Analysis of the j/p switch in Socionics and MBTI

[JohnDo]

A lot of people are of the opinion that an MBTI INTJ is a socionics INTp and vice versa. Let's find it out by analyzing the descriptions in detail...

INTJs live in the world of ideas and strategic planning. They value intelligence, knowledge, and competence, and typically have high standards in these regards, which they continuously strive to fulfill. To a somewhat lesser extent, they have similar expectations of others.

Ideas are an Alpha-NT domain. INTj is strategic wheras INTp is tactical.
1:0

With Introverted Intuition dominating their personality, INTJs focus their energy on observing the world, and generating ideas and possibilities. Their mind constantly gathers information and makes associations about it. They are tremendously insightful and usually are very quick to understand new ideas. However, their primary interest is not understanding a concept, but rather applying that concept in a useful way. Unlike the INTP, they do not follow an idea as far as they possibly can, seeking only to understand it fully. INTJs are driven to come to conclusions about ideas. Their need for closure and organization usually requires that they take some action.

Confusing passage because they interpret Ni completely differently than in socionics. Again, ideas are INTj but applying instead of understanding concepts is INTp.
1:1

INTJ's tremendous value and need for systems and organization, combined with their natural insightfulness, makes them excellent scientists. An INTJ scientist gives a gift to society by putting their ideas into a useful form for others to follow. It is not easy for the INTJ to express their internal images, insights, and abstractions. The internal form of the INTJ's thoughts and concepts is highly individualized, and is not readily translatable into a form that others will understand. However, the INTJ is driven to translate their ideas into a plan or system that is usually readily explainable, rather than to do a direct translation of their thoughts. They usually don't see the value of a direct transaction, and will also have difficulty expressing their ideas, which are non-linear. However, their extreme respect of knowledge and intelligence will motivate them to explain themselves to another person who they feel is deserving of the effort.

INTj is harder to understand than INTp.
2:1

INTJs are natural leaders, although they usually choose to remain in the background until they see a real need to take over the lead. When they are in leadership roles, they are quite effective, because they are able to objectively see the reality of a situation, and are adaptable enough to change things which aren't working well. They are the supreme strategists - always scanning available ideas and concepts and weighing them against their current strategy, to plan for every conceivable contingency.

INTj is strategic, INTp is tactical.
3:1

INTJs spend a lot of time inside their own minds, and may have little interest in the other people's thoughts or feelings. Unless their Feeling side is developed, they may have problems giving other people the level of intimacy that is needed. Unless their Sensing side is developed, they may have a tendency to ignore details which are necessary for implementing their ideas.

Applies to both.
3.5:1.5

The INTJ's interest in dealing with the world is to make decisions, express judgments, and put everything that they encounter into an understandable and rational system. Consequently, they are quick to express judgments. Often they have very evolved intuitions, and are convinced that they are right about things. Unless they complement their intuitive understanding with a well-developed ability to express their insights, they may find themselves frequently misunderstood. In these cases, INTJs tend to blame misunderstandings on the limitations of the other party, rather than on their own difficulty in expressing themselves. This tendency may cause the INTJ to dismiss others input too quickly, and to become generally arrogant and elitist.

INTj is clearly more arrogant and harder to understand.
4.5:1.5

INTJs are ambitious, self-confident, deliberate, long-range thinkers. Many INTJs end up in engineering or scientific pursuits, although some find enough challenge within the business world in areas which involve organizing and strategic planning. They dislike messiness and inefficiency, and anything that is muddled or unclear. They value clarity and efficiency, and will put enormous amounts of energy and time into consolidating their insights into structured patterns.

Business and efficiency are INTp.
4.5:2.5

Other people may have a difficult time understanding an INTJ. They may see them as aloof and reserved. Indeed, the INTJ is not overly demonstrative of their affections, and is likely to not give as much praise or positive support as others may need or desire. That doesn't mean that he or she doesn't truly have affection or regard for others, they simply do not typically feel the need to express it. Others may falsely perceive the INTJ as being rigid and set in their ways. Nothing could be further from the truth, because the INTJ is committed to always finding the objective best strategy to implement their ideas. The INTJ is usually quite open to hearing an alternative way of doing something.

Hard to tell. Applies to both in a way.
5:3

When under a great deal of stress, the INTJ may become obsessed with mindless repetitive, Sensate activities, such as over-drinking. They may also tend to become absorbed with minutia and details that they would not normally consider important to their overall goal.

