Shalom Schwartz' diagram of human values

[krieger]

Here is a theory on human values that is empirically sound and points out certain trends that should be easy to correlate to socionics:

http://a0.vox.com/6a00fad6b1b3df0005...9648000c-320pi

Universal value - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Should the quadrants of the diagram be linked to Quadras or to Clubs?

What I think is not so hard to establish:

Self-direction: alpha NT
Universalism, benevolence: delta NF
Conformity, tradition, security: ISFj, ISTj (slightly lesser extent)
Hedonism: Ti/Fe valuing Irrationals
Power, achievement: beta rationals

[silverchris9]

Here is a theory on human values that is empirically sound

...

Anyway:
openness to change = Ne, self-transcendence = NF, sure, but also Ni in general, in the pure good of theory, self-enhancement = Se, so conservative should = Si, but I'm not so sure. Maybe delta Si.

I agree that it actually corresponds better to club than to any function. Self-transcendence as a label actually applies to beta NF just as much as delta NF, imo, although the "self-transcendence" occurs in different ways.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

...

Don't believe that statement? Then you fail. Everything you see in that diagram is shaped from data retrieved in empirical tests. People from around the world were asked what their values in life consist in and were asked how high they would rate the values of previous takers of the test. Certain values were found to correlate negatively and positively with other values. When the values are arranged like they are in the diagram, the distance between the values in the diagram perfectly links up with said correlations.

I really don't see why the first two responses to this thread have to be negative ones. This stuff should genuinely excite anyone who is concerned with the problem of proving that socionics is real. The guy that made this thing didn't start with an idea and then tried to force the data into that idea's mold. He just collected data and ended up with something that looks like socionics!

It's not hard at all. Good to know that all the Alpha and Beta Irrationals live to eat, sleep and make sex. Aushra included.

The word "all" turns your statement into a strawman. It's not hard to proove from an analysis of type descriptions that an association between at least the types ISFp and ESTp and hedonism is already part of canon socionics. It's not like I'm the first person ever to make a blanket statement about people in the name of psychology, by the way.

I agree that it actually corresponds better to club than to any function. Self-transcendence as a label actually applies to beta NF just as much as delta NF, imo, although the "self-transcendence" occurs in different ways.

Ok... Problem that I see with linking this to clubs is that people report not having a high esteem of the values across from theirs in the diagram. This would be easier to explain if the quadras were linked to the quadrants instead.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Didn't he create the OC?

[krieger]

Josh Schwartz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not the same guy.

[CILi]

Could very well be personality related, but might be confounded by other stuff.

As an undergrad, I did a US-based study (a pilot, anyway) on Schwartz's values and found a couple stat-significant correlations.


GENDER

Women score higher on most Collectivist traits: Benevolence, Security, Tradition, Spirituality, and Embeddedness.

AGE

Conformity and Security rise with age.
Power and Stimulation decrease.

MARRIAGE

Married/partnered folk score higher on Conformity, Tradition, and Spirituality.

EDUCATION

College attenders/grads score higher on Stimulation.

EMPLOYMENT

Workers score higher on Achievement, Hedonism, Stimulation, and Mastery.

INCOME

Generally, mo' $ is linked to Achievement, Power, Self-Direction, Hierarchy, and Mastery.
Counter-intuitively, the less a person makes, the less Collectivist they are.
(Apparently, poor people feel pretty Individualist: a "me v. the world" kinda thing.)


All that said, these "values" might be more about the hand life deals you than sociotype and all that quadra jazz.

[krieger]

Thnaks, that is interesting to know about.

EDUCATION

College attenders/grads score higher on Stimulation.

EMPLOYMENT

Workers score higher on Achievement, Hedonism, Stimulation, and Mastery.

INCOME

Generally, mo' $ is linked to Achievement, Power, Self-Direction, Hierarchy, and Mastery.
Counter-intuitively, the less a person makes, the less Collectivist they are.
(Apparently, poor people feel pretty Individualist: a "me v. the world" kinda thing.)

Chicken-egg problem applies here, though. Which of these is the cause and which the effect?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Galen]

Shalom Schwartz is by far the jewiest name I've ever heard.

[krieger]

Word. The guy can't hear the difference between people greeting him and calling him by name..

