Met an ISTp! (finally)

[Cyrano]

But then a slightly messy drawer may get a lot of teasing. "wow. um, look at all of that stuff. geez, how much stuff do you have in there? etc." It's hard to tell if he's actually criticizing or is just trying to be teasing/silly and get a reaction or something.

Odd that you should mention that. I married an ENFp. Before we married, I noticed that every drawer in her apartment was stuffed with stuff, packed to the point that no drawer could even be opened without pulling a muscle. She also collected decorative baskets, every one also filled to overflowing with flotsome and general clutter.

So, as a condition of marriage, I decreed that she could use any drawer or container for any purpose, but the container could be used only for a single type of thing (I know it sounds crazy, but bear with me). So if she wanted to keep a basket on the shelf, that was fine, and it could even be filled with a collection of anything she wanted, I wouldn't fuss, but it had to have a single purpose.

This has worked out very well. She still gets to have her stuff, but it stays a little organized and she can't keep everything. Anytime she falls off the wagon, I just empty the drawer, and she gets the message.

[Slacker]

This guy sounds a lot like my husband. People thinking he's angry when he isn't, minor tiffs that clear up in 2 minutes but no real fights, and teasing over a messy drawer and not noticing things I should have seen even. Cool!

[Park]

Odd that you should mention that. I married an ENFp. Before we married, I noticed that every drawer in her apartment was stuffed with stuff, packed to the point that no drawer could even be opened without pulling a muscle. She also collected decorative baskets, every one also filled to overflowing with flotsome and general clutter.

So, as a condition of marriage, I decreed that she could use any drawer or container for any purpose, but the container could be used only for a single type of thing (I know it sounds crazy, but bear with me). So if she wanted to keep a basket on the shelf, that was fine, and it could even be filled with a collection of anything she wanted, I wouldn't fuss, but it had to have a single purpose.

This has worked out very well. She still gets to have her stuff, but it stays a little organized and she can't keep everything. Anytime she falls off the wagon, I just empty the drawer, and she gets the message.

[Cyrano]

This guy sounds a lot like my husband. People thinking he's angry when he isn't, minor tiffs that clear up in 2 minutes but no real fights, and teasing over a messy drawer and not noticing things I should have seen even. Cool!

Slacker Dad is my idol.

[jewels]

removed

[Slacker]

My husband is a Te subtype supposedly (I have mixed feelings about how big a deal the whole subtype thing is) and he is very into having a comfy bed and being otherwise comfy. It isn't like there is no longer strong Si.

Though I can't imagine my husband reading a Mars/Venus book, or any self help book for that matter. Maybe during the whole wooing period. But certainly not now.

I find with my husband that when he seems to be absent and not paying attention/caring or whatever, it's because he has some completely unrelated issue he's working on in his head. Like something to do with a car engine, or maybe a work issue. He's just focused on something else.

[jewels]

My husband is a Te subtype supposedly (I have mixed feelings about how big a deal the whole subtype thing is) and he is very into having a comfy bed and being otherwise comfy. It isn't like there is no longer strong Si.

Though I can't imagine my husband reading a Mars/Venus book, or any self help book for that matter. Maybe during the whole wooing period. But certainly not now.

I find with my husband that when he seems to be absent and not paying attention/caring or whatever, it's because he has some completely unrelated issue he's working on in his head. Like something to do with a car engine, or maybe a work issue. He's just focused on something else.

I think he's only reading the book because I asked him to, which means a ton to me (but I really doubt he'd seek that out on his own). But then again, he also likes chick flicks. So maybe he doesn't mind as much?

We've had a lot of miscommunication fights where I get my feelings hurt and he has no idea how to make me feel better. We just had one a few minutes ago...but he seems like he resolves them faster now. This one took about 15 minutes. (I hadn't seen him all week and missed him and he sent out an email for a poker game on the weekend, without giving me a head's up and I thought I'd have no time w/ him and freaked).

I think the girl/guy thing is coming into play more than the type stuff actually. He thinks like such a guy, where as most of my ex's were feelers who understood exactly what was going on.