This point goes to the INTj who is Se-vulnerable, even though it might also apply to some INTps.
6:3

INTJs need to remember to express themselves sufficiently, so as to avoid difficulties with people misunderstandings. In the absence of properly developing their communication abilities, they may become abrupt and short with people, and isolationists.

Applies to both.
6.5:3.5

INTJs have a tremendous amount of ability to accomplish great things. They have insight into the Big Picture, and are driven to synthesize their concepts into solid plans of action. Their reasoning skills gives them the means to accomplish that. INTJs are most always highly competent people, and will not have a problem meeting their career or education goals. They have the capability to make great strides in these arenas. On a personal level, the INTJ who practices tolerances and puts effort into effectively communicating their insights to others has everything in his or her power to lead a rich and rewarding life.

Applies to both.
7:4

Conclusion
7:4 is not a very clear result but in my opinion it is rather a description of the type we know as Analyst in socionics.

Let's look at the INTP:

INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities. They see everything in terms of how it could be improved, or what it could be turned into. They live primarily inside their own minds, having the ability to analyze difficult problems, identify patterns, and come up with logical explanations. They seek clarity in everything, and are therefore driven to build knowledge. They are the "absent-minded professors", who highly value intelligence and the ability to apply logic to theories to find solutions. They typically are so strongly driven to turn problems into logical explanations, that they live much of their lives within their own heads, and may not place as much importance or value on the external world. Their natural drive to turn theories into concrete understanding may turn into a feeling of personal responsibility to solve theoretical problems, and help society move towards a higher understanding.

Analyze problems, identify patterns, logical explanations. Clearly INTj.
0:1

INTPs value knowledge above all else. Their minds are constantly working to generate new theories, or to prove or disprove existing theories. They approach problems and theories with enthusiasm and skepticism, ignoring existing rules and opinions and defining their own approach to the resolution. They seek patterns and logical explanations for anything that interests them. They're usually extremely bright, and able to be objectively critical in their analysis. They love new ideas, and become very excited over abstractions and theories. They love to discuss these concepts with others. They may seem "dreamy" and distant to others, because they spend a lot of time inside their minds musing over theories. They hate to work on routine things - they would much prefer to build complex theoretical solutions, and leave the implementation of the system to others. They are intensely interested in theory, and will put forth tremendous amounts of time and energy into finding a solution to a problem with has piqued their interest.

Generate theories, enthusiasm, ignoring rules, new ideas. Definitely INTj.
0:2

INTPs do not like to lead or control people. They're very tolerant and flexible in most situations, unless one of their firmly held beliefs has been violated or challenged, in which case they may take a very rigid stance. The INTP is likely to be very shy when it comes to meeting new people. On the other hand, the INTP is very self-confident and gregarious around people they know well, or when discussing theories which they fully understand.

Depends on subtype.
0.5:2.5

The INTP has no understanding or value for decisions made on the basis of personal subjectivity or feelings. They strive constantly to achieve logical conclusions to problems, and don't understand the importance or relevance of applying subjective emotional considerations to decisions. For this reason, INTPs are usually not in-tune with how people are feeling, and are not naturally well-equiped to meet the emotional needs of others.

Definitely INTp. Constructivist, objectivist and Fe-vulnerable. INTj is emotivist, subjectivist and Fe is his dual-seeking function.
1.5:2.5

The INTP may have a problem with self-aggrandizement and social rebellion, which will interfere with their creative potential. Since their Feeling side is their least developed trait, the INTP may have difficulty giving the warmth and support that is sometimes necessary in intimate relationships. If the INTP doesn't realize the value of attending to other people's feelings, he or she may become overly critical and sarcastic with others. If the INTP is not able to find a place for themself which supports the use of their strongest abilities, they may become generally negative and cynical. If the INTP has not developed their Sensing side sufficiently, they may become unaware of their environment, and exhibit weakness in performing maintenance-type tasks, such as bill-paying and dressing appropriately.

Self-aggrandizement, social rebellion and creative potential are clearly INTj traits. The rest applies to both in a way so the point goes to the INTj.
1.5:3.5

For the INTP, it is extremely important that ideas and facts are expressed correctly and succinctly. They are likely to express themselves in what they believe to be absolute truths. Sometimes, their well thought-out understanding of an idea is not easily understandable by others, but the INTP is not naturally likely to tailor the truth so as to explain it in an understandable way to others. The INTP may be prone to abandoning a project once they have figured it out, moving on to the next thing. It's important that the INTP place importance on expressing their developed theories in understandable ways. In the end, an amazing discovery means nothing if you are the only person who understands it.

