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Thread: Psychopaths and Socionics

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Default Psychopaths and Socionics

    Psychopathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Since, most problems I've had in life have been caused by ruthless SLEs, I've read some stuff on psychopaths and I am starting to think about the link between Psychopathy and Socionics, provided it exists.

    In my opinion, it is clear that, in spite of I like some SLEs and only some of them are psychopaths, most psychopaths are SLEs.

    subtype are "loud" when harrassing others and whereas subtype are more "subtle", but their leading plus their polr make some unhealthy SLEs pyschopaths.

    Feedback?
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    no.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Back it up with scientific proof, or stop spreading your fearbased stereotype and apologize for starting another "Betas are the sickest bastards around"-thread. I'm amazed at the bs I read on these pages. FFS! PROOF or GTFO!

    Just break down the environment and you'll get the proofs

    Most bastards are betas, but not all betas are bastards. In fact, most of my relatives are betas and I adore them

    I am not apologizing: unhealthy SLEs are at fault, not me
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Just break down the environment and you'll get the proofs

    Most bastards are betas, but not all betas are bastards. In fact, most of my relatives are betas and I adore them

    I am not apologizing: unhealthy SLEs are at fault, not me
    Haha, that's like claiming - "There are goblins in the woods, just look around you, they are EVERYWHERE!!111!".
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Most bastards are betas
    but this is simply false. there is no proof of this. just because you happen to know some does not make it universally true.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I disagree that most bastards are Beta, as I think it may well be a matter of perception. But I DO think many of those psychopathical characteristics can be ascribe to functions, although they are generally applicable to only unhealthy individuals, and a person of any type could probably be ascribed any of those characteristics.

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    You don't know what SLEs really are.

    Consider this case: In Spain, a man was beating his wife. Some pedestrian defended the woman and then walked away.

    Then the man attacked him when the pedestrian wasn't aware, as a coward, and the pedestrian entered into a comatose state.

    The wife went to TV and claimed she wasn't going to say "thanks" to the pedestrian and he should "fuck off". She also said that she loved her husband.

    A year later, the pedestrian is severely handicapped.

    This is just an example.

    The man (called Antonio Puerta), ESTp





    The woman (called Violeta Santander), INFp



    The pedestrian (called Jesús Neira), INTj



    Last edited by 1981slater; 07-30-2009 at 07:46 PM.
    ILE "Searcher"
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    I will agree tentatively with Slater that most characteristics ascribed to sociopaths would best be described in Socionics terms as an emphasis on Se and weak ethics in general; however I don't think this implies any correlation with Se types, or even Se valuing types, being more likely to be psychopaths, nor have I observed any such tendency.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I have suffered physical agression by SLEs

    I have suffered non-physical agression, harassment by cold, ruthless SLE bosses
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    most psychopaths are SLEs.
    I doubt this, though they might come in second place.

    I think most psychopaths are SLI:

    I know an SLI woman at my former workplace who said she had been diagnosed anti social.

    An SLI-te friend of mine is likely a psychopath, been in jail for stabbing, stole his brother car to check the max speed while not having a license, gambling addict, drugs addict, thrill seeker, has had numerous bar fights etc.

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    Fantastic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    I have suffered physical agression by SLEs

    I have suffered non-physical agression, harassment by cold, ruthless SLE bosses
    Ok. I have suffered belittlement and physical aggression from LSEs. What's your point?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Then it looks like valuers believe most psychopaths are SLIs, whereas most valuers believe psychopaths are SLEs.
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Ok. I have suffered belittlement and physical aggression from LSEs. What's your point?
    If they really are LSEs, they make me feel disappointed
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    If they really are LSEs, they make me feel disappointed
    disappointed? lol!
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    If they really are LSEs, they make me feel disappointed
    The SLEs don't?

    And your statement about Se/Si valuers is fallacious; I've seen no real prominent pattern, personally.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    I think most psychopaths are SLI:
    I can see that. Or not.

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    Well, Gilly. IMO, most jerks are SLEs. So a few unhealthy LSEs don't count.

    In other words, the goal in life of SLEs is to harm people, that is what they have made for
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Yeah, I think SLE's and SLI's can both be psychopaths. The SLE, if unhealthy I suppose, just wants to attack people to expand their own importance. The SLI just wants to do what they want.

    Maybe a case of one wants to push new space and assert, the other wants to resist and therefore contain their space

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Yeah, I think SLE's and SLI's can both be psychopaths. The SLE, if unhealthy I suppose, just wants to attack people to expand their own importance. The SLI just wants to do what they want.

    Maybe a case of one wants to push new space and assert, the other wants to resist and therefore contain their space
    In other words, the SLE can be bought off, whereas the SLI can't.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    In other words, the SLE can be bought off, whereas the SLI can't.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    @ Slater: No.

