Ti Hidden Agenda of INFps and ISFps

[Creepy-male]

Is it at all related to interest in strange codes and systems, conspiracy theories, secret societies and the like.

I'm thinking the fascination with Ti in Ti-HA produces the sense in these types that life has an underlying code or system to it, this produces a fascination with secrete societies, conspiracy theories, and secret codes, alchemy, and bible codes.

Usually Ti-ego type, while they have looked into these things, usually base their conclusions off of some measure of logical facts and inquiry. Trying to synthesize their ideas with logical to lend some credibility to their suggestions.

However in Ti-HA types, Te would be the PoLR and therefore, there fascination would not be bounded by the need to have actual facts to back up their ideas.

Finally Ti-HA types are feeling perceiving types, so likely they would base their ideas about conspiracies and secrete societies and symbols off of their feelings of things rather than off of factual information proving the existence of these secret societies. Their existence is merely "felt".

Ex) People are well connected in power, therefore there must be some secret society they are a part of, I've heard of people in power being part of organizations such as skull and bones, therefore there is a secretive power structure hidden form people. I don't need to factual prove its existence, I'm solely convinced off of my feelings on the matter that those in power are part of a secret society plotting to take over the world. ETC ETC ETC

[DividedsGhost]

This is what I've come to realize Ti-HA is. It seems like it just attempts to find a reason. It's a little unsettling at times, but I guess that's how it is.

[humblepie]

Is it at all related to interest in strange codes and systems, conspiracy theories, secret societies and the like.

I'm thinking the fascination with Ti in Ti-HA produces the sense in these types that life has an underlying code or system to it, this produces a fascination with secrete societies, conspiracy theories, and secret codes, alchemy, and bible codes.

Usually Ti-ego type, while they have looked into these things, usually base their conclusions off of some measure of logical facts and inquiry. Trying to synthesize their ideas with logical to lend some credibility to their suggestions.

However in Ti-HA types, Te would be the PoLR and therefore, there fascination would not be bounded by the need to have actual facts to back up their ideas.

Finally Ti-HA types are feeling perceiving types, so likely they would base their ideas about conspiracies and secrete societies and symbols off of their feelings of things rather than off of factual information proving the existence of these secret societies. Their existence is merely "felt".

Ex) People are well connected in power, therefore there must be some secret society they are a part of, I've heard of people in power being part of organizations such as skull and bones, therefore there is a secretive power structure hidden form people. I don't need to factual prove its existence, I'm solely convinced off of my feelings on the matter that those in power are part of a secret society plotting to take over the world. ETC ETC ETC

can you explain what a Ti ego type is and what a Ti hidden agenda type is. i find what you said really interesting but i don't know which types you mean. sorry for my laziness but it would be better if you explained it so i know exactly what you are talking about.

[717495]

Te-PoLRs definitely consider the facts and put a great amount of weight into having references to back up their ideas. This is how I think Ti-HA manifests, compensating for the lack of incompetence in a certain field, to the point of either a) repressing the existence of new knowledge due to under-confidence, or what they normally strive for b) showing how much they know, being well read and stating the facts and the sources, and casually deflecting all negative questions directed toward them about their education or understanding, in order to divert their weaknesses from others.

[ArchonAlarion]

I think Nick (strrrng) is a good example. Not to say he isn't intelligent or well read (he certainly is), but I feel as though he throws impressive evidence and erudition around to compensate for an un-intensive understanding of the theories' internal logic. Krae also does this, and to a lesser extent, Crazedrat.

[golden]

I know that growing up, I felt a weakness in my own thinking ability--objective, concrete thinking--and used to overcompensate for it. I did well in school and on standardized tests, and yet I didn't know how to do well in school--does that make sense? It was somewhat out of my control. In college I went too far toward trying to become a "thinker." In fact, I made myself psychologically unstable by trying to accomplish that.

I turned to a career that allows me to maintain a sense of being intelligent while focusing more on creativity. And my work also gives me enough anonymity that I'll never be called out, I guess, on one of my biggest worries, which is that I'll be perceived as stupid or incompetent.