Applies to both.
2:4

The INTP is usually very independent, unconventional, and original. They are not likely to place much value on traditional goals such as popularity and security. They usually have complex characters, and may tend to be restless and temperamental. They are strongly ingenious, and have unconventional thought patterns which allows them to analyze ideas in new ways. Consequently, a lot of scientific breakthroughs in the world have been made by the INTP.

Unconventional instead of traditional. INTj.
2:5

The INTP is at his best when he can work on his theories independently. When given an environment which supports his creative genius and possible eccentricity, the INTP can accomplish truly remarkable things. These are the pioneers of new thoughts in our society.

New thoughts are an Alpha domain. INTj.
2:6

Conclusion
The INTJ scored 7:4 and the INTP even 6:2 as INTj. So both are Analysts and not Critics, probably with different subtypes. Maybe the guys on personalitypage are going to write a description of the socionics INTp-Critic soon...

[Aiss]

Maybe one day you'll realize how biased you are. Oh wait, you won't, you're LII.

[JohnDo]

Let's have a look at the descriptions on typelogic.com.

To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very specific rather than a general nature; its source lies in the specialized knowledge systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. When it comes to their own areas of expertise -- and INTJs can have several -- they will be able to tell you almost immediately whether or not they can help you, and if so, how. INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more importantly, they know what they don't know.

Applies to both.
0.5:0.5

INTJs are perfectionists, with a seemingly endless capacity for improving upon anything that takes their interest. What prevents them from becoming chronically bogged down in this pursuit of perfection is the pragmatism so characteristic of the type: INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion "Does it work?" to everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social norms. This in turn produces an unusual independence of mind, freeing the INTJ from the constraints of authority, convention, or sentiment for its own sake.

INTp is more traditional in most cases.
1.5:0.5

INTJs are known as the "Systems Builders" of the types, perhaps in part because they possess the unusual trait combination of imagination and reliability. Whatever system an INTJ happens to be working on is for them the equivalent of a moral cause to an INFJ; both perfectionism and disregard for authority may come into play, as INTJs can be unsparing of both themselves and the others on the project. Anyone considered to be "slacking," including superiors, will lose their respect -- and will generally be made aware of this; INTJs have also been known to take it upon themselves to implement critical decisions without consulting their supervisors or co-workers. On the other hand, they do tend to be scrupulous and even-handed about recognizing the individual contributions that have gone into a project, and have a gift for seizing opportunities which others might not even notice.

A rebel. Clearly INTj.
2.5:0.5

In the broadest terms, what INTJs "do" tends to be what they "know". Typical INTJ career choices are in the sciences and engineering, but they can be found wherever a combination of intellect and incisiveness are required (e.g., law, some areas of academia). INTJs can rise to management positions when they are willing to invest time in marketing their abilities as well as enhancing them, and (whether for the sake of ambition or the desire for privacy) many also find it useful to learn to simulate some degree of surface conformism in order to mask their inherent unconventionality.

Inquisitive and unconventional. INTj.
3.5:0.5

Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for others (usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal of time and effort on a relationship, the knowledge and self-confidence that make them so successful in other areas can suddenly abandon or mislead them in interpersonal situations.

Applies to both.
4:1

This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals; for instance, they tend to have little patience and less understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation (which most types consider half the fun of a relationship). To complicate matters, INTJs are usually extremely private people, and can often be naturally impassive as well, which makes them easy to misread and misunderstand. Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense. :-) This sometimes results in a peculiar naivete', paralleling that of many Fs -- only instead of expecting inexhaustible affection and empathy from a romantic relationship, the INTJ will expect inexhaustible reasonability and directness.

INTj
5:1

Probably the strongest INTJ assets in the interpersonal area are their intuitive abilities and their willingness to "work at" a relationship. Although as Ts they do not always have the kind of natural empathy that many Fs do, the Intuitive function can often act as a good substitute by synthesizing the probable meanings behind such things as tone of voice, turn of phrase, and facial expression. This ability can then be honed and directed by consistent, repeated efforts to understand and support those they care about, and those relationships which ultimately do become established with an INTJ tend to be characterized by their robustness, stability, and good communications.

Applies to both...?

Conclusion
This INTJ is clearly a socionics INTj, too. But I think it is not a very ggod description compared to those in socionics...

INTPs are pensive, analytical folks. They may venture so deeply into thought as to seem detached, and often actually are oblivious to the world around them.

Applies to both.
0.5:0.5

Precise about their descriptions, INTPs will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives INTPs so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists.