    PCL-R:
    (PCL-R, the psycho-diagnostic tool most commonly used to assess psychopathy)

    Factor1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
    • Glibness/superficial charm
    • Grandiose sense of self-worth
    • Pathological lying
    • Conning/manipulative
    • Lack of remorse or guilt
    • Shallow affect
    • Callous/lack of empathy
    • Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

    Factor2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle"
    • Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
    • Parasitic lifestyle
    • Poor behavioral control
    • Promiscuous sexual behavior
    • Lack of realistic, long-term goals
    • Impulsivity
    • Irresponsibility
    • Juvenile delinquency
    • Early behavior problems
    • Revocation of conditional release

    Traits not correlated with either factor
    • Many short-term marital relationships
    • Criminal versatility



    And absolutely none of that has any correlation whatsoever to Se/Ti.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Wow, I was a psychopath a little over a year ago
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    And absolutely none of that has any correlation whatsoever to Se/Ti.
    oke, but to which type(s) does it correlate then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    oke, but to which type(s) does it correlate then?
    None. That was my point. It has nothing to do with Socionics.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I hope this whole thread is a stupid joke, but even if it is, you people are now contributing to the stereotyping that made it so hard for me to find my type. You know NOTHING about Se, you understand NOTHING of the type you claim to understand. Yet you dare interpreting Se-ego's way of behaving. It's ridiculous. And as long as you keep projecting your fears and evils, you only continue proving that there's little hope for Socionics, and that it - at it's best - will just become another tool for proving one type's superiority, the same way racism and all other forms of discrimination is used. Fools.
    Stereotypes exist for a reason, they didn't come out of thin air.

    Theres a reason the beta quadra has the labels it has, and every other quadra for that matter. Not saying its the complete truth, but to not even acknowledge a grain of it is assinine.

    You also didnt contribute a logical argument against what he was saying, and honestly I can't say that I disagree very much with the OP. As a generality, IME, this seems to be true.



    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    @ Slater: No.

    PCL-R:
    (PCL-R, the psycho-diagnostic tool most commonly used to assess psychopathy)

    Factor1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
    • Glibness/superficial charm
    • Grandiose sense of self-worth
    • Pathological lying
    • Conning/manipulative
    • Lack of remorse or guilt
    • Shallow affect
    • Callous/lack of empathy
    • Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

    Factor2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle"
    • Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
    • Parasitic lifestyle
    • Poor behavioral control
    • Promiscuous sexual behavior
    • Lack of realistic, long-term goals
    • Impulsivity
    • Irresponsibility
    • Juvenile delinquency
    • Early behavior problems
    • Revocation of conditional release

    Traits not correlated with either factor
    • Many short-term marital relationships
    • Criminal versatility



    And absolutely none of that has any correlation whatsoever to Se/Ti.
    Yes it does.

    What the hell are you talking about?
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Well, if I had to put labels on the traits:

    Quote Originally Posted by Allie

    • Glibness/superficial charm - Fe
    • Grandiose sense of self-worth - Se
    • Pathological lying - ?
    • Conning/manipulative - Fe
    • Lack of remorse or guilt - Weak ethics
    • Shallow affect - Weak Fe
    • Callous/lack of empathy - ?
    • Failure to accept responsibility for own actions - ?


    • Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom - Extrovert
    • Parasitic lifestyle - Ne?
    • Poor behavioral control - Weak sensing
    • Promiscuous sexual behavior - Strong sensing?
    • Lack of realistic, long-term goals - Weak Ni
    • Impulsivity - Irrational
    • Irresponsibility - ?
    • Juvenile delinquency - ?
    • Early behavior problems - ?
    • Revocation of conditional release - ?

    The overall trend is closest to ESE, I think.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    Factor1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
    • Glibness/superficial charm - uh .. ILE
    • Grandiose sense of self-worth - ILE
    • Pathological lying - Fi PoLR
    • Conning/manipulative - Fi PoLR
    • Lack of remorse or guilt - Fi PoLR
    • Shallow affect - Beta
    • Callous/lack of empathy - Fi PoLR
    • Failure to accept responsibility for own actions - infantile

    Factor2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle"
    • Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom - Ne
    • Parasitic lifestyle - infantile
    • Poor behavioral control - intuitive
    • Promiscuous sexual behavior - Si-seeking
    • Lack of realistic, long-term goals - Si
    • Impulsivity - Ep
    • Irresponsibility - Alpha
    • Juvenile delinquency - Alpha
    • Early behavior problems - Gamma
    • Revocation of conditional release - Si

    Traits not correlated with either factor
    • Many short-term marital relationships - Ne
    • Criminal versatility - Ne
    ILE ftw

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    It has nothing to do with Socionics.
    Agreed.

    I have two distinct stereotypes of the psychopath, though:

    1. The scheming, conniving female "social": ESFj, ENFp, ENFj.
    2. The sadistic semi-solitary male brute: ISTp, INTp, ESTp.

