I don't know what's Federer's type. My intuition says some kind of Si type, from when I watch him play, but he doesn't interest me as a person so as far as I know he could be any type. The comment was just a throw-away, tongue in cheek thing. Neither am I that strong on my faith in Nadal being Se.Originally Posted by Parkster
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
The thing with typing via internet is that all of the info you have to work with is based on the type of information the person is spewing out, the information element. Someone that writes something that is well-structured and has attention to detail will be attributed to Ti, and if said person does it frequently, then they have a likelihood of being Ti valuing. You can't really type people in this forum, but apply some sort of probability towards what their type might be. I doubt that people are "honest" enough to spew information that is entirely based on their leading functions... Smilex seems to be interested in Socionics on a macroscopic scale, as opposed to looking at the inner workings of things. He likes to have a grasp as to how types relate to each other and help each other reach a certain clear objective. This to me is Te. He might well be ISTj, but my gut feeling points towards LSE.
I will accommodate the general smilex = ISTj bullcrap by describing a conversation and reaction I had today with an actual ISTj doctor.
In men's locker room:
ISTj: Here's the villa. [shows cell phone and some drawings in it]
Me: What? You own that? [Having no clue why he'd show me that or what he's talking about. It was as if I had been shoved into a conversation that had been going on in his head for a while.]
ISTj: Not yet. But as soon as I get my permit...
Me: You're going to build it? How big is that?
ISTj: 280 square yards + 400 square yards basement. [shows more floor plans]
Me: Wow, that's great! Do you have kids? [What the fuck does he need that big a house for anyway?]
ISTj: Two. Planning a third one. [Goes on to describe the floor plans and different spaces allocated to guests and separate for particular others. Something that irks me slightly since it gives me the image that a guest would not receive actual friendly hospitality from him (a la my home is your home). I continued to be impressed by the amount of thought and planning he'd put on the project but thought the project was megalomaniacal, a bit useless and would probably drag him down in the end.]
Me: So what does the permit hang on?
ISTj: The environmental board denied it but the reasons they gave were wrong. I made them a correction and now they have to give me the permit.
Me: Well that seems reasonable. Of course, that's if it's an issue of justice.
ISTj: They have to give me the permit, otherwise I'll take the issue to court.
Me: Well, sometimes you don't get justice even there.
ISTj: But I'm right. They have to accept it.
Me: [laughingly] yes, let's hope so. That's a great project. [Uh, you're not getting my point, in my experience municipal boards are political instruments, but I don't want to argue with you. I want to keep a nice atmosphere with you.]
ISTj goes on to describe some fiscal moves he's planned, including creating his own building company just so he can build the house with his own equipment [again the amount of planning he's done makes my head spin. I'm a bit in awe of his organizational skills and also slightly wondering at his overflowing optimism.]
Me: so you've got the land area already?
ISTj: No, but I can buy it.
Me: So you've applied to a permit for ground you don't own.
ISTj: Yes, but I've got an agreement that I can buy it if I get the permit.
Me: Oh, ok. That's great. How much?
ISTj: [a little uncomfortably] 300 k dollars.
Me: Oh, and how much do you think it's going to cost to build?
ISTj: 1,3 million.
Me: That's a lot of money [laughing] Impressive. So is that half and half between you and your wife?
ISTj: No. This is mine. I've got some of it. And some of it I can get later.
Me: Oh, a loan? [WTF? getting a 1M dollar loan for a house you don't need?]
ISTj: Yes, I'll get it for no interest from my parents.
Me: Heh, that's great.
ISTj: And I'll work it out.
Me: Yeah, isn't that why we're doctors anyway, heh. [Whatever.]
ISTj: Mmyeah.
Me: Talk to you about those metal investments later?
ISTj: Yeah, c ya.
.....
Basically, I think he's very smart, but also that his grandiose plans are quite silly. He's interesting conversation company basically because he has reasonable areas of interest but the way he handles the issues is quite odd to me.
Undoubtedly this will convince no one, but at least I made the effort.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
That's a good point... but I think it is kind of arbitrary to type people based on the content of what they write, honestly. I think putting emphasis on that leads more often to confusion than clarity; it tends to reinforce common stereotypes that can be manifestations of someone's type, but are not actually part of that type in and of itself.
There are plenty of people, especially the newbies, who come to the forum and pull things from profiles (like I did!) and express things relating to certain functions, speaking about how they are or are not this or that function. I don't think talking about certain things actually reveals much socionically.
But how someone writes, forms their opinions, and tries to create influence in terms of reasoning with someone or explaining the validity of something - that is rather telling, IMO.
yet, in order to really understand that, you need experience - not just in socionics, but also with people. Because you need to become familiar with how various people discuss things, and what an "unintelligent" or un-nuanced person looks like when they try to discuss something, for example. And also understand various levels of experience in terms of discussing things ; because someone is Te or Ti doesn't mean they are going to be able to constructively discuss something. Because someone gets angry doesn't mean they are Se-ego. Etc etc etc
It's a lot about how things are said and why things are important.
yes, thats exactly what I was thinking!
are we on the same wavelength or what?