A Critic.
1.5:0.5

INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to almost anything until their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved albeit benign ambiance, not wishing to make spectacles of themselves.

Sounds a bit like an INTp but might also apply to an INTj.
2:1

A major concern for INTPs is the haunting sense of impending failure. They spend considerable time second-guessing themselves. The open-endedness (from Perceiving) conjoined with the need for competence (NT) is expressed in a sense that one's conclusion may well be met by an equally plausible alternative solution, and that, after all, one may very well have overlooked some critical bit of data. An INTP arguing a point may very well be trying to convince himself as much as his opposition. In this way INTPs are markedly different from INTJs, who are much more confident in their competence and willing to act on their convictions.

True.
3:1

Mathematics is a system where many INTPs love to play, similarly languages, computer systems--potentially any complex system. INTPs thrive on systems. Understanding, exploring, mastering, and manipulating systems can overtake the INTP's conscious thought. This fascination for logical wholes and their inner workings is often expressed in a detachment from the environment, a concentration where time is forgotten and extraneous stimuli are held at bay. Accomplishing a task or goal with this knowledge is secondary.

Now that sounds like an INTj to me.
3:2

INTPs and Logic -- One of the tipoffs that a person is an INTP is her obsession with logical correctness. Errors are not often due to poor logic -- apparent faux pas in reasoning are usually a result of overlooking details or of incorrect context.

Don't know
3.5:2.5

Games NTs seem to especially enjoy include Risk, Bridge, Stratego, Chess, Go, and word games of all sorts. (I have an ENTP friend that loves Boggle and its variations. We've been known to sit in public places and pick a word off a menu or mayonnaise jar to see who can make the most words from its letters on a napkin in two minutes.) The INTP mailing list has enjoyed a round of Metaphore, virtual volleyball, and a few 'finish the series' brain teasers.

WTF?
4:3

INTPs in the main are not clannish. The INTP mailing list, with a readership now in triple figures, was in its incipience fraught with all the difficulties of the Panama canal: we had trouble deciding:
whether or not there should be such a group,
exactly what such a group should be called, and
which of us would have to take the responsibility for organization and maintenance of the aforesaid group/club/whatever.

Fuck yourself.

Conclusion
Not a good description but certainly the description of an INTp.

[Crispy]

With Introverted Intuition dominating their personality, INTJs focus their energy on observing the world, and generating ideas and possibilities. Their mind constantly gathers information and makes associations about it. They are tremendously insightful and usually are very quick to understand new ideas. However, their primary interest is not understanding a concept, but rather applying that concept in a useful way. Unlike the INTP, they do not follow an idea as far as they possibly can, seeking only to understand it fully. INTJs are driven to come to conclusions about ideas. Their need for closure and organization usually requires that they take some action.

(The INTJ's) mind constantly gathers information and makes associations about it

Clear case of Socionics Ne

(INTP's commonly) follow an idea as far as they possibly can

Clear case of Socionics Ni

Also, some of the points you are giving are ambiguous enough to not be worth counting and some are strong enough to solidify a non-correlation.

Having the INTJ being called a strategist is proof enough of it not being INTp (a tactician), and further evidence that INTj fits like a glove.

Finding evidence for INTP = INTp is a bit harder, but I have already posted the strongest piece of evidence I found for this. Here it is again:

-=THIS=-
INTP Relationships
INTP Weaknesses:
Tend to "blow off" conflict situations by ignoring them, or else they "blow up" in heated anger (Fe PoLR)

-=SOUNDS A LOT LIKE THIS=-
Filatova ILI - Wikisocion
He prefers not to quarrel with family and is willing to go as far as it takes to get away from conflict, even if his partner becomes intolerant. However, in a critical situation he is capable of “exploding,” losing control of himself, manifesting a state of literal madness – in such times he may resort to physical violence on his surroundings.

Since INTP is the only one of the 16 types on personalitypage that exhibits this behavior, and INTp is the only one of the 16 types on Filatova that exhibits this same behavior, they must be the same type.

[MatthewZ]

Maybe one day you'll realize how biased you are. Oh wait, you won't, you're LII.

QFT.

[tcaudilllg]

You are so overblowing this.

MBTI INTP sets Ti as the dominant and Ne as the auxiliary. LII sets Ti as the base and Ne as the creating.

MBTI uses analytical psychology terminology.

Jung's dominant = Augusta's base
Jung's auxiliary = Augusta's creating

Augusta is explicit about the correlation.

