Teh Te2 Tehrad

[Smilingeyes]

Once upon a time there was a thread in which I described the socion from a Teish point of view. It had its highs and lows and it gained some measure of popularity (and "contributions" from an unnamed moron, too).

So, I've been approached about creating a new one.

This thread might become such.

It would be a semi-lighthearted thread, as was the original.

[Smilingeyes]

Starting with the starting point seems like a reasonable beginning.

Te.

A quote that I truely love and one that encompasses most of what is Te:


Merovingian: Hmph... I am a trafficker of information, I know everything I can. The question is, do you know why you are here?
Morpheus: We are looking for the Keymaker.
Merovingian: Oh yes, it is true. The Keymaker, of course. But this is not a reason, this is not a `why.' The Keymaker himself, his very nature, is means, it is not an end, and so, to look for him is to be looking for a means to do... what?

Neo: You know the answer to that question.

Merovingian: But do you? You think you do but you do not. You are here because you were sent here, you were told to come here and you obeyed. [Laughs] It is, of course, the way of all things. You see, there is only one constant, one universal, it is the only real truth: causality. Action. Reaction. Cause and effect.

Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.

Merovingian: No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without. Look there, at that woman. My God, just look at her. Affecting everyone around her, so obvious, so bourgeois, so boring. But wait... Watch - you see, I have sent her dessert, a very special dessert. I wrote it myself. It starts so simply, each line of the program creating a new effect, just like poetry. First, a rush... heat... her heart flutters. You can see it, Neo, yes? She does not understand why - is it the wine? No. What is it then, what is the reason? And soon it does not matter, soon the why and the reason are gone, and all that matters is the feeling itself. This is the nature of the universe. We struggle against it, we fight to deny it, but it is of course pretense, it is a lie. Beneath our poised appearance, the truth is we are completely out of control. Causality. There is no escape from it, we are forever slaves to it. Our only hope, our only peace is to understand it, to understand the `why.' `Why' is what separates us from them, you from me. `Why' is the only real social power, without it you are powerless. And this is how you come to me, without `why,' without power. Another link in the chain. But fear not, since I have seen how good you are at following orders, I will tell you what to do next. Run back, and give the fortune teller this message: Her time is almost up. Now I have some real business to do, I will say adieu and goodbye.

Neo: This isn't over.

Merovingian: Oh yes, it is. The Keymaker is mine and I see no reason why I should give him up. No reason at all.

Persephone: Where are you going?

Merovingian: Please, ma chérie, I've told you, we are all victims of causality. I drink too much wine, I must take a piss. Cause and effect? Au revoir.

.....

And furthermore in the same series there's a bit, a quote, which continues this bit:

Smith: Why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you do it? Why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something? For more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is? Do you even know? Is it freedom? Or truth? Perhaps peace? Yes? No? Could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying to desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson. You must know it by now. You can't win. It's pointless to keep fighting. Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?!

Neo: Because I choose to.

....

That is the second part of what is Te.

...

I believe it would be fair to try to open this up a bit.

Ni, is understanding and reacting to cause and effect as it accepts the physical aggressions of the outsiders and responds to them appropriately. Te is what you do when you cease to simply react passively and naturally, when you give voice to your understanding of the situation and name things for what they are. The above speech by Merovingian is extremely aggressive and imposing. But it's not Se because all extroversion is not Se. It is Te and this is the very heart of many of this virtual society's problems, misunderstanding this that is.

So. Let us suppose that you cease observing and start acting. By doing this you harm your ability to understand twice over. Firstly, you use less time for observing. Secondly your action introduces an element of randomness. You are used to observing a Ni system. You acting introduces Si to it. You change the rules of the game and so the situation changes. Never be suprised if you receive different results from the actors that you have spent your time observing.

So, we come to the question, what do you do when you lose your understanding, your reason to do things. And here we come to the second part. You do whatever you choose to. And you get the consequences.

-----

So, my point of view is:
Ni = Understanding
-Te = Reason
+Te = Choice/commitment
Si = Whatever you get
(From the Te point of view).

...

So, what kind of a Te-person are you?

