Pondering on Ni Ignoring (IEE/ILE)

[Marie84]

I suppose this is to be expected due to the 7th functions rivaling the base, but I've observed that Ne dominants tend to have a poor perception of remembering the approximate time of past occurrences. In this sense, the 7th function is similar to the 4th, the differences laying in being less concerned about criticism of the 7th, it's just an annoyance, is how I see it

For instance, the Ne dominants I've observed frequently draw huge gaps in the time of occurrences with seemingly little regard for how acute their timing is, to give a couple examples;

An ILE who often questions where something has gone, thinking that they have bought said object recently when in fact they didn't

ILE: Where is the [item]?
A: it's been used up/gone/spoiled a while ago
ILE: but I just bought it!
A: you bought it [a long time ago], it's been used/spoiled by now

or

IEE: I haven't seen so-and-so in such a long time, at least a year
A: You saw them 4 months ago
IEE: I thought it was longer


Has anyone noticed similar issues with ILE/IEE's in this reguard?

[Jarno]

Has anyone noticed similar issues with ILE/IEE's in this reguard?

no

[Marie84]

no

thanks.
I'm not even sure if this is in fact an Ni related issue or just a weird coincidence with the ones I know and thus it may not be Socionics related, hence the reason for the thread

[Jarno]

Einstein (ILE): "I never think about the future, it comes soon enough."

An IEE that I know: "I never think about my future'


So I guess, that's more how they use Ni. They just aren't concerned about the future. They simply....ignore it :-)

[stanprollyright]

It's not that our perception of time is poor, it's that we don't care. I tend to view timelines as if I'm on them looking backwards and forwards (static), whereas Ni egos see the timeline moving in front of them (dynamic).

[Wynch]

It's not so much that I'm not aware of timelines, so much as I don't really find them that relevant. The best example for me is the phrase "The other day". For most people that phrase means the recent past, but I tend to use it pretty liberally and will often say "The other day" when I mean "One day about three months ago" or something like that. It makes some of my friends laugh when they realize that I'm actually talking about something that happened a while ago.

While I hesitate to associate something like "time" to directly to Ni, I do see the point of a loose basis. I agree with Stan in the sense that I only really consider the past or future in relation to the present. That said, I see Ni as less particular about time and more about an awareness of the passage of time and how it is integrated with the dynamicism of a given event/process/idea, etc.

[Suz]

It's not that our perception of time is poor, it's that we don't care. I tend to view timelines as if I'm on them looking backwards and forwards (static), whereas Ni egos see the timeline moving in front of them (dynamic).

Yeah that sums it up pretty well actually, stan. Like I alluded to above, really the only situation in which I would care about not being late is if people are depending on me or if I'm meeting someone whom I would feel bad about making them wait, or like if it's a make or break situation (like showing up at an exam or interview).

My current boss is someone i'd feel bad making him wait, but luckily he's EII and he's always running late too, and he doesn't care that much if i'm like 5-10 mins late to my meetings with him (if he even notices ). That really takes the stress out of work for me!

[Blaze]

It's not that our perception of time is poor, it's that we don't care. I tend to view timelines as if I'm on them looking backwards and forwards (static), whereas Ni egos see the timeline moving in front of them (dynamic).

this.

not sure if this is Ni ignoring though.

the only thing i can say about time is that i'm constantly late, that i book things in approximations..."i'll be there in a half hour or so...." it drives people who care about being exactly on time absolutely crazy.

[717495]

So I guess, that's more how they use Ni. They just aren't concerned about the future. They simply....ignore it :-)

Well since you type me ILE, I'll just add my two cents. I don't ignore the future, its said in type descriptions that ILEs have a certain way of "planning out" (looking at) their future with their imagination, noting what possibilities they're attracted to, and what possibilities they'd really hate to be stuck with. But for me it happens to be very generalized and vague, like I clearly know what I want in a general sense (even if its only a tiny piece of the pie), but I don't really know if its going to be that way or if I'm really going to want it, or really what else there is to think about the future. It happens to be limited--basically the attitude "time will tell" instead of actually working with time and planning to make desired effect, or seeing how time and cause/affect effects things, paying close attention and having an established reasoning why x -> y. So it's more in an imaginary, anything is possible, hopeful spirit, sort of light, that I can think about the future.