Smiling, I looked up the definition of control for purposes of understanding your writing in its exactingness, and control IS about a dominating influence. I have not twised anything, rather your haphazard semantics are the reason for confusion. For instance you started off saying Si types control their environment, then later on said they control their own environment which holds two completely different meanings. If what you meant was what parkster has clarified, which I also concluded after re-reading, then I can agree with you.
Last edited by thePirate; 03-23-2010 at 05:01 AM.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" isand not
I feel so....... giddy?
...special?
............appreciated?
:redface::redface::redface::redface:
Wow.
EDIT: Also, here is a good example of LSEs "making fun" of Fe. It's kinda funny.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
Blah blah blah. Socionics has adapted many words to its own usage.yes, thats exactly what I was thinking!
are we on the same wavelength or what?
Smiling, I looked up the definition of control for purposes of understanding your writing in its exactingness, and control IS about a dominating influence. I have not twised anything, rather your haphazard semantics are the reason for confusion. For instance you started off saying Si types control their environment, then later on said they control their own environment which holds two completely different meanings. If what you meant was what parkster has clarified, which I also concluded after re-reading, then I can agree with you.
Why don't you take your brand of poison somewhere where its appreciated?
For the record:
Free dictionary:
To control:
2. To adjust to a requirement; regulate: controlled trading on the stock market; controls the flow of water.
n.
1. Authority or ability to manage or direct: lost control of the skidding car; the leaders in control of the country.
You will find it that the people who more directly control the world are the people who control tools. An example of them being cars. But others included. The ISTp archetype is called the craftsman because they tend to have the mastery of tools in their portfolio. ESTj is called the administrator, because they have the capacity to regulate their environment also on the level of influence despite not being a Se type. You impress no one and just make yourself look silly you git.
This thread is getting bogged down by idiots. Edit: Excuse me, a particular idiot.
Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-23-2010 at 07:45 AM.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
Yes, but socionics has made it clear what those usages are. You have not, and thus what I have taken issue with is the ambiguity and incompetence of your statements.
Also:
control - definition of control by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
The examples you listed are on this page, with the one I cited being first. I dont know if you purposely disregarded this, although I wouldnt put it past you as you come across as quite the douche, or if it may have been on another page. In either case, read it and weep assface. Control and influence are closely related, and every element share aspects of both depending on the situation. Differentiating them like you do here a little helpful but ultimately more confusing.
Also, you are using silly examples to justify your points. For instance, what tools are we talking about? If we are talking about tools in the literal sense of the word, you are an idiot. If we are talking about tools in a more abstract sense, you would need to define what these tools are and how or why it enables an Si type to control their environment - and also address the limits. You make it seem like something its not. Parkster has illustrated the difference well, you have yet to achieve this. Statements such as 'the people who more directly control the world control the tools', then listing the ISTp craftsman as an example allude to traits that do not correlate with said type.
I was hoping this would be a polite exchange, but your unfounded arrogance is more than just slightly annoying. Theres really no need to be calling anyone an idiot here, Marie simply challenged your stupidity as have I.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is
You are a completely useless, senseless and evil git. I put you on ignore. Marie is nothing like you and you are not doing the same thing you p.o.s.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
yes, that solves the issue.
:/
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is
So? afaik a bunch of people type you as LSI.
Yep, experience with people come first. There's 16 types, yet personality is a unique thing.
And when one actually has experience with people. and types, we find serious ISTp's, talkative ISTp's, jovial ISTp's, moody ISFp's, placid ESTp's, the list goes on, and imo it's people who've read a few things on some internet sites and become convinced they are experts on the subject who come in and confuse people.
I think it probably should go without saying that one is better to operate with some sort of 'firewall' when going through the forums in general.
Now before things ground to a complete halt, might be a good time to move on again. I'd like to also beg pardon from that particular person who this is thread is meant to be to, for the derailment and soiling of this thread. But things have to move on. Can't let evil and stupidity reign.
On to the subject of Te + Fi. I'm going to start with Ej-Te - Ep-Fi relations because they are just easier to describe.
Similar format as before, seems reasonable. Again, relationships of
group 1 (activity)
ESFp-Se - ENTp-Ni
EP-Fi - Ej-Te
ENFp-Ne - ESTj-Si
group 2 ( activity/beneficiary)
ESFp-Se - Ej-Te
ENFp-Ne - Ej-Te
Ep-Fi - ENTj-Ni
EP-Fi - ESTj-Si
group 3 (beneficiary/quasi-identical)
ESFp-Se - ESTj-Si
ENFp-Ne - ENTj-Ni
.....
I'll start with the ESFp-Se - ENTj-Ni since that is the easiest ( in all levels of being easy).
(but first, I might have to catch some zzzs.
Bye bye for a moment. To be probably continued in this message.
...
Ok, so here's the continuation. I hope anyone who cares about this thread also finds this edit.
Now considering the reception the first part of the project got I'm a little iffy about writing this next part because it might cause even more of a reaction.