Do you have a good grasp of Ni?
Do you understand your situation and connection to others?
Do you have a reason? (Are you an individual with a cause?)
Is it a good reason?
What do you hope to achieve through that reason?
Are you going to act based on that reason?
Is the price you pay too large?
What do you do when your cause appears false?
So look where you ended up, what are you going to do next?
Do you have a good grasp of Si?

...

Te
The cause, the reason, your business. These are one and the same.
It is the nature of business.
At the end of business there's the bottom line. (But it's not in the middle of it.)

....

So.

While you understand the situation you will probably be in good humour. Your problem as well as your power is that you are a victim of circumstance, detached from what you see by lack of interaction.

While you choose to take part, you also take power in the sense that you become a cause for new events. But by using your reason for action, you lose your reason for action.

Whatever power you have is situational. It will either pass and morph into something else as the situation changes, or you will invest yourself into a particular situation, choose it and lose your previous self.

You can of course go back to observation and looking for understanding. But it'll never feel like it did the first time.

Or it can be said like this. Your power is in your intuition. Eventually it will either slip through your fingers through the passing of events. Or you can choose to use it for a cause and thereby sacrifice it.

This cause is henceworth your business. You have invested a lot in it. Learn to become a good _caretaker_ of it.

These are the things I have to say about being Te. Next you must ponder your relationship to others who are Te.

[Smilingeyes]

So, continuing from the above.
So, you've got EJ temperament and have some affinity to the idea of minding your own business.

So what do you do, when another one appears?



That's one way of looking at it. It may be that you compete for the same resources. It may be that they're trying to take away something of what you believe is yours.

If you are both strong in Ni and relatively weak in Te it is unlikely that you have trouble. You can generally just agree with everything each other says, cause a synergistic effect and both appear smarter than a moment ago, have a stronger effect on listeners and achieve more.

If you are both strong in Te on the other hand, your best bet is to keep a respectful distance, while discussing things in a negotiatory way. You've got your business. They've got theirs. Mind your own business. They will understand this. But if your business conflicts with theirs, you've got a business war in your hands. Either give up immediately and detach from the conflict or make sure you win. If you give up, you've possibly lost your business. If you win, you may have caused yourself irreparable damage. So, be polite and conciliatory. Moreso, look for synergy. Look for a common target and suggest a way in which you may cooperate, if even for a while. Remember that nothing lasts forever. Things will change and you will eventually find your reason for conflict gone. Give the other person a good choice, one which is good for you as well. You are only in trouble if you can't find one and you are not significantly more capable than the other person.

If you are both strong in Si and only somewhat strong in Te, you have a race, an amicable one, but still a race. You are racing to solve a problem. This may cause synergy or frustration. You may be involved in a repeat effort and if you lose the race, the other person gets the prize. But while you may be racing the same course, you may end up in a different goal. Even if they invent a solution, you may find another one which has its own uses. And if the solution to whatever problem you are trying to fix is not one that can be universally repeated once its solved in the singular case, you have simply both increased your problem solving skills.

Some examples:
Two explorers: The one who visits North pole first gets significantly more credit than the other.
Two inventors: He may have invented a camera, but you may take his principles and design a better camera. You may steal their ideas and outdo them even if they reach the goal first.
Two plumbers: So they can fix pipes. So can you. If you exchange ideas and watch each other work you've both become better.

So, it's largely situational, depending on the nature of the action in which you are trying to outperform the other.

Of course the matter is much more simple if you meet an ESTj-Si of another field entirely. Say, plumber meets mountaineer. Then what you have is amicable disinterest. (Unless you are both starved for company in which case you can share a good moment and maybe a drink.)


----

Now, the asymmetric cases:

Now, let's say that the ENTj-Ni meets an Ej-Te or an Ej-Te meets an ESTj-Si.

On a negative note, the other person may seem to always be "close, but no cigar". There may be competition for the same resources without the immediate understanding and respect for the other that causes an undercurrent of empathy.