So I think he can see the book is helping resolve some things

Slackermom, I'm impressed you can not freak out when your husband is not paying attention. I guess I need to learn to chill more. I'm not exactly "chill"

Also interesting. He may very well be a Te subtype then, which would be pretty perfect.

[Suz]

I have experienced more than my share of "embarrasing moments" (seems like on a daily basis ) and have found that ISTP's don't react in the same way that an extrovert would. In fact, they don't seem to react at all, other than calmly pointing out where my car keys are, where my car IS, or which city we happen to be located at the moment. . .

So yeah, I'll take the pragmatic response over a "what a freaking space cadet" anytime.

OMG this explains SO much!

[Suz]

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Aww Jewels!!! Why'd you take that down?

[jewels]

Aww Jewels!!! Why'd you take that down?

sorry, change my mind a lot . What'd I write? Something about we're still together, but sometimes fight, and he's reading the mars/venus book. And miscommunication based on guy/girl stuff more than type I believe.

[UDP]

I've heard things about the mars/venus book

Guys do need to understand how to listen to women more/better. A lot of it is about listening - and really listening. A lot of times listening is motivated by trying to smooth things over or just get back to a good state, or, seen as some chore - something to get through so you don't have to deal with it anymore. That's not related to Fe polr, it's a guy problem.

[Lobo]

I've heard things about the mars/venus book

Guys do need to understand how to listen to women more/better. A lot of it is about listening - and really listening. A lot of times listening is motivated by trying to smooth things over or just get back to a good state, or, seen as some chore - something to get through so you don't have to deal with it anymore. That's not related to Fe polr, it's a guy problem.

I'm not really convinced that there is a significant gender issue at play when it comes to communication between men and women. Maybe it is true of many men and women, but it I wonder how much of "typical guy/girl behavior" is not influenced by the culture, peer pressure, upbringing, etc.

[Lobo]

I've been considering that a downside to the Delta quadra is how the types do not really value intelligence when it comes to bonding with someone, especially the NFs. What might end up happening is partnering with people who they can bond with well, yet there is no real requirement for a certain intelligence level... When I say "intelligence," I'm not talking about a physical limitation, but rather no stimulation to work on things in a theoretical/abstract level. It takes a certain level of curiousity and thought to predict someone's reaction to a certain situation, intelligence to understand how one can affect someone else by your own actions, perhaps to even value sensitivity.

In their idealism, Deltas seem to really underestimate some obstacles that affect interpersonal relationships that are outside of usual morality, such as the intelligence level I'm talking about. For example, it sounds "wrong" to just dump someone who never truly understands you, and for that reason, you probably won't find a Delta who would do that, or even not going out with someone because of that. (I'm finding a hard time expressing my thought on this, so maybe it makes some sense). So essentially, the actions you take towards your partner are not determined by how they make you feel, but rather if they are the right thing to do.

[UDP]

I'm not really convinced that there is a significant gender issue at play when it comes to communication between men and women. Maybe it is true of many men and women, but it I wonder how much of "typical guy/girl behavior" is not influenced by the culture, peer pressure, upbringing, etc.

I actually do believe there are gender related issues. I've seen it in a gay male couple, the same sorts of things - it's because guys tend to be self-centered in how they go about certain things or how they use certain forms of communication... women can also be this way, but, even if they are, it is in a different fashion then males. To be general.

I don't think it is insurmountable, but there is a very clear difference that I've seen, and it spans culture, nationality, orientation, etc.

I've been considering that a downside to the Delta quadra is how the types do not really value intelligence when it comes to bonding with someone, especially the NFs. What might end up happening is partnering with people who they can bond with well, yet there is no real requirement for a certain intelligence level... When I say "intelligence," I'm not talking about a physical limitation, but rather no stimulation to work on things in a theoretical/abstract level. It takes a certain level of curiousity and thought to predict someone's reaction to a certain situation, intelligence to understand how one can affect someone else by your own actions, perhaps to even value sensitivity.

