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Thread: We need you to be a leader!

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    sigma's Avatar
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    Default We need you to be a leader!



    I suck at socionics but some of you don't suck so... help me out.

    What kind of leaders will the 16 types be? Can you give examples and maybe provide some thoughts regarding the type of leadership those specific people provided?

    For example: Gandhi was an IEI leader that provided strong meaning to the Indian people. He used a strong adherence to the ideal of non-violence and tried to bring that beautiful future closer to the present. Martin Luther King Jr. was another example of an IEI leader and again... it was a beautiful future presented very clearly to the people around him.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    ESTj Tom's Avatar
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    Soothsayers and profits of marxism in a way that appears to be exactly the opposite; what you see are charismatic controllers whom people with no self flock to in the hope that someone most people like will tell them what to do.
    Wond'ring aloud, How we feel today. Last night sipped the sunset, My hand in her hair. We are our own saviours, As we start both our hearts, Beating life Into each other. ~Ian Anderson

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    sigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Soothsayers and profits of marxism in a way that appears to be exactly the opposite; what you see are charismatic controllers whom people with no self flock to in the hope that someone most people like will tell them what to do.
    Change happened!
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    ESTj Tom's Avatar
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    Some of it "good", most of it "bad".

    All ALL of those assinine "movers" do is increase government to instill social reform, not actually reform. Spread the love with violence.
    Wond'ring aloud, How we feel today. Last night sipped the sunset, My hand in her hair. We are our own saviours, As we start both our hearts, Beating life Into each other. ~Ian Anderson

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    sigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    All ALL of those assinine "movers" do is increase government to instill social reform, not actually reform. Spread the love with violence.
    Just as a curiosity, if you see Gandhi and MLK Jr. as "violent" and asinine, what would be a good example of a leader that produced CHANGE with less violence and/or in a smarter way?
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    ESTj Tom's Avatar
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    Oh wow lol

    I don't mean that they, themselves were violent, only that while they tried to oppose violence they only succeeded in creating change in government (with minimal cultural change), which means more laws, which means more coercion, which means more violence on the part of the state. Not their fault, but they didn't help anything, really.
    Wond'ring aloud, How we feel today. Last night sipped the sunset, My hand in her hair. We are our own saviours, As we start both our hearts, Beating life Into each other. ~Ian Anderson

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    sigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Oh wow lol

    I don't mean that they, themselves were violent, only that while they tried to oppose violence they only succeeded in creating change in government (with minimal cultural change), which means more laws, which means more coercion, which means more violence on the part of the state. Not their fault, but they didn't help anything, really.
    Gandhi is credited with the independence of India and MLK with the change in racial perception in USA
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    ESTj Tom's Avatar
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    But they didn't actually do those things.

    All they did was incite a change of law, which happened to be an INCREASE. Granted, not so much of that was Ghandi's case; as far as I know he took out some big government shit. MLK, however nice and however good at public speaking, and however black, still only managed to increase government. People change on their own; all he did was symbolize the movement to you and others like you in other time periods.

    One person DOES NOT, EVER, change the future on so grand a scale. All things that coincide to make any point in the future occur are influenced by everyone and everything; they did have an effect, but no more than everyone else, really. Just because the camera focusses on one face, doesn't mean the others aren't there.

    I hate Ni; it really just cripples the thinker.
    Wond'ring aloud, How we feel today. Last night sipped the sunset, My hand in her hair. We are our own saviours, As we start both our hearts, Beating life Into each other. ~Ian Anderson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Just because the camera focusses on one face, doesn't mean the others aren't there.
    I never said they did it on their own. Just because there is gas, it doesn't mean that there will be fire. You need a firestarter.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    ESTj Tom's Avatar
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    But they aren't the firestarters. Everyone are the firestarters. They are only a face to the name of a cause; figureheads placed atop the head of the beast.
    Wond'ring aloud, How we feel today. Last night sipped the sunset, My hand in her hair. We are our own saviours, As we start both our hearts, Beating life Into each other. ~Ian Anderson

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    sigma's Avatar
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    Tom, I believe that all of us have the power. The Force is present in all of us! However, not all of us use the Force. Leaders are the one that use the Force. The go where no one has gone before and leave a path behind... or maybe they provide us with a new way of looking at things.

    What you are saying is that people like, for example, Michelangelo... don't really matter. After all, he was just the painter that took the credit for all the work done by all the painters involved in the painting of the Sistine Chapel. In many ways not too different from them. Still using brush and paint.

    As it was said in the movie.... What we do in life, echoes in eternity! These people that I mentioned left a larger echo... an echo that reached us.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    ESTj Tom's Avatar
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    Nothing matters: "All we are is shadows and dust, Maximus; shadows and dust..."

