How is Ti PoLR manifested in ENFps and ESFps?

[niffer]

For example:

A friend tells an IEE a car bomb was set in their city and appeared on the news
IEE worries about the friend and calls them in a panic "oh no don't go to work. Stay home."

The friend may have work or live away from the actual center of the bomb where the emergency may not have much affect on their day to day doings. But again emotion for a friend masks analysis. This is where EII do better at Ti and ask the friend "how far is it from you?" The friend may say 20miles and EII would say "go about your business " lol

...

[niffer]

Fucking hell. You're still not getting it. No, potentials are not associations, nor are they connections, and "connecting-the-dots" absolutely requires a field element. For reference, LSIs are stronger in both Ni and Ti than SLEs are, both of which are field elements, and field elements are needed for context and making connections. I'm not going to reply anymore, this is just sad.

Goodbye.

[LuckyOne]

This thread is a good example of Ti-PoLR manifestations. Uncontrolled emotionality and hysterical reactions to logical discussion sustaining over ... 1 minute .
The guys number of posts has nothing to do with the point s/he makes but that is the focus in answering. Not Ti for sure. Te HA wanting more proof rather than things making sense.
Niffer - SEE-Fi

More weak Ti from the other chinese. Just a couple of days ago, she was posting about how Ti creatives deal with Ti PoLR with being so sure .. 2days later she becomes Ti Suggestive herself

YES!, which is what I've been arguing in PMs to several people insisting I was SLE non stop, yet it apparently wasn't believable (lol) until I stepped on their toes. That's why I said I was happy to see them get mad, because whenever two people of the same type fiercely fight each other here, is guaranteed that at least one of them will declare the other can't possible be it too

Just one thing: not every Asian is Chinese, and that's not even me in the picture. I know your name is "Mr Innapropriate", but you don't have to that so literally

Does that prove I'm Ego?

[Beautiful sky]

Now continuing...

If you tell the IEE that it's away from her and won't have much affection on her the IEE jumps to Ne

That looks like this

IEE: well it's possible that it can happen again.

Avoiding Ti at this point and jumping to possible avenue of future development

The polr is a point of ignore, avoid, not focus, stress ignore

[Singu]

does anyone actually know what they're talking about, or is this all just a bunch of bullshit

[niffer]

does anyone actually know what they're talking about, or is this all just a bunch of bullshit

You're the #1 person who needs to ask yourself this actually.

It seems like all the people who have participated so far have been quite knowledgeable. So yes, you can feel free to absorb information from it.

[Mr inappropriate]

YES!, which is what I've been arguing in PMs to several people insisting I was SLE non stop, yet it apparently wasn't believable (lol) until I stepped on their toes. That's why I said I was happy to see them get mad, because whenever two people of the same type fiercely fight each other here, is guaranteed that at least one of them will declare the other can't possible be it too

Just one thing: not every Asian is Chinese, and that's not even me in the picture. I know your name is "Mr Innapropriate", but you don't have to that so literally

Does that prove I'm Ego?

From what I see, you are pretty chatty and not afraid of long conversations . EF type . Not sure, or is valued. SEE shouldnt be excluded. Where do you see yourself creating sth in a Ni field to justify EIE ? I can see you are easily bulding friendships/alliances with several people here for Fi creative.

I'm sad that you are not Chinese. I thought "Location: Seoul, South Korea" was a small town in China.

[LuckyOne]

From what I see, you are pretty chatty and not afraid of long conversations . EF type . Not sure, or is valued. SEE shouldnt be excluded. Where do you see yourself creating sth in a Ni field to justify EIE ? I can see you are easily bulding friendships/alliances with several people here for Fi creative.

I'm sad that you are not Chinese. I thought "Location: Seoul, South Korea" was a small town in China.

I excluded SEE before because people kept pushing the idea I should have the hots for ILIs, which I don't. I'm half joking. Excluding analysing people, building theories and ethical relations, in artistic projects, specially my music and the visuals that accompany it.

