INFps & ENFjs, and the need to appear intellectual and cultured

[silverchris9]

OK, I just bought a book of W.H. Auden poetry. This better be good you fuckers.

Try "In Memory of W.B. Yeats". That was the first poem I ever memorized (part of it, just the third section). It's amazing. Also, I'm almost 100% sure Auden was gamma. "Spain" is also good, though long. And of course "Musee des Beaux Arts" but I kinda hate the poem. The sentiment of it is stupid.

salami of resentment.

Band name. Album title at the least.

you aren't ISTj. you are ISFj.

Meh. I buy him as either.

[discojoe]

you aren't ISTj. you are ISFj.

Your assertions/opinions are comically irrelevant to my thought processes.

[silverchris9]

Has anyone else noticed that in all the abbreviation things, this thread's title is "Beta NFs and the need to come"? I just thought that was funny.

Your assertions/opinions are comically irrelevant to my thought processes.

You sounded kinda like a robot in that post. I was going to try to make a joke about it, but then I realized the joke wasn't funny, so I let it go.

[discojoe]

Has anyone else noticed that in all the abbreviation things, this thread's title is "Beta NFs and the need to come"? I just thought that was funny.

I should have made the title "Female Beta NFs and the need to have semen pumped into their bodies."

You sounded kinda like a robot in that post. I was going to try to make a joke about it, but then I realized the joke wasn't funny, so I let it go.

It's because crazedrat finds it intimidating.

[silverchris9]

I should have made the title "Female Beta NFs and the need to have semen pumped into their bodies."

Or you could have just left it "Female Betas..." and then the rest the same. Not that I would mind fucking an IEI, because IEI girls are very frequently hot.

But unfortunately, I also believe in god, so you know, no sex before marriage, that makes a good excuse for my lack of balls.

It's because crazedrat finds it intimidating.

For reals?

[discojoe]

Yes, when you strip away the bullshit and--as you said, robotically--dissect everything he says, he backs down real fast.

[crazedrat]

No. I don't speak to you because it is a waste of time.

[discojoe]

No. I don't speak to you because it is a waste of time.

Sure, having me make you feel stupid is a waste of time, I agree.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

eh we're not trying to be anything. We really are just that more cultured and intelligent than most people. =p It's not a 'portrayal' or an act, dearie. It's the real thing.

[DividedsGhost]

Beta NFs and the need to come off as intellectual Reply to Thread

Anyone else find the implications of that statement a bit concerning considering the nature of the discussion?

[misutii]

I have noticed for some time that Beta NFs often exhibit a need to portray themselves as cultured, intellectual, and mathematically/logically adept.

How is this explained in terms of Socionics? Is it that these particular traits are viewed by society as important aspects of power and prestige? If so, is this basically a manifestation of the absence of their duals?

My personal view toward intellectualism, etc., is that most of the kind of information that intellectuals absorb (esoteric literature and miscellaneous trivia about art and architecture) isn't actually useful in any practical way, and that the time it takes to learn all of it would be better spent mastering key career skills. It seems like you could spend several lifetimes trying to craft a hyper-intellectual persona, and unless you know for certain that you will be in positions where it is important to be seen as knowledgeable about these intellectual topics, it would be a more productive use of time to limit such learning to either useful things or things that you are genuinely interested in.

lol I don't think being seen as an intellectual increases one's power or prestige unless they're in university. As a beta NF any "intellectual image porn" I exude probably ought to be seen in a plainer, more base, and less contrived way. I don't know why but I spend a significant percentage of my free time reading and learning things that by themselves (and often even when coupled with other things) that are absolutely useless to myself and society in general, but for some reason I find learning about them interesting and the best analogy I think would be pairing this information with an addictive substance. The simple act of learning something inherently interesting (subjective to my Ni-base of course, so whenever I say interesting you should be replacing interesting with comically useless) unleashes the chemicals or electrical charges that govern mental pleasure in my brain. On the other hand, taking the time to learn actual "career" skills that would help in day to day life, by society's standards, is from what I can tell and have tried, mental masochism. Maybe because I don't have a career but have a job in construction nontheless that pays the bills and I've become too comfortable but really. It's hard for me to even imagine having a career life where all my life revolves around a career. The point of a career as I see it is merely to accumulate resources so as to more pleasurably pursue private hobbies completely unrelated to career. I was thinking about careers recently and being a librarian might not be bad . I see jobs and careers though as good to a point (providing modest living standards) but useless beyond that point because they require investing time (the most important resource I have) and in return they provide money (significantly less important than time. Like trading gold for copper.