So over time, I've learned to erect layer upon layer of defenses, something like this:

* weakness, covered by
* grandstanding, facts, analysis, vocabulary, erudition, covered by
* being casual and silly in order to not seem soooo pretentious, although
* I know I may still seem pretentious, so I circle back around to feeling my
* weakness ...

As for conspiracy theories, sometimes I have given them serious consideration. Other times I think they're not worth bothering with. I'm willing to consider anything anyone has to say about the world. I like Divided's statement that the issue is seeking a reason. I dwell very much on the question Why? And in answer to it I'm open to even far-fetched notions, because, after all, I have had some pretty weird experiences that make me feel there is certainly more to life than we pretend there is.

But I never do commit myself thoroughly to any one school of thought. You'd never hear me say that I am a conspiracy theorist. If I get sucked too far into something systemic like that, such that I feel others' preformed ideas overdetermine or override my own sense of reality, I set the thing aside. I wave a flag for nothing.

[krieger]

I think Ego Ti works a bit like a back and forth argument with oneself where every statement is immediately met with it's antithesis. This constantly imporves the quality of the judgment until a satisfactory level of correctness is reached.

HA Ti looks to me like a single statement out of that dialogue, thrown out there in isolation, without context as to it's origin and with a kind of naive obliviousness as to it's imperfection in relation to the rebuttal that is immediately in store for it if just it is observed from the vantage point of ego Ti.

[Park]

I think Ego Ti works a bit like a back and forth argument with oneself where every statement is immediately met with it's antithesis. This constantly imporves the quality of the judgment until a satisfactory level of correctness is reached.

HA Ti looks to me like a single statement out of that dialogue, thrown out there in isolation, without context as to it's origin and with a kind of naive obliviousness as to it's imperfection in relation to the rebuttal that is immediately in store for it if just it is observed from the vantage point of ego Ti.

How do you type Keanu?

[krieger]

How do you type Keanu?

He is really, really hard to pin down. INFj is a pretty good guess, but don't quote me on this.

[ArchonAlarion]

I think Ego Ti works a bit like a back and forth argument with oneself where every statement is immediately met with it's antithesis. This constantly imporves the quality of the judgment until a satisfactory level of correctness is reached.

HA Ti looks to me like a single statement out of that dialogue, thrown out there in isolation, without context as to it's origin and with a kind of naive obliviousness as to it's imperfection in relation to the rebuttal that is immediately in store for it if just it is observed from the vantage point of ego Ti.

Exactly.

[Creepy-male]

I think Nick (strrrng) is a good example. Not to say he isn't intelligent or well read (he certainly is), but I feel as though he throws impressive evidence and erudition around to compensate for an un-intensive understanding of the theories' internal logic. Krae also does this, and to a lesser extent, Crazedrat.

All INFps.

My point: I highly doubt that any ISFp would do exactly what you're describing, but something a little different, rather. My weakness is more applying rigid logical laws about how I know things are Meant To Be to reality first (like saying "Oh, water coming out of a kettle can't be 100 degrees! It would be a gas if it were that, so it has to be cooler") before checking out that what I think makes sense actually holds true in reality.

(I also retract my evaluation that I've outgrown this habit. Not at all, I've just acquired more exposure to reality through the years )

Basically, the N/S dichotomy paired up with Ti HA is important. I apply the Ti I acquire* to the world around me, from things as concrete as physical systems, to things as abstract as human relationships.

*Key point, I acquire Ti. I can do a lot with the laws I pick up from other sources, I can follow them logically beyond what I acquired directly, but I'm kind of hopeless at generating them on my own. This isn't hugely relevant to the discussion, though.

HA Ti looks to me like a single statement out of that dialogue, thrown out there in isolation, without context as to it's origin and with a kind of naive obliviousness as to it's imperfection in relation to the rebuttal that is immediately in store for it if just it is observed from the vantage point of ego Ti.