Yes, I'm saddened by this fact myself every morning when I open the curtains and realize I'm not in Beijin

It fits because these alliances are as quickly formed as they are dropped

[niffer]

To help readers understand what happened easier: Ne is not associated with the word "connections" in socionics discourse. Field element IEs create connections (Ne isn't one). I wasn't using those definitions or that discourse though. I was explaining what Ne does in layman's terms.

[Beautiful sky]

I excluded SEE before because people kept pushing the idea I should have the hots for ILIs, which I don't. I'm half joking. Excluding Ethical relations, in artistic projects, specially my music and the visuals that accompany it.

Yes, I'm saddened by this fact myself every morning when I open the curtains and realize I'm not in Beijin

Yes it fits because these alliances are as quickly formed as they are dropped

How many connections do you wish to make here on this forum?

[LuckyOne]

To help readers understand what happened easier: Ne is not associated with the word "connections" in socionics discourse. Field element IEs create connections (Ne isn't one). I wasn't using those definitions or that discourse though. I was explaining what Ne does in layman's terms.

You know when I shared IEE results I got in all Socionics tests I got a few days ago (lol) somewhere else, I had someone tell me that was precisely what was. Yep.

How many connections do you wish to make here on this forum?

I love variety, but my priority is quality. I also prefer for links to be formed naturally, otherwise it already starts on the wrong foot. And if it starts wrong, then it'll end worse. I can of course see the irony now

[niffer]

You know when I shared IEE results I got in all Socionics tests I got a few days ago (lol) somewhere else, I had someone tell me that was precisely what was. Yep.

You mean connections right? Yeah, it's a fairly common idea in the typology community (not sure if you were on a socionics-focused forum), which is why I used it and thought the context and understanding would be transferred fine here. It's kind of a carry-over from MBTI ideas though, which in a way is not ideal, but there are a lot of MBTI ideas/insights/stereotypes which still hold truth on some level.

[LuckyOne]

You mean connections right? Yeah, it's a fairly common idea in the typology community (not sure if you were on a socionics-focused forum), which is why I used it and thought the context and understanding would be transferred fine here. It's kind of a carry-over from MBTI ideas though, which in a way is not ideal, but there are a lot of MBTI ideas/insights/stereotypes which still hold truth on some level.

The person is anti-MBTI, would you believe it?

[niffer]

The person is anti-MBTI, would you believe it?

Hm....if you wanted to link it, I'd be interested in reading the post. Here or in PM. TIA.

[LuckyOne]

Hm....if you wanted to link it, I'd be interested in reading the post. Here or in PM. TIA.

I only saved the test results but deleted the messages

I stumbled on a globalized post...very illuminating.

[wasp]

TL;DR Ti PoLR is knowing, but failing to understand what it is you know. cue circulatory word vomit.

I just witnessed a debate between an IEE and two gamma NTs (LIE and ILI) and, from what I observed, it ultimately came down to a series of inconsistencies and fallacies snowballing into an incoherent, essentially unsalvageable (why isn't this a word yet?) argument, from the IEE's end. the longer the debate persisted, the weaker the IEE's argument got, as the gamma NTs nitpicked it into oblivion. so, Fi creative types seem to have a knack for drawing observers onto their side by appealing to their sense of humanity, but once the topic of semantics (or fallacies) comes up, their argument slowly crumbles. it led to a battle of ad hominems, wherein the IEE took personal offense to their criticisms and resorted to making harsh judgments on their character to detract from the main argument. (however, I'll concede that the gamma NTs were being condescending toward the IEE) in turn, the IEE attempted to disprove the gamma NT's fallacious claims, but, in doing so, the IEE inadvertently weakened their own argument, as the IEE never once made an attempt to nitpick the gamma NT's arguments. instead, they opted to "clear their name".

the issue lied not in the IEE making weak points, but in failing to connect these points in a linear, cohesive manner. so, I'd probably describe Ti PoLR with the help of Te HA, in that, although xEEs know things, they don't quite understand how these things connect to each other, let alone how to use these connections to construct an argument. just imagine someone throwing several "facts" (with no real backing) at you, ad nauseam, without any intention of explaining the relevance or rationale behind these facts. they choose facts (Te) that correspond with their ethics (Fi), where the former is used to reinforce the latter ("means to an end"), which, in turn, results in a biased, often emotional, misrepresentation of these facts.