Might also have something to do with Ni base being overdeveloped and thus using Fe as a means to pleasure itself like the dirty whore that it is. Fe can be used to find people with stockpiles of esoteric booty to be plundered.

[Morcheeba]

I'm doing Algebra right now, and it has reassured me of my inability to ever be an intellectual.

[discojoe]

lol I don't think being seen as an intellectual increases one's power or prestige unless they're in university. As a beta NF any "intellectual image porn" I exude probably ought to be seen in a plainer, more base, and less contrived way. I don't know why but I spend a significant percentage of my free time reading and learning things that by themselves (and often even when coupled with other things) that are absolutely useless to myself and society in general, but for some reason I find learning about them interesting and the best analogy I think would be pairing this information with an addictive substance. The simple act of learning something inherently interesting (subjective to my Ni-base of course, so whenever I say interesting you should be replacing interesting with comically useless) unleashes the chemicals or electrical charges that govern mental pleasure in my brain. On the other hand, taking the time to learn actual "career" skills that would help in day to day life, by society's standards, is from what I can tell and have tried, mental masochism. Maybe because I don't have a career but have a job in construction nontheless that pays the bills and I've become too comfortable but really. It's hard for me to even imagine having a career life where all my life revolves around a career. The point of a career as I see it is merely to accumulate resources so as to more pleasurably pursue private hobbies completely unrelated to career. I was thinking about careers recently and being a librarian might not be bad . I see jobs and careers though as good to a point (providing modest living standards) but useless beyond that point because they require investing time (the most important resource I have) and in return they provide money (significantly less important than time. Like trading gold for copper.

Might also have something to do with Ni base being overdeveloped and thus using Fe as a means to pleasure itself like the dirty whore that it is. Fe can be used to find people with stockpiles of esoteric booty to be plundered.

Well, I think a career should ideally be something you love to do. But if you hate or are indifferent to your work, then I guess it makes more sense to focus on different subjects.

I'm doing Algebra right now, and it has reassured me of my inability to ever be an intellectual.

Which part are you having trouble with?

[silverchris9]

I see jobs and careers though as good to a point (providing modest living standards) but useless beyond that point because they require investing time (the most important resource I have) and in return they provide money (significantly less important than time. Like trading gold for copper.

Amen. +250,000

Although I do think that art doesn't just give more prestige at a university, but also at parties with intellectuals who work at universities (and some other parties too--everyone wants to seem "cultured" and all...).

The point of a career as I see it is merely to accumulate resources so as to more pleasurably pursue private hobbies completely unrelated to career.

Yeah. That's why I either want to be a writer, a performer, or a professor, because reading, writing, and performing are pretty much all my hobbies, and I want to try to make money off of them. Otherwise I'm not sure what I'll do for cash (probably sell my soul to an ad agency).

[Morcheeba]

Which part are you having trouble with?

Really it's more of a time management issue if anything.

[Ezra]

I have noticed for some time that Beta NFs often exhibit a need to portray themselves as cultured, intellectual, and mathematically/logically adept.

How is this explained in terms of Socionics? Is it that these particular traits are viewed by society as important aspects of power and prestige? If so, is this basically a manifestation of the absence of their duals?

It's probably to do with Ti DS or HA. Maths and logic are typically Ti. I see this in a lot of ESE girls in my philosophy classes who don't really know wtf they're talking about but make an effort anyway. I'm sure the LII geek philosophers love them for it.

My personal view toward intellectualism, etc., is that most of the kind of information that intellectuals absorb (esoteric literature and miscellaneous trivia about art and architecture) isn't actually useful in any practical way, and that the time it takes to learn all of it would be better spent mastering key career skills. It seems like you could spend several lifetimes trying to craft a hyper-intellectual persona, and unless you know for certain that you will be in positions where it is important to be seen as knowledgeable about these intellectual topics, it would be a more productive use of time to limit such learning to either useful things or things that you are genuinely interested in.