But as if I'd let that stop me before. So here goes...
The Ep-Ej relations are synergistic. Both seek to make things happen. EPs prefer to act and Ejs prefer to be acted upon so when they find each other, things generally get good.
So this is a situation where quadra similarity is always an advantage and a very important one really.
Let's think of this a bit.
Let's say we have ENTj-Te - ESFp -Se. Both are extrovert. It's like having two pitchers and no receivers.
ENTj-Ni - ESFp-Fi -> Two receivers, nobody's pitching.
ESFp-Se -> ENTj-Ni though. Now that's magic.
Now this is basically an activity relationship but if you read descriptions of activity partnerships (for example Ganin's) it actually describes a conglomerate of several kinds of possible relatioships and situations that occur as these individuals oscillate around these centers of typical action. For now, I think it's best to describe only the minor elements.
A direct activity partner such as ESFp-Se to ENTj-Ni is, as is commonly believed, the quickest of relationships to form. But if the partners haven't adjusted to each other, there are problems. So this adjustment is important and what is it all about? Communication. In my experience of marriage with my ex-wife, communication was always the key and remains the key to our lasting friendship.
ESFp-Se and ENTj-Ni are both positive, resolute, democratic and empowered and strategic. This is a great combination. Both are happy in a lasting way, attempt no tricks to get advantages and talk about real and meaningful things, they directly care about their own happiness and because the activity relationship causes them happiness they see the other partner as being a part of their happiness. Basically a positive, empowering activity relationship is the easiest most natural and most completely supporting relationship two people can have. (So that's also ENTp-Ne - ESFj-Si, ISTp-Te - INFj-Fi, ISTj-Ti - INFp-Fe).
It's a rare and delicate thing though.
And it hangs (in this case) on the ESFp always pursuing the ENTj with actions, and the ENTj always always explaining why just that action was so important.
There can be no variation.
So... when you get bored of the constant high, it will go down hill.
Partners may experience overspecialization and start to become more and more stuck. In this case they may experience a constantly magnifying need for new ideas and also a rapidly deteriorating health (complete denial of Ne and Si). The quality of work done by both partners also deteriorates as they lack criticism, though general positivity will of course increase the output of whatever they are doing. Also, of course the ESFp will overwork herself and the ENTj can't really get anything done (without talking the ESFp into doing it for him/her).
So, one should enjoy this when one can.
...
EP-Fi - EJ-Te
Now comes a problem. Either the Ej has seized initiative or the Ep has stopped delivering.
This relationship is grave, limiting, judging, emotion-creating. It feels like four o'clock in the night after a party, when you realize you've just wasted the time of your life. Or maybe it could be described as a very long and shared hangover, with a bunch of quiet sentimentality for comfort. It is a realization of greatest pessimism, that the Ej-Te flatly states in so many ways to the Ep-Fi and the Ep-Fi looks inside to understand the effect of loss, understanding that they have been cut off, they are alone with themselves and reaching inside themselves the socialite finds just more and more guilt, hurt and helplessness. They feel the need to know why this is happening but the answers just keep hurting more, so they deny the answers. But this will just prolong the experience, avoiding the true low of the ENFp's deepest trauma.
...
ENFp-Ne -ESTj-Si
A relationship where both "have issues". The ENFp is trying to invent a way out of a chrysalis of negative feelings and self-loathing and the ESTj is trying to figure out methods and techniques that could make them a functional part of their environment. The relationship is negative, but empowering, judicious and aristocratic. They each feel the weight of their personal roles and destinies and try to wriggle out of it and in that sense they have empathy to each other and are able to find comfort with each other. They may start experimenting with parties and doing crazy stuff and other alpha things with the help of each other and this may lead to conversion and liberation to one or both of the partners. A very therapeutic and useful relationship, which may nevertheless break painfully if one partner suddenly becomes positive while the other still has issues as they may feel "left behind".
Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-25-2010 at 08:49 PM.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
Just to even the score, I had Federer typed as ESTj before I read anything in this thread. An argument against ISTj that anyone can immediately pick up on is his facial expressiveness. At the same time that expressiveness is not in some sweet or innocent way happy like that of an ESFj; it's always somewhere between enthusiastic, determined and plain harsh.
Notice also that he stars in Gilette commercials that are targetted on Si valuing types even according to the most conservative interpretations of socionics.
Eh, I think i'll just touch on this a little bit if that's OK, still with idea with thread moving on an all, simply as it seems from my perspective some people haven't interpreted it ... correctly?
So I guess I just wanted to maybe clarify a little what i'm interpreting from overall thing, with a bit of an elaboration and example.
For ISTp's, i've tended to notice that when they are interacting with environment, if you will, the 'control' for want of word, is more intricate. For instance, working with a tool on a small scale, perhaps some electronics board or even setting up computer devices/components, the ISTp tends to be rather skilled at working with the intricacies of these small things, attention to the small details, working the little components, w/e it is, this, nuts, bolts, screws, even other stuff, with out actually damaging it. In that respect they make great artisans, a master of the environment if you will.
