tell me about them: their similarities/differences, ways to tell them apart, typical behaviors, your experiences with them, how an E4 could go about deciding which one they are, links to good descriptions, anything like that
Enneagram Type: 4w3 vs 4w5 wing differences
tell me about them: their similarities/differences, ways to tell them apart, typical behaviors, your experiences with them, how an E4 could go about deciding which one they are, links to good descriptions, anything like that
I am fairly read up on the enneagram. The enneagram basically dictates your behavior. Socionics is the tool, enneagram is how the tool is used. It's separate. So don't think that the two are linked.
This is a great site for the enneagram. The descriptions are to the point and very good. Here is the type 4 description to start off with- http://www.9types.com/descr/4/
From there at the top you'll see that you can access other type's profiles. Also a little bit below that you will see something called "Diagrams", be sure to check those out too, those basically say what "loops" the said enneagram type can get in.
As a 4w3 or 4w5, you will have mostly type 4 traits but also relate to some type 3 or 5 traits. They don't have to be all of the 5 or 3 traits, but just some. It's also possible to have balanced wings, but that doesn't happen too often and you usually lean toward one wing or the other.
Good luck, ask me anything in a PM you want to about enneagram if you're confused. Cheers.
EDIT: I also noticed you use AIM, so feel free to message me over that if you're confused as well.
SEE-Fi 9w8 sx/sp
hmm well 4w5's like Starfall come across to me as sorta enigmatic. Like Bjork too. They are kinda artsy, withdrawn, and imo timid. Like supposedly its a very strange minded type. lol i think of the band Tool for some reason.
4w3's seem more outwards. More there to make a stand and impress upon people. Like I'm different so there and everyone can suck it! (jk)
yeah im no help lol
The end is nigh
4w3s are much more outwardly and "other" directed in the way they carry themselves, while 4w5s go inward.
Think of it this way, there's the core 4 fixation of envy and ruing over shame from abandonment. Then the wing is what they "do" with that fixation. So the 4w3 will take that envy and shame and create thie external persona that seeks validation of the image.
Just imagine blending 4 and 3 energies, vs 4 and 5 energies.
Enneagram 3s are "other directed" and seek to conform to an ideal image that others have deemed worthy and aggressively pursue living out this image. They have what Claudio Naranjo calls, a "marketing orientation" - picture those salesmen that try to promote hard enough at you so that you'll buy what they have. This is what the enneagram 3 does in the way it seeks to "sell" it's image to people, thus the "assertive" disposition.
So 4w3s are 4s that have the influence of what I just described with the 3 and the focus on outward presentation and other-directed images.
With 4w5s, there's the influence of the withdrawn 5 tendency to detach and go inward, to observe things, and be hesitant to actively engage.
Whether this method is right or wrong (most likely a gradient in between but at least 25% closer to right) I've always seen 4w5 as being related to INFp-Ni subtype - and likewise 4w3 to INFp-Fe subtypeOriginally Posted by glamourama
tell me about them: their similarities/differences, ways to tell them apart, typical behaviors, your experiences with them, how an E4 could go about deciding which one they are, links to good descriptions, anything like that
INFp-Ni
Both 4s are elitist and proud of being such because they have special insight into people and things that the "common man" doesn't...and so aren't disgustingly ordinary like they are.
4w3 is called the "aristocrat" by riso and hudson and due to the w3 are better at masking their inferiority complex.
4w5 is more like a "stigmata 4"...more of a mythologizing of their personal tragedy.
no, you idiot: 4w3s are basically like 5w6 sp/sx; the problem solver.
4w5s, by contrast, are basically like 5w6 sp/sx.
ok, i'm pretty sure i'm a 4w3, but lately i've been really brushing up on my 5 wing i think... reading all sorts of shit, trying to learn more about my history and becoming self-educated and what-not. i've considered that maybe i just don't have a dominant wing... or perhaps i'm just developing.
but anyway, the differences i have seen... are 1) that, yes, in comparison to my 4w5 wing pal, i am much more outwardly focused... but only in the sense that i care more what people think of me, and care a lot more about the impressions i make on people when interacting with them. also, 2) i think i'm a lot more idealistic... he seems to really take things the way they are... which i can't really stand lol. i even thought he might be 5w4, but i think that he isn't because even though he takes somewhat of a cynical and logical perspective on life, he still is... quite a dreamer like myself. in this i mean, that even though we come to some sort of "philosophical" conclusions about life, and even though we've been a very depressive, analytical, detached road in our lives... (a phase so to speak)... we still choose to believe in things that dont logically make sense. we're still both passionately inclined, and like to imagine the wondrous things in life are truly real... all the time... and that they can't be taken apart or broken down in to meaningless bits of reason. so in this way, i'm sure we're both 4s. but... i have much more trouble accepting the "truths" that he does.