    The rest of the crew I guess would fall between those two extremes.
    Greetings, ragnar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Well, if I had to put labels on the [SIZE=2]traits:



    The overall trend is closest to ESE, I think.
    I just noticed Merry... which does correlate to SLE. In my opinion, this is a case of taking something that sort of halfway works in psychiatry, combining it with something that sort of halfway works in Socionics, and coming up with something only occasionally correct. Hence... I rather dislike generalities, useful as they may be. When used in reasoning, their quality just keeps going down until they become... at worst, evil stereotypes; at best, absolutely right (hey, you can be lucky).

    Ah well... that's rather hypocritical, because the only part of Socionics that isn't generalities is the basic structure of Model A (which in traditional Alpha NT style says nothing about reality by itself).



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    Let's be smart for 2 seconds. I mean really. Let's focus in and be specific.

    Empathy is a nice trait to have. People tend to respect empathetic people, hold them up in a sort of reverence. But then again, empathy just means you can relate to what somebody is going through so much that you kinda leave them alone and don't nag them. You constantly love and support them, because your emotions are so intertwined with theirs. Right? I have huge empathy for people like me. I don't have much empathy for people whose life circumstances are so different that we can't find anything to relate to. It is impossible to have real empathy in those situations. The only reason technically why we don't fight and rip each other's throats out is because we'd be punished by law if we did so, we could get away with it but lazily ignoring each other seems to be the better way.

    But if you truly are different, and you're not around anybody you CAN relate to, you're not going to have much empathy for them, you're either gonna take special satisfaction in bossing them around, and being narcissistic with them. Look at Esther Hicks. She promotes individualism in such an extreme way where she like wants to be 'on the top' and have all these experiences that she know makes the mob follow her around easier. In order to have real empathy with somebody, you actually have to allow yourself to be vulnerable enough to literally go through what they went through. (and not only that but you REALLY have to see it through their own eyes and come to the conclusions that they are having) Who in life do you know actually has the awesomeness to do this , instead of idealizing it and writing about it? Not many people because we all get fixed into our patterns.

    It seems like as long as you have at least ONE empathetic connection with another human, you're gravy. If you don't have that (at least one person you can truly trust and confide in and share pain over ice cream with non-judgement like, ya know), that's what society labels you and punishes you for your own narcissism That's the sort of self-image and illusory perceptions that's self-sabotaging to yourself and others. They simply want you to feel somebody else's pain. It's good for you. But you're not going to do that unless the other person shows that they care too, that you can relate to each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    It has nothing to do with Socionics.
    It's a bunch of traits. It has nothing to do with anything, unless you force it into a model.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    None. That was my point. It has nothing to do with Socionics.
    It's well known that certain personality disorders are linked to certain types.

    I think you just know shit about the subject.

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    Spot the psycho:

    1) Alpha NTs



    2) Beta STs



    3) Gamma NT



    4) Delta ST

    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

  35. #35
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    But if you truly are different, and you're not around anybody you CAN relate to, you're not going to have much empathy for them, you're either gonna take special satisfaction in bossing them around, and being narcissistic with them.
    Incorrect. I am well and truly an outsider, but being able to connect with someone on a deep level has been a wonderful experience.

    Love for the lonely is like a banquet for the starving, though, I guess.

  36. #36
    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Spot the psycho






    Definitely this guy.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Spot the psycho:

    1) Alpha NTs

    I KNOW IT'S THE GUY WITHOUT THE GLASSES!
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

  38. #38
    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
    I KNOW IT'S THE GUY WITHOUT THE GLASSES!
    You'll also notice, he's not wearing a pocket protector either. And he has words on his T-Shirt! I don't know if he's psycho, but he's like the cool guy!!
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Definitely this guy.
    I agree with this. I personally think most psychopaths are LIE (they have brutalized me the most). It's also important to remember that "glib and superficial charm" is simply the manifestation of Fe role.

    I think clarity has now been established. Here's a list, where 1=most psychopathic and 2=second most psychopathic, etc.

    1. LIE
    2. SLI
    3. LSE
    4. ILI
    5. LSI
    6. LII
    7. SLE
    8. ILE
    9. ESE
    10. EIE
    11. SEI
    12. IEI
    13. ESI
    14. SEE
    15. EII
    16. IEE

    (some types have brutalized me more than others)

    I hope that guy from The Simpsons really is LIE, otherwise my entire argument goes to shit.

  40. #40
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I agree with this. I personally think most psychopaths are LIE (they have brutalized me the most). It's also important to remember that "glib and superficial charm" is simply the manifestation of Fe role.

    I think clarity has now been established. Here's a list, where 1=most psychopathic and 2=second most psychopathic, etc.

    1. LIE
    2. SLI
    3. LSE
    4. ILI
    5. LSI
    6. LII
    7. SLE
    8. ILE
    9. ESE
    10. EIE
    11. SEI
    12. IEI
    13. ESI
    14. SEE
    15. EII
    16. IEE

    (some types have brutalized me more than others)

    I hope that guy from The Simpsons really is LIE, otherwise my entire argument goes to shit.
    lmao
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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