ESTp's on other hand, with contrasting ego functions, are not quite so good at this, from my experience, they are more inclined to try to "shove" things in, forcing it, impatient with the little things, wanting a more direct bigger scale impact. Maybe even something as simple as trying to force a USB plug into a serial port connector, for instance.
I think this is what is meant, an illustration even, by Si involvement in direct control of environment through personal involvement. They interact environment through subjective self - and you could say this where Si comfort comes in - it's not internally pleasing to force and break things unnecessarily, hence the intricacy ... and 'mastery', it can create.
I tend towards Federer being a Si type as well. Even when contrasting his style with Nadal's, who is clearly about power and raw strength, Federer appears to be more skilled and graceful.
Ceci n'est pas une eii.
what a great conversation
I once dated an ISTj who had a closet full of women's clothes. I don't know why, and no he didn't turn out to be gay. I remember going over to his place with friends at some point and spilled tomato sauce all over myself. These lovely black pants appeared out of nowhere, and then more clothes, then i found out about the closet. He said he liked to buy pretty clothes, regardless of whether they'd be of use to him or not. If he liked them, he bought them. They were all gorgeous clothes, but...very strange indeed lol
Hey Smilex, not to throw you off course, but could you do some INFj Te analyses at some point in this thread? It would be interesting to read.
Exactly. Thank you for caring to put it in better words.
...
...
Not to waste a message, I'll mention there was an update on the previous message.
...
Also, I will be getting to the INFjs, it's just complicated, so I want to get the easier stuff out of the way first.
...
The cycle of benefaction (or thereabouts) is going to be next.
ESFp-Se - Ej-Te
This is a generally happy and good relationship. It is capable of causing the Ej-Te to slide momentarily into the ENTj-Ni aspect and causing good times. In practise this will happen a lot. Anyway, partners will move in their own directions with little regard for the other. If partners pause to talk about this, the Ej is easily capable of making the ESFp accept the situation, because the ESFp believes the Ej is gaining satisfaction from doing his or her own thing (while in fact the opposite is true). But it is better for the Ej not to explain this misunderstanding. Rather it is most useful and fun for the Ej if they find a way to occupy the ESFp with doing small things that help the Ej on their course. This will require the Ej to realize that the ESFp is not like they are and that the ESFp would actually like to do something helpful as a general matter, unlike the Ej-Te to whom it is more of a matter of duty. So understanding the other person through communication is again extremely beneficial. The ESFp is the "benefactor" in this relationship. The Ej will gain from the relationship more, at least in the beginning. But it may start to weigh the EJ's sense of responsibility and they may start to feel that they need to do something to pay the ESFp back, while that is probably the last thing that the ESFp wants. So, as long as the Ej avoids directly pushing the ESFp and is considerate and tries to maintain a positive touch, the situation will most likely work out great for him or her and the ESFp will also at least gain satisfaction and possibly a dependent.
ENFp-Ne - Ej-Te
A lot depends on the ENFps first impression of the Ej-Te. If they witness the Ej-Te doing something Si-related, they will quickly approach the person and suggest ways on which to use their Si for the ENFps and possibly mutual benefit. This may lead to an intensive period of work and Si-Ne cooperation, but it will be very stressful for both parties, since both parties are pushing the other to "reach over" the maximum of their types negativity. This relationship will likely feel very sad, like a missed opportunity to both parties. I personally tend to get job suggestions and "helpful ideas" and other unwanted help from ENFps and this tends to make me feel a bit angry and them offended. Trying to maintain a positive atmosphere in this relationship tends to be appreciated though it's not particularly effective. If by pure happenstance though the partner's trivial objectives happen to coincide, both parties may for a time feel great joy and it may become a Ne-Si relationship (the ENFp suggests that the EJ-Te do something that the Ej-Te knew they would have to do sooner or later anyway. The EJ-Te may get in the spirit of performing trivial operations and forget their own duty and the weight they carry for a while.)
That's it for now. Someone else wants to use my internets.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
The other ring of benefaction is a little bit rarer as an interaction.
Ep-Fi - ENTj-Ni
Both are introvert and creative. Both discuss a valueset that differs somewhat from the other one's. ENTj-Ni will not really see much value in Fi, but will see the other person as someone who might be coaxed into Se-activity. The Ep-Fi might do this but it will likely be seen as a sort of diversion from whatever are the reasons that made the Ep-Fi whatever they are in the first place. Nevertheless, this is a very pleasant, free and surprisingly passive relationship. It is possibly that the Ep-Fi is the one who diverts the ENTj-Ni rather than the other way around but there would have to be added incentive as the natural "positivity" inducement works the other way around.
Ep-Fi - ESTj-Si
Another introvert and creative relationship, but if the previous one was strategic, positive and democratic (free, predictable and happy), this one is tactical, negative and aristocratic, making it shifty, unpredictable, strained and unhappy. The parties actually try to be quite accommoddating and nice toward each other but do it in ways that aren't particularly smart, but rather end up being awkward. Yet this relationship may turn into a much more positive one if the partners find a way to interact in a sphere of their life in which the Ep-Fi sees potential or fun, basically again a diversion.
