Has Arizona gone completely nuts?

[Eldanen]

First, please don't condescendingly refer to me as baby.

Second, the purpose of history class is not to teach about "white" or "black" history; rather, it is to learn about the important events that have shaped society so that people will have a solid foundation of contextual knowledge with which to judge current events. Adding a particular race's history into the curriculum for the purpose of "fairness" is not conducive to actual learning, especially given how politically motivated the curriculum is. Why am I being forced to learn something just to make a group of people feel better?

Third, there is not any equivalent, official or de facto, of "white history month." In my college history class, I learned about Western Civilization, and the curriculum, for blatantly politically correct purposes, constantly mentioned African Civilization and women. So it's not like our classes don't already inject black history into the curriculum.

Fourth, you may wish to consider why a hypothetical history class would primarily talk about the history of Caucasian peoples. Might it have something to do with societal contribution?

By the way, my role model is a black person, so I'd like to offer you a preemptive STFU in the event of any racism accusations.

Actually, I was agreeing with you, lol.

[somavision]

Well I think if I were black I might feel rather singled out and given some sort of "you're so special because of your ethnicity" award during that entire month, and once again I wouldn't be able to simply be a person and think of myself as simply a person without all these constant reminders that I'm actually not a person, but a black person (a person who always comes with a caveat). This is generally why I find it insulting, and I find it as an excuse to not actually fix problems of representation by just throwing it in on the side as though that makes it all better (kind of like the two pages of "what were black people doing during such and such time?" in a history book). And it needn't be black history month--I would feel this way as a member of any "group" that has a special day/month devoted to it. I mean other people might feel differently about this, but anyway. And maybe I am under-representing the purpose/meaning of a cultural identity (which can be powerful and a source of strength/identity) as I don't personally feel attached to any such identity and like feeling I don't have to have one. My feeling of it being insulting though rests on how I think I would feel in such a situation and how I could understand one might feel. Of course having history taught to me that completely neglected the history of those of my ethnic group as though we don't exist at all and never did except in mere snippets would also feel unfair and insulting... but I might rather be invisible than directly insulted by having a special month that I'm supposed to feel proud about and that again ties me as belonging to a group, where I can never be free of it.

This is getting really off topic. I didn't really want to say much on the actual topic as I'm not quite sure what has happened (I consistently neglect to watch/read the news) and I know that tcaudilllg tends to exaggerate.

I agree with what your saying, it's a difficult issue. I'm speculating a little bit here, but it seems to me that in a lot of ways that before the civil rights movement that White American History and Black American History were divided, perhaps having a month dedicated to recognising that segmentation is an attempt to bring together the two histories and recognise a unified future history. As I said speculating alot. Regarding invisibility, the focus is on shaping broader perceptions rather than immediate feelings of self awareness due to attention being drawn to oneself. Anyway, I agree with alot of what you said, I don't know how this is presented, I personally am interested in looking into this more, especially as someone with an interest in American history from a foreigners point of view.

[tcaudilllg]

Until racism is a crime (and it should be), we need all the public hedges against it that we can muster.

[Eldanen]

Until racism is a crime (and it should be), we need all the public hedges against it that we can muster.

What do you mean by racism? What exactly would that entail? What act would someone be committing that would be punishable by law?

[tcaudilllg]

What do you mean by racism? What exactly would that entail? What act would someone be committing that would be punishable by law?

1) Any organized activity which exalts discrimination on basis of ethnicity
2) the promotion of hate speech against any ethnic group

[Krig the Viking]

I'll agree with the crappy tax structure, but not the overly high minimum wage part. At least here in CA, it's just about impossible to live on minimum wage as it is. If they cut it down even further we'd have even more problems with poverty and people with jobs forced to live on the streets than we already do.

