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Thread: Dualized Betas

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    Default Dualized Betas...

    What is the differences between a dualized SLE/LSI/EIE/IEI & a SLE/LSI/EIE/IEI who is not dualized?

    IEI, sp/sx 4w3.

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    What's difference between having a notion of the meaning of life, and experiencing the meaning of life.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    STs: more empathetic, generous, caring; seem more "human"

    NFs: more stable, driven, less moody; have a sense of direction
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    STs: more empathetic, generous, caring; seem more "human"

    NFs: more stable, driven, less moody; have a sense of direction
    stable... oh yes... and productive....
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Are we defining dualization as just 'having a dual around' or does it have to be a romantic dual relationship?

    What I mean is, does the fact that my father is LSI and my best friend is LSI make me a 'dualized' individual?
    ()
    3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Are we defining dualization as just 'having a dual around' or does it have to be a romantic dual relationship?

    What I mean is, does the fact that my father is LSI and my best friend is LSI make me a 'dualized' individual?
    I think it has to do with a significant interaction with a dual. If the interaction is with a partner... there are certain advantages but I don't think is necessary to be a romantic relationship.

    I don't care who whips my butt into action.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    They are fitter, happier, more productive, comfortable, not drinking too much, regular exercise at the gym, 3 days a week, getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries at ease, eating well, no more microwave dinners and saturated fats, a patient better driver, a safer car, baby smiling in back seat, sleeping well, no bad dreams, no paranoia, careful to all animals, never washing spiders down the plughole, keep in contact with old friends, enjoy a drink now and then, will frequently check credit at moral bank, hole in wall, favors for favors, fond but not in love.
    allez cuisine!

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    I love Idolatrie

    On the original thread question: Erm, I can attest to this somewhat because I have two very close LSI friends (not my duals?) and ever since university began for all of us, we've been separated. It feels like I'm empty, unfulfilled, not a bad pain or anything but a dull ache that is almost unnoticeable at times. We used to say that whenever we'd talk, LSIs and I, it would be like therapy for either of us. It honestly would be so helpful; I would go home and feel 10x better about myself, life, the world. Somehow we just understood each-other and without them in my life, I feel ... lost. I need direction or something. I don't know. I was a lot happier when I saw them everyday and I could vent out all my problems, actually GET solutions, workable ones, for them!

    My IEI boyfriend and I just seem to reach a dead end with problems. It's not like being with someone who has Se and Ti in their ego. Jeez, it's really accurate when they say identicals can not help each-other because they're just so similar.


    Dress pretty, play dirty ღ
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    They are fitter, happier, more productive, comfortable, not drinking too much, regular exercise at the gym, 3 days a week, getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries at ease, eating well, no more microwave dinners and saturated fats, a patient better driver, a safer car, baby smiling in back seat, sleeping well, no bad dreams, no paranoia, careful to all animals, never washing spiders down the plughole, keep in contact with old friends, enjoy a drink now and then, will frequently check credit at moral bank, hole in wall, favors for favors, fond but not in love.
    So dualised Betas become Delta? Talk about a rough deal...
    ()
    3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp

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    dualised: cool
    not dualised: a bit scary, either in a Se way or a Fe way

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    STs: more empathetic, generous, caring; seem more "human"

    NFs: more stable, driven, less moody; have a sense of direction
    the same goes for the deltas, i think

    way cool avatar. Makes me want to like u

    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    So dualised Betas become Delta? Talk about a rough deal...
    n00bIEE

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    I become a Healthy Robot.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    They are fitter, happier, more productive, comfortable, not drinking too much, regular exercise at the gym, 3 days a week, getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries at ease, eating well, no more microwave dinners and saturated fats, a patient better driver, a safer car, baby smiling in back seat, sleeping well, no bad dreams, no paranoia, careful to all animals, never washing spiders down the plughole, keep in contact with old friends, enjoy a drink now and then, will frequently check credit at moral bank, hole in wall, favors for favors, fond but not in love.
    ... (noises)

    ... (more noises)

    ... (silence)

    ...