[krieger]

I agree with "hedonist" for SEI using comparison, but not for the other three. If you thought that it applies to SEI and SLE only, why didn't you use "Ti/Fe Sensory Irrationals" instead? The word "all" was and implication of your association then, not my addition. Who's the strawman again? LMAO!

Glad we're all having such fun.

I disagree with SLE as hedonists, though. In my knowledge and experience, SLEs are interested in achieving great deeds and they are fascinated by solving diverse problems, etc.

Do you type those two guys from Top Gear as ESTp like everyone does? Do you call them hedonistic?

If I'd have to think about the most "hedonist" types, I'd say SEI and SEE.

Could be. Gonna be hard to link that up with the model, though.

[CILi]

EDUCATION
EMPLOYMENT
INCOME

Chicken-egg problem applies here, though. Which of these is the cause and which the effect?

I agree with that completely and, for all I know, it's a bit of both.

On another note, what if sociotypes are linked to some of those demographic stats? (That's one of the main reasons I even ran the study.)

[Lotus]

Self-direction: alpha NT
Universalism, benevolence: delta NF
Conformity, tradition, security: ISFj, ISTj (slightly lesser extent)
Hedonism: Ti/Fe valuing Irrationals
Power, achievement: beta rationals

dear god…

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Do you type those two guys from Top Gear as ESTp like everyone does? Do you call them hedonistic?

The British Top Gear, which 2? There's only 1 ESTp on it as I can see (oh, i'm not looking to derail your thread, i'm just curious).

[crazedrat]

i don't like shaloms name so i'm not going to consider his ideas.

[silverchris9]

Don't believe that statement? Then you fail. Everything you see in that diagram is shaped from data retrieved in empirical tests. People from around the world were asked what their values in life consist in and were asked how high they would rate the values of previous takers of the test. Certain values were found to correlate negatively and positively with other values. When the values are arranged like they are in the diagram, the distance between the values in the diagram perfectly links up with said correlations.

Problem with these statements:

People from around the world were asked what their values in life consist in and were asked how high they would rate the values of previous takers of the test.

You really think people know their values? You think that people's associations with a single word are so similar that the same word can mean the exact same thing to even two people, much less to a bunch of people who take a survey? You think people are capable of being honest with themselves about what their values are? I'm not. At best, this measures what people think their values are, and even then, there's the enormous problem of the variable meanings of all of those words. And then, it's people from around the world? So they had to translate this value-judgment words? Well that sends it all to hell, if it wasn't there before! Then there's the problem of outliers. For something like, say, the length of a person's thumb, there's only going to be so many outliers, and we have firm categories to put all those outliers in (i.e., a number). That is, there is a reasonably small standard deviation. But for something as vague and personal as "values" (which most people don't even think about for more than fifteen minutes at the end of a sermon on Sunday mornings), there will be far more outliers and even people who don't fit into the categories we give them at all; some values don't even have names yet! The standard deviation on something like values is not only large, it's essentially unknowable, since we can't have a category or a word for every single value, maybe not even every type of value.

I'm not saying it's not a perfectly valuable survey, and may even correlate to some degree with reality, but I am saying that doing statistics on the soul has certain affinities with me trying to determine via existential energy wave analysis and psychological guesswork whether or not there's oil hidden under a given field. You need since, statistics, surveys, analysis for something like that. You need something different to try to figure out the "values" of a group of people.

So, to summarize, problem with those statements:

People.

I really don't see why the first two responses to this thread have to be negative ones. This stuff should genuinely excite anyone who is concerned with the problem of proving that socionics is real. The guy that made this thing didn't start with an idea and then tried to force the data into that idea's mold. He just collected data and ended up with something that looks like socionics!

Well, from that perspective, sure, but I'm not really concerned with empirically "proving" socionics. It's a system of conceptual categories, based on some semi-mystical stuff that I actively choose not to look into mixed with Carl Jung (that is, mixed with more semi-mystical stuff that I do choose to actively look into). It's a system, by human ingenuity derived, from human wisdom culled, for understanding human beings in some small way through the manipulation of terms. In other words, it's poetry (or art, if you prefer). If someone can empirically prove my art, so much the better. I say the discovery of nuclear fusion proved Walt Whitman, and the discovery of the atom proved the gap between subject and object that Kant talked about so extensively. But the proof is unnecessary, in my opinion.