For example, (not to bring up another topic...but...) he thinks the idea of believing in a god is extremely extremely foolish, and delusional, and wrong... degrading to yourself i suppose. i have my own views on that.. (which i won't get into here..) and am not so.. "black or white" on the issue. i choose to be more open-minded in that area. i also enjoy studying things that are not really proven... the unreal...the strange, the fantastical... and instead of looking at them cynically and objectively and logically... i embrace them with high hopes. these things i talk of are basically anything metaphysical or fantastical.
he sort of... laughs at these things. he distracts him self with video games, and puzzle games...while i love puzzle games and mind games as well, i don't have nearly as much patience for them. i'd much rather call an old friend up, or get to know a guy and see if he's flirt-worthy. i'd much rather go out and party or something... or just go have fun.
so, overall... he's basically more practical and sort of...subjective than i. he just accepts ideas such as human beings just in truth being cold hard robotic stones if you "think hard enough about it"... but decides to set this aside in his mind and just... live. me... well... i consider this view, but i still chase high hopes of other philosophical truths... putting pieces to gether... possibly even deluding myself in the process of putting the pieces together of how the world works, and how people think and act and really truly are... i put the pieces together in an idealistic way that makes it so that the way people want things to be... can be rationalized so that it really is the way things are.
my 4w5 pal just takes the facts, takes the logic, takes what he sees as it is, and doesn't stress himself out trying to make the ideals be true in his mind.
i think in a way that is sort of like a 3... because a 3 would be more inclined to make things seem the way they *want* them to be... more idealistically...more emotionally. while a 5 sort of is like the "scientist". of course this isn't exactly what they are, but to me-- it's a good symbol.
i hope that made some sense. just sort of went on and on, trying to clarify what i mean.
"If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann
I think 4w3s are more...I don't want to say volatile because we the connotation, but that's it. They're less stable, more willing to take risks. It's like they have the 4s need for individuality and self-identity, but the three wing gives them a bite; like they have something to prove to the world about themselves.
A 4w5 would be more content doing their own thing, whatever.
<3 4w3. But both the 4w3s I got this impression from were sx, so ymmv
4-5 wing?
I just took an enneagram test and it said I'm most likely a 4-5 wing...in socionics, I'm apparently an fe-iei. Is this strange? What I mean is, it seems to me that, at a glance, 4-3 is probably closer to an fe-iei...am I wrong to think this? Do the two (socionics and enneagram) just measure totally different things? Am I just a weirdo? Thanks in advance guys.
4 is very common for IEI, and you, specifically, absolutely must have 5 somewhere as far as I'm concerned
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
haha
I actually took another more in depth test and it said I had "balanced wings"...whatever that means...I thought you had to have wings?! eh...all this stuff is confusing
Wings aren't mandatory. You are your type and the wings are just ways of describing how your type may be affected by its neighbours. If you have balanced wings then the neighbours have equal affect, whatever its strength.
Reason is a whore.
Average 4w5’s are devoted to cultivation of a personal worldview, often by philosophical or artistic means. They are more likely than the 4w3’s to be reclusive and out-of-touch with the greater social world, and to compensate they adopt unconventional/eccentric ways of life. They can be purposefully obscure and enigmatic in their expressions, then have an elitist and contemptuous view of those who failed to understand them. They tend to withdraw for prolonged periods under stress which can leave them further isolated. As a result, they are prone to hallucinatory states and total alienation...............Fe-iei... Loves to be in the centre of attention and dramatize proceedings, possesses a sense of humour. They easily manipulate by intonation and voice; can work successfully as a journalist --- They easily succeed in enticing the person they talk to. Outwardly they can appear extravagant; frequently takes a bohemian and bright form....this all seems so contradictory!
It isnt. There are many Fe- IEIs out there, there used to be some more on this forum but they disappeared.