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    dualized betas make me jealous. Cause I feel like they're getting what I need. beware the envy of a 4.



    that said, I do have a friend who's SLE and I always come away from our interactions feeling great. Like I can do anything. I get an extra measure of motivation from him and new hope. but it fades after awhile...
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    dualized betas make me jealous. Cause I feel like they're getting what I need. beware the envy of a 4.



    that said, I do have a friend who's SLE and I always come away from our interactions feeling great. Like I can do anything. I get an extra measure of motivation from him and new hope. but it fades after awhile...
    Didn't you start a thread about Se/Ni appreciation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Didn't you start a thread about Se/Ni appreciation?
    Yup. I appreciate it when I can get it. But I don't get enough of it to consider myself dualized on a regular basis (he's married to another IEI and I'm married to ESE).
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    ....a pig in a cage on antibiotics....


    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    I love Idolatrie


    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post




    I think I'm calmer, a bit more balanced, around my dual. Usually I spend a lot of time around unefille, but this past summer I was socialising a lot without her. And I think I felt more pressure to be 'on', more conscious of every little action and interaction around me. I think being around her creates a kind of little bubble or buffer between us and others, that we can slip into each other's orbit and find a really smooth mode of interaction where I don't need to hyperanalyse every little event.

    I mean, I was hanging out with my identical a lot, and I also didn't really feel I needed to be 'on' around him, I could just say and do whatever, and he'd understand perfectly. In fact, that kind of perfect understanding really surprised me, I don't think I've ever found that before. But it is so much more complicated with him, because I don't think either of us has (or is willing to) define our relationship so that's always there in the background, being problematic.
    allez cuisine!

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    Actually, if I took the past summer as an example, I think the effects of dualisation are clear. I spent it on vacation (for about 3 months) overseas without either idolatrie or my father. The previous year I spent about 3 months overseas away from home, but with idolatrie. If you compare the two experiences, it's pretty clear that the LSI provides stability, calm and grounding to the EIE.

    Unlike last summer, when idolatrie and I had a lovely vacation together, having fun in an orderly, well-planned and rather productive/sober way (we had goals, we had early mornings and regular hours, we had a list of destinations and daily itineraries), I spent this vacation: sleeping in until 2 hours before I needed to go out, going out all the time, spending most of my nights in clubs/at parties/cabbing from one place to another, drifting from one hedonistic high to another, basically, completely unanchored. I had no routine, my emotional mood swings got pretty extreme at points and I just felt I couldn't come to a resting point at all, was swinging around like a pendulum in a storm.

    I think the way it works is that I get really bored easily and I something that I can pour out my emotional energy at/into. Without my dual, I have all this excess to get rid of, almost, and so, in short, I go a little crazy/wild. On the other hand, when I am with my dual, I'm much more content to just stay at home and basically throw all my emotional energy at them, after which, I am nice and calm and they go from robot to human (I'm just joking...right?) And they keep their lives so structured and 'on-track' that it's so easy just to fall back on their structures when my own flimsy self-imposed ones collapse, as they routinely and inevitably do, giving way to my moods/whimsies etc.

    I think the fact that my dad was LSI gave me a sense of stability when I was growing up and kept me from going as off-track as I have otherwise. I don't have stories about wild nights and emotional meltdowns (well, I do, but they could have been SO MUCH WORSE, you know? Because I can totally be that crazy bitch who starts setting things on fire and breaking glasses in the middle of an emotional 'moment' whilst in a public place, like a nightclub, after drinking like a fish and smoking like a chimney to try and drown out the voices inside, especially during the more hormonal days of being a teenager), but I'm more emotionally healthy, mature and intact. And SANE. So, it's a pretty good trade-off, I think.
    ()
    3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Actually, if I took the past summer as an example, I think the effects of dualisation are clear. I spent it on vacation (for about 3 months) overseas without either idolatrie or my father. The previous year I spent about 3 months overseas away from home, but with idolatrie. If you compare the two experiences, it's pretty clear that the LSI provides stability, calm and grounding to the EIE.
    crazy.