It is also quite possible that these partners will first meet up while showing a social mask and it may take some time before these partners see each other for what they are.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
Finally
ENTj-Ni - ENFp-Ne
and
ESFp-Se - ESTj-Si
aka
ENFp-Ne is someone who increases in positivity, the closer they get to being an ENTp, yet they aren't really one. To an ENTj-Ni, this situation is anathema in so many ways. First of all, the ENFp-Ne suggests that the ENTj-Ni do active Si-kind of things (PoLR hit) secondly they see someone who is on their way of becoming something that is really annoying (ENTp), thirdly the ENFp seems unsuccessful and negative and just plain not really desirable company. To the ENFp-Ne, is also someone to avoid as they just turn the ENFp's attempts of approach into something bad. This relationship can take a much more pleasant course when the two meet "in neutral ground" discussing something which neither one considers to be their area of expertise and or if the partners misunderstand each other to the extent that they think the other is of the same temperament as they are. Nevertheless, since both partners are intuitive, any conflict is likely to happen through intermediaries.
ESFp-Se - ESTj-Si
This is very much a role reversal of the above. But any conflicts that happen are more direct. Actual physical fighting is not at all impossible.
These two relationships have partners that are enough alike in their methods that they compete for job opportunities and physical resources, yet they are enough unlike that there is no empathy of temperament, no empathy of quadra values and no empathy of the general spirit of action. Furthermore any rapprochement is likely to happen along the Te-Fi axis which is also a miserable situation from both parties point of view.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
So, on to the Ij - Ej relations.
ISFj-Se - ENTj-Ni
Ij-Fi - Ej-Te
INFj-Ne - ESTj-Si
-
Ej-Te - ISFj-Se
Ej-Te - INFj-Ne
Ij-Fi - ENTj-Ni
Ij-Fi - ESTj-Si
ISFj-Se - ESTj-Si
INFj-Ne - ENTj-Ni
---
which I'd like to introduce with the thematic picture of
...
These relations force me to ponder a bit about the concepts of rationality and irrationality.
The matter is simple, and its effects on interpersonal relationships are profound.
Rationals are people to whom understanding and personal ability to manipulate is empowering and creates a positive experience. Rationals are people to whom confronting unique things is disabling and a negative experience. So it is common for rationals to have positive expectations of generalities and find ways which enable them to function well with a large group of situations and when something does not function according to the manner they are accustomed to (rationally) they become negative. In this sense, recognizing another person as a unique external individual with ability to make personal choices rather than as a part of a bigger picture is an inherently uncomfortable concept to a rational.
(irrationals OTOH are the opposite in these characteristics, seeing patterns as suffocating, they are filled with negative expectations of everything that is not of unique importance to them, that does not stand out, and when they get the opportunity to form an emotional reaction to a unique individual, it tends to be positive, they will approach it.)
The rational power and ability and happiness is the ability to understand, interpret and react correctly to different kinds of stimuli. This is internalization of external stimuli and I prefer to call it with the verb assimilate as it transforms unique circumstances into instances of a pattern. The natural most enabling role of any rational is that of a guide to an irrational who exerts their fitting extrovert counterpart function.
...
With this group I find it easier to start of the non-quadratic relationships.
ENTj-Ni - IJ-Fi. Both are introverted, empowered, compliant.
... (I've been interrupted, will continue later, probably...)
Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-28-2010 at 10:47 PM.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
i don't understand this, i'm sorry....Why?
edit: but you don't have to explain now, only when you get a chance maybe...(?) after you've finished what you're working on.
I think the Limiting/'Disabling' functions aren't always a source of negative experience. They are also bastions of certainty and things one is strongly convinced of. The kind of euphoric sensation of being really sure about something is associated with Limiting functions, imo. (notice that one can be strongly convinced that a speculative/abstract idea has merit, so this kind of certainty is not restricted to external functions)
Notice also that in Statics, the Creating functions are Limiting, so the experience of certainty is reached at the peak of a focussed endeavor.
I don't know why. It's a core trait. Rationals are positive when narrator and negative when taciturn, irrationals are negative when narrator, positive when taciturn. Your question is the same as asking why do different temperaments exist. And the answer would have to be some combination of genetic traits and very early individual psychological development.i don't understand this, i'm sorry....Why?
edit: but you don't have to explain now, only when you get a chance maybe...(?) after you've finished what you're working on.
...
ENTj-Ni - IJ-Fi. Both are introverted, empowered, compliant. These two groups can see each other as sort of... soulmates. There is an element of similarity which manifests as having a deep personal world view through which each of them aims to interpret the world around them. They may discuss these worldviews and notice many similarities, yet enough differences that there may be a bit of "chemistry" and excitement. The relationship remains in the abtract though since neither partner is particularly likely to start acting exactly like the other person nor give the other person the complete acceptance they desire. Basically, each person is happy with their own way of understanding the world and neither one is likely to relinquish it to get closer to the other. Curiosity leads them to discuss each other's views but in the end each is rooted in their own. Also, there's a lack of any strong actions in the relationship so the relationship can appear needlessly distant. Still, it is a very attractive and pleasant relationship in general and the partners can enjoy each other's positivity as well as their mutual appreciation and they are even occasionally capable and willing to support each other in ways that are useful/needed.