But you're right, Ni is still ignored. Time isn't really looked at much, even if a great amount of my time is spent in reflection over things, sometimes past things.

[Azeroffs]

The way I understand it, Ne-base types are future oriented. Their main focus is on future potentials and the exploration of them. But, once they've satisfied their curiosity and things become too predictable, they need to move on. The only way they can stay stimulated is by their sense of wonder and curiosity. So, they can easily perceived as not future oriented because they are inclined toward constantly changing directions.

[Suz]

I suppose this is to be expected due to the 7th functions rivaling the base, but I've observed that Ne dominants tend to have a poor perception of remembering the approximate time of past occurrences. In this sense, the 7th function is similar to the 4th, the differences laying in being less concerned about criticism of the 7th, it's just an annoyance, is how I see it

For instance, the Ne dominants I've observed frequently draw huge gaps in the time of occurrences with seemingly little regard for how acute their timing is, to give a couple examples;

An ILE who often questions where something has gone, thinking that they have bought said object recently when in fact they didn't

ILE: Where is the [item]?
A: it's been used up/gone/spoiled a while ago
ILE: but I just bought it!
A: you bought it [a long time ago], it's been used/spoiled by now

or

IEE: I haven't seen so-and-so in such a long time, at least a year
A: You saw them 4 months ago
IEE: I thought it was longer


Has anyone noticed similar issues with ILE/IEE's in this reguard?

OMG this is a HUGE problem with me. Is that Ni ignoring???

Especially when a lot is going on with me, i will lose track of time, and something that happened a week ago will seem like it happened a few months ago, and something else that happened 6 months ago will seem like it happened just yesterday.

Even when i'm getting ready in the mornings, at some point i will remember to take note of the time, and then get caught up in preparations, thinking its still that time, then look at the watch and suddenly it's 30 minutes later and I'm late! That said, if i absolutely need to be somewhere at a certain time because people are depending on me to be there, i will be extra vigilant about checking the time and make sure i get there when i'm supposed to.

[stanprollyright]

OMG this is a HUGE problem with me. Is that Ni ignoring???

Especially when a lot is going on with me, i will lose track of time, and something that happened a week ago will seem like it happened a few months ago, and something else that happened 6 months ago will seem like it happened just yesterday.

I perceive events based on their significance, not how long ago they happened, so I guess I can relate to that. But it's not that I actually think those things happened yesterday or whatever.

Even when i'm getting ready in the mornings, at some point i will remember to take note of the time, and then get caught up in preparations, thinking its still that time, then look at the watch and suddenly it's 30 minutes later and I'm late! That said, if i absolutely need to be somewhere at a certain time because people are depending on me to be there, i will be extra vigilant about checking the time and make sure i get there when i'm supposed to.

This isn't Ni ignoring, that's just being absent-minded/irresponsible/irrational.

[Suz]

I perceive events based on their significance, not how long ago they happened, so I guess I can relate to that. But it's not that I actually think those things happened yesterday or whatever.

yeah I guess that's what i was trying to say.

This isn't Ni ignoring, that's just being absent-minded/irresponsible/irrational.

Um, thanks

But actually what i was describing in the part you quoted was exactly what you said about yourself too in regards to Ni ignoring: that we perceive time as static as opposed to flowing. When I look at the time, I pretty much stay in that time until the next time i look at the clock.

[ilikesex]

nnothing in this thread has anything todo with ni

[Jarno]

nnothing in this thread has anything todo with ni

what do you associate with Ni?

[Jarno]

nnothing in this thread has anything todo with ni

how would you know?