    Unlike last summer, when idolatrie and I had a lovely vacation together, having fun in an orderly, well-planned and rather productive/sober way (we had goals, we had early mornings and regular hours, we had a list of destinations and daily itineraries), I spent this vacation: sleeping in until 2
    sounds boring

    hours before I needed to go out, going out all the time, spending most of my nights in clubs/at parties/cabbing from one place to another, drifting from one hedonistic high to another, basically, completely unanchored. I had no routine, my emotional mood swings got pretty extreme at points and I just felt I couldn't come to a resting point at all, was swinging around like a pendulum in a storm.
    that sounds mor like me

    I think the way it works is that I get really bored easily and I something that I can pour out my emotional energy at/into. Without my dual, I have all this excess to get rid of, almost, and so, in short, I go a little crazy/wild. On the
    heh.

    other hand, when I am with my dual, I'm much more content to just stay at home and basically throw all my emotional energy at them, after which, I am nice and calm and they go from robot to human (I'm just joking...right?)
    humans are good.

    And they keep their lives so structured and 'on-track' that it's so easy just to fall back on their structures when my own flimsy self-imposed ones collapse, as they routinely and inevitably do, giving way to my moods/whimsies etc.
    haha

    I think the fact that my dad was LSI gave me a sense of stability when I was growing up and kept me from going as off-track as I have otherwise. I don't have stories about wild nights and emotional meltdowns (well, I do, but they could have been SO MUCH WORSE, you know? Because I can totally be that crazy bitch who starts setting things on fire and breaking glasses in the middle of an emotional 'moment' whilst in a public place, like a nightclub, after drinking like a fish and smoking like a chimney to try and drown out the voices inside, especially during the more hormonal days of being a teenager), but I'm more emotionally healthy, mature and intact. And SANE. So, it's a pretty good trade-off, I think.
    have you done stimulants before?

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    The difference between a dualized and a non-dualized Beta must look kinda like the difference between Silke and Aylen. Or between Strrrng and BnD/crazedrat.
    Last edited by Amber; 05-03-2015 at 06:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    Jesus, if any of this holds no wonder I feel so undualized.


    Duals just make you lazy and needy if you rely on them to cover your weaknesses and do everything for you. Some of my SLE duals have helped push me out of my comfort zone and do things I didn't believe I could do or even know that I wanted to do BUT other types have done the same. ILI hit me with that Te until I had to suck it up and deal with it. If it wasn't for an ILI I would have never gone back to school. The biggest difference is that I am less inclined to get seriously angry with an SLE dual for pushing too hard. Of course all this is hindsight since I didn't even know what a dual was until I joined here. Romantic dual relationships should be like some kind of end of life reward. After the world has had it's way with you. <3

    So dualised Betas become Delta? Talk about a rough deal...


    Well, that would explain some things I have observed.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    STs: more empathetic, generous, caring; seem more "human"

    NFs: more stable, driven, less moody; have a sense of direction
    This.

    I recall strrrng grew up with LII father or so ... which confirms my hypothesis about dualization as an incorporation/strengthening of functions, not as laziness and dependency on duals/others.

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    i don't know whether there are really perceivable differences .. for me duality is a pretty invisible thing. internally i feel calmer, more confident, happier being myself, less anxious too, the feeling of 'perfect' moments (perfectly located in time and space, there is no one else where i want to be) but on the outside i'm pretty much the same, i think.
    but then again, the closest i come to duality are a few very close interactions in a semi-work environment (not impersonal, though) in the past year in time periods of max. 1-2 weeks each (and then being separated for a long time). not sure how long it takes or what it needs until you see the 'results' of duality (like: "this IEI is actually productive", or something).
    what really throws me off course is when we're separated. after i said goodbye to the SLE last time i was perfectly fine for two days. then my mood suddenly drops and i have to force myself out of bed for weeks. and the pain that something very important is missing.. like a pendulum swinging to the other extreme. :/
    Last edited by lynn; 06-01-2015 at 07:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post
    This.

    I recall strrrng grew up with LII father or so ... which confirms my hypothesis about dualization as an incorporation/strengthening of functions, not as laziness and dependency on duals/others.
    IEE... but yeah, I agree. I think dualization implicitly has something to do with how naturally and fluidly one already is oriented toward their superid functions. without this, you're likely to get a more polarized experience, i.e. very relaxing but depressed after.