...
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I agree with the above and apologize for the oversimplification. I have to question though, do you really mean "euphoria"? It would be easy for me to understand if you felt enormous excitement, but ... euphoria? Anyway, it would be very nice if you would like to describe this slightly more.
As a supporting example, I'd like to point out that at least to me, as an extrovert rational, the feeling of love, is also a limiting experience. But every Ej I remember discussing this with, has described the experience as... painful, though of course also important and ... fulfilling.
Btw, thanks for the quote
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
My usage of the term may be a little unconventional, but I think it is still fitting. Keep in mind when I, as a Static, talk about Limiting functions, I also mean something Creating, so it's something of value, something that took effort to acquire. The feeling is arrogant in a way, because one claims to oneself and/or others that one has investigated an issue to the point of being able to conclude it. Experience shows time after time again that these kinds of feelings are unfounded in 99% of all cases, that there is always some aspect of the problem left unexamined, but that does not stop one from professing them. So that arrogance is "deluded" in a way similar to how a euphoric state often is. In a way, it feels "too good to be true" and yet is quite fun to engage in as a pet delusion. As long as you don't take it too seriously, nothing much can go wrong.
In contrast, the Accepting/Limiting/Dynamic functions seem to me to be related to things one quickly picks up and has to acknowledge, so there is no real effort behind them, no investment (in Te's case, probably a kind of decision that has no element of freedom to it, a decision that "makes itself" out of necessity). I could understand if those give rise to sensations of stagnation and/or boredom when focussed too much on.
I'm looking forward to the embarrassing terms you'll be describing INTjs with when that type makes it's appearance in your stories.Btw, thanks for the quote
Hmm... What you say here troubles me a bit.
1) If you expect that 99% certain what you experience is not really going to limit you in a meaningful way, that doesn't really seem particularly limiting.
2) Because of the above, I suspect that what you're describing would be more accurately connected to the latter half of the positivism arc and only tangential to the experience of negativity. Of course, since I haven't experienced the full equivalent of what you describe, I can't be certain of this but your description leaves me suspicious.
3) "I could understand if those give rise to sensations of stagnation or boredom"... I would not describe the Te - 'limiting' feeling in those terms. Rather feelings of excitement, fear and sense of loss would be appropriate.
4) My understanding of IJ positive process, limited as it is, is that it appears to be like taking a nice sunday drive, where you control each aspect of events and experiences you receive during the trip. In this parable the 'limiting' would not be just the end of the trip leading to the expectation of another one, but losing your eyesight so you could never experience a sightseeing tour again. Or if the positive experience is purely mental playing with terms, the 'limiting' experience would be the loss of your ability to reason, due to for example severe brain trauma/ alzheimer's. 'Limiting' means basically loss of something significant. I suspect only very minor 'limiting' experiences can be seen as a positive through some adrenalin rush, playing with danger kind of thing. But of course, I can't really speak for an IJ's experience.
(For this definition, the 'negativity' would start at the point where one is troubled by one's loss, peak at the point in which one feels completely limited and unable to make any choices and start to wane when one starts finding ways to act despite the limitations.)
...
If I refer to the 'positive process' of the IJs as a nice trip, I tend to also think of the 'negative' process of the EJ's as a negative trip, and in this connection the 'limiting' aspect of what happens, is sort of a departure from something good, to a process or a trip one expects to dislike. And it might be that one comes back from that trip quickly, safe and sound, but then one can be 'positive' again and one gains new appreciation for what one had, but the trip may also continue, and continue and continue, until one has lost the memory of why the hell one decided to take the stupid trip anyway and one has no clue where one is going or how one is supposed to get anywhere and one is lost on a seemingly neverending hellish cruise.
Or another example. Let us say that we have a stereotypical rich ENTj businessman. And he has a hobby of gambling (or investing). Let us say that he practises the method of going to a casino and always betting on black on the roulette wheel and every time he loses, he bets twice as much the next time.
Now if he loses 1% of his huge wealth, it doesn't really matter. His bank's going to give him that back in a few months. He gets to experience danger and excitement and is titillated. He still gets to go to the bar next, bang gold digger chicks and appear in Fortune next month. IMO this is about corresponding to your description of 'euphoric limiting'.
Now if he continues and he loses 31% of his wealth he experiences significant loss. He has to sell his summer cottage, close down on exciting business ventures, tell his mistress/wife that he's a fuck-up, consider quitting for ever his gambling hobby, wonder about the whole wisdom of letting oneself be a victim of outside circumstance and so on. This is the approach of the end of the positive experience and a significant 'limiting' experience'. But he still might get back if he wins that next turn of the wheel...