What is the nature of Ti in the lead followed by Ne? Obviously there can only be one set of true premises for the same. The question is, which observational set (from amongst all those descriptions) is correct? Only the LII descriptions are assuredly correct... therefore we conclude that any description of a type which has dominant Ti and auxiliary Ne which is at valence with socionics LII is necessarily incorrect.

[Crispy]

That doesn't match why most MBTI INTJ type descriptions match ridiculously well with most socionics LII descriptions, disregarding the functional MBTI descriptions. The functional MBTI descriptions are based on an illogical system. Augusta fixed the system, but she did not change the definitions of the types or their dichotomies (The words changed, the meaning did not).

All the confusion sprang up because the creators of MBTI botched the functional system for introverts, only to have it fixed by Augusta.

[krieger]

A major concern for INTPs is the haunting sense of impending failure. They spend considerable time second-guessing themselves. The open-endedness (from Perceiving) conjoined with the need for competence (NT) is expressed in a sense that one's conclusion may well be met by an equally plausible alternative solution, and that, after all, one may very well have overlooked some critical bit of data. An INTP arguing a point may very well be trying to convince himself as much as his opposition. In this way INTPs are markedly different from INTJs, who are much more confident in their competence and willing to act on their convictions.

True.
3:1

Goes for both. This is the part that always sealed the deal as to my not being INTJ when I was trying to decide which MBTI I was. Acting on real "convictions" is something I do in a very specialized set of activities only. It is not something that characterizes me in a general sense, nor any other INTj I know.

The haunting sense of failure is something I have intimate knowledge of. Especially here in socionics I always feel like no answers are ever certain and everyone is just guessing at things, the real challenges forever remaining unsurmountable while everyone deludes themselves with a false sense of security.

Of course this does motivate me towards speaking up on the rare occasion that after 5 years of practice I do feel certain about something. If someone looked at those occasions in isolation they would get a very misleading image of me.

[Crispy]

A major concern for INTPs is the haunting sense of impending failure. They spend considerable time second-guessing themselves. The open-endedness (from Perceiving) conjoined with the need for competence (NT) is expressed in a sense that one's conclusion may well be met by an equally plausible alternative solution, and that, after all, one may very well have overlooked some critical bit of data. An INTP arguing a point may very well be trying to convince himself as much as his opposition. In this way INTPs are markedly different from INTJs, who are much more confident in their competence and willing to act on their convictions.

INTp uncovered
In fact, INTps will debate for the sake of debate. The process becomes more important than the outcome. They often lose the point of a debate when they shift focus to other unrelated subjects in the process. When defeated, INTps can easily do a U turn on something they were arguing just seconds ago. They deserve respect for being able to accept the defeat and disrespect for never being truly committed in their views.

I just don't see the difference between an INTP and an INTp.

[tcaudilllg]

It's just butchered. Let's leave it at that.

[Crispy]

I would if there weren't an abundance of clues leading to a direct correlation.

[krieger]

MBTI INTJ describes a socially reclusive ExTj type. Socionics INTjs are far more concerned with understanding things than with putting them to use.

[tcaudilllg]

I would if there weren't an abundance of clues leading to a direct correlation.

Yeah that's what Phaedrus said.

[717495]

[krieger]

A major concern for INTPs is the haunting sense of impending failure. They spend considerable time second-guessing themselves. The open-endedness (from Perceiving) conjoined with the need for competence (NT) is expressed in a sense that one's conclusion may well be met by an equally plausible alternative solution, and that, after all, one may very well have overlooked some critical bit of data. An INTP arguing a point may very well be trying to convince himself as much as his opposition. In this way INTPs are markedly different from INTJs, who are much more confident in their competence and willing to act on their convictions.

INTp uncovered
In fact, INTps will debate for the sake of debate. The process becomes more important than the outcome. They often lose the point of a debate when they shift focus to other unrelated subjects in the process. When defeated, INTps can easily do a U turn on something they were arguing just seconds ago. They deserve respect for being able to accept the defeat and disrespect for never being truly committed in their views.

There's no way in hell this describes Phaedrus. That man was positively insane.

[Crispy]

I don't understand, who is Phaedrus?

EDIT:

MBTI INTJ describes a socially reclusive ExTj type. Socionics INTjs are far more concerned with understanding things than with putting them to use.

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INTJ.html

The internal form of the INTJ's thoughts and concepts is highly individualized, and is not readily translatable into a form that others will understand.

I thought Te Dominants were the ones who think in terms that others WILL be able to understand. This is clearly describing a Ti dominant's internal logic.

You can't call it an introverted extrovert if introvertedness is embedded throughout the entire description.