Ah, but if employers didn't have to pay their employees as much, they would be able to charge less for their product and/or service, no? That's one of the main reasons the North American auto industry is in trouble -- powerful unions have driven up employee wages, forcing the companies to either jack up the prices of their cars to unaffordable levels, or start producing cheaper cars for the same price to cut costs. Both courses of action result in lower sales, and lower sales mean not being able to pay the bills, which means layoffs and factory closures.
Lower wages = lower price for the final product. Applied across the board, that means a lower cost of living in general.

[xerx]

Save your Confederate money boys!

[GallopingQwerty]

Ah, but if employers didn't have to pay their employees as much, they would be able to charge less for their product and/or service, no?

Yeah, but you're living in a dream world if you think they would. Supply and demand will always dictate prices: as long as people are willing to pay more, the prices will stay high. Just look at the huge uproar over gas prices in the US: when enough people stopped buying gas, they drastically reduced the rate. However, since then it has slowly climbed back up again (almost to $4 per gallon just like it was last year)... the oil companies are getting the same record profits they did last year, but because no one is boycotting the pumps they see no reason to bring prices down to a level that would help our economy improve on a large scale.

They keep the prices high because they can. The same would be true even if employers suddenly were allowed to pay their employees less.

[FDG]

If I travel to Arizona and purposefully forget my documents, are they going to pay me a trip to Mexico? It might be a good opportunity to save some money.

Re @ minimum wage: abolishing minimum wage only works insofar as the government provides some kind of "wage compensation" for people whose wage doesn't allow them to make ends meet (obviously, here the defintion is arbitary). This type of policy does shift the burden from the companies to the government, although ultimately there will be a form of redistribution via higher taxation.

[tcaudilllg]

If I travel to Arizona and purposefully forget my documents, are they going to pay me a trip to Mexico? It might be a good opportunity to save some money.

Re @ minimum wage: abolishing minimum wage only works insofar as the government provides some kind of "wage compensation" for people whose wage doesn't allow them to make ends meet (obviously, here the defintion is arbitary). This type of policy does shift the burden from the companies to the government, although ultimately there will be a form of redistribution via higher taxation.

Well you'd get an arraignment, in which the arresting officer would have to prove his case that you are there illegally. (I think?)

[tcaudilllg]

Kim, what are you going to do if more states pass laws like this?

At first I was kinda excited about all of this. But now it's just looking stupid.

Here's some recent commentary on the issue.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/05/1...#disqus_thread

[mu4]

Ah, but if employers didn't have to pay their employees as much, they would be able to charge less for their product and/or service, no? That's one of the main reasons the North American auto industry is in trouble -- powerful unions have driven up employee wages, forcing the companies to either jack up the prices of their cars to unaffordable levels, or start producing cheaper cars for the same price to cut costs. Both courses of action result in lower sales, and lower sales mean not being able to pay the bills, which means layoffs and factory closures.
Lower wages = lower price for the final product. Applied across the board, that means a lower cost of living in general.

Actually if you look at what happened to unions. McCarthyism took the intellectual force for the unions out of this country, they went into exile or were imprisoned leaving organized crime and people backed by them to fill in for them. They started to adopt techniques and practices used by organized crime and formed into what we have today, a militant and aggressive organization more bullies then negotiators for their constituents. Kinda of reminds me of America in general.

If you look at the rhetoric of people like McCarthy, it's always the same, these people are taking your jobs, these people are committing crimes, but it's often also rooted in their fear, insecurities and displaced res-sentiment. It doesn't take a immigrant or even a illegal immigrant for crime to happen or for their jobs to be taken as long as they do a poor job.

Any call of tolerance for civil rights and minorities rights has been usually associated with communism, liberalism and various other "left-wing" sympathies in the US. These people aren't "patriotic", are "leeches" and what not, the truth is that a big portion of the people buying into this form of rhetoric are the leeches, but they channel their ressentiment towards others, often even more stressed and despairing then themselves. In other words, the character of a bully.

