Hikikomori

[godslave]

This is a Thread about the Hikikomori / NEET condition and the psychosocial phenomena that could be leading to that pathology.

I am a Gen X Hikikomori

[godslave]

Hiroshi Yamazoe is sharing with us how he became Hikikomori. It's heartbreaking so viewer discretion is advised.

[The Reality Denialist]

Or as we call it in my mother tongue: A Sweat Cabinet (Japanese can sound so funny to Finns).

Anyway, my case for some sort of reluctance to embrace this stuff is the following: Are we just classifying external outcomes?

[godslave]

Hikikomori Vue de France

[The Reality Denialist]

Hikikomori Vue de France

I'm thinking that that is some similarity across these two countries.

I once visited Finnish version 4chan that had this Sweat Cabinet section . Lots of them seemed to align more with the typical incel mindset.

[godslave]

I'm thinking that that is some similarity across these two countries.

I once visited Finnish version 4chan that had this Sweat Cabinet section . Lots of them seemed to align more with the typical incel mindset.

Indeed, but incels don't necessarily isolate themselves from society the way Hikikomori do. Furthermore, incels are classified as a "hate group" (misogynistic) with its rules and ideology. It's a community even a minority one could say. That gregorius notion and sense of belonging to a community doesn't apply to Hikikomori. When it comes to "mindset" I have reason to believe that contrary to the incels doctrine, the vast majority of Hikikomori are harmless and don't focus on a particular hatred although of course there are exceptions .

[The Reality Denialist]

These males that become recluses are interesting. I'm exhausted of hearing easy labels like autism applied, all the nuance goes like puff and blanket stereotypes gets introduced.

Just to expand on this. A teenage boy finds Darwinism repulsive, has complete existential crisis gets labelled as trans because he likes music and poetry, later gets transformed into a eunuch, realizes his mistake, gets labelled autistic. The last label is not that destructive compared to other stuff but you kind of question reasons. Do people need this badly, easy authoritative answers and labels?

[Ikite iru]

it might be that due to suggestive Se, a specific group more blindly follows established institutions with credentials and terminology. it's like things have to be precisely defined and words that I personally throw around at random or forget a bit very soon become very significant for others.

regarding hikikomori, I am familiar with it. I don't think I belong into this group because I can socialize very easily if I want to but very often I have no desire. Especially in my early twenties I was very disconnected from everything around me and honestly just very bored with people and society and escaping into virtual reality is just more rewarding. at least personally I became aware that through the internet, you can essentially study and spend your time with the works of the most gifted people yet even in big cities you will often encounter people that are just uninteresting. at least that's how it is for me, but other people have probably different reasons or they don't even have a choice. it's a weird kind of way of living considering that in any other time in human history, you would not have been able to exist as a hiki but it's becoming more and more widespread. 10 years ago I would have said it's a common phenomenon among INxx types but dropping out of society is definitely more common in general nowadays. what are sensible introverted intuitives even supposed to do in an environment with fierce competition for resources, status and high individualism? there's no support you could rely on when you are abstract and impractical, so you just drop out of society. it's the safest option.

[Distance]

Induced trauma can be dramatic for some, where others are unaffected and it all reduces down to your limbic responses via your sensitivity. E.g., why do some get PTSD in military combat zones, and others walk away unscathed fighting in the same real estate, shoulder to shoulder?

There is a high correlation with GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) with PTSD, if you have a proclivity to GAD, those under those scenarios there is a much higher risk for the worse stress disorder. Also there is avoidant disorder that arises from this.

Somewhere in mix, there is an emotive response that fails in us, where it doesn't work, even stranding some in unreactive modes where you are on the other side of the coin with an attachment disorder. Not anxiety per se but anxiety stemming from being close in distance in relationships, like schizoid tendencies or with feelings of being impaired by it.

Overall in extremes, there is something afoul, and you can pin it all your limbic responses, like on dopamine rewards or not, in being neutral, or with higher anxiety amygdala reactions.

It takes two: nurture and nature in the old cliche.

I will call anything a disorder if that interferes with day to day living, from dwarfism to autism. It isn't natural or normative on the extremes of height, nor processing.

[The Reality Denialist]

Marie-Louise von Franz: Slaying the Dragon


The site, I have to say, seems to use abominable javascript features that really protects content gaining any popularity.

