unless one defines "conscious" and "unconscious" (aka shadow) in a different way, one ordering is wrong.

Of course it is. It makes no sense for irrational dominant person to be branded rational and the reverse, if they're introverted. Makes people reinterpret either functions or dichotomies, or both, to make it work for themselves, then it clashes with others' reinterpretations and you get the conflicted MBTI community.

[silverchris9]

@Yellow82: alright ISTj is perhaps the only S type description that has similarities with me, but I don't rationalize my feelings I'm afraid. I feel then I try to rationalize down, but I'm rarely able to (for instance if something is really on my heart, it can even have an impact on my life and work until it's fixed, whereas I know I should separate it all: first work then think about what you feel later when it's the correct time...in practice this requires me a lot of efforts)

Ugh, me too. Welcome to the IEI club.

[Azeroffs]

My first impression from your first post was ENTp or maybe ENTj.. reading everything else just confused me

[KeroZen]

Hey folks!

I don't really have time to answer you in details tonight but I wanted to direct you to a post I just did in the SLOAN thread, which I hope will clarify my current point of view (but which also I'm afraid will be even more revealing about my type...or not? who knows!)

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post715419

[KeroZen]

Also I can sound like a smart-ass whereas I'm really more a sweetheart, but again it's because I learned to sound like a smart-ass, surrounded by even smarter asses than me (family, studies, work, even friends)

I don't see myself as smart, I'm intelligent, prolly a bit over average IQ but I'm under the impression I made it so far almost entirely due to my intuition.

So when reading above that my remark was perceived as the contrary of N (or anti N) you must know that I almost didn't want to put it there seeing how obvious it is for me, so obvious I felt silly even losing time justifying myself. Spend 5 minutes with me in real life and you would be fixed.

But now that it's done, I feel obliged to explain why the system-conceptualization-and-design-from-scratch was an example of Ni.

My analyzer: I see inside objects, structures, parts, forces, then instantly project into possible evolutions, modifications, improvements, then switch back in past looking for patterns in history having led to their realization. I can see external patterns and repetitions easily in external world BUT I'm more interested in trends of said patterns, patterns in patterns, patterns in time.

This example was me discovering a new object. I won't describe how I analyze people or you'll be scared and never talk to me again.

As for my software example, for those who don't know, writing a software is essentially the same as writing a book (furthermore it's covered by exact same intellectual property laws here in France, sourcecode == artistic work == book)

Why? Because there is no single way to express a program. You can write efficient but ugly and cryptic code, you can write beautiful code, there is even a clear notion of code "elegance", as you are expressing your thoughts in machine language form.

So this involves thinking in machine terms already, but that's fine. Then you have a blank sheet of paper in front of you, and the product doesn't even exist, you just had an idea "if I could do a program that would be useful for task T".

Now I'm not sure a non-coder could imagine the amount of inter-wound levels of mental abstraction required to project oneself mentally, imagining what the outcome (virtual) of a yet to be written (virtual) software (virtual and expressed in machine language) will be.

You must conceptualize something that even when written and executed will never ever be tangible and will only exist temporarily in your computer RAM...

I study systems since I'm a kid, but I'm more attracted to natural sciences, human sciences, botanic (I got a nice orchids collection along other weird specimens) I owned and studied many "weird" animals like ants and other insects lol (but don't worry I'm over with that haha no more creepy fellows!)

I love to see how thing evolves, envision alternative scenarios...can be very fantasist and like to day dream, especially when relaxing.

What else? I got mood swings, not very self confident even if obviously more than capable...

Gotta go!

[KeroZen]

Pursuing the LSI/ISTj path:

For what it's worth, here are my views on ISTj +/- here: ISTj [+] and [-]

1) You are excellent at the detailed, meticulous and careful study of any situation. YES

2) You are a disciplined and responsible person and do not like to waste your words -> I'm responsible, but undisciplined (would define myself as chaotic good from an RPG point of view...tcaudilllg please leave my head!!!!) but hell no I don't spare my words at all, maybe my average post word count should be a sufficient proof

3) You aspire to have everything ordered and well organised both at home and at work. You have respect for authority and feel perfectly comfortable obeying established norms and rules. -> No no no I'm a filthy chaotic rebel, I bash norms and rules to see if they crack or not (but I'm more than aware of ethical rules and norms of politeness, well manners etc) and my crowded room might seem ordered but only because I lived with enough members of the opposite sex to know the limit of what's acceptable...

4) You do not like any form of disorganisation and irresponsibility. -> Same, I don't care and to the contrary I prefer to live on the edge, I dislike people wasting their capacities though

5) You are persistent and persevering when working towards your goals. You know well how to practically utilise reference material. YES

6) You are a good administrator and always make sure that your instructions and plans are carried out to your specifications -> Hm I really prefer making plans than knowing how they are implemented... plus in my domain you rarely or never reach the initial specifications...more so specifications must be dynamic in my eyes (agile programming methods etc ie. adapting to situation in real-time)

7) You do not compromise when it comes to fulfilling your duties. You can impose discipline on to others especially those who do not fulfil their duties. -> I share the will power for sure, but the rest is not me, not that I can't be a leader, but when I am it's not through discipline, more through mentoring/coaching.

CONS:

1) You often have difficulties in maintaining even, stable relations with people -> Relations evolve with time, I don't expect them to be stable, but on the contrary, I have problems breaking old relations even when I don't get any benefit out of them or worse when they are a weight, because there's always a part of me that hopes the person change or something...