[mu4]

Yes, this sort of this is not pretty and there are dangers that need to be kept in mind and worked out as it is implimented in the real world. But action needs to be taken, the feds are not taking those actions in any way that is resolving this problem, so we as a state are being left with the ugly (but nessesary) task of doing it for ourselves or at least creating enough of a ruccus that the feds do their job and deal with it for us.

BG, I'm going to be tough on you.
Why not ship of all the drug users and dealers to Mexico and give a every illegal or immigrant worker a citizenship paper. Well, Mexico wouldn't like that and neither would other people in the US.

All the small government people talk about how government infringes on our way of life, and well here they are, infringing on people's lives, except with swat teams and handcuffs, not tax forms and paperwork.

I much prefer tax forms and paper work to swat teams ad handcuffs.

These laws were made so hateful people like that sheriff in Arizona can have the power to commit brutality on others in a legal and justified manner, while it's often hard to stop assholes like this from figuring out a way to be totally irresponsible, there is no need to pretty this sort of bullshit up. The petty inconveniences of people who probably aren't even that inconvenienced, but rather just hateful and fearful isn't enough reason for this form of law to be enacted. History is full of these sort of rationalizations, usually ending with terror and oppression, don't be just another apologist.

Anyways, take it from a pretty productive American Citizen who is working a good job and does cool stuff, the representatives of Arizona and their backers sucks. Also the letters in Arizona can spell OrANazi , or some other variation.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Tcaud, I have a suggestion for you.

Your post, however well-intentioned, obviously just created a bunch of dorks that are arguing with each other.

Why not be the change you want to see the world, and be nicer and kinder to hispanic people *yourself*, instead of bitching about perceived bigotry and discrimination (I don't have all the facts myself obviously, but I'm just saying about what could be really helpful). Don't curse the darkness, light a candle. You are a leftie, but also you're being a limosuine liberal. Get out there and be an advocate for hispanic (and homosexual, and women) causes yourself, get out in the front lines if you aren't already- and simply be nice to them and encourage them emotionally. That's the only thing minorities really want any way.

That's what liberals and the left really needs. Grassroot support, people who are willing to stand up and fight for them in the *real world.* Not just in books or the media.

Just think about it man. You could stop a hispanic drug dealer from making poor choices and help him get a good education.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

There are many government agencies tcaud that you could get a job as a social worker helping minorities that are on the fringes of society and need encouragement to not fall through the cracks.

You could do so much good in the world. I'm serious. But everytime you just bitch at people on a message board, with a mix of people who are both left and right (and centrist) you just cause conflict.

[MatthewZ]

The OP strikes me as highly alarmist.

[Kim]

I don't think that it's enough to just be nice to minorities and I also don't think that it's all minorities want. Perhaps the OP is doing more, e.g. writes letters, makes phone calls, attends rallies. How do you know he doesn't?

Additionally, opening a thread here might bring the issue to the attention of people who otherwise would not know about it and the discussion might spark further interest in more information. I don't think there is anything wrong with "a bunch of dorks that are arguing with each other."

[Kim]

Kim, what are you going to do if more states pass laws like this?

I don't know, but I also seriously doubt that more states will. TBH, if I was offered a great job in Arizona, I would probably take it, but I would feel apprehensive. I really hate to see what this law is doing to immigrants, legal and illegal, local businesses, and also police officers who are now under pressure to act on every bloody suspicion by narrow-minded bigots who hate their Hispanic neighbors.

And for those who put this in place and deny that it involves racial profiling, give me a break. At least call the beast by its name.

[tcaudilllg]

Just think about it man. You could stop a hispanic drug dealer from making poor choices and help him get a good education.

There ain't no fighting the influence of drugs. Man, those people just live on the edges. Let 'em stay there.

[tcaudilllg]

Can anyone make the case for having immigration quotas at all?

[Kim]

Increased diversity?

[tcaudilllg]

Increased diversity?

No I mean, why should immigration be restricted in an age where terror watch lists keep people from coming into the country illegally anyhow?

[crazedrat]

Racial profiling is fine.