And when that one comes up red and he's lost 63% of everything he had, at that point there's no going back. The mathematics of his 'method' has destroyed him. Luck has caught up and he's screwed. He's not likely to get back to what he used to have. He has to liquidate assets to pay up. He's probably levered and has to pay debts. When the first moment of loss strikes, he won't really know yet about everything that will happen, but he will now something momentous just took place. Now there is still of course a chance that he will dig his hole deeper. Because while there is a peak of 'losing', the peak is not the full extent of the situation. One can still lose more. Next go the self-confidence, job, mistress/wife, the rest of the money until he's dealt with the issues that led to these losses. At that point, depending on circumstance, he may go back to being an ENTj, get back everything he used to have, but still be a changed man from the experience, or he may go Si.
But anyway, that's what 'limiting' appearing in your life is about as a life experience IMO. Loss.
---
@tutu: Hm. The experience of love is something I suspect is different for each type. But most importantly I suspect it is always related to the extrovert functions. As love (the way I would use the word) would seem to require the object of love be somehow uniquely important or at least more important than other things. While I do accept that there is of course, also the more general love for everything that rises from the ability of understanding the importance of an issue, which I would ascribe to introvert functions, it does not really seem to be the kind of love that romance is made of, to say the least. As for the love of an EJ-temperament person... if Te can be called love, and actually I believe it can, it is a dedicated form of love, born out of choice and decision and willingness to form a bond, while Fe I would call an accepted form of love, one which one surrenders to and throws oneself into.
The issue is a bit complex though because of
a) Fe = emotion, Te = logic
b) Ej-Fe = creation-creating, Ej-Te = emotion-creating.
So... it's complex.
And yes, I do wonder about how other types experience love.
Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-29-2010 at 11:00 PM.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
ESTj-Si - Ij-Fi.
This is some seriously stupid Jane Austen kind of shit. ... Partners will recognize in each other the negative- taciturn aspect while interacting in an introvert, mutually empowering way. The soul-mate characteristic of this relationship appears as a sort of emerging joy of realizations. There is an abundance of niceness, helpfulness, kindness and a complete lack of wise decisions.
Let me describe my first 'girl friend - boy friend' relationship I ever had. I was 14 or 15 or something like that and I lived an ESTj-Si kind of life at that point. I was the castout nerd due to my habit of withdrawal, excessive seriousness, booksmarts and general habit of being a spoilsport. But I had started to come into my own in certain areas so that I was actually quite skilled at quite a few things related to the environment of a school kid. Then there was this ISFj-Fi girl who moved in the area and the same class. We watched each other for a year. Then she asked me if I wanted to teach her math. Being the social nincompoop that I was, I agreed with the full intention of teaching her math, believing that was what she was really interested in. So I went to her place a few times and tried to teach her. She was a bad student but nice company. We had fun, even if she didn't really learn much. She did a paper route and I helped her do that a few times. I was enjoying the situation even if I was clueless as to what she wanted from me. I could sense that something was sort of going on, but I was afraid to really take charge since I didn't really understand the situation.
So we sort of stared at each other for a few weeks? months (I don't remember?) and then there was a day on which she asked me to meet her at the basement of her house. She was acting more awkward than usual and sort of impressed upon me that she was waiting for input from me on us. I finally managed a feeble try of "will you be my girl friend?" to which she answered equally feebly "Yes." I think I hugged her and felt a great sense of relief. My first girlfriend, great, what a stud! Yeah, umm, so my reaction was basically:" great, now we're a couple, we've reached a milestone. Glad that's over with." Now for her it was obviously something quite different...
A couple of days later and the next time we really had a chance to discuss anything she was really elated. She wanted to tell me all about her new boyfriend (who I have later understood to be an ISTp). She was really happy and wanted to spend a lot more time with me and tell me all the great things about her amazing boyfriend (who did not really sound that amazing with his shotgun-crazy violent father, sucky success at education and nonexistential prospects in life, but he was amazing to her.)
I felt completely betrayed (once again. Not that that was anything new) but now that the girl had resolved her own situation she became all the more excited to hang out with me as well and she wanted to keep on telling me everything she could about her a-maaazing boy friend, which seemed both incomprehensible and utterly cruel to me. So I basically ran away from her, sent her a farewell card and cut all communication. That's it. I have no idea what happened to her after that.
Basically, despite the attraction, neither partner is actually capable of giving the other what they need. In this case, neither partner really takes steps to actually approach the other one and there is a general sense of misunderstandings and tragedy.
...
Next, Ej-Te - ISFj-Se
Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-29-2010 at 11:52 PM.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I'm willing to consider that the part where one dogmatically states the position anyway is actually not part of the interaction to be called "limiting", more like something fed and motivated by it. Probably the Empowering Ti state that succeeds the Limiting Ne state.1) If you expect that 99% certain what you experience is not really going to limit you in a meaningful way, that doesn't really seem particularly limiting.