In positive situations the person who is more Ni can give updates on their analysis of situations which can be useful to the more Si person. Meanwhile the Si person can give more concrete situational information to support the Ni person's estimations and vindicate their opinions/ideas/knowledge.
Anyway, when these two start projects, the more Ni person wields more power and when these two near the finishing stages the person with more Si wields more power.

What is important is that both participants realize their role in the sequence of action and give each other the opportunity to act in their own are of forte and credit afterwards.

If you try to move into the other person's area of power, you will likely fail in challenging them.

...

On a more trivial note, remember that
the person who is more Ni is more carefree, positive, strategic, democratic, flowing(narrator), result-oriented
the person who is more Si is more careful, negative, tactical, aristocratic, pausing (taciturn), process-oriented

Do not get annoyed by these traits. They are not the other person's fault and while they may be inopportunate in your opinion, they are a reflection of the other person's situation. Don't blame them for it. (Unless you're playing a social game that is. In that case these are always great traits to malign so as to ostracize the other person).

...

Now finally, the meeting between an ENTj-Ni and an ESTj-Si.

There is a break in the chain between these two. They are almost superegos and the break in understanding is the relative lack of Te. The other person possesses situational vision, the other situational skills. Both are experts in their own area and neither one has any use or appreciation for the abilities of the other. They may achieve impressive things, but things that are largely irrelevant or in some way distasteful for the other. Only by choosing to strain themselves and by accident can they meet while benefiting a common business.

It is important to understand that this is close, but not exactly a superego relationship. The superego relationship hangs on both partners being similar in the "small cycle cathegories" for example both ESFj and ENTj being positive, narratorial, result-oriented and democratic. Both possess a similar air around them for this reason. And this causes the typical situation of superficial attraction but problems when getting closer of the superego relationship. ENTj-Ni - ESTj-Si situation starts with the aforementioned problems, but these problems can in some situations get worked out by pushing the Te aspect of the relationship.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Te "factoid" gone wrong:

[Creepy-male]

Te "factoid" gone wrong:

I don't like that. It almost implies Te valuers are morons who are incapable of critical thinking.

[Smilingeyes]

Te "factoid" gone wrong:

Well, that depends on one's point of view. Did it increase sales? Did the creator of the ad get a promotion? At least the graphics designer seems to have succeeded reasonably well.

As for Te users being capable or incapable of criticism... Some are, some aren't.

[Smilingeyes]

Next message will (eventually and probably) be about Mirrors aka IP-Te. This is a placeholder.
---------------------

That's going to have to take a pause.

I think I need to talk about the pit of negativism that lies at the heart of being an ESTj.

The core of being an ESTj is to be negative, taciturn, process-oriented and aristocratic.

That basically means that you are questing for meaning, without understanding the situation. Feel utterly negative and imprisoned by a question. There is an undercurrent of enduring, of suppressing your emotions that are crying out just so you can do what you must. You don't understand your predicament but you know that you must undergo it, because you have chosen it. You carry the burden because you choose to. The choice you made, always gives you more than you bargained for.

This is an extremely challenging state and people who are undergoing this tend to be labeled unhealthy. The state is almost pointless. It is the opposite of caring about good results.

If there is any point to it all, is that it is a test, a crucible. If you choose to pass it and go towards being interested in Si. It will drive you. Given that the experience is a load of pointless pain, it is just about impossible to describe to others. Why would you go through such pits of negativity? Because you chose to.

So, ok, it's quite natural to try to avoid negativity. And most people labeled as ESTj are actually strongly either ESTj-Te or ESTj-Si because hardly anyone wants to be an ESTj. The ones that are really completely ESTj are rare in comparison... and usually either exceptionally miserable, or exceptionally strong people... or both.

Anyway, that is the end result of sticking to your choices. Suffering the consequences. And learning through it. Adapting. Possibly escaping or maybe ascending into Si.

If you want to understand the process, study the survivor thread and survivors therein.
Russell Hantz of Samoa Ej-Te
Jaime Newton of Guatemal ESTj
Rupert Boneham of Pearl Islands ESTj-Si
I think if there is confusion, these characters ought to clarify the issue.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Well, that depends on one's point of view. Did it increase sales? Did the creator of the ad get a promotion? At least the graphics designer seems to have succeeded reasonably well.