[Crispy]

Another correlation:
Portrait of an INTJ

INTJs live in the world of ideas and strategic planning. They value intelligence, knowledge, and competence, and typically have high standards in these regards, which they continuously strive to fulfill. To a somewhat lesser extent, they have similar expectations of others.

Extroverted intuition - Wikisocion

Ne as a creative (2nd) function (LII and EII)

The individual likes to apply his insight to specific situations, relating them to the bigger picture. He also enjoys discussing idealized circumstances or what could be rather than what is. Consequently, he usually has high standards, even unreasonably so, for those around him.

He does not pursue ideas or new opportunities merely for their own sake, but for their application to specific questions and issues that he feels are important. <--- LOL BONUS*

Introverted logic - Wikisocion

Ti as a base (1st) function (LII and LSI)

The individual views reality through the lens of logic, immediately recognizing the correctness and appropriateness of things and their proper place in reality and in his system of views and behavior. He freely makes logical assertions, often exaggerated, about new information and experience. He holds highest those rules to which exceptions do not exist, and is a habitual critic of people or things that don't follow a set of rules, whether they are those accepted by the community, or his own, or even the other person's. Although he is able to adopt others' rules, his own are always the last word, and these are subject to continual refinement.

Often seen as "demanding", due to high standards.

Filatova LII - Wikisocion

LII does not aim for leadership positions. Administrative activity is not her element. If, nevertheless, LII must be occupied by such she will attempt to utilize objective criteria. She will provide logical reasons to convince subordinates of the need to undertake one approach over another. In leadership is more so inclined towards democratic methods, but is always very exacting. Due to her high standards of accuracy and precision, she cannot be wholly entrusted to an executive position. If given authority she will try, by herself, to check over everything, to personally convince herself that everything that must be done has been brought to completion.

*: LOL BONUS refers to this quote

Socionics INTjs are far more concerned with understanding things than with putting them to use.

When you combine all the descriptions, there is no difference between INTJ and INTj.

[krieger]

Ne as a creative (2nd) function (LII and EII)

The individual likes to apply his insight to specific situations, relating them to the bigger picture. He also enjoys discussing idealized circumstances or what could be rather than what is. Consequently, he usually has high standards, even unreasonably so, for those around him.

He does not pursue ideas or new opportunities merely for their own sake, but for their application to specific questions and issues that he feels are important. <--- LOL BONUS*

Wikisocion diverges from canon socionics here. Keep in mind it is a resource written by hobbyist users.

LII does not aim for leadership positions. Administrative activity is not her element. If, nevertheless, LII must be occupied by such she will attempt to utilize objective criteria. She will provide logical reasons to convince subordinates of the need to undertake one approach over another. In leadership is more so inclined towards democratic methods, but is always very exacting. Due to her high standards of accuracy and precision, she cannot be wholly entrusted to an executive position. If given authority she will try, by herself, to check over everything, to personally convince herself that everything that must be done has been brought to completion.

A huge lot of this flat out contradicts the materials on INTJ.

[krieger]

I thought Te Dominants were the ones who think in terms that others WILL be able to understand. This is clearly describing a Ti dominant's internal logic.

You can't call it an introverted extrovert if introvertedness is embedded throughout the entire description.

It's really Base Te that is embedded throughout the descriptions. Extreme work drive and neurotic obsession with improvement of material conditions.

[Crispy]

A huge lot of this flat out contradicts the materials on INTJ.

I see 0 contradictions. Care to pin-point one of them?
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INTJ.html

INTJs are natural leaders, 1. although they usually choose to remain in the background until they see a real need to take over the lead. When they are in leadership roles, they are quite effective, because 2. they are able to objectively see the reality of a situation, and are adaptable enough to 3. change things which aren't working well. They are the supreme strategists - always scanning available ideas and concepts and weighing them against their current strategy, 4. to plan for every conceivable contingency.

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...e=Filatova_LII

1. LII does not aim for leadership positions. Administrative activity is not her element. If, nevertheless, LII must be occupied by such she 2. will attempt to utilize objective criteria. She will provide logical reasons to convince subordinates of the 3. need to undertake one approach over another. In leadership is more so inclined towards democratic methods, but is always very exacting. Due to her high standards of accuracy and precision, she cannot be wholly entrusted to an executive position. If given authority she will try, by herself, to check over everything, 4. to personally convince herself that everything that must be done has been brought to completion.

Those are four points that are completely consistent (they have the same meaning) in both descriptions. Where are the flat out contradictions you were talking about?