In their idealism, Deltas seem to really underestimate some obstacles that affect interpersonal relationships that are outside of usual morality, such as the intelligence level I'm talking about. For example, it sounds "wrong" to just dump someone who never truly understands you, and for that reason, you probably won't find a Delta who would do that, or even not going out with someone because of that. (I'm finding a hard time expressing my thought on this, so maybe it makes some sense). So essentially, the actions you take towards your partner are not determined by how they make you feel, but rather if they are the right thing to do.

I think delta NFs might be more prone to hanging on to people... you guys are also a lot more likely to complain about things like intelligence levels of the people you end up relating with

I don't feel it's wrong to dump someone who never truly understands me - there are certain people I just know I'm not going to be close to, until they change. I don't see a sense of remorse about it or see it as 'wrong'.

So essentially, the actions you take towards your partner are not determined by how they make you feel, but rather if they are the right thing to do

Yes and no. I think it's common for EIIs in particular to think that way, or to even tell themselves that, but I don't really buy it. Sometimes EIIs seem a lot more 'logical' in their own minds, and to me, the don't seem to realize how much their own feelings and preferences come through in things. I think they sometimes overemphasize something being "the right thing to do" and it's kind of a way of not dealing with or addressing their own feelings.

...I think this is particularly the case when it would be a lot more convenient to choose the path that is seemingly catering to goodness or positive relations, rather than something more 'volatile', such as actually telling someone you don't want to hang around them because they are "unintelligent", or a hassle, or a drain. I think it is SIGNIFICANTLY easier for an EII to focus on morality and goodness as opposed to the 'dirty work' of telling someone to fuck off when they really ought to be told so.

And whats more, I find a lot of times that EII's inability to be assertive or forthright - being able to actually defend their own interests - often encourages the very behavior that they dislike in others, because their complacency and silent hope in things getting better doesn't actually do anything towards improving the situation.


Those are 'harsh words', but I've seen this happen tons with EIIs. The healthier the EII, the more able they are to deal with things like this on their own. Don't get me wrong, I love being the enforcer and protecting EIIs from users and abusers as much as the next LSE, but I think they really don't get how they set themselves up for big trouble and disappointment, at times.

[UDP]

To stay perhaps more on point. . .

I've been considering that a downside to the Delta quadra is how the types do not really value intelligence when it comes to bonding with someone, especially the NFs. What might end up happening is partnering with people who they can bond with well, yet there is no real requirement for a certain intelligence level... When I say "intelligence," I'm not talking about a physical limitation, but rather no stimulation to work on things in a theoretical/abstract level. It takes a certain level of curiousity and thought to predict someone's reaction to a certain situation, intelligence to understand how one can affect someone else by your own actions, perhaps to even value sensitivity.

I think that to some extend this is not such a delta thing, but it is a relational experience thing. After you've had enough disappointments you start to realize what kind of people you need and what kind of awareness you need in other people.

Honestly, I always prized awareness in others, from when I first started thinking about relationships early on in life. And I think it is related to what you're talking about, although - as I sort of went into in my last post - I especially think about awareness in regard to "our relationship". I really don't bother with someone who I don't think is capable of being properly aware of certain things in general, and especially about being aware of certain things in regard to how she and I would get along.

Perhaps, however, the NFs are seemingly more forgiving of this in others, or, because they are really good at it themselves, think they can tolerate such a lacking in others - I've seen something like that before... but, I don't think it works out that way.

I've seen just as much delta NFs say something like "You know, I got to a point where I realized that I don't want to entertain [a boring or unstimulating or 'unintelligent' (as Lobo said)] kind of conversation with him anymore". It kind of strikes me as their grace period wearing off on someone, or it setting in that this person is just not rewarding to them in a practical manner -- and when i say practical manner, I mean someone who is, in reality, not engaging them or stimulating them, not giving them a rewarding relationship.

In their idealism, Deltas seem to really underestimate some obstacles that affect interpersonal relationships that are outside of usual morality, such as the intelligence level I'm talking about. For example, it sounds "wrong" to just dump someone who never truly understands you, and for that reason, you probably won't find a Delta who would do that, or even not going out with someone because of that. (I'm finding a hard time expressing my thought on this, so maybe it makes some sense). So essentially, the actions you take towards your partner are not determined by how they make you feel, but rather if they are the right thing to do.