[anndelise]

I suppose this is to be expected due to the 7th functions rivaling the base, but I've observed that Ne dominants tend to have a poor perception of remembering the approximate time of past occurrences. In this sense, the 7th function is similar to the 4th, the differences laying in being less concerned about criticism of the 7th, it's just an annoyance, is how I see it

For instance, the Ne dominants I've observed frequently draw huge gaps in the time of occurrences with seemingly little regard for how acute their timing is, to give a couple examples;

An ILE who often questions where something has gone, thinking that they have bought said object recently when in fact they didn't

ILE: Where is the [item]?
A: it's been used up/gone/spoiled a while ago
ILE: but I just bought it!
A: you bought it [a long time ago], it's been used/spoiled by now

or

IEE: I haven't seen so-and-so in such a long time, at least a year
A: You saw them 4 months ago
IEE: I thought it was longer


Has anyone noticed similar issues with ILE/IEE's in this reguard?

Timing is an example of Ni, but Ni isn't Time.

Calendars and clocks are not natural timing systems, they are man made systems of codifying the passage of time. There is no evolutionary connection between the human mind and splitting the passage of time up into hours, minutes, seconds, weeks, months, etc.

Natural timing systems would be various cycles that occur. The rotation of the earth which gives us dawn, day, dusk, night. The cyclical relationship between the moon and the earth...of which our months don't actually follow, making 'months' ambiguous. The longer term cyclical relationship between the earth and the sun which leads to seasonal changes.

Where are the natural cycles for seconds? minutes? hours? weeks? etc

There are other timing systems that may fall under Ni. Such as one's breath, one's energy cycles, and even one's response systems. How long does it take for you to answer a question? Why would it take you that long? Are you hiding something? If you need to make sure that x happens, then you need to set y into motion. etc etc

These are but small examples of dynamic + implicit relationships/interactions.


In the OP's example, I don't see how the examples actually relate to the timing example of Ni. How does the brain process "recently"? "a while ago"? "a long time ago"? "4 months ago"?

To process any of those, they would need to be linked to something significant. If an item was purchased, say a food item which would spoil if not used within a certain time frame, what information would be required to anticipate the edible time frame?
* One could look at the date of expiration and then mark it on the calendar.
* One could mentally link it with an expected event, such as "I need to eat this before I go to my gf's house next weekend", or "this will last in the fridge for that picnic", etc.
* One could take into account what one knows about the type of food, how it spoils, and how long it will last under certain conditions.
* etc

One of the problems is that most foods in the stores aren't natural foods, they are boxed up, bottled up, canned up, etc. The sight of it is closed off from the senses, and requires an unnatural focus on man made calendars. If it was a tomato, one could see it start to shrivel up, and then know that it needs to be used quickly...or can guess at approximately how long it's been since it was purchased. But a can of beans?

Add to that is that all sorts of other things can influence how long such a product could last. Is the fridge at the right temp? Is the vegetable in the appropriate temperature zone? What influences that temperature zone? Was the person taught how to properly store the item so that it would stay fresher, longer? We can't forget cultural influences and teachings.

If an event happened in the past, how would the person remember it?
If it has a strong enough emotional tie to it, then a person has a better chance of remember the event. But how to remember how far back the event happened? The brain doesn't know the difference between what is real and what is imagined...it's all triggering the same things. So to think back on an event, it doesn't really know the calendar age of when the event happened, remembering the event is in effect having the brain go through the event again...now..at the time of remembering it.

We can put it along a time line of other remembered events or other emotions. Event X happened...which was before Event Y...which was sometime before Event Z. Event Z happened when Event P happened, which was on Date D. And then an approximation is given as to when an event happened.

For example, my daughter's birth was when I was 24, I remember this because I keep confusing her birth year and the age I was when she was born. I remember the date only because I've had to fill out so much paperwork over the years that ask over and over again what the date of her birth is. I remember my own birthday because of a) filling out the paperwork over and over, and b) because of it's unusualness (leap day)...but I certainly don't remember it because of the emotions occurring at the time of being born.