    I talk to an SLE once every two weeks or so and it's always very natural and pleasant, and I've never experienced withdrawal. it's always the day after that I feel extremely Se, just disparately spanned across my environment in a kind of self-contained, surreal realm. Se is cool.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Full disclosure, as a couple of you know, I have had a dual friend living with me for a little while now because I owed them that. They have been a tremendous help in dealing with things around my house that I was clueless and/or lacked motivation to do. This frees me up from stressing over stuff I have no inclination to do so my comment about being lazy was more facetious than anything, although socionics is far from a serious matter in my perception.

    But yeah one can become dependent on that but there is a certain need for healthy interdependence for someone like me. I have fought hard to be independent but when all is said and done, I can't do it all alone. They allow me to focus on things I would rather be doing like getting my computers organized and my home network running smoothly. I am not going to give them all the credit for my newfound motivation but I am sure it is an influence. Some of my "duals" on this forum have been equally motivating privately in different areas of my life.

    The only reason I can see for feeling withdrawal from someone is that it is a romantic situation? Yeah I have had that happen with a couple different types so I don't think it is just a dual thing.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    The only reason I can see for feeling withdrawal from someone is that it is a romantic situation? Yeah I have had that happen with a couple different types so I don't think it is just a dual thing.
    I experienced this brand of feeling of withdrawal outside romantic situations. I have EIE friends/acquaintances who I didn't meet for a while and I started feeling this. Also, last year I was talking to / meeting with an EIE guy for a while.. and I remember that afterwards, going home I actually felt a slight withdrawal thingie even tho' it wasn't really a romantic situation. Well sure he was into me pretty quickly but I wasn't.. I wasn't going much beyond just being friends. Yet, the communication and just being together was so good and then I got this feeling afterwards.

    But overall, I don't really think I'm dualized much, I see this process as requiring more than just spending time sometimes with duals. Needs more time, more depth of communication, maybe more self-awareness too. I don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Actually, if I took the past summer as an example, I think the effects of dualisation are clear. I spent it on vacation (for about 3 months) overseas without either idolatrie or my father. The previous year I spent about 3 months overseas away from home, but with idolatrie. If you compare the two experiences, it's pretty clear that the LSI provides stability, calm and grounding to the EIE.

    Unlike last summer, when idolatrie and I had a lovely vacation together, having fun in an orderly, well-planned and rather productive/sober way (we had goals, we had early mornings and regular hours, we had a list of destinations and daily itineraries), I spent this vacation: sleeping in until 2 hours before I needed to go out, going out all the time, spending most of my nights in clubs/at parties/cabbing from one place to another, drifting from one hedonistic high to another, basically, completely unanchored. I had no routine, my emotional mood swings got pretty extreme at points and I just felt I couldn't come to a resting point at all, was swinging around like a pendulum in a storm.
    Lol hmm I'm comparing this to the vacation I had with an EIE girl. I don't really want to say that it was that terribly strictly organized and planned out in much much detail as described here but yes pretty much it was organized by me. There was still some spontaneity though I would say that's also needed with such things.


    I think the way it works is that I get really bored easily and I something that I can pour out my emotional energy at/into. Without my dual, I have all this excess to get rid of, almost, and so, in short, I go a little crazy/wild. On the other hand, when I am with my dual, I'm much more content to just stay at home and basically throw all my emotional energy at them, after which, I am nice and calm and they go from robot to human (I'm just joking...right?) And they keep their lives so structured and 'on-track' that it's so easy just to fall back on their structures when my own flimsy self-imposed ones collapse, as they routinely and inevitably do, giving way to my moods/whimsies etc.
    Interesting viewpoint there. Does make sense considering my experiences.


    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I think dualization implicitly has something to do with how naturally and fluidly one already is oriented toward their superid functions. without this, you're likely to get a more polarized experience, i.e. very relaxing but depressed after.
    Yeah, that's a good way to describe that withdrawal thingie.