For example, I have several books on things like language, history, mythology, war, science, physics, and I've even got a big fat Shakespeare. But though I find most of that stuff very interesting, I only read it when I've not got school reading or when I'm not reading some bullshit about economics. I don't really care if someone start quoting Wordsworth and I can't identify it, because it has nothing to do with me or my core interests.

I totally agree with you.

So is this how a Beta ST might direct a Beta NF into putting more focus into their subconscious ST power questing?

How? By giving them useless facts?

[Ezra]

lol I don't think being seen as an intellectual increases one's power or prestige unless they're in university. As a beta NF any "intellectual image porn" I exude probably ought to be seen in a plainer, more base, and less contrived way. I don't know why but I spend a significant percentage of my free time reading and learning things that by themselves (and often even when coupled with other things) that are absolutely useless to myself and society in general, but for some reason I find learning about them interesting and the best analogy I think would be pairing this information with an addictive substance. The simple act of learning something inherently interesting (subjective to my Ni-base of course, so whenever I say interesting you should be replacing interesting with comically useless) unleashes the chemicals or electrical charges that govern mental pleasure in my brain. On the other hand, taking the time to learn actual "career" skills that would help in day to day life, by society's standards, is from what I can tell and have tried, mental masochism. Maybe because I don't have a career but have a job in construction nontheless that pays the bills and I've become too comfortable but really. It's hard for me to even imagine having a career life where all my life revolves around a career. The point of a career as I see it is merely to accumulate resources so as to more pleasurably pursue private hobbies completely unrelated to career. I was thinking about careers recently and being a librarian might not be bad . I see jobs and careers though as good to a point (providing modest living standards) but useless beyond that point because they require investing time (the most important resource I have) and in return they provide money (significantly less important than time. Like trading gold for copper.

Might also have something to do with Ni base being overdeveloped and thus using Fe as a means to pleasure itself like the dirty whore that it is. Fe can be used to find people with stockpiles of esoteric booty to be plundered.

I love that. I didn't want to agree with discojoe when he said what he did, because of something I just couldn't explain about life. You just explained it.

[discojoe]

How? By giving them useless facts?

No, by giving them more direction in their intellectual pursuits.

For example, Barack Obama is historically illiterate and only managed to be so successful politically because of his blackness, bullshit-talking, and rich baritone voice. Remove any one of those elements (yes, even the voice) and he would not be president. Now that the public has caught on to his behavior, he has lost a ton of popularity and will probably not be reelected. I think this would have been avoided if he had spent less time trying to appear smart and more time actually learning about history and economics, which I consider the two most important subjects by far. This would have given him actual, practical perspective with which to debate positions, rather than having to rely on bullshit-talking Fe and condescending/snide remarks to anyone who disagrees with him.

While such perspective may have led him to choose different political affiliations (and it's a shame, because he could have been a brilliant conservative/libertarian), he would have been able to ensure more long-term success.

I completely agree with this sentiment. Something really bothers me about the idea of making your life about your career. Exactly so it's trading gold for copper.

You are taking my words and injecting them with all of your personal negative connotations. A career is not necessarily just a job. Stephen King is a writer by trade, and writing is something he loves to do.

The natural, enlightened Zen state of a person may not lead them to making your personal ideal life choices. A career can be personally enriching.

[07490]

Some people define themselves by their jobs. It's not something they do anymore, it's who they are. They become a position, a role, a function, and it's all they have. That kind of overfocusing on practical ambition, regardless of how much they love it, or what it means to them, robs them of the chance to enjoy so many other things. Things that could be much more valuable and meaningful to their life. So, if someone gets the chance to dip into other things that they enjoy, and skip out on building their career skills, I'm all for it. Single-minded determination towards a goal has its place, but doing things for no other purpose than because you want to does too.

sigh, I regret being an Enneagram three (why did I choose this life when I reincarnate, they didn't teach Enneagram in Heaven school?) , But if I find a girl like you all problems will be solved.