[Bertrand]

if someone is making good points but you're attacking them only on the grounds they're not connected in a linear cohesive manner I feel like you're wasting everyone's time. Just do it for them or walk away; you haven't changed the truth of the matter by being some kind of human proofreader, and if that's what you want to be then be it

(not you, but the NTs in question)

[niffer]

if someone is making good points but you're attacking them only on the grounds they're not connected in a linear cohesive manner I feel like you're wasting everyone's time. Just do it for them or walk away; you haven't changed the truth of the matter by being some kind of human proofreader, and if that's what you want to be then be it

(not you, but the NTs in question)

Can't speak for whatever happened in paranoid's situation, but the main problem I find with this is that if the points are thrown around randomly, their overarching point or argument usually isn't obvious in the first place. With some Ti polrs, this involves a lot of patience and total reinterpretation of everything they've said to "do it for them". And on top of that, a lot of them usually have the attitude of being self-proclaimed geniuses and some of them also easily dismiss or discredit the ideas and authority of others too. These behaviours are a clusterfuck of annoyingness and create a lot of frustration and resentment. Or at least, that's how I experience it.

[Bertrand]

Can't speak for whatever happened in paranoid's situation, but the main problem I find with this is that if the points are thrown around randomly, their overarching point or argument usually isn't obvious in the first place. With some Ti polrs, this involves a lot of patience and total reinterpretation of everything they've said to "do it for them". And on top of that, a lot of them usually have the attitude of being self-proclaimed geniuses and some of them also easily dismiss or discredit the ideas and authority of others too. These behaviours are a clusterfuck of annoyingness and create a lot of frustration and resentment. Or at least, that's how I experience it.

yeah I think I'm just programmed to find it endearing, whereas I can see how others perceive it as both lazy and egotistical. fortunately, as a lazy and egotistical person, I don't hold that against them (the upity IEE in question), and feel like its these other people's responsibility; after all the IEE has done their part which is to supply the base material--let the others work the details to their satisfaction. honestly if the IEE could do it all themselves there'd be no point to these other types anyway

[niffer]

yeah I think I'm just programmed to find it endearing, whereas I can see how others perceive it as both lazy and egotistical. fortunately, as a lazy and egotistical person, I don't hold that against them (the upity IEE in question), and feel like its these other people's responsibility; after all the IEE has done their part which is to supply the base material--let the others work the details to their satisfaction. honestly if the IEE could do it all themselves there'd be no point to these other types anyway

what does the IEE exist for then, to annoy them and waste their time?

lol i guess if you find that endearing, it's worth it for someone at least

[Bertrand]

what does the IEE exist for then, to annoy them and waste their time?

lol i guess if you find that endearing, it's worth it for someone at least

to annoy everyone that isn't me so they're all mine muhaha

[niffer]

to annoy everyone that isn't me so they're all mine muhaha

i love it lol. the beauty of #duality

[Chae]

to annoy everyone that isn't me so they're all mine muhaha

And I collect all the shy SLI baby boys and gurls to squeeze them extra tight. In multiple ways. Because a PoLR doesn't matter when you have a huge dual harem dripping with

[Myst]

at last!

I've read this article before. I already know about this. "Obviously you aren't going to compare the potentials of two things if you don't even look at their potentials - that's a given, and nobody is arguing that." Good, this was my only point. Maybe you take issue to the use of the term "connections" in the way I did, but seeing "connections", "potential", "associations", are all effectively the exact same thing here. I said it helps in "making" or "seeing" connections, not that Ne itself only does the connecting necessarily. This is why Ne polrs have trouble seeing the context that everyone else is seeing so obviously, all the time, which happened over and over in this thread. It's like they're playing a join-dot game, and they see all the dots, but they can't see the full image. They know how to draw the dots (using Ni), but they can't draw them without seeing the full picture (using Ne). This is what makes them reluctant to draw the dots / make those connections in this sense in the first place.