Now, to some extent, I do do this myself. There are certain times where I just expect people to act like my dual, to have that kind of inclination in and of themselves. There are times where I've done things that really were just the 'right thing to do', and sometimes at a personal (and even pragmatic) damage to myself. But I've learned to be cautious about falling into situations like that, because I know that certain people just don't respect it. Sometimes, if people see that you're going to do 'the right thing' you'll just be taken advantage of.

"Don't caste your pearls before a swine"

I think the NFs have a harder time identifying who the swine are because they do hope for people to get better at things. Although, like everything else, the healthier someone is, the more relational/people experience they have, the easier all of this gets, IMO. And having a dual or complimentary club type to help you out is really nice.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I've been considering that a downside to the Delta quadra is how the types do not really value intelligence when it comes to bonding with someone, especially the NFs. What might end up happening is partnering with people who they can bond with well, yet there is no real requirement for a certain intelligence level... When I say "intelligence," I'm not talking about a physical limitation, but rather no stimulation to work on things in a theoretical/abstract level. It takes a certain level of curiousity and thought to predict someone's reaction to a certain situation, intelligence to understand how one can affect someone else by your own actions, perhaps to even value sensitivity.

In their idealism, Deltas seem to really underestimate some obstacles that affect interpersonal relationships that are outside of usual morality, such as the intelligence level I'm talking about. For example, it sounds "wrong" to just dump someone who never truly understands you, and for that reason, you probably won't find a Delta who would do that, or even not going out with someone because of that. (I'm finding a hard time expressing my thought on this, so maybe it makes some sense). So essentially, the actions you take towards your partner are not determined by how they make you feel, but rather if they are the right thing to do.

Could you give me an example? (I think I know what you mean, but i'm not entirely sure).

My own thoughts are that the Delta NF's bond with someone and even if it's not working out, the overall bond can overide that.

For myself, i've dated people where we have had a stumbling block in understanding each other. My thoughts have been that if we keep working at it we'll get there, i'm never quite sure when i've tried too much or too little, so it can result in me seeing someone too long or breaking up with someone too quickly.

I also don't know if this is related to my type or a general thing for everyone.

I've also found that when someone really does get me, that I can become complacent with that feeling and somehow think i've "cracked" relationships, but it can still end for other reasons, and then next time round to find i'm back to square 1 with a person never overcoming the "not understanding" each other.

I also think that when i've got someone and they've got me on an understanding level, that it can lead to lazyness and complacency.

[Marie84]

I don't feel it's wrong to dump someone who never truly understands me - there are certain people I just know I'm not going to be close to, until they change. I don't see a sense of remorse about it or see it as 'wrong'.

I agree with you, and I think it's something that comes with maturity for NF's since they tend to be more idealistic in relationships, as in what could be rather than what is, hence why it's harder to let go.
In the end, I don't think it helpful, to anyone, to base a relationship on wishful thinking, so if you can't give them what they want and/or vice versa, than there's no purpose with dragging the relationships on.

In a way, I think it's rather selfish to do that since I truly believe that people have a right to be respected and loved for who they are, and if you can't do that with a sincere heart than you're not being fair to the other person. It's kinder to let them go and let them have a chance to have that real connection with another person, instead of holding them in a meaningless relationship

[Lobo]

To stay perhaps more on point. . .

Thank you.

Perhaps, however, the NFs are seemingly more forgiving of this in others, or, because they are really good at it themselves, think they can tolerate such a lacking in others - I've seen something like that before... but, I don't think it works out that way.

I've seen just as much delta NFs say something like "You know, I got to a point where I realized that I don't want to entertain [a boring or unstimulating or 'unintelligent' (as Lobo said)] kind of conversation with him anymore". It kind of strikes me as their grace period wearing off on someone, or it setting in that this person is just not rewarding to them in a practical manner -- and when i say practical manner, I mean someone who is, in reality, not engaging them or stimulating them, not giving them a rewarding relationship.