    I talk to an SLE once every two weeks or so and it's always very natural and pleasant, and I've never experienced withdrawal. it's always the day after that I feel extremely Se, just disparately spanned across my environment in a kind of self-contained, surreal realm. Se is cool.
    Heh, I also noticed this lately with my EIE friends. I temporarily feel more Fe after meeting them. That happens with a slight delay, so like, next day, yeah. It wasn't like this until recently. I'm not sure if it can also mix with the withdrawal thingie? And not sure why I'd experience this change? I'm curious if others here ever experienced anything like this. ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    I had to think about this and observe since I started a dual relationship around the time you wrote your comment. So far that really hasn't been the case regarding the laziness and neediness -- I don't really confuse psychological comfort with complacency and neediness or over-attachment comes and goes depending on to what degree one is unhealthy, neurotic, mature etc in my opinion. The duality that I'm currently experiencing in terms of my insecurities is more something akin to taking a class on how to overcome the fear of swimming or something like that. Very easy and effective. I tend to have a lot of insecurities about trust and intimacy and she is very much a rock when it comes to assuring me and being patient through the storms of defensiveness that come up. By being open and emotionally available/expressive to her she feels she can trust me more and let her emotions/private interiority come to the fore. Beta rational duals might be quite a bit different from irrationals and I also have pretty amazing chemistry with the person I'm with so your mileage may vary...so this is just my experience and yeah I generally agree with the sentiment that Socionics is pretty much on the bullshit side of things and duality shouldn't be idealized as much.
    Do you mean experiences that support the theory and especially the concept of duality are more the exception than the rule?

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    Do people use duality as a metaphor for being adapted.

    Or everyone is saying that you need a special someone, a dual to be not crazy.

    I dunno if you're all romantics, idealists or leeches.

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    @Words is feeling ANTSY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    I had to think about this and observe since I started a dual relationship around the time you wrote your comment. So far that really hasn't been the case regarding the laziness and neediness -- I don't really confuse psychological comfort with complacency and neediness or over-attachment comes and goes depending on to what degree one is unhealthy, neurotic, mature etc in my opinion. The duality that I'm currently experiencing in terms of my insecurities is more something akin to taking a class on how to overcome the fear of swimming or something like that. Very easy and effective. I tend to have a lot of insecurities about trust and intimacy and she is very much a rock when it comes to assuring me and being patient through the storms of defensiveness that come up. By being open and emotionally available/expressive to her she feels she can trust me more and let her emotions/private interiority come to the fore. Beta rational duals might be quite a bit different from irrationals and I also have pretty amazing chemistry with the person I'm with so your mileage may vary...so this is just my experience and yeah I generally agree with the sentiment that Socionics is pretty much on the bullshit side of things and duality shouldn't be idealized as much.
    This is so cool, Bain. Happy for you!

    I will just give one example of where being lazy and/or needy comes into play. I know how to put furniture together. I have figured it out for myself many times in the past. My ese sister and I put a whole room together by ourselves once. But with my friend, who is a dual, around, all of a sudden I kinda feel like I can't do things like that well enough anymore. I look at the instructions and get a headache. Recently I asked my IEI brother to put something together for me because I did not want to do it and I did not want to impose on my friend. My brother did it and it was put together wrong. He misjudged the force needed and screwed it too tight. The table was a bit lopsided and we were both just looking at it and decided "good enough". hahah

    The truth is it wasn't good enough and it was bothering me. I wanted it to look perfect but I didn't want my brother to feel bad. I would have done it myself but I was not picking up on what he did wrong. I thought the parts may not have been aligned correctly at the factory and it might have been defective. I didn't put much thought into it. My SLE friend walks in and immediately looks at the table and knows exactly what went wrong and went to work fixing it. Took like 3 minutes. Seems like my brother and are starting to totally rely on him fixing things because we know he knows what he is doing. It comes naturally to him or something.

    Before he was around, if we needed something done, we had to do it ourselves. I don't know if it is laziness or neediness but I have grown used to asking him to do things I do not want to do and I appreciate it when he does but I don't want to take advantage of anyone. There are areas though where he has made me do things I do not want to do and afterwards I feel good about it. Not resentful at all. I hate to appear weak and now I feel I may be subconsciously projecting weakness which makes my friend go into action mode to sort me out. He is also very good at praising my strengths and he downplays my weaknesses or just ignores them sometimes. He will tell me to "stop being a pussy" and do it if he thinks I am being lazy. It is like he can tell the difference. Maybe that is an intuitive sense he gets.