Let me ask you this: If the descriptions are contradictory then why do you idenify with both of them?
"It isnt. There are many Fe- IEIs out there, there used to be some more on this forum but they disappeared. " were any of them 4w5? ... and to your second question...solid point. definitely made me think
Yea thats what I meant, sorry, they were 4W5 and Fe-IEI.
4w3 and 4w5s
Any observed differences between 4w3s and 4w5s? Detailed, if possible
C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479
The 3-wing adds a busier element to the 4's emotionalism and agenda of uniqueness. They are more likely than the 4w5 to go out there to get the approval for their fantasies. Very dramatic, very much attracted by all things elitist that promise recognition for their manner of being different. Artist archetype.
The 5-wing creates a double-reclusive person. 4 and 5 withdraw to distinguish themselves and observe society from an outside standpoint. 4w5 is the ultimate "individualist" with a knack of in-depth knowledge. Less dramatic but more on the depressed/ uber dreamy side esp when unhealthy. THE person to live in their head.
4w3 is more competitive and envious
not elitist, elitist is soc related
4w5 is more like.. wilting
is not more depressed/dreamy than 4w3
Competitive and envious yes, elitism is the 4's general trap and that doesn't extend to instincts.
4w5 has more cerebral detachment than the 4w3 and is removed from the immediate, hence double withdrawal. The 3-wing gives more "can-do" attitude which resolves the dilemma of being stuck in one's imagination (4) and head (5), lending more identity focus instead. Depression means past focus (it's opposite to anxiety which is future focus, see E6/E7) --> melancholy and analytical combination of 4w5 magnifies this.
I don't think 3-wing automatically makes you have a "can-do" attitude, it depends on tritype. I know 4w3s who have 9 fix and they can be like helpess little infants. In certain cases I can be like that myself.
Btw, look at Marilyn Manson, a 4w5 with a can-do attitude.
Explain how you mean that 4s are elitists.
Yes, since the 3-wing is more prone to desintegrate. But the core drive of 3 is still achieving - a wing's purpose is to help, in that case the 4. So it will happen in one health level way or another.
Read the second table. The elite is comprised of someone/people who stand(s) out and who is/are different from the rest, somewhat above, remote from the mainstream. If that's not what E4 is about!
Well as an 4w5... I'm more interested in more "intellectual" topics like science, technology and politics than the average 4, but not like a 5 that have more depth and are obsessed with acquiring any knowledge. Just the things that would interest me. My second type would be a 5.
I'm not really good at "art" or creative stuff, but maybe that's just my lack of talent. But it doesn't really bother me if I'm not good at those things. I'd rather just think about things intellectually. But I do like art.
Not competitive at all, don't care much for success or spotlight.
Although I'm a very emotional person, I'm not really emotional around people like the average 4, but that could also be because I'm a social subtype.
4w3 - Seeking Identity and Image
- LifeExplore
Fours with a 3 wing can sometimes seem like Sevens. May be outgoing, have a sense of humor and style. Prize being both creative and effective in the world. Both intuitive and ambitious; may have good imaginations, often talented. Some are colorful, fancy dressers, make a distinct impression. Self-knowledge combines well with social and organizational skills. When more entranced, often have a public/private split. Could conceal feelings in public then go home to loneliness. Or they could enjoy their work and be dissatisfied in love. Tendency towards melodrama and flamboyance; true feelings can often be hidden. Competitive, sneaky, aware of how they look. Some have bad taste. May be fickle in love, drawn to romantic images that they have projected onto others. Could have a dull spouse, then fantasize about glamorous strangers. Achievements can be tainted by jealousy, revenge, or a desire to prove the crowd wrong.
4w5 - Seeking Identity and Knowledge
- LifeExplore
Healthy side of this wing brings a withdrawn, complex creativity. May be somewhat intellectual but have exceptional depth of feeling and insight. Very much their own person; original and idiosyncratic. Have a spiritual and aesthetic openness. Will find multiple levels of meaning to most events. May have a strong need and ability to pour themselves into artistic creations. Loners; can seem enigmatic and hard to read. Externally reserved and internally resonant. When they open up it can be sudden and total. When entranced or defensive, Fours with a 5 wing can easily feel alienated and depressed. Many have a sense of not belonging, of being from another planet. Can get lost in their own process, drown in their own ocean. Whiny - tend to ruminate and relive past experience. Prone to the emotion of shame. Air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment. May live within a private mythology of pain and loss. Can get deeply morbid and fall in love with death.