And more than that, it takes the single statement that is the most emotionally powerful. Look at the huge fights I used to get into with thePirate: they were basically ping-pong battles of "My idea feels like it makes perfect sense! Why do you not share this sentiment!!! @$#!!!!! "

Ethical types think emotionally, Logical types think logically. For Ethicals, emotions are thought with; for Logicals, they are thought about.

[Marie84]

How do you type Keanu?

lol I just realize that labcoat has sad Keanu as his avatar

[xerx]

Exactly.

And not exactly. :wink:

[Beautiful sky]

He is really, really hard to pin down. INFj is a pretty good guess, but don't quote me on this.

ISTp

[717495]

ISTp

You're ISTp.

[humblepie]

All INFps.

My point: I highly doubt that any ISFp would do exactly what you're describing, but something a little different, rather. My weakness is more applying rigid logical laws about how I know things are Meant To Be to reality first (like saying "Oh, water coming out of a kettle can't be 100 degrees! It would be a gas if it were that, so it has to be cooler") before checking out that what I think makes sense actually holds true in reality.

(I also retract my evaluation that I've outgrown this habit. Not at all, I've just acquired more exposure to reality through the years )

Basically, the N/S dichotomy paired up with Ti HA is important. I apply the Ti I acquire* to the world around me, from things as concrete as physical systems, to things as abstract as human relationships.

*Key point, I acquire Ti. I can do a lot with the laws I pick up from other sources, I can follow them logically beyond what I acquired directly, but I'm kind of hopeless at generating them on my own. This isn't hugely relevant to the discussion, though.



And more than that, it takes the single statement that is the most emotionally powerful. Look at the huge fights I used to get into with thePirate: they were basically ping-pong battles of "My idea feels like it makes perfect sense! Why do you not share this sentiment!!! @$#!!!!! "

Ethical types think emotionally, Logical types think logically. For Ethicals, emotions are thought with; for Logicals, they are thought about.

you've just pinned down why i have fought with everyone i have ever fought with. it's a cause of most fights really isn't it? ignorance of the fact that you are blind to the other side of reality and reacting with hatred towards those who can see what you can't.

[Creepy-male]

Te-PoLRs definitely consider the facts and put a great amount of weight into having references to back up their ideas. This is how I think Ti-HA manifests, compensating for the lack of incompetence in a certain field, to the point of either a) repressing the existence of new knowledge due to under-confidence, or what they normally strive for b) showing how much they know, being well read and stating the facts and the sources, and casually deflecting all negative questions directed toward them about their education or understanding, in order to divert their weaknesses from others.

Basically your saying hidden agenda thinking is like essentially being a thinker poser, they express themselves as very erudite and pedantic, but really they aren't and they are insecure over this aspect.

Makes sense, however I am curious about a different aspect of Ti-HA, specifically how the systematic logic differs from Te. That in a sense Ti-HA types try to put things quickly into organized thought processes like Ti ego types do, the difference though is since they lack a strong Te foundation, the efforts of the Ti-HA types end up being built on an instable and unlogical foundation. To them its more of a feeling, they feel like this belongs with this, so boom, they put them together and make a logical connection between the two. They just sort of perceive with their feelings how things should fit together like an artist rather than actually making sure their organized thought processes hold up factually against argument.

Of course at some level this links to what your saying also, socially they would like to think of their efforts as worthy, however they realize deep down they don't really "get" what it is they are studying, however they still feel their ideas have some validity based on their feelings or perceptions about said idea.

...

Do you relate at all to "feeling" how things fit together to create an understanding about things rather than systematically analyzing something to give it credibility. Like outside of school and work, when its just you being interesting in something, do you just read up on it and feel how things fit together, or do you pull out the "hammer" and start to analyze stuff in depth and think hard on it.

I think Ego Ti works a bit like a back and forth argument with oneself where every statement is immediately met with it's antithesis. This constantly imporves the quality of the judgment until a satisfactory level of correctness is reached.

HA Ti looks to me like a single statement out of that dialogue, thrown out there in isolation, without context as to it's origin and with a kind of naive obliviousness as to it's imperfection in relation to the rebuttal that is immediately in store for it if just it is observed from the vantage point of ego Ti.