    I realize there is a difference in romantic duality and friendship duality. I am not as emotionally invested as I would be if we were. I feel secure in our friendship and believe it is a lasting one. His Ni seeking is obvious and he takes every opportunity to listen to me when I am talking about things I am confident about. He takes my advice seriously and does not make fun of my spiritual ramblings and predictions. He actually gives me a lot of credit when it comes to forecasting how events will unfold. This friendship is very easy/comfortable. I did ask if I was asking for too much and he said no. He does not resent being asked for help. I think he kind of likes it as long as he is in charge and is appreciated for it. He has a lot of energy and is always doing things. I would be exhausted living his life.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    sadly, i think it's very easy to become dependent on a dual. for me it's not about the part doing stuff for me, or something like that, (i have other people to help me ) but i'm dependent on the Se source of energy (together with Ti; SEE's can't help me with this at all) to feel less disembodied and actually leave my house without feeling that life's demands are to heavy on me. (i fall easily into long phases of inactivity where i feel lifeless and disconnected from the physical world or anything.) with a SLE around, or with the right ISTj together with a very vibrant ENFj, everything feel's fine for a moment ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    Where have I said or implied that?
    I could see you were saying a lot of the stuff about the theory that's stated by various socionics theorists is bullshit - which we totally agree on - but I wasn't clear on where you place the idea of duality in terms of that. Did you mean your experience does support the duality idea just as stated in orthodox socionics while duality* may check out less for other people?

    *: I would agree that for a good relationship you do need more than duality, other factors obviously also matter so I'm not asking about that. Just simply about the factor of duality itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    They are fitter, happier, more productive, comfortable, not drinking too much, regular exercise at the gym, 3 days a week, getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries at ease, eating well, no more microwave dinners and saturated fats, a patient better driver, a safer car, baby smiling in back seat, sleeping well, no bad dreams, no paranoia, careful to all animals, never washing spiders down the plughole, keep in contact with old friends, enjoy a drink now and then, will frequently check credit at moral bank, hole in wall, favors for favors, fond but not in love.
    Socionics: The New Jesus!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    Do people use duality as a metaphor for being adapted.

    Or everyone is saying that you need a special someone, a dual to be not crazy.
    I know Words is banned now but in case anyone else would ever get confused like him, I would like to point out that duality/a dual is a much more specific concept than simply being adapted or a special friend/partner and that's what gives the concept its value, it's about more than just generic talk about how it's good to be adapted and whatever. Of course that's also working with the assumption that it's a concept that is anchored to reality but IMO it is


    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    (..) I realize there is a difference in romantic duality and friendship duality. I am not as emotionally invested as I would be if we were. I feel secure in our friendship and believe it is a lasting one. His Ni seeking is obvious and he takes every opportunity to listen to me when I am talking about things I am confident about. He takes my advice seriously and does not make fun of my spiritual ramblings and predictions. He actually gives me a lot of credit when it comes to forecasting how events will unfold. This friendship is very easy/comfortable. I did ask if I was asking for too much and he said no. He does not resent being asked for help. I think he kind of likes it as long as he is in charge and is appreciated for it. He has a lot of energy and is always doing things. I would be exhausted living his life.
    Honestly your examples of being needy and lazy don't really sound as such to me. Why not delegate tasks that you are less efficient about doing, to other people if they are willing to do it? Then you can focus on what you're really good at and improve in that. And I suppose if you really need to solve such issues on your own later when your duals aren't around (hopefully only temporarily ), you can still figure it out if you must. Practicing a few specific tasks wasting much time when you could've had a dual sort it out within minutes will not make your superid much better anyway as those functions are not high dimensional information processing, meaning the practice you get, if you even learn something from trying so hard, will not readily be transferred to new types of situations. Especially true of DS function, HA not as much but somewhat applies to HA as well. This is the idea in theory and I find it does line up with reality but I'll add my own observation about that; if you already understand where your weaknesses lie in a cognitive sense, you can make yourself switch your mindset and focus on these elements of information processing sometimes when you need to and that is helpful more than just practicing tasks blindly.