2) You are given to sudden, rough changes in attitude, one moment being kind and delicate, the next being tactless and pushy. -> No, never tactless, unless I want to hurt someone on purpose, which I rarely do because usually I tend to go a bit too far as I know how to hurt the person deep inside their heart. It's the evil me I chose not to use on purpose, like a secret weapon that is over powerful but also burns yourself a bit every time you use it.

3) You also have a tendency to appear unrestrained and even rough when in the company of people you know well -> I wouldn't say rough at all, but I can be unrestrained in nagging and joking with super close friends

4) Sometimes you can be obtrusive with your problems. You often lack confidence in situations that require the breaking of old methods, especially if there is no clear proof of the reliability of the new method. -> obtrusive I wouldn't say but obsessive perhaps. The rest is the contrary of me. I'm all for novelty and breaking old methods. Constant improvement but also dropping useless things in the process.

5) You can be suspicious to new ideas and propositions that may require an alternative way of dealing with things. In these cases you can become confused, overwhelmed and disorientated. -> Haha no, it's where I thrive.


RESULT 2/10

[Aiss]

So when reading above that my remark was perceived as the contrary of N (or anti N) you must know that I almost didn't want to put it there seeing how obvious it is for me, so obvious I felt silly even losing time justifying myself. Spend 5 minutes with me in real life and you would be fixed.

But now that it's done, I feel obliged to explain why the system-conceptualization-and-design-from-scratch was an example of Ni.

My analyzer: I see inside objects, structures, parts, forces, then instantly project into possible evolutions, modifications, improvements, then switch back in past looking for patterns in history having led to their realization. I can see external patterns and repetitions easily in external world BUT I'm more interested in trends of said patterns, patterns in patterns, patterns in time.

This example was me discovering a new object. I won't describe how I analyze people or you'll be scared and never talk to me again.

As for my software example, for those who don't know, writing a software is essentially the same as writing a book (furthermore it's covered by exact same intellectual property laws here in France, sourcecode == artistic work == book)

Why? Because there is no single way to express a program. You can write efficient but ugly and cryptic code, you can write beautiful code, there is even a clear notion of code "elegance", as you are expressing your thoughts in machine language form.

So this involves thinking in machine terms already, but that's fine. Then you have a blank sheet of paper in front of you, and the product doesn't even exist, you just had an idea "if I could do a program that would be useful for task T".

Now I'm not sure a non-coder could imagine the amount of inter-wound levels of mental abstraction required to project oneself mentally, imagining what the outcome (virtual) of a yet to be written (virtual) software (virtual and expressed in machine language) will be.

You must conceptualize something that even when written and executed will never ever be tangible and will only exist temporarily in your computer RAM...

I study systems since I'm a kid, but I'm more attracted to natural sciences, human sciences, botanic (I got a nice orchids collection along other weird specimens) I owned and studied many "weird" animals like ants and other insects lol (but don't worry I'm over with that haha no more creepy fellows!)

I love to see how thing evolves, envision alternative scenarios...can be very fantasist and like to day dream, especially when relaxing.

What else? I got mood swings, not very self confident even if obviously more than capable...

Gotta go!

Writing fiction is easier.

The main thing I had issues with was "(over 300k lines of code, and counting), from scratch, and essentially alone...". Average Ni-dominant left alone wouldn't have gotten beyond like 3k without some kind of external motivation - I suppose it was my assumption that you didn't have any; did you? and it also depends on language, but I imagine it isn't some bloat like Java considering the use - at least as I understand Ni/Se. Well, maybe ILI-Te would manage a bit more. Don't get me wrong, I can get involved in something and go on like crazy (like socionics, without looking too far), but most things become work rather quickly, and then there needs to be a rewarding goal. In my experience so far, "satisfaction from getting things done" that others talk about isn't one for Ips. And they clearly work in bursts, perseverence or patience are weak points. I wouldn't be surprised if you turned out an Extrovert and/or Rational.

[Blaze]

reading your first post you seem ILE.

the toughest thing about socionics is owning your weaknesses, not identifying your strengths. read some of the polrs....whichever one gives you the biggest twinge of shame=good bet that points directly to your type.

good luck.

[KeroZen]

Aiss, Blaze, thank you for your support, your help is much appreciated and valued.

I hope in return that you appreciate my good will and mind-openness, as I really play the game, following all your propositions the most seriously I can (i.e. trying to forget everything I know before reading more about a particular type, and pushing myself into a "from now on I'm this type" mind; and I check against my known inter-type relations too)

I hope it's also clear from reading my SLOAN thread rant about the j/p switch that I do know pretty well the differences between MBTI and socionics (even if minute details are still to be clarified) meaning when I'm answering in this thread (and in general on this forum) I'm talking in socionics terms only and referring to socionics material only.

It should also be made clear that I don't need to be converted to socionics as I already am, nor do you need to chase the MBTI witch out of my head in exchange (I'm able to cope with plurality fine, don't worry for me)

Also perhaps not evident from the reading of it all: all friends and relative types I'm talking about are socionics ones. I said "always use quotes" because I'm being modest, but I made them pass at least 5 socionics test each and they were really happy to participate (so no bad will here) and all were pretty fine with their results (and as I helped in the typing process everytime, by asking loads of extra questions to challenge the results, I do feel confident about their types)

Quotes were for the style, to remind us to be humble and not too assertive.

Because as seen in my "blotch" rant in SLOAN thread, and from the light of reading any forum on the interwebz, many questions are still open and recurrent (but I didn't read answers yet so perhaps I'm wrong and someone pointed me to the truth for that debated example while I was asleep...)

I'm coming back to you soon to discuss the ILI-Te and ILE hypothesis in depth.