[krieger]

The first talks about leadership being a natural talent, despite not something directly pursued. The second talks about leadership being something they are awkward with and a bunch of saving graces and quirks despite this. The tone of the message is opposite.

[Crispy]

The INTJ probably chooses to remain in the background because he/she looks awkward in leadership. The "natural leader" need only apply to their abilities, where the saving graces help them to succeed under normal circumstances.

[krieger]

You need to learn to detect emphasis and tone. Look at the first lines of the two descriptions. They express opposite standpoints. The first line of a paragraph typically summarizes it's content. INTJs are natural leaders. INTjs are characteristically avoidant of leadership.

The second line of the first description just expresses a subtlety. Yes, the INTJ is a natural leader, but that doesn't mean he rushes towards leadership. This is still something completely different from "not aiming for leadership" altogether.

[Crispy]

The second line of the first description just expresses a subtlety. Yes, the INTJ is a natural leader, but that doesn't mean he rushes towards leadership. This is still something completely different from "not aiming for leadership" altogether.

It doesn't say "that doesn't mean he rushes towards leadership"
It says "they usually choose to remain in the background"

It specifically says that under normal circumstances (usually) they choose to avoid leadership.

This correlates well with "not aiming for leadership" not altogether, but usually.

[krieger]

The fact that they only "usually" stay in the background weakens your case rather than strengthens it.

[Crispy]

I don't see how that could be.
Filatova is saying "LII's don't like being leaders, but if they have to they will often be successful".
PersonalityPage is saying "INTJ's are often successful leaders, but they usually don't like being leaders."

Are you saying that LII always, as opposed to usually, stay in the background?

[tcaudilllg]

Comrades, comrades control yourselves! Observe, you have fallen headfirst into Che Guevera's vile devices.

[krieger]

Filatova is saying "LII's don't like being leaders, but if they have to they will often be successful".

Wrong. It mentions nothing of the sort (bolded). It just lists a bunch of facts about their style in the unlikely event they would "nevertheless" engage in leadership.

PersonalityPage is saying "INTJ's are often successful leaders, but they usually don't like being leaders."

It says nothing about "not liking" being the leader. At best it says something about their oppurtune timing in rising to a leadership position.

[Aleksei]

I'm not sure that an introvert J/P switch is all that's needed for MBTI/Socionics equivalence to work, but for ILI/LII and INTJ/INTP it works beautifully (though most INTJ descriptions severely understate how manipulative and driven to lead INTJs can be -- INTJ can equal LIE as much as ILI). Bravo to the OP for his insightful analysis.

MBTI INTJ describes a socially reclusive ExTj type. Socionics INTjs are far more concerned with understanding things than with putting them to use.

I'd say reclusive ENTj. I don't see much ESTj in the INTJ description.

[Crispy]

Comrades, comrades control yourselves! Observe, you have fallen headfirst into Che Guevera's vile devices.

Trap or not, I see no harm in discussing the j/p switch and related topics.


Alright Labcoat, you've established at the very least that the tone of the two descriptions in that example are different. Can you explain the INTP/INTp one?

-=THIS=-
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INTP_rel.html
INTP Weaknesses:
Tend to "blow off" conflict situations by ignoring them, or else they "blow up" in heated anger (Fe PoLR)

-=SOUNDS A LOT LIKE THIS=-
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...e=Filatova_ILI
He prefers not to quarrel with family and is willing to go as far as it takes to get away from conflict, even if his partner becomes intolerant. However, in a critical situation he is capable of “exploding,” losing control of himself, manifesting a state of literal madness – in such times he may resort to physical violence on his surroundings.

Since INTP is the only one of the 16 types on personalitypage that exhibits this behavior, and INTp is the only one of the 16 types on Filatova that exhibits this same behavior, they must be the same type.

[krieger]

- there are tons of types that are conflict avoidant; hardly just the INTp.
- the building up of stress until it becomes too much, leading to a "explosive" reaction, is something universal to human psychology. Again, hardly exclusive to INTp.

[tcaudilllg]

Trap or not, I see no harm in discussing the j/p switch and related topics.

You'll never get anywhere. It's like trying to prove two economics philosophers had the same ideas even though they disagreed -- you'll never convince everybody.

[Crispy]

Regardless of whether these behaviors are found universally, the type descriptions INTP and INTp are the only 2 out of 32 type descriptions in two theories that mention it as something to look out for. Therefore the behavior should be more commonly found in those (that) two (one) types (type).