Well what I have trouble seeing is the abstract Ne object of whatever situation or aspect of situation. That object is contextual, yes, of course not using that Socionics terminology now about fields/bodies. The object and the sum of all such objects on a situation also has the Ne potential. Strong Ne will see many such objects as various possibilities of the situation (Ni will also see possibilities, just not in this object oriented way).

To see that abstract object, I would indeed have to see a certain type of connections, that's not fields in Socionics. The best understanding I personally got so far is, the requirement to seeing the Ne object is an ability to see how aspects of the object (notice we are still talking about an extraverted element/body here) are built up from intuitively perceiving how these aspects are seen in the context of other ideas to then create the (perception of the) object itself.

I can't really go further than this in describing this, I can't imagine too well how seeing those aspects works. I really just drew a parallel between how Se sees objects and between what I observed about Ne types.

What do you say @squark, make sense to you as to what I meant if explained in this way?

Let's simplify this for you. Internal statics of objects we'll bring to a single word: potential. Now, to compare the potential of one thing to the potential of something else you have to use a field element: Ni, Si, Ti or Fi. Only field elements connect anything. Obviously you aren't going to compare the potentials of two things if you don't even look at their potentials - that's a given, and nobody is arguing that. However, making any kind of connection of anything with anything requires a field element. Object elements do not connect anything. Myst was lumping Ni and Ne together as "intuition" imo. Ni does make connections - it's a field element. Ne does not. Just read the link I gave you, maybe it'll help. Or don't. Whatever.

No, I was not lumping together Ni and Ne. The simplest way I can put this - how does Ne see potential if you don't look very far in your perception from what you sense? Think about that.

No, potentials are not associations, nor are they connections, and "connecting-the-dots" absolutely requires a field element. For reference, LSIs are stronger in both Ni and Ti than SLEs are, both of which are field elements, and field elements are needed for context and making connections.

I think what you should look at in Socionics theory is the idea that I already mentioned earlier in this thread about how each function processes information by seeing patterns of its own type of information, connecting the dots for the bits of that type of information, organizing it on some level where the level is determined by dimensionality / strength of the information processing function. 1D would connect a few dots painstakingly but not see patterns on the level of norms and 2D would not see how to organize the normative patterns in a flexible way in the current situation's context like 3D can and so on.

So in that way, you have to get specific about what you mean by connecting the dots or organizing information etc because that is incredibly general wording without specifying further.

[Myst]

@squark @niffer

My favourite article on what Ne is

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...p/395-Ne-Blobs

[wasp]

if someone is making good points but you're attacking them only on the grounds they're not connected in a linear cohesive manner I feel like you're wasting everyone's time. Just do it for them or walk away; you haven't changed the truth of the matter by being some kind of human proofreader, and if that's what you want to be then be it

(not you, but the NTs in question)

see, I thought the same thing at first, like, "why is it such a big deal?" but then the IEE sent me screenshots outlining where and how the disagreement came about, and I actually had no idea what the IEE was arguing until I read the ILI's rebuttal. it was quite literally word vomit, like I can see that you're arguing something, but what that "something" is, I have no idea. you've said this and that, but how does it all come together?

consistency of thought isn't obligatory in a monologue (like, let's say, a blog post, or Hamlet's soliloquy) but, in a dialogue, especially one where one or both parties are engaged in a proactive exchange of ideas, such as a debate, the conversation will quickly go to shit if coherency, clarity, and/or consistency are lost on one or both parties. most arguments stem from misunderstandings, then it's a battle of egos. the same principle can be applied to debates. it's like playing a game of broken telephone, or arguing with someone who speaks a different language than you.

TL;DR it's on you (and me, and anyone else, for that matter) to make sense, not on everyone else to make sense of you, for you.