As for Te users being capable or incapable of criticism... Some are, some aren't.

It's more a sort of tongue in cheek thing. For instance, to say the "evidence" supports it, so it is said in the ad. Sort of a comment on the dynamic aspect of Te as in how more facts are collected then decisions and information changes - which is related to sales as one has to keep up to date with the tools to use to apply the working - the "business" solution. Purely pragmatical POV with no need for Ti dissemination or formulas

Also, and something i've noticed, perhaps more T in general but also Te too, how it's possible with someone with strong logics to "manipulate" information in such a way to convince others that it's right. Weak logical types are more susceptable to this, probably vica versa with those of weak F. Or simply the sales guy who promotes all the benefits to clinch a sale without even thinking they would buy the product themselves.

Anyway, just to say: not wanting to pollute your thread, it was meant as a sort of dry humoured joke, but seems to have attracted some attention! (Oh - I can delete if you would like to keep the thread clean for your own posts, it's yours after all).

[The Greeter]

Once upon a time there was a thread in which I described the socion from a Teish point of view. It had its highs and lows and it gained some measure of popularity (and "contributions" from an unnamed moron, too).

So, I've been approached about creating a new one.

This thread might become such.

It would be a semi-lighthearted thread, as was the original.

I just wanted say I am very excited about this.

[felafel]

Once upon a time there was a thread in which I described the socion from a Teish point of view. It had its highs and lows and it gained some measure of popularity (and "contributions" from an unnamed moron, too).

So, I've been approached about creating a new one.

This thread might become such.

It would be a semi-lighthearted thread, as was the original.

YAY!

[krieger]

I remember you writing something about Dynamic functions being characterized by reaction and absence of agency in some way (for example, in your dichotomic 2.0 descriptions). If a person acts according to the rules of an environment, I imagine they would be subject to the influence of another person that does establish the rules. Can you explain how Te is a powerful and skillful function while still being "Dynamic" in this way? Is it about being defensively capable and being able to ward off dangers and problems, or something?

Static funtion:
It relates to a system of though in which the environment does not change by itself but it is the people who interact with it that set the rules of what happens.

Dynamic function:
It relates to a system of thought in which the environment is in flow and people act according to its rules in whatever way they are able to.

[Smilingeyes]

@cyclops: Thank you for the comment. This thread, from my point of view, is something I'm writing with a particular person in mind. The general reaction to it is not that important. So, clutter away

@labcoat: vis a vis
" I remember you writing something about Dynamic functions being characterized by reaction and absence of agency in some way (for example, in your dichotomic 2.0 descriptions). If a person acts according to the rules of an environment, I imagine they would be subject to the influence of another person that does establish the rules. Can you explain how Te is a powerful and skillful function while still being "Dynamic" in this way? Is it about being defensively capable and being able to ward off dangers and problems, or something"

You quote me correctly. But, Te is an extrovert function, not an introvert one, therefore it is not about skill, or understanding, or ability. It is about energy, impact, effect.

If Ne is the impactful idea.
Fe is the impactful communication, pledge, ethical statement.
Se is the impactful action.
Te is the impactful choice, intention, logical statement.

Also, T (as is F) is a limes between action (S) and nonaction (N).
So Fe is also a statement of "I am finished controlling physically, and will seek control of ideas.
While Te is also a statement of "I am finished controlling ideas and will seek physical control.
So they are also social messages that claim a social position in Ti and Fi hierarchies.

Neither Fe nor Te respect the flow of events. They are interruptions. But neither one is a perceptive trait. Neither one directly relates to the physical world. In that sense both of them are actually directly ineffectual. They are futile attempts at an impact, except as much as people of Ti/Fi react to them.

That's what I care to say about the subject right now.