[redbaron]

sigh, I regret being an Enneagram three (why did I choose this life when I reincarnate, they didn't teach Enneagram in Heaven school?) , But if I find a girl like you all problems will be solved.

Cuz she's your dual.

[07490]

Cuz she's your dual.

Where can I find them and how do I approach them? I know confidence isn't one

[Satan]

i still havent' found my fucking dual

[redbaron]

i still havent' found my fucking dual

[silverchris9]

No, by giving them more direction in their intellectual pursuits.

For example, Barack Obama is historically illiterate and only managed to be so successful politically because of his blackness, bullshit-talking, and rich baritone voice. Remove any one of those elements (yes, even the voice) and he would not be president. Now that the public has caught on to his behavior, he has lost a ton of popularity and will probably not be reelected. I think this would have been avoided if he had spent less time trying to appear smart and more time actually learning about history and economics, which I consider the two most important subjects by far. This would have given him actual, practical perspective with which to debate positions, rather than having to rely on bullshit-talking Fe and condescending/snide remarks to anyone who disagrees with him.

How the LSI used to phrase things would spike my emotions because he would say things that I perceived as fucked up, like they were fact, and it pissed me the heck off. Things that I didnt want to acknowledge as true, despite the logicality of it.

Also, I don't know that Barack Obama is so much historically illiterate as willing to deliberately misrepresent history. That may be a bad thing, but he rode in on the myth-making train, and the nature of myth-making is to misrepresent history.

But I don't want to get in an argument because I've had too many of those lately! *flees from Ti* (unless it's actually Fi).

Anyway, didn't I already deploy my Richard Rorty quote? Knowing more books just makes your life better, whether it's in any way practical or not. It's like the mad scene in King Lear (to say nothing of some parts of Hamlet). It actually serves no dramatic purpose. You could pretty much take it out of the play and the play would still be logical. But no production would cut it. It's just perfect and wonderful and awesome, and people like it.

Didn't you ever skip class/studying to go to the museum, discojoe? (as I am planning to do this saturday probably)

[discojoe]

Also, I don't know that Barack Obama is so much historically illiterate as willing to deliberately misrepresent history. That may be a bad thing, but he rode in on the myth-making train, and the nature of myth-making is to misrepresent history.

I can't recall each instance of this, but on several occasions he has made incorrect statements (objectively, not interpretively) about Western History. One of them had to do with Hirohito, but I forget exactly what he said.

But I don't want to get in an argument because I've had too many of those lately! *flees from Ti* (unless it's actually Fi).

This discussion is Ti.

Anyway, didn't I already deploy my Richard Rorty quote? Knowing more books just makes your life better, whether it's in any way practical or not. It's like the mad scene in King Lear (to say nothing of some parts of Hamlet). It actually serves no dramatic purpose. You could pretty much take it out of the play and the play would still be logical. But no production would cut it. It's just perfect and wonderful and awesome, and people like it.

I agree that reading books enriches you, but there are so many that it becomes a problem when you don't discriminate based on some type of priority.

Didn't you ever skip class/studying to go to the museum, discojoe? (as I am planning to do this saturday probably)

Actually, I find museums boring unless I know about the history of the art or artifacts on display. That's one area where it really counts to know your stuff.

[discojoe]

For me however, no matter how much I might enjoy it, a job is just one thing that I do. (Well, I do more than just one thing, but you know what I mean.) It doesn't encompass my whole life, and I most definitely do not choose to do things in my off-time for how they'll enhance or help me in my job. I would never in a million years suggest that anyone else should either. There are worse things to be than impractical.

I was talking about Beta NFs and my personal preferences on time management in regard to learning. I was not making sweeping statements about what all people should do with their own time.

Some people define themselves by their jobs. It's not something they do anymore, it's who they are. They become a position, a role, a function, and it's all they have. That kind of overfocusing on practical ambition, regardless of how much they love it, or what it means to them, robs them of the chance to enjoy so many other things. Things that could be much more valuable and meaningful to their life. So, if someone gets the chance to dip into other things that they enjoy, and skip out on building their career skills, I'm all for it. Single-minded determination towards a goal has its place, but doing things for no other purpose than because you want to does too.