Go away, tcaudilllg. No one likes you and you contribute nothing to society.

I'm curious discojoe.. what do you contribute to society?

[discojoe]

I'm curious discojoe.. what do you contribute to society?

Human capital.

*excited at prospect of flame war*

[tcaudilllg]

Tcaud, I have a suggestion for you.

Your post, however well-intentioned, obviously just created a bunch of dorks that are arguing with each other.

Well I don't look at it that way.

Why not be the change you want to see the world, and be nicer and kinder to hispanic people *yourself*, instead of bitching about perceived bigotry and discrimination (I don't have all the facts myself obviously, but I'm just saying about what could be really helpful). Don't curse the darkness, light a candle. You are a leftie, but also you're being a limosuine liberal. Get out there and be an advocate for hispanic (and homosexual, and women) causes yourself, get out in the front lines if you aren't already- and simply be nice to them and encourage them emotionally. That's the only thing minorities really want any way.

That's what liberals and the left really needs. Grassroot support, people who are willing to stand up and fight for them in the *real world.* Not just in books or the media.

Sure, when I get my degree. I am actually active on DemocraticUnderground, so I am involved with the grass roots. Protesting doesn't really make a difference... boycotting does, and I want to show my support for the people who are doing it. And I want to put pressure. All those things I can do from DemocraticUnderground.

But this all is actually related to personality theory. I've fleshed out the immanence theory a little more than I have revealed up to this point. But now, I feel it important enough to share the rest of what I know, so I'll be posting about it shortly.

You know the truth though? I don't even see a difference between Hispanics and Caucasians. One has a deeper tan than the other, and frequently dark hair. That's pretty much it. This doesn't have anything to do with Hispanics... it has to do with personality pathology run amok in America. American are so obsessed with messiahs so self-immolate on behalf of the unworthy that they don't take a hard enough line against personality pathology. I intend to be a part of the hardening of that line, but I need my degree first.

What do you plan to do, B&D?

[discojoe]

tcaudilllg ith tho retawded.

[FDG]

You know the truth though? I don't even see a difference between Hispanics and Caucasians. One has a deeper tan than the other, and frequently dark hair.

Uhm, that's because the caucasian definition in the US is weird/wrong/racist. Maritsa would perhaps be pegged as somewhat hispanic, even though she's as caucasian as a human being can be.

[GallopingQwerty]

That's what liberals and the left really needs. Grassroot support, people who are willing to stand up and fight for them in the *real world.* Not just in books or the media.

I hate to point this out and bust your bubble, but we currently have the house, senate and presidency. I think we've been doing just fine on the grassroots movement recently.

There are many government agencies tcaud that you could get a job as a social worker helping minorities that are on the fringes of society and need encouragement to not fall through the cracks.

So you're saying that all minorities are drug addicts/dealers/whatever that need support from our welfare services? Wow, how... racist of you. Sadly this is a view that quite a few people hold, despite the overwhelming evidence that white people actually hold the majority in our welfare system.

You could do so much good in the world. I'm serious. But everytime you just bitch at people on a message board, with a mix of people who are both left and right (and centrist) you just cause conflict.

And discussion. What's the point of only talking about a problem with people who agree with you? Nothing constructive would ever get done, and any solutions proposed would only be from one point of view.

The only folks who need to have everyone agree with them all the time need some help with their self image. Clearly, tcaud is not one of those people.

[Jimbean]

This has little or nothing to do with race.

If it were Germany south of the border of the US, policy would not be different than it is now.

[Jimbean]

Generally, if the new world order wants something (i.e. third world populations to overrun first world countries), you know it cannot be good and it should be opposed by freedom lovers.

[tcaudilllg]

Generally, if the new world order wants something (i.e. third world populations to overrun first world countries), you know it cannot be good and it should be opposed by freedom lovers.

Jimbean you are one hell of a dumbass.

[Jimbean]

Jimbean you are one hell of a dumbass.

lol