[Smilingeyes]

Now on with the show:

More on the INTp-Ni - ENTj-Ni relationships:

The basic pattern is that ENTj is happy and INTp is negative. The ENTj is careless and opportunistic for profit, the INTp is careful and watchful for opportunities for criticism. The ENTj is trying to enjoy themselves while the INTp is trying to be strict with themselves. The ENTj often appears to be in a superior position to the INTp due to this, because their behaviour communicates this. INTp will sometimes appreciate this because it makes their own self-flagellation all the more effective. But often the INTp will see the ENTj as a cause of suffering or as lacking in empathy/evil. The INTp, in my experience from life as an ENTj tended to seem like a pitiful, ugly stepbrother. I mean, Ni was the greatest thing in the world in my experience, it opened the world of profit, understanding and success and rewarded me, and here was this silly critter who thought this was a reason to feel baaad. What a silly person. Yet I was also slightly scared of the INTp-Ni, because they could occasionally cut me down.

Ip-Te -Ej-Te relations:
Respectful. The IP-Te is unshakeable, self-assured, looking to put their personal touch on things, possessive, empowered, creative. The EJ-Te is negotiating, accepting, compliant, self-limiting. The IP is in a two-person group the more powerful one. But they do not tend to misuse this power excessively so the EJ is capable of accommodating and in my experience is capable of gaining the IP's respect. This is a kind of good neighbours relationship. Good fences make good neighbours though. Respect and this will succeed.

ISTp-Si - ESTj-Si. I would call it almost a role reversal of the ENTj-Ni - INTp-Ni thing, but with even more intensity, because the energetic person is the intensive one in the relationship and because the tools are practical ones. Would call it quite random, with both the good and the bad moments.

----

Next the chain of supervision relationships:
INTp-Ni- EJ-Te
Ip-Te - ESTj-Si (and the other four similar).

Despite the minor quadratic differences these relationships are in my experience more likely to be functional than the identical quadra relationships. This being due to division of labour which allows more breathing room to the partners and also creates more synergy. What is also helpful is that the mood of the partners is more similar than that of the direct mirrors. Therefore there is more empathy.

(to be continued, maybe...)

[krieger]

They are futile attempts at an impact, except as much as people of Ti/Fi react to them.

Right, in as far as the Statics react, the impact would be made in the form of Se or Ne. But what is it Te types reach by bringing about Si through their Te decisions? What should this Si be described as if not as something of impact? Is it some personally meaningful result?

[Smilingeyes]

@labcoat:
Si is the ability to see the links between physical objects, that is it is the direct control of environment through personal physical action. It is generally thought of in terms of skill or expertise. Now after one has reached supreme skill and expertise, actually gaining good results is ridiculously easy. (issue here of course being that these skills are situation-dependant and if the situation changes...) Also, Si is of course a sort of "trade" dependent thing and thus supports the need for barter, but that works well with Te.

Si works with the flow and it doesn't seek to disturb it, though it occasionally may. For example, a Si lawyer would rejoice in their ability to find legal loopholes, twisting the law in extraordinary ways for their own purposes, but not breaking the law. EJ-Si in particular would often be seen as amazing tricks and accomplishments. This is what is talked about when people talk about Si people practising physical tasks interminably or Ej-Si seeking to be perfect.

Athletes that I believe to be representative of this Ej-Si triumph are Muhammed Ali and Alexander Ovechkin. Their level of understanding their trade makes impossible things look easy.

Many Ej-Si love the reactions their skills get so much that they tend to start developing skills and tricks just for show, rather than solving real problems, and then Fe starts to enter the picture. As an example I know of a surgeon, an excellent one, who likes to actually perform surgery tricks, like when he has an audience, he may perform the surgery without looking at his hands, something which I think is just about the pinnacle of asking for trouble (stupidity), but nevertheless he can do this and still succeed in the operations. He doesn't have to do this of course, but it has substantially increased his reputation among other surgeons (in a positive way I might add). Still, I wouldn't do that even if I could. And another ESFj-doctor I know doesn't really do medicine at all but decided he likes doing literal magic tricks (stage magic). He's quite good at that (of course).

But yeah, it's a long way from Ni (I'm just a victim of circumstance, I can't succeed in anything) to Si -daredevilry.

Anyway, it's obvious again how Si has enabling effects to an Ej temperament whereas Te has limiting ones.