...

I think the NFs have a harder time identifying who the swine are because they do hope for people to get better at things. Although, like everything else, the healthier someone is, the more relational/people experience they have, the easier all of this gets, IMO. And having a dual or complimentary club type to help you out is really nice.

Yeah, it's a problem of identifying never-changing "swine" .

Could you give me an example? (I think I know what you mean, but i'm not entirely sure).

For an example, imagine relating with someone who constantly does insensitive things, and is "morally guarded" by ignorance. In the sense that he/she doesn't know any better. It's the difference between "screw that" and "maybe it will change."

My own thoughts are that the Delta NF's bond with someone and even if it's not working out, the overall bond can overide that.

For myself, i've dated people where we have had a stumbling block in understanding each other. My thoughts have been that if we keep working at it we'll get there, i'm never quite sure when i've tried too much or too little, so it can result in me seeing someone too long or breaking up with someone too quickly.

I also don't know if this is related to my type or a general thing for everyone.

I've also found that when someone really does get me, that I can become complacent with that feeling and somehow think i've "cracked" relationships, but it can still end for other reasons, and then next time round to find i'm back to square 1 with a person never overcoming the "not understanding" each other.

I also think that when i've got someone and they've got me on an understanding level, that it can lead to lazyness and complacency.

That's something I noticed in one particular SLI.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

For an example, imagine relating with someone who constantly does insensitive things, and is "morally guarded" by ignorance. In the sense that he/she doesn't know any better. It's the difference between "screw that" and "maybe it will change."

Maybe this is sort of smaller scale.

I work with an SLE and an IEE. We have a "coffee club" where we take turns buying jar of coffee. SLE always tries to dodge out of it. Anyway it was his turn and he kept making up excuses, which although minor, is pretty insensitive as he's been drinking other peoples coffee (not just the money, but the effort to go and buy it and bring it in). The IEE got rather cross with him, making some digs at his 'moral insensitivity' on the matter. I think he's rather clueless about it.

So the IEE brought in some coffee herself next day, and was saying things like, "Cyclops you can have as much of the coffee as you want", to SLE - "you're not getting any".

Eventually the IEE gave in and let him have the coffee.

It's a minor thing as an example of MANY minor things which occur, which add up. So in one sense the IEE thinks he's a douchebag, and in the other hand she keeps giving him little chances here and there, ... maybe he'll change.

He's ignorant about the little things he does. For myself, i'm pretty sure he'll never change, as his insensitivity is pretty much part of his PoLR, so I would say best to keep interactions with a formal tone, keep it short, polite and business like.

His obliviousness to the thoughts and internal feelings/stances of others can be summed up reasonably well with this:

The individual has difficulty evaluating interpersonal relationships between himself and others, and between other individuals, beyond those based on achieving mutual goals, including mutual amusement. Little importance is given on evaluating the inner feelings or emotional state of other individuals, which are seen as irrelevant or assumed to be non-existent, if not reflected on clear external actions and emotional expressions. Therefore the individual dismisses the notion of others looking for those factors in himself. Statements by other persons reflecting their inner feelings are not really registered by the individual if not accompanied by external emotional expression or actions. Suggestions that the individual may have acted unethically in the eyes of another person who, however, has not expressed disapproval obviously or immediately, are met with bafflement by the individual.

All of it, but from watching him, and even the little coffee escapade, esp the bolded parts.

[jewels]

wow, that SLE sounds like a jerk. The ones I know/have known, seem pretty sensitive to "pulling their own weight." I can't imagine them just ignoring their turn to do something like that. In fact, even the SLEs I've disliked/haven't gotten along with, usually go overboard on physical things like that. Like a roommate I despised (who happened to be a troubled SLE) would still buy bulk paper towels, etc.

I'm finding there are big male/female differences in communication. I'd bet a lot of it is due to how you're raised also, but it's remarkable, thinks like she vents about her day to get empathy. He hears she has a problem that needs to be solved. Disaster ensues! And so on.

So far it's been helping I think.