For example, I once listened to the dream of a young man who was living still with his mama. He was twenty-nine years old and had never had a
girl in his room. We seriously discussed the possibility of his getting a room outside his mother’s home. He was terrified. He was a very sensitive,
delicate boy, and his mother had a very brutal, strong personality, and he was just terrified of the moment he would have to tell mother, “Look here,
I’m going to take a room outside, and I’m not going to live with you anymore. ”
When he was trying to make up his mind to move out, he dreamt that he had to slay the dragon. Though telling his mother that he had to move out
seems like such a little thing to us, for him that was slaying the dragon. It was overcoming a monstrous neurotic difficulty within himself. His
whole mother complex was involved, not only facing the scene with his actual mother, but overcoming also the inertia and the anxiousness of his
own mother complex. His mother had sown in him an anxiousness, a fear of life. He had to overcome that terrific fear to make that step.
And that is an archetypal motif all over the world. The young man has to do the heroic deed of killing his mother, or the mother dragon, or the
mother demon, which is his lethargy, or anxiety, or fear of living a masculine life. And it won’t help the young man only to understand that he has a
mother complex and that his neurotic symptoms come from his mother tie. He has to actually take the other room and stand the battle.

[Tallmo]

Or as we call it in my mother tongue: A Sweat Cabinet (Japanese can sound so funny to Finns).

Anyway, my case for some sort of reluctance to embrace this stuff is the following: Are we just classifying external outcomes?

Yes, probably.

There is probably a mother complex in the background. Archetypically it's linked to a feeling of being secure, protected from the world, like the mother protects you. If this continues into adulthood it could easily lead to something like hikikomori.
However, a mother complex can also lead to the opposite, enthusiastic engagement in the world and adventures, but in a dissociated way lacking groundedness, bubbly like a glass of champagne.
Von Franz has written about this in the book "The problem of the puer aethernus"

[godslave]

Marie-Louise von Franz: Slaying the Dragon


The site, I have to say, seems to use abominable javascript features that really protects content gaining any popularity.

---

[godslave]

Yes, probably.

There is probably a mother complex in the background. Archetypically it's linked to a feeling of being secure, protected from the world, like the mother protects you. If this continues into adulthood it could easily lead to something like hikikomori.
However, a mother complex can also lead to the opposite, enthusiastic engagement in the world and adventures, but in a dissociated way lacking groundedness, bubbly like a glass of champagne.
Von Franz has written about this in the book "The problem of the puer aethernus"

Indeed it seems to go even deeper, it's suggests a form of regression to a state comparable to that of a fetus. Indeed the state of isolation combined with the feeling of appeasement in safe environment evokes the security of the mother's womb. In the case of severe Hikikomori, the mother brings food to him (literally leave it in front of his door). This also illustrates the symbolic and unconscious desire for a reconnection with the umbilical cord.

Having said that, I would not establish a direct causality between the "mother complex" idea and the Hikikomori condition.


https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...92#post1538592

[pzombieLIT]

This is a Thread about the Hikikomori / NEET condition and the psychosocial phenomena that could be leading to that pathology.

I am a Gen X Hikikomori

Ummm...so I'm not sure...did you want to talk about this? It's weird, I didn't imagine this is the forum. But I guess it is. And I guess I am somewhat included in that, from mild to moderate, depending, according to him, but I'm older and not dependent on anyone or anything, just a lot of saved money, but I'm not sure what it means (and he doesn't seem to know either)...

There was a video I watched years ago about the declining birth rate in Japan (and how it was going to be a big problem) and I just remember they basically attributed it to women seeking careers over men and babies, the men wanting video games over women because they were poor and work was too competitive and stressful, they felt they couldn't have families, and just wanted to enjoy their lives as best they could. Then they went to Hikikomori, but it was kind of a different angle, not one of trauma, but of children realizing it was a losing battle in the workforce and wanting to stay at home with a loving mother (usually), living minimally, but they could read or do art or whatever they wanted.