Back before the advent of the man made calendars and such, I'm willing to bet that it was the Ni people who spent most of their time working out the timings of events and such, using the various cycles occurring as their tools. Paying attention to astronomical events, such as the cycles and locations of mercury to certain constellations would allow a person to anticipate at what point a child would be 'old enough' to start his own family. Or paying attention to seasonal changes occurring in a given location, and being able to anticipate when to plant seeds or reap harvests, or when it will be time to move to a more southernly location, etc.

But for modern day? The brain still isn't evolved to break up timing into seconds, weeks, months, etc. So even modern day Ni's would have difficulties with 'being on time', and 'forgetting when an event occurred', and even for 'forgetting what day it is today'.

[Aiss]

I don't associate Ni with time as much as with consequences, a turn of events as opposed to points in time. Events are related to each other - never mind if it was a cause-effect thing or not; there's a dynamic quality to it which translates into timelines, but isn't one. This results in some timing-related skills, but Ni isn't dependent on time, it works the same in other areas. I'm mostly opposed to associating Ni with time because it seems to make most people think of it as "objective", single and linear timeline, on which events are mixed by relation but chronologically ordered, which is about as far from Ni as I can imagine. It's by their relation to each other - like interweaving threads - that the actual timing is worked out when needed. These relations aren't really fixed or stable, but I have no better word at the moment. Pretty much as anndelise described, except I'd say the focus is more on "X must have happened after/before Y, because of Z".

FWIW, I can usually pretty accurately tell when something happened, though it's a purely associative process, making what I recall about the event match with related events. Regarding the future, I find it easy to maneuvre so that timing is to my advantage.

[Gilly]

I suppose this is to be expected due to the 7th functions rivaling the base, but I've observed that Ne dominants tend to have a poor perception of remembering the approximate time of past occurrences. In this sense, the 7th function is similar to the 4th, the differences laying in being less concerned about criticism of the 7th, it's just an annoyance, is how I see it

For instance, the Ne dominants I've observed frequently draw huge gaps in the time of occurrences with seemingly little regard for how acute their timing is, to give a couple examples;

An ILE who often questions where something has gone, thinking that they have bought said object recently when in fact they didn't

ILE: Where is the [item]?
A: it's been used up/gone/spoiled a while ago
ILE: but I just bought it!
A: you bought it [a long time ago], it's been used/spoiled by now

or

IEE: I haven't seen so-and-so in such a long time, at least a year
A: You saw them 4 months ago
IEE: I thought it was longer


Has anyone noticed similar issues with ILE/IEE's in this reguard?

That's more weak Si/Te.

[Azeroffs]

I think it's important to note that time is an illusion created by memory and sense of long-term cause and effect. All that really exists is the transformation of space. The way I understand it, Ni's functioning is responsible for the awareness of what we call time. As said, Ni isn't only the awareness of time, but it is a big aspect of it. Ni is the connection of particular instances or moments in memory, the relation between them, the cause and effect, reaction. Actually, that's a bit unclear because Si is the same. The difference is that Si's connections are directly observable. Strong Si is like noticing how the wind effects every blade of grass, leaf, and all other details. Basically Si is the awareness of what actually dynamically exists, the transformation of space. Ni otoh, sees no details, uses no senses and gets the same effect. Ni is expectation. What would happen if the wind blew across the same field I spoke of before? Strong Ni can tell you without having ever seen it, but Ni types are aware that their expectations aren't empirical, and that is why they are characterized by doubt and uncertainty.

Ni-ignoring disregards this expectation. They see opportunity or potential. Things that could be or might be. They see alternatives to that which is real. Strong feelings of expectation render this awareness useless. What point is there in seeing what could be when one could reasonably expect that it will or won't be. Ne types need experience, and they need to explore. They need to know for sure whether or not the possibilities can or can't happen, and anything that isn't real shouldn't limit the infinite horizon of possibilities.