I do not believe that everyone who is "defined by their jobs" is necessarily unhealthy. I think some people love their work and it just naturally consumes them.

[silverchris9]

I can't recall each instance of this, but on several occasions he has made incorrect statements (objectively, not interpretively) about Western History. One of them had to do with Hirohito, but I forget exactly what he said.

Fine.

I agree that reading books enriches you, but there are so many that it becomes a problem when you don't discriminate based on some type of priority.

Exactly! That's what Harold Bloom is for. One of the important parts of literary criticism is determining which book is better than another one. For instance, you should probably read Shakespeare rather than Dan Koontz or whatever his name is.

Actually, I find museums boring unless I know about the history of the art or artifacts on display. That's one area where it really counts to know your stuff.

Oh, not at all! I went to the museum the other day and had no clue about any of the paintings but they were just beautiful! I walked mostly around the European paintings, portraits, etc., and it was awesome. It reminded me of Shakespeare, actually, in the "representation of persons".

[discojoe]

I think your approach and emphasis in the conversation may actually be Te. I had almost this same conversation with Expat once. I couldn't get him to see what I was talking about either. And I know that isn't any kind of "proof" and you seem in the mood to argue, so whatever.

From my perspective it seems like you are the one who is not understanding. Perhaps we each understand the other but do not understand that the other understands us.

Exactly! That's what Harold Bloom is for. One of the important parts of literary criticism is determining which book is better than another one. For instance, you should probably read Shakespeare rather than Dan Koontz or whatever his name is.

What standards are used in determining one book's rank relative to another's? Societal values?

Oh, not at all! I went to the museum the other day and had no clue about any of the paintings but they were just beautiful! I walked mostly around the European paintings, portraits, etc., and it was awesome. It reminded me of Shakespeare, actually, in the "representation of persons".

I find it boring to walk through a museum without some basic literacy of what I am looking at. I like to play with my knowledge and see how it corresponds to reality. The only exception is ancient historical artifacts; I am fascinated by anything very old, like my 5 million year old mosquito that is trapped in amber.

[redbaron]

One of the important parts of literary criticism is determining which book is better than another one. For instance, you should probably read Shakespeare rather than Dan Koontz or whatever his name is.

100% correct.

[Ezra]

i still havent' found my fucking dual

Are you out and about in clubs, bars, classes, societies' evenings and other events of that nature?

Also have you tried hitting on glamourama or Starfall?


Or someone closer to you?

[discojoe]

100% correct.

Wrong. It's only 87% correct.

[silverchris9]

What standards are used in determining one book's rank relative to another's? Societal values?

No, thank God. Aesthetic appreciation, basically. Harold Bloom's standards are:

1) Aesthetic splendor
2) Cognitive originality
3) Wisdom

He doesn't make it clear what any of those words mean, but you can pretty much get a sense of it if you read enough. The pragmatic test is rereading: if you can read the same work multiple times and still get something new out of it, then it is a good book. That's the first basic test. From there it's a lot muddier, you really have to feel it out. I have my own series of metaphors for it, which are vaguely stolen from/related to the kabbalah kinda. (But only kabbalah as filtered through HB, my Virgil).

I find it boring to walk through a museum without some basic literacy of what I am looking at. I like to play with my knowledge and see how it corresponds to reality. The only exception is ancient historical artifacts; I am fascinated by anything very old, like my 5 million year old mosquito that is trapped in amber.

Huh. Well, if that works for you, cool. I dunno, I think that context and understanding of that sort only serves to improve the basic experience of aesthetic appreciation. It makes the wow more wow, but the wow still has to be there in the first place.

The 5 million year old mosquito is really cool. Kind of incredible. But I much prefer pictures of people. But I think I like painting more than photography. It's like the difference between real people and the "real" people in Shakespeare (although I rather think the scare-quotes should around people in real life, who are, I think, less real than the people in Shakespeare).

[Ezra]

Wrong. It's only 87% correct.

Yeah he spelt Dean Koontz's name wrong.