I don't really think so. I'm no less of an INTj than I ever am when I do this, because I always retreat from the situation before anyone can seriously confront me on what I did. I don't go as far as taking responsibility for the action (aka how Se occasions Fi). Most of the time the whole process is something solely mental and none of it ends up directly influencing the world at large.2) Because of the above, I suspect that what you're describing would be more accurately connected to the latter half of the positivism arc and only tangential to the experience of negativity. Of course, since I haven't experienced the full equivalent of what you describe, I can't be certain of this but your description leaves me suspicious.
3) "I could understand if those give rise to sensations of stagnation or boredom"... I would not describe the Te - 'limiting' feeling in those terms. Rather feelings of excitement, fear and sense of loss would be appropriate.Isn't the above essentially a state of stagnation and boredom. You're describing what happens when Te is brought in full focus, imo. The ESTj state is something coming after that, when the person notices that despite situation being so rotten and worthless, s/he manages to deal with the individual challanges of the situation fine.the trip may also continue, and continue and continue, until one has lost the memory of why the hell one decided to take the stupid trip anyway and one has no clue where one is going or how one is supposed to get anywhere and one is lost on a seemingly neverending hellish cruise.
When I say "when focused on too much" I mean "to the extent of becoming full blown Te+". So I think we agree on this more than you make it seem in your post.
damn EIIs with their moral warnings.
I think the explanation where you talk about 15 year olds doesn't say much about socionics, but rather, that 15 year olds are silly.
Last edited by UDP; 03-30-2010 at 02:31 AM. Reason: Took out 'questionable language' so nobody thought I was mad, becuase an EII got me with Fi questions
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Smilex, how do you understand the fact that in Statics, Limitations are associated with the "effort" of a Creating function?
My interpretation is that it concerns a limitation not so much peculiar to one's own life as one peculiar to reality. It's a limitation that one needs to find out about by means of something other than a significant "event" that just happens to oneself. Instead one needs to make some focussed effort to analyse something outside of oneself.
It's like how natural laws are technically limitations, yet science goes through great pains to find out about these.
Ah, thank you, that seems a reasonable assumption and clarifies the picture to me.
Please, kindly ignore my suggestion of an interpretation for the same.
I agree to a point. Though I'd like to point out that the apex of being ESTj is actually maximally taciturn, so that's the point of being maximally lost. The ESTj definining moment would in my opinion be the shedding of one's choice to depart and starting to want to learn to cope. But that's almost the same thing of course.Isn't the above essentially a state of stagnation and boredom. You're describing what happens when Te is brought in full focus, imo. The ESTj state is something coming after that, when the person notices that despite situation being so rotten and worthless, s/he manages to deal with the individual challanges of the situation fine.
Yes. Def.When I say "when focused on too much" I mean "to the extent of becoming full blown Te+". So I think we agree on this more than you make it seem in your post.
My understanding of how other types reason their type traits is quite limited. Few people are so self aware as to be able to analyze themselves to a useful extent so it's really difficult to collect data... and even then it's second hand data.Smilex, how do you understand the fact that in Statics, Limitations are associated with the "effort" of a Creating function?
It's like how natural laws are technically limitations, yet science goes through great pains to find out about these. [/quote]My interpretation is that it concerns a limitation not so much peculiar to one's own life as one peculiar to reality. It's a limitation that one needs to find out about by means of something other than a significant "event" that just happens to oneself. Instead one needs to make some focussed effort to analyse something outside of oneself.
You have just significantly increased my understanding of how IJs understand this situation.
@ryu:
Sure we were acting like idiots, but we were also acting like idiots in a particular way. Anyway, she certainly wasn't the last or the oldest Ij-Fi I've witnessed doing basically this same thing.
Of my own decision back then, I have to add that I rationalized my action not as a judgment of her actions but as the only thing that I had left that I could do to help her. Basically, I assumed myself to be so completely damaged and defective that removing myself out from her life would be the only thing I could do to help her. So, anyway, not very bright action, but telling.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
smilingeyes, in another thread you wrote about your understanding of Ij-Ne. What is your understanding of Ep-Ne and Ep-Se? It's a very selfish question, but i'd appreciate your reply. cheers
I like your understanding of sensing functionsControl and influence are not the same thing. Influence is impact. Control is control.
...
This list is correct. Si doesn't attack. It controls. It doesn't resist, it manipulates, dodges, thwarts and turns attacks to its own purposes. It doesn't take damage, so it doesn't need to retaliate. It doesn't give pressure, rather it prefers do everything by itself to maintain control, and to do things in a way that leaves the least possible mark (stain). (Se = Karate, Boxing / Si = Tai Chi, Ninjutsu
This list is idiotic. It is an extremely limited view of Si and completely sells the function short.
All the answers you got, I agree with.
Thank you for your comment.
The end is nigh
What you did there is cowardly and disgusting. Including the editing note.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Too bad I'm sexier than you.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Smilingeyes, is there a possiblity that the reason why you see the ESTj type as something unhealthy and neurotic is because you're really describing an ENTj that is focussing on his PoLR function? Just curious what you think of that interpretation.
Oh? let's see a pic.Too bad I'm sexier than you.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