But, and this is just personally, from my angle, this was intentional and purposeful for me. I had a falling out at work with people that backstabbed me and a home I was renovating in a neighborhood that was changing from poor to middle class. When I moved in, the house next to me was empty, but then one day the neighbor showed up. Without too many details, his house was stripped out and he was "fixing" it, but ended up with drug users and homeless people at his house. I eventually found out the house was his grandparents, they passed, but left the house and money to him through a trust (I think because he was a drug user and were trying to help him). Anyway, he wrecked everything, went to jail, at one point somebody was dealing drugs out of his house...Socionically (if it matters), he was either a screwd up EIE or screwed up SEE or something like that...but and again without too much details...he decided one day he didn't like me, came at me super aggressive (I'm guessing he was on meth), but seemed to back down once he realized I wasn't fazed. I was getting overloaded with negative emotions in general and mistakenly took some shrooms (because it always worked well previously). Well pretty much every negative emotion and experience I had throughout my life that I "repressed" invaded my thoughts with insufferable unrelenting color and I pretty much was moaning and crying and really wanted to die for like 4 hours lol. So I quit my job, sold the house, moved, decided I need to deal with all of my shit before getting another job or trusting people again (because let's face it, having relationships means people will hurt you and break any trust and you kind of have to be mentally prepared). Strangely, this brought me back to Socionics, a toxic cesspool of people being unhelpful and kind of hurting each other (though that's the internet in general as well), but I felt like I needed to sort it out as part of dealing with all my bullshit (because it is psychoanalytic in nature). And therapy just seems like a rip off honestly, if you can sort out your own problems, anyway, and it's kind of weird because they aren't your "friend", but just get paid to be "impartial", which honestly for effective therapy don't humans need some kind of connection that isn't based on an exchange of money? I don't understand therapy, it's dealing with the personal by trying to be impersonal. It makes no sense.

anyway, I forget what I'm even talking about at this point. I guess the other thing is if someone is a recluse because of trauma and are avoidant or have social anxiety or are just avoiding things, that sounds unhealthy. But if it's used to deal with, come to terms with, and overcome negative feelings so you can eventually go back to life, it's fine imo. Hopefully, I'm not deluding myself and that's what I'm doing! But I think it is already. Even driving around when I used to get stressed out a lot, I don't anymore. Social anxiety I don't worry as much, like I might feel anxiety, but I don't dwell on it, and if I fuck up socially, oh well, I don't dwell on it, and as soon as it's over, I just forget about it without repressing anything negative about it, if that makes sense. I think I'm also becoming very much like a Buddhist, but that's good I think. Trying my best not to project negative feelings as much as possible anymore.

[Adam Strange]

Quoted for greatness:

Ummm...so I'm not sure...did you want to talk about this? It's weird, I didn't imagine this is the forum. But I guess it is. And I guess I am somewhat included in that, from mild to moderate, depending, according to him, but I'm older and not dependent on anyone or anything, just a lot of saved money, but I'm not sure what it means (and he doesn't seem to know either)...

There was a video I watched years ago about the declining birth rate in Japan (and how it was going to be a big problem) and I just remember they basically attributed it to women seeking careers over men and babies, the men wanting video games over women because they were poor and work was too competitive and stressful, they felt they couldn't have families, and just wanted to enjoy their lives as best they could. Then they went to Hikikomori, but it was kind of a different angle, not one of trauma, but of children realizing it was a losing battle in the workforce and wanting to stay at home with a loving mother (usually), living minimally, but they could read or do art or whatever they wanted.

But, and this is just personally, from my angle, this was intentional and purposeful for me. I had a falling out at work with people that backstabbed me and a home I was renovating in a neighborhood that was changing from poor to middle class. When I moved in, the house next to me was empty, but then one day the neighbor showed up. Without too many details, his house was stripped out and he was "fixing" it, but ended up with drug users and homeless people at his house. I eventually found out the house was his grandparents, they passed, but left the house and money to him through a trust (I think because he was a drug user and were trying to help him). Anyway, he wrecked everything, went to jail, at one point somebody was dealing drugs out of his house...Socionically (if it matters), he was either a screwd up EIE or screwed up SEE or something like that...but and again without too much details...he decided one day he didn't like me, came at me super aggressive (I'm guessing he was on meth), but seemed to back down once he realized I wasn't fazed. I was getting overloaded with negative emotions in general and mistakenly took some shrooms (because it always worked well previously). Well pretty much every negative emotion and experience I had throughout my life that I "repressed" invaded my thoughts with insufferable unrelenting color and I pretty much was moaning and crying and really wanted to die for like 4 hours lol. So I quit my job, sold the house, moved, decided I need to deal with all of my shit before getting another job or trusting people again (because let's face it, having relationships means people will hurt you and break any trust and you kind of have to be mentally prepared).