Also, my response wasn't really negative. The system was quite interesting. The idea that someone one can make an empirical test of human values was, to my mind, somewhat laughable. But making a correlation of something that even some people consider empirically verifiable (even though it's not, imo) to socionics could certainly be a useful and positive thing to do. We may even find some things that will shed light on either system. Hopefully we will.

i don't like shaloms name so i'm not going to consider his ideas.

lol. That's the correct way to decide which ideas to think about anyway. Feel free to ignore mine, as I have a jewish last name (even though I'm black).

[Creepy-Cyclops]

i don't like shaloms name so i'm not going to consider his ideas.

Joe's better. Anyway does this Schwarz guy make watches too?

[Trevor]

You really think people know their values? You think that people's associations with a single word are so similar that the same word can mean the exact same thing to even two people, much less to a bunch of people who take a survey? You think people are capable of being honest with themselves about what their values are? I'm not. At best, this measures what people think their values are, and even then, there's the enormous problem of the variable meanings of all of those words. And then, it's people from around the world? So they had to translate this value-judgment words? Well that sends it all to hell, if it wasn't there before! Then there's the problem of outliers. For something like, say, the length of a person's thumb, there's only going to be so many outliers, and we have firm categories to put all those outliers in (i.e., a number). That is, there is a reasonably small standard deviation. But for something as vague and personal as "values" (which most people don't even think about for more than fifteen minutes at the end of a sermon on Sunday mornings), there will be far more outliers and even people who don't fit into the categories we give them at all; some values don't even have names yet! The standard deviation on something like values is not only large, it's essentially unknowable, since we can't have a category or a word for every single value, maybe not even every type of value.

I'm not saying it's not a perfectly valuable survey, and may even correlate to some degree with reality, but I am saying that doing statistics on the soul has certain affinities with me trying to determine via existential energy wave analysis and psychological guesswork whether or not there's oil hidden under a given field. You need since, statistics, surveys, analysis for something like that. You need something different to try to figure out the "values" of a group of people.

So you can't see the Self Enhancement-Self Transcendence and Conservation-Openness to change Continuums?

[krieger]

Joe's better. Anyway does this Schwarz guy make watches too?

Yes. He is also responsible for this:

You really think people know their values?

Any reason why they wouldn't, at least up to a certain height?

You think that people's associations with a single word are so similar that the same word can mean the exact same thing to even two people, much less to a bunch of people who take a survey?

The distinction between "Power" and "Benevolence" and "Openness to change" and "Tradition" should not be problematic in this regard, nor should linguistic barriers cause significant obstruction.

I'm not saying it's not a perfectly valuable survey, and may even correlate to some degree with reality, but I am saying that doing statistics on the soul has certain affinities with me trying to determine via existential energy wave analysis and psychological guesswork whether or not there's oil hidden under a given field. You need since, statistics, surveys, analysis for something like that. You need something different to try to figure out the "values" of a group of people.

The statement that the study was "empirically sound" was made relative to the standards of psychology. If the study is as reliable as anything else that gets accepted as humanitarian science, I think I am warranted in calling it that.

[krieger]

What do Gamma NTs think of values like "tradition", "security" and "social order"?

I think the current prime minister of the Netherlands, Jan Peter Balkenende, is an ENTj, and has views that are very much in line with these terms. Is that the general pattern or just an anomaly?

It still seems to me that the only potential for a correlation is one between the quadrants and the socionics quadra, considering the opposite sides are antagonistic.

[silverchris9]

Any reason why they wouldn't, at least up to a certain height?

The distinction between "Power" and "Benevolence" and "Openness to change" and "Tradition" should not be problematic in this regard, nor should linguistic barriers cause significant obstruction.