[Suz]

I think it's important to note that time is an illusion created by memory and sense of long-term cause and effect. All that really exists is the transformation of space. The way I understand it, Ni's functioning is responsible for the awareness of what we call time. As said, Ni isn't only the awareness of time, but it is a big aspect of it. Ni is the connection of particular instances or moments in memory, the relation between them, the cause and effect, reaction. Actually, that's a bit unclear because Si is the same. The difference is that Si's connections are directly observable. Strong Si is like noticing how the wind effects every blade of grass, leaf, and all other details. Basically Si is the awareness of what actually dynamically exists, the transformation of space. Ni otoh, sees no details, uses no senses and gets the same effect. Ni is expectation. What would happen if the wind blew across the same field I spoke of before? Strong Ni can tell you without having ever seen it, but Ni types are aware that their expectations aren't empirical, and that is why they are characterized by doubt and uncertainty.

Ni-ignoring disregards this expectation. They see opportunity or potential. Things that could be or might be. They see alternatives to that which is real. Strong feelings of expectation render this awareness useless. What point is there in seeing what could be when one could reasonably expect that it will or won't be. Ne types need experience, and they need to explore. They need to know for sure whether or not the possibilities can or can't happen, and anything that isn't real shouldn't limit the infinite horizon of possibilities.

This is my understanding of Ni as well.

[Azeroffs]

So about Ne-base having poor perception of time...

I don't think there is much relation except for that they might not give it much consideration. However IEE, might have a poor perception of time because they will have a poor perception of measurement coupled with little consideration for time. They have a hard time relating to numbers. Like what does 20min feel like? 1hr? 10hrs? The quantification of time.

[Marie84]

It's not that our perception of time is poor, it's that we don't care. I tend to view timelines as if I'm on them looking backwards and forwards (static), whereas Ni egos see the timeline moving in front of them (dynamic).

It's not so much that I'm not aware of timelines, so much as I don't really find them that relevant. The best example for me is the phrase "The other day". For most people that phrase means the recent past, but I tend to use it pretty liberally and will often say "The other day" when I mean "One day about three months ago" or something like that. It makes some of my friends laugh when they realize that I'm actually talking about something that happened a while ago.

While I hesitate to associate something like "time" to directly to Ni, I do see the point of a loose basis. I agree with Stan in the sense that I only really consider the past or future in relation to the present. That said, I see Ni as less particular about time and more about an awareness of the passage of time and how it is integrated with the dynamicism of a given event/process/idea, etc.

I think it's important to note that time is an illusion created by memory and sense of long-term cause and effect. All that really exists is the transformation of space. The way I understand it, Ni's functioning is responsible for the awareness of what we call time. As said, Ni isn't only the awareness of time, but it is a big aspect of it. Ni is the connection of particular instances or moments in memory, the relation between them, the cause and effect, reaction. Actually, that's a bit unclear because Si is the same. The difference is that Si's connections are directly observable. Strong Si is like noticing how the wind effects every blade of grass, leaf, and all other details. Basically Si is the awareness of what actually dynamically exists, the transformation of space. Ni otoh, sees no details, uses no senses and gets the same effect. Ni is expectation. What would happen if the wind blew across the same field I spoke of before? Strong Ni can tell you without having ever seen it, but Ni types are aware that their expectations aren't empirical, and that is why they are characterized by doubt and uncertainty.

Ni-ignoring disregards this expectation. They see opportunity or potential. Things that could be or might be. They see alternatives to that which is real. Strong feelings of expectation render this awareness useless. What point is there in seeing what could be when one could reasonably expect that it will or won't be. Ne types need experience, and they need to explore. They need to know for sure whether or not the possibilities can or can't happen, and anything that isn't real shouldn't limit the infinite horizon of possibilities.

Thank you, I think this answers what I was getting at, this makes a lot of sense now

[xerx]

I definitely don't care nor have a clue about estimating the time to do something. I naturally assume that I can accomplish a project within a few hours, when the reality is that it often takes me a month or longer. Past failures don't shake my confidence for some reason.

[pianosinger]

My Ni-base husband has a much harder time keeping track of the time than I do. I am always paying attention to the clock, and I usually have a pretty good idea how long any given task will take-- though if I err, I usually try to err on the side of caution and give myself more time than I think I'll need. I am almost always early to appointments; my Ni-base husband is always late; when we're going somewhere together, this usually means we're right on time lol