Strangely, this brought me back to Socionics, a toxic cesspool of people being unhelpful and kind of hurting each other

(though that's the internet in general as well), but I felt like I needed to sort it out as part of dealing with all my bullshit (because it is psychoanalytic in nature). And therapy just seems like a rip off honestly, if you can sort out your own problems, anyway, and it's kind of weird because they aren't your "friend", but just get paid to be "impartial", which honestly for effective therapy don't humans need some kind of connection that isn't based on an exchange of money? I don't understand therapy, it's dealing with the personal by trying to be impersonal. It makes no sense.

anyway, I forget what I'm even talking about at this point. I guess the other thing is if someone is a recluse because of trauma and are avoidant or have social anxiety or are just avoiding things, that sounds unhealthy. But if it's used to deal with, come to terms with, and overcome negative feelings so you can eventually go back to life, it's fine imo. Hopefully, I'm not deluding myself and that's what I'm doing! But I think it is already. Even driving around when I used to get stressed out a lot, I don't anymore. Social anxiety I don't worry as much, like I might feel anxiety, but I don't dwell on it, and if I fuck up socially, oh well, I don't dwell on it, and as soon as it's over, I just forget about it without repressing anything negative about it, if that makes sense. I think I'm also becoming very much like a Buddhist, but that's good I think. Trying my best not to project negative feelings as much as possible anymore.

[The Reality Denialist]

Problem of the Puer Aeternus

[godslave]

Problem of the Puer Aeternus

Thanks very much for the Book ! I will finally read a Marie-Louise Von Franz book !

I've linked that excellent video a few posts above. It's the opening of my "Peter Pan Syndrome (Puer Aeternus)" thread that I started about two years ago...

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

Indeed, but incels don't necessarily isolate themselves from society the way Hikikomori do. Furthermore, incels are classified as a "hate group" (misogynistic) with its rules and ideology. It's a community even a minority one could say. That gregorius notion and sense of belonging to a community doesn't apply to Hikikomori. When it comes to "mindset" I have reason to believe that contrary to the incels doctrine, the vast majority of Hikikomori are harmless and don't focus on a particular hatred although of course there are exceptions .

being an incel does not equate toe hating women and being hikikomori means being shut in. someone can be incel without hiki and vice versa. both can hate or not hate women. however if theres violent incels and ur non violent and u join their grups mb u can fear being linched harassed doxxed and physically killed or harmed or ur life damaged etc.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

These males that become recluses are interesting. I'm exhausted of hearing easy labels like autism applied, all the nuance goes like puff and blanket stereotypes gets introduced.

Just to expand on this. A teenage boy finds Darwinism repulsive, has complete existential crisis gets labelled as trans because he likes music and poetry, later gets transformed into a eunuch, realizes his mistake, gets labelled autistic. The last label is not that destructive compared to other stuff but you kind of question reasons. Do people need this badly, easy authoritative answers and labels?

autistic ppl have different emotions and processing that often means they are way more populous in alternative groups if not starting them themselves. autistic men and women both have higher T levels than average and u cvan see they have more boney bone structure. femboys have the biggest cocks its a meme for a reason. LGBTQ+ is correlated to cluster B personality disorders and trauma, but also autism. autistic ppl can be hypersensitive and hypo sensitive thus prone to self harm, they are already prone to depression and mental illness bc of this society. trans ppl tend to say they felt different since children and they prolly picked some patterns that they were different or were shamed for their interests since then too. autistic ppl have gender non conforming behaivor. being into art as a male is looked donw upon and most normies if their environment was super hostile towards it, would literally drop their interest and transform to be like the others want them to be, or have enough social saviness to convince them otherwise, then theirp oetry would align with what most ppl like anyway, while autistic individual will piss ppl off socially, will piss them off bc of their specific interest and will resist the pressure anyway bc they would break and are prolly breaking down anyway too much in other areas.

[godslave]

Ummm...so I'm not sure...did you want to talk about this? It's weird, I didn't imagine this is the forum. But I guess it is. And I guess I am somewhat included in that, from mild to moderate, depending, according to him, but I'm older and not dependent on anyone or anything, just a lot of saved money, but I'm not sure what it means (and he doesn't seem to know either)...

I'm independent financially since the age 25. Even prior to that I would seldom ask my mother for stuff (I don't remember ever spontaneously asked my father to buy me anything). I sort of lived at my parent place until age 42. I say sort of because Since 1997, I've lived alternately in France and Africa (like most Americans like to call any country in Africa !), spending an average of six months in each country (sometimes up to 9 months in Africa !).