    See, I can quote movies too lol

    Seriously, though: I'm not saying that some people haven't made a larger impact than others from the perspective of the observer, but giving someone those intrinsic, messiah-esque qualities which you (and many, many others) seem to love attributing to people is just fantasy.

    Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I think this may be the cause of our dilemma?

    I agree with what I believe was your original thought, though; it would be nice if more light was shed on socionics to the general public. It's almost akin to Freud being out of the spotlight, though; people may not like hearing about it because it unnerves them in some fashion. A "spearhead" would be nice.
    Wond'ring aloud, How we feel today. Last night sipped the sunset, My hand in her hair. We are our own saviours, As we start both our hearts, Beating life Into each other. ~Ian Anderson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Seriously, though: I'm not saying that some people haven't made a larger impact than others from the perspective of the observer, but giving someone those intrinsic, messiah-esque qualities which you (and many, many others) seem to love attributing to people is just fantasy.
    I'm not seeing them decoupled from the human race or with any messiah qualities. On the contrary, I see them entirely human, proof of what a living human can do.
    As Seneca put it... most people are not living, they are merely existing.

    Leaders are proof of life, proof of what we can be if we wake up.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Oh wow lol

    I don't mean that they, themselves were violent, only that while they tried to oppose violence they only succeeded in creating change in government (with minimal cultural change), which means more laws, which means more coercion, which means more violence on the part of the state. Not their fault, but they didn't help anything, really.
    Maybe the extra law(s) are what was needed to make people realize that things are changing. I don't really think all laws are coercion... I think a lot of them reflect what the current society wants or needs.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    Maybe the extra law(s) are what was needed to make people realize that things are changing. I don't really think all laws are coercion... I think a lot of them reflect what the current society wants or needs.
    I don't think more laws are what society needs. The reign of Law is fading...

    Pierre Teilhard de Chardin said "The day will come when, after harnessing space, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. "

    With love as guide... the law is pointless.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    ESTj Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma View Post
    I'm not seeing them decoupled from the human race or with any messiah qualities. On the contrary, I see them entirely human, proof of what a living human can do.
    As Seneca put it... most people are not living, they are merely existing.

    Leaders are proof of life, proof of what we can be if we wake up.
    Great, only there is no "waking up". This "living" you talk about is no more and no less than existing. The more existential qualities to the existence of particular individuals serve only as a distraction to the incredible minuteness of their existence to the "even more" minute individual.

    I believe man is on a fast track to controlling more and more of what he sees around him, and this is a very good thing. The blinding light of man will pierce through the shroud of darkest night, yada, yada, yada, etc.

    Still; I think people lose focus/live a fantasia when they become the flock of some "great leader". They lose their individuality, and their passion, which may or may not be their own, becomes a jingoistic fervor for the sweltering, oppressive mass of groupthink.

    Advancement is wonderful, but the loss of the self and the omnipresent wight of law are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    Maybe the extra law(s) are what was needed to make people realize that things are changing. I don't really think all laws are coercion... I think a lot of them reflect what the current society wants or needs.
    Nope, they are all coercion. What "society" "wants" and "needs" have absolutely no ground of authority over you and your property; anything they might presume to control which is not theirs is theft. Also, society is a construct/concept, and doesn't really exist as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by sigma View Post
    I don't think more laws are what society needs. The reign of Law is fading...

    Pierre Teilhard de Chardin said "The day will come when, after harnessing space, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. "

    With love as guide... the law is pointless.
    While I don't necessarily think any of the above quote has a valid point in it, with increasing technology/the increasing ability for people to communicate, law becomes more and more difficult to keep, and I love that fact.
    Wond'ring aloud, How we feel today. Last night sipped the sunset, My hand in her hair. We are our own saviours, As we start both our hearts, Beating life Into each other. ~Ian Anderson

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    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Nope, they are all coercion. What "society" "wants" and "needs" have absolutely no ground of authority over you and your property; anything they might presume to control which is not theirs is theft. Also, society is a construct/concept, and doesn't really exist as a whole.
    Okay well lets substitute America for society. We create the laws, and while I personally may not agree with all of them (I do agree with a lot of them and think in some cases it helps organize our country) I still choose to live here. If it was all coercion you could simply choose to leave. Obviously they must not bother us all that much if we still live here. What exactly do they control that you think they don't have a right to and which they are stealing?
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma View Post
    I don't think more laws are what society needs. The reign of Law is fading...

    Pierre Teilhard de Chardin said "The day will come when, after harnessing space, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. "

    With love as guide... the law is pointless.
    Or you may see love as part of the laws. Adam of Perseigne said, "Law is love which binds and obliges."
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    well the problem is Bardia that the "social contract" (love it or leave it) is a myth.

    A contract must be explicit and voluntary and you can't be born into one.

    How would you like it if a gang took over your neighborhood and extorted everyone living there, claiming down through the years that if you don't like it you can just get out?
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