[Aleksei]

You'll never get anywhere. It's like trying to prove two economics philosophers had the same ideas even though they disagreed -- you'll never convince everybody.

Of course he won't. The idea is ridiculous.

[Crispy]

You'll never get anywhere. It's like trying to prove two economics philosophers had the same ideas even though they disagreed -- you'll never convince everybody.

No it's like trying to prove two economics philosophers discovered the same phenomenon and one failed to explain it correctly.

[JohnDo]

Once I was of the same opinion as Crispy is. I had taken an MBTI test with INTJ as result and I related to the INTJ descriptions on the internet. But today I think that the personalitypage INTP rather describes a socionics INTj.

I've never read a book about MBTI but forum member Jarno says he has read about 10 MBTI books and INTP=INTp. Maybe the online descriptions are just inaccurate?

The problem on this forum is that most people here believe that the descriptions on personalitypage are "MBTI descriptions" which is not the case. They are "Personalitypage descriptions", not "MBTI descriptions":

A website about Psychological Type, based primarily upon the works of Carl G. Jung, pioneer psychologist, and of Isabel Briggs Myers, creator of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI)

So this website is "based primarily" on the MBTI - but it is not MBTI.

MBTI® and MYERS-BRIGGS TYPE INDICATOR® are registered trademarks and MYERS-BRIGGS™ is a trademark of Consulting Psychologists Press, Inc., the publisher of the MBTI instrument. BSM Consulting is not affiliated with and is not a licensee of Consulting Psychologists Press, Inc.

BSM (the owner of this website) is not affiliated with MBTI and is not a licensee.

@Crispy: I think I was the one who recommended personalitypage to you some months ago and said that you have to be INTJ there. Well, I'm still of the opinion that it actually describes an INTj - but the INTP description is even a better INTj description I guess

[Crispy]

As far as I can tell, personalitypage has been consistent with all the other MBTI sites I've read. I've never seen any significant deviations in the type descriptions. I have however, seen extremely similar details listed between MBTI sites and socioniocs websites, particularly for INTj's and INTp's. Also, I wasn't aware you needed a license to make an informative website. He could have known his shit better than the licensees

What MBTI sites would you consider "closer to the real MBTI"? Are any really that different from personality page?

[Aiss]

The problem lies in the fact that when we speak of socionics-MBTI correlation here, we effectively attempt to establish a standard which would mostly be quoted by online MBTI communities. The latter use online descriptions, tests, and a multitude of prejudices and stereotypes, some of which have nothing to do with actual Jungian, MBTI or Keirsey typology. On top of this, though I can't find the source at the moment, apparently the creator of the system herself realized she assigned functions to dichotomies wrongly, that is, that most people who type IxxJs are Ji dominants and most people who type IxxPs are Pi dominants (she defined type as a result of the original test). This is often used by the same online communities to "repaint" INTJs into INTps without ever considering that it's supposed to make j/p dichotomy work with functions, rather than redefine it.

So in short, you get a lot of people who ask "INTJ or INTP?" and are told that "INTJs are doers and INTPs are whiners". Or something to that effect, more or less politely phrased. To hear INTJs describe themselves, you'd think they're mostly a bunch of ExTx with some IxTj thrown in the mix. Which they probably are. At any rate, the descriptions of Ni as a sudden "a-ha" feeling backed up with certainty (!), as contrasted to INTPs' constant doubt, definitely discouraged me from considering it prior to socionics. All in all, regardless of the infamous Lytov's table, I do suspect many if not majority of online-typed INTJs are socially introverted SLEs or LIEs.

[Aleksei]

Once I was of the same opinion as Crispy is. I had taken an MBTI test with INTJ as result and I related to the INTJ descriptions on the internet. But today I think that the personalitypage INTP rather describes a socionics INTj.

I've never read a book about MBTI but forum member Jarno says he has read about 10 MBTI books and INTP=INTp. Maybe the online descriptions are just inaccurate?

Descriptions in general have a high tendency to be inaccurate, because the relative simplicity of the system (it's based on a descending order of cognitive functions, nothing more) means that there is a somewhat high level of variation between people of different types. Which is about accurate, because no two people are alike. It's quite common, for example, for people to have the given order of functions of one type and fit the description of another type, due to their functions being out of order, or balanced. In this case they'd be the type that fits their functional order, rather than the one that fits their expressed behavior. I regularly test ENTJ for example, and I'm ENTP.

[The Exception]

How do you think the other introverted MBTI types match up with their corresponding socionic types? For example, would you say an MBTI ISFJ is more like a socionics ESI or SEI?