This sounds more like Ne and Ti working together in the ego block than pure Ti, Ne perceives various potential and possibilities, call them scenarios, or better yet games. Then Ti analyzes these for logical consistency and sensibility. What results is a series of games or experiments with ideas. The experimental method, Ne + Ti is really easy to spot, because Alpha NTs experiment a lot with things in everyday life to make sense of the world around them. Even with other people, especially ENTps will say stuff just to see what reaction they get, a form of social experimentation.

My weakness is more applying rigid logical laws about how I know things are Meant To Be to reality first (like saying "Oh, water coming out of a kettle can't be 100 degrees! It would be a gas if it were that, so it has to be cooler") before checking out that what I think makes sense actually holds true in reality.

Exactly, since your base function is a sensing perception, your more concerned about seeing reality, touching feeling, sensing the experience.

This of course is compounded with feeling, so the nature of this perception tends more towards feelings that you are perceiving as opposed to factual observation.

So when someone is saying things based off of logical facts Ti-HA types are likely to look at it as.... possibly stupid? to accept things logically rather than to just perceive it with feelings.

However, I think the story gets more complex with actually Ti, I believe Ti-HA types have a tendency to have an intrigue into how things fit together logically, how things connect together... however they satisfy this intrigue by feeling their way through their connections, rather than make logical conclusions to construct some systematic reasoning.

This is what I'm really interesting in, do you relate to the desire to connect things together logically. Like are you impressed when someone can make a connection between two separate ideas or things, do you try to do this in your own live via feeling?

ISTp

Haha, I strategically saved this as my last response.......

No, just no.....

[Creepy-male]

This of course is compounded with feeling, so the nature of this perception tends more towards feelings that you are perceiving as opposed to factual observation.

Yeah, but they're "logical" feelings. So I get this emotional ping of feeling a sense of clarity, or that what I've derived from a known system makes sense, or something.

So when someone is saying things based off of logical facts Ti-HA types are likely to look at it as.... possibly stupid? to accept things logically rather than to just perceive it with feelings.

I suppose it can go one of two ways... either "How did I miss that? You're so right." or "You're not thinking about the emotional side of things."

Although, you can be right. Something that happens with Mum a lot is she'll say something that is actually true in the real world, but to me defies my logical understanding, so I'll scoff at her and explain to her why she's wrong

However, I think the story gets more complex with actually Ti, I believe Ti-HA types have a tendency to have an intrigue into how things fit together logically, how things connect together... however they satisfy this intrigue by feeling their way through their connections, rather than make logical conclusions to construct some systematic reasoning.

This is what I'm really interesting in, do you relate to the desire to connect things together logically. Like are you impressed when someone can make a connection between two separate ideas or things, do you try to do this in your own live via feeling?

I love when people can make sense of some obscure logical connection and add a sense of structure to things, yes. It's something I struggle to do for myself.

I might flesh this post out later, but I just woke up, so my brain is still thawing out.

[Creepy-male]

Yeah, but they're "logical" feelings. So I get this emotional ping of feeling a sense of clarity, or that what I've derived from a known system makes sense, or something.

Hmm yea but do you base this off of analysis or some exact method of proof/evidence or just go with your feelings on things.

so I'll scoff at her and explain to her why she's wrong

lol awesome, I don't like when people aren't logical, its a bit annoying, but the other thing that always gets me is the long warm up time it takes for me to explain things, usually I'll have like a 5 minute preparatory setup before I start to get to the meat of an issue, usually I've lost a person's interest by then, whenever people outside of a certain field want an explanation from me I always feel like they expect me to ejaculate out some profound truth in 2 seconds, it doesn't work like that, you have to work the idea out in detail and they have to follow your thought process, otherwise they don't stand a prayer of understanding you. People will ask questions like "explain quantum mechanics" and they stare at you like they're expecting a single sentence that will give them a full understanding of it all in 2 seconds, which I wish is how it worked.