I'm also independent , I have saved money (much more that I should have, giving my situation). I also have music gears of value and stuff. However, things have gotten worse since I started living alone in my own apartment. An incident with a person whom I trusted made me fall into a deep depression, triggered my Anxiety disorder, It also made me paranoid (it took me two years to get rid of that paranoia). I probably subscribed to this forum much more to have a semblance of socialization than to talk about socionics. I have to say that this forum helped me but at the same time it takes too much of my time and I'm kinda addicted to it.

There was a video I watched years ago about the declining birth rate in Japan (and how it was going to be a big problem) and I just remember they basically attributed it to women seeking careers over men and babies, the men wanting video games over women because they were poor and work was too competitive and stressful, they felt they couldn't have families, and just wanted to enjoy their lives as best they could. Then they went to Hikikomori, but it was kind of a different angle, not one of trauma, but of children realizing it was a losing battle in the workforce and wanting to stay at home with a loving mother (usually), living minimally, but they could read or do art or whatever they wanted.

You made some good points indeed. Each story is different but the Trauma (it has to be there), social pressure, the feeling of inadequacy leading to a stagnation and a more or less conscious refusal to grow up (Puer Aeternus), the pleasure principle (escaping pain (both psychological and physical)) all these things add up in most Hikikomori cases. It's not necessarily a Te issue by the way even if it obviously seems like it from an external point of view.

 

But, and this is just personally, from my angle, this was intentional and purposeful for me. I had a falling out at work with people that backstabbed me and a home I was renovating in a neighborhood that was changing from poor to middle class. When I moved in, the house next to me was empty, but then one day the neighbor showed up. Without too many details, his house was stripped out and he was "fixing" it, but ended up with drug users and homeless people at his house. I eventually found out the house was his grandparents, they passed, but left the house and money to him through a trust (I think because he was a drug user and were trying to help him). Anyway, he wrecked everything, went to jail, at one point somebody was dealing drugs out of his house...Socionically (if it matters), he was either a screwd up EIE or screwed up SEE or something like that...but and again without too much details...he decided one day he didn't like me, came at me super aggressive (I'm guessing he was on meth), but seemed to back down once he realized I wasn't fazed. I was getting overloaded with negative emotions in general and mistakenly took some shrooms (because it always worked well previously). Well pretty much every negative emotion and experience I had throughout my life that I "repressed" invaded my thoughts with insufferable unrelenting color and I pretty much was moaning and crying and really wanted to die for like 4 hours lol. So I quit my job, sold the house, moved, decided I need to deal with all of my shit before getting another job or trusting people again (because let's face it, having relationships means people will hurt you and break any trust and you kind of have to be mentally prepared). Strangely, this brought me back to Socionics, a toxic cesspool of people being unhelpful and kind of hurting each other (though that's the internet in general as well), but I felt like I needed to sort it out as part of dealing with all my bullshit (because it is psychoanalytic in nature). And therapy just seems like a rip off honestly, if you can sort out your own problems, anyway, and it's kind of weird because they aren't your "friend", but just get paid to be "impartial", which honestly for effective therapy don't humans need some kind of connection that isn't based on an exchange of money? I don't understand therapy, it's dealing with the personal by trying to be impersonal. It makes no sense.

anyway, I forget what I'm even talking about at this point. I guess the other thing is if someone is a recluse because of trauma and are avoidant or have social anxiety or are just avoiding things, that sounds unhealthy. But if it's used to deal with, come to terms with, and overcome negative feelings so you can eventually go back to life, it's fine imo. Hopefully, I'm not deluding myself and that's what I'm doing! But I think it is already. Even driving around when I used to get stressed out a lot, I don't anymore. Social anxiety I don't worry as much, like I might feel anxiety, but I don't dwell on it, and if I fuck up socially, oh well, I don't dwell on it, and as soon as it's over, I just forget about it without repressing anything negative about it, if that makes sense. I think I'm also becoming very much like a Buddhist, but that's good I think. Trying my best not to project negative feelings as much as possible anymore.

Thank you very much for your time and sharing with us.

[Ikite iru]

I think this trend will get more and more common especially among normalizing and harmonizing Ni-base men. I know a couple of these people online. it's very often highly creative sensible people.

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. - Jiddu Krishnamurti