I personally relate to 4w5 much more than 4w3. I am sx first though and I can be competitive and overly jealous/possessive sometimes. I was going to bold what I related to in 4w5 but it would have been the whole thing minus the prone to shame. I feel it like anyone but I can push past it. I don't wallow in shame. I can be rather shameless at times and get away with it. I relate to some of 4w3 too.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Any description that says 4w3 are outgoing makes me cringe -_-
Are you sure you don't have any shame? I used to think I didn't either but I feel shame over my identity, sometimes going into moods where I realize nothing about me means anything and is pointless. I could take things and make them into *me* but that's inauthentic. For example. I would feel extreme guilt over acting inauthentic because im triple reactive too. I have this inner dilemma when I'm attracted to someone I want to be what they find attractive to pull them in but I also would feel extreme shame over being something I'm not.
The part about the dilemma when you find yourself attracted to someone is spot on! I mostly try to be what they would find attractive, eg type them then try and find out what they like in a girl and do that or act like their dual then feel guilty or not deserving later on because it's like living a lie. Is that a 4w3 tendency?
C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479
I have average shame without guilt, I guess. I kind of refuse to feel guilt and live in a way where I have nothing to feel guilty about now. My worst bout of guilt was a couple years ago and it almost ate me up inside. If I drink too much and get out of control I can wake up feeling dread and shame to face people. I don't really drink anymore. I suppose I had issues of shame over things I had no control over as a child which I don't want to talk about here. I worked through those in therapy. I relate to competition in sx 4 more. I don't think I experience envy in the same way other 4s might. I can be extremely jealous though and it can make me lose control of myself under certain circumstances. I feel I have more self control now than I ever have. I know my triggers and I deal with them.
I can spend long periods of time where I do not communicate with anyone. I have done days of silence which do not bother me. My friends and family do not usually disturb me when I go into my soft mode.
Last edited by Aylen; 02-07-2017 at 10:08 PM.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Eh, E4s are elitist, at least they're elitist about their aestheticism.
Actually I've been thinking, the aesthetic elitism might be low dimensionality Si.
Last edited by Singu; 02-04-2017 at 12:53 PM.
Explain this
C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479
Does knowing your wing actually matter? The enneagram system gives you plenty of material to work with even with only one basic type.
Reason is a whore.
I know that, but I just need to know
C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479
It's possible to have flavors of both wings attached to your type, you don't have to embrace one and fully drop the other. Which would make you 4ww35 or 4ww53 haha. Enneagram doesn't tunnel you into as set of a fixed model as Socionics, as we all possess aspects of the different types, some more central to our specific modality of being than others.
IME what it boils down to, is how creative energies are channeled. The whole 4w3 effete aristocrat and 4w5 iconoclast stereotype always struck me as silly, even when I self-typed as the latter. Where I see the difference, is that 4w3s are more compelled to find an outlet for the projections involved in what they internalize, whereas 4w5s more easily inhabit the space this process gives rise to, and construct in kind.
4w3-5w6-8w7
I could be a mistyped 1 or 3.
4w3s are more achievement-oriented than 4w5s.
4w5s might seem more "morbid."
What makes you unsure? Talk to me, maybe I can help. My brother is EII 4w5 and I dated an IEI 4w5 for two years. OTOH, I have a friend who is IEE 4w3 and a coworker who is EII 4w3. IMO the differences between the two are noticeable.
someday the grapes will be wine
and someday you will be mine
EII-Ne 2w3 - 9w1 - 7w8 so/sx
That's fair. I've lurked long enough to have read some of your posts, but I haven't chatted with you very much.
I will add something I thought about in the car, though. One of the ways I differentiate between the two types is by paying attention to how they try to protect their identities. 4w5s, in my experience, try to safeguard theirs by only revealing choice information to a few people, generally facts that are relevant to how they see themselves. 4w3s, on the other hand, protect their identities by showing themselves off in the best light. They SHOW relevant information rather than withhold contrary information, usually expressing themselves more openly than privately, though they can still be self-conscious and shy. Hope that makes sense.
someday the grapes will be wine
and someday you will be mine
EII-Ne 2w3 - 9w1 - 7w8 so/sx
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