Disagree on both of these, but nbd. It has been my experience that people, or at least I, do not really understand the values that matter the most to me. I know the values that I am culturally conditioned to like, and what values I am inclined to like (largely for reasons of connotation and association though), but as for what values I'd die for, what values I really care about, what values animate my action... I don't really know. And I feel like I've thought more about this than the average person, although not all that much in absolute terms. Perhaps those broad terms you listed would be useful insofar as they seem to be very distinct from one another, but you have to think about the associations some people have with the word "power". Say you grew up in a very academic home, where you grew up hearing things about "speaking truth to power" and unconscious oppression and power dynamics, etc., etc., you're going to have a very different set of associations with the word power than someone in a more "all my life I had to fight" situation. Or on a smaller level, if you were bullied or a bullier as a child, how strict/authoritarian your parents were, etc. I'm just saying our associations with words make words mean, in the sense that it is significant for a study of values, different things to different people. But, yes, perhaps some moderately useful data can be culled from such a study; I'm just saying that as far as it revealing the truth of human values, what sorts of things we value, in any truly significant way... I'm extraordinarily doubtful.

The statement that the study was "empirically sound" was made relative to the standards of psychology. If the study is as reliable as anything else that gets accepted as humanitarian science, I think I am warranted in calling it that.

Agreed. It was more the statement in isolation that I was rolling my eyes to. But yes, if you make it relative to the soft sciences in general. I guess my position is just that "empirically sound" is DEFINITELY not the first thing I look for in a "theory on human values," which is why I found that statement sort of spurious. But, yes, on consideration, it's not totally valueless, which is why I just rolled my eyes at it instead of saying "WOW THAT IS SUCH USELESS BS" because it isn't useless bs, it's just sort of funny to me to apply an empirical test to something so elusive and slippy and difficult to quantify. Still worth exploring and thinking about regardless.

[FDG]

What do Gamma NTs think of values like "tradition", "security" and "social order"?

I think the current prime minister of the Netherlands, Jan Peter Balkenende, is an ENTj, and has views that are very much in line with these terms. Is that the general pattern or just an anomaly?

It still seems to me that the only potential for a correlation is one between the quadrants and the socionics quadra, considering the opposite sides are antagonistic.

I'm neither against them, nor in favor. Well, actually: I find local traditions to be something that should probably be protected, because they promote cultural enrichment (a kind of human equivalent of biodiversity) - ex. local architecture, local food, local folklore etc.; I dislike more universal traditions such as religions, political parties, etc.
Security - I think this is a basic human need; the set point will be different for each person, however everybody needs at least a bit of security.
Social order - completely against it. Smells of police, fascism, xenophobia, repression. Barring its violent side, I also think that trying to counter the natural dynamics of society is silly - akin to stopping a tsunami.

[Jarno]

I think the current prime minister of the Netherlands, Jan Peter Balkenende, is an ENTj

I've been observing him a lot, and I think he's ESTJ. But you could be right, I'm not 100% sure of my typing. Wouter Bos vice minister is gamma (INTP). 100% sure.

[krieger]

Wouter Bos vice minister is gamma (INTP). 100% sure.

I can respect the opinion, but the fact that you are 100% sure is a little worrying. Bos tends to have a far more natural touch to him than the average INTp does. His charisma, which you point out in a different thread, is indicative of an F type in my opinion. I would be inclined to call him an INFp, but I'd even consider ENFj on account of how he naturally ascended to and comfortably maintains himself in a leadership postion.

I'd suggest Gerrit Zalm, Ernst Hirsch Ballin and Eberhard van der Laan as better examples of INTp in Dutch politics.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

We're all those things.

Power doesn't exist in a vacuum. Social justice is a form of power. Ambition is a form of self-transcendence, self-transcendence is a form of security, conformity is a form of pleasure, pleasure is a form of achievement.

Those are things that people simply value. How can you determine if I value let's say 'pleasure' over 'security?' It's not so easy or simple. I may like to get fucked, but if I want to keep enjoying being fucked, then I need to also do things to keep my body safe enough, to still be fucked- so I need to balance the two. (My urge to be fucked with also my urge to be safe, to do all those other things)

[Jarno]

I'd suggest Gerrit Zalm, Ernst Hirsch Ballin and Eberhard van der Laan as better examples of INTp in Dutch politics.

and what do you think about Donner's type? I'm curious about his type, always found him an awesome guy. He's totally cool under all circumstances.

[krieger]

From very superficial impressions: he looks a rather sensitive, but also calm and composed like you say. INFj seems like a good bet.

[munenori2]

Shalom Schwartz is by far the jewiest name I've ever heard.

Jewish Name Generator