[Beautiful sky]

And I collect all the shy SLI baby boys and gurls to squeeze them extra tight. In multiple ways. Because a PoLR doesn't matter when you have a huge dual harem dripping with

lol I read this

[Myst]

yeah I think I'm just programmed to find it endearing, whereas I can see how others perceive it as both lazy and egotistical. fortunately, as a lazy and egotistical person, I don't hold that against them (the upity IEE in question), and feel like its these other people's responsibility; after all the IEE has done their part which is to supply the base material--let the others work the details to their satisfaction. honestly if the IEE could do it all themselves there'd be no point to these other types anyway

Well the EIE also has 1D Ti and supplies all the base material for me to work out the details. And I have infinite patience for that. Yet when the IEE does this, I can't work it out for them. I. Just. Can't. Believe me I tried my best before with some IEEs. It was just a frustrating experience on both sides in each case/with each IEE. No matter how good the intentions were originally on both sides.

(Of course some really superficial social convo works with any type, I'm talking about going beyond that. Oh and for some reason I can actually discuss socionics theory a bit with IEEs but that's about it.)

Still interested in that PoLR reinforcing thingy. You got anything on that? Just let me know if not.

PS: I don't know why you switched to typing as SLI, ILI works for you. You seem too abstract and grasping intuitive stuff readily for SLI

[niffer]

@Myst
@Bertrand is ILI final to me too, for numerous reasons. And I'll get to your points soon.~

[Bertrand]

betas gon beta, I can't stop you, but I'm not going to engage

its like they interpret everything I do as some kind of come on or cry for help

I don't want your help

this is not a light act of resistance meant to excite you

find your EIE/IEIs

stop looking at me

[niffer]

betas gon beta, I can't stop you, but I'm not going to engage

*shakes butt*

[Chae]

lol I read this

Robert approves!

[Myst]

betas gon beta, I can't stop you, but I'm not going to engage

its like they interpret everything I do as some kind of come on or cry for help

I don't want your help

this is not a light act of resistance meant to excite you

find your EIE/IEIs

stop looking at me

Help in...?

[Beautiful sky]

You know when I shared IEE results I got in all Socionics tests I got a few days ago (lol) somewhere else, I had someone tell me that was precisely what was. Yep.




I love variety, but my priority is quality. I also prefer for links to be formed naturally, otherwise it already starts on the wrong foot. And if it starts wrong, then it'll end worse. I can of course see the irony now

Interesting. You show forward thinking here. Well not wanting to push relationships is kind of the Fi devalued. Um also interesting that you look at the end result in a situation where so many things can happen but that you only look at the worst case of what can happen. Start bad end bad seems so linear or negativist. Still have to think about that. Maybe you are Ej.

Another question: do you divert blame off your shoulders and on to something or someone else as to avoid attention?

[Myst]

Interesting. You show forward thinking here. Well not wanting to push relationships is kind of the Fi devalued. Um also interesting that you look at the end result in a situation where so many things can happen but that you only look at the worst case of what can happen. Start bad end bad seems so linear or negativist. Still have to think about that. Maybe you are Ej.

Another question: do you divert blame off your shoulders and on to something or someone else as to avoid attention?

Not Ti DS.

[Beautiful sky]

Not Ti DS.

She's either IEE or EIE

[The Reality Denialist]

My SEE sister was not able to go school when our mother died for several months. Started somme drug abuse later and took a while (years) until she was OK .

(yeah and I sound like a monster from every angle despite I was always in good terms with my mother and never had so called stromy stuff going on and I was there to help her with her sickness which she was hiding from everyone)

[Beautiful sky]

My SEE sister was not able to go school when our mother died for several months.

(yeah and I sound like a monster from every angle despite I was always in good terms with my mother and never had so called stromy stuff going on and I was there to help her with her sickness which she was hiding from everyone)

I'm so sorry

Was she emotionally paralyzed?

[The Reality Denialist]

I'm so sorry

Was she emotionally paralyzed?

She spent her with relatives and pretty much distanced herself from everyone. Then later on did some drugs dropped from school etc. She's been OK for years.

[Myst]

She's either IEE or EIE

IEE is possible, sure, though I'm not 100% sure what caused those constant misunderstandings between her and me in the thread.