    Also, looks like your SLE friend understands how not to let you get overly lazy anyway. So I don't know how common that is with duals but that's very cool and it means duality doesn't have to result in that sort of bad laziness that you originally meant. I also relate to this myself, when helping EIEs, btw.


    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    Yeah I can see what you mean in terms of having to overly rely on one's dual to perform tasks where one is perhaps weak and seeks development. In general, and coming from my perspective there are some things I don't really like or want to do that my dual is much more capable of and there are things that I do like or want to do that my dual is much more capable of and vice versa. For example, I fucking hate doing shit like organizing my house and bills and all that but my dual may actually like it -- not that I wouldn't help out or anything (or that LSIs are only good at taxes or some shit) but shifting responsibility or authority over certain tasks or what have you that I am averse to doing and will never really enjoy or feel natural at performing isn't that big of a deal to me. On the other hand maybe say building a car or performing certain intellectual tasks that require hard logical and analytical skills is enjoyable to me and I want to struggle through those things to figure them out. I won't hesitate to say what's what and tell them to maybe back off a bit and let me learn. It's more an issue of communicating to the person that you would like to figure whatever it is that needs to be done out on your own or with guidance than perhaps constantly relying on them. I think you're right romantic dual relationships and dual friendships are different -- especially in terms of communication. I'm certain that the power dynamic between SLEs and IEIs is also much much different than LSIs and EIEs.
    Hmm I guess it depends on the person too but I don't think I ever had a problem with trying to supply too much Ti to my duals. I think it kinda is natural for me to see when they need it and if not then I don't try to interfere. Like, why would I do that if I believe my dual is intelligent enough to figure out a hard task that they seem to be enjoying. The only exception so far was when one of my friends got into a very stressful life situation and she truly seemed helpless at figuring things out, then I'm sure I got a bit too interfering and she consequently became a bit overly reliant on me which I noticed quickly so then we were able to communicate that issue to each other so it was OK in the end. I'm not going to say it was not flattering in a sense that I was needed so much but I thought it was not good for her to be over-reliant like that. Really it was just her stressful situation clouding my judgment a bit too because I was involuntarily feeling too involved. I read somewhere in some article about stages of duality that duality can get into this stage - after duality already deepened a lot - where one dual in very bad stress can completely pull in the other one too. I would like to think that I can resist that if I recognize it in time, though

    How do you think power dynamics are different between SLE/IEI vs LSI/IEI?

    Btw, doing the taxes is fucking boring, trust me, lol. And bills, uh, keep that shit simple within a neat system.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lim View Post
    sadly, i think it's very easy to become dependent on a dual. for me it's not about the part doing stuff for me, or something like that, (i have other people to help me ) but i'm dependent on the Se source of energy (together with Ti; SEE's can't help me with this at all) to feel less disembodied and actually leave my house without feeling that life's demands are to heavy on me. (i fall easily into long phases of inactivity where i feel lifeless and disconnected from the physical world or anything.) with a SLE around, or with the right ISTj together with a very vibrant ENFj, everything feel's fine for a moment ...
    Oh how does the Ti matter, why doesn't it work with SEEs? And what is it about LSI/EIE being around helping you, how?

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Yup. I appreciate it when I can get it. But I don't get enough of it to consider myself dualized on a regular basis (he's married to another IEI and I'm married to ESE).
    How could you marry an ESE as an IEI Type 4? Surely, there must have been factors I don't know of (yet), but I know for myself as a fellow IEI Type 4 that it would be very unlikely for me to marry an ESE – dare I say close to impossible. Maybe it is partly you being Fe subtype that changes the dynamic for the better?

    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    SLEs and IEIs look to me like the image of a caveman or woman being tricked by their mates to hit them on the head and drag them back to their caves... And thus a relationship is born. There seems to be more overt dominance of SLEs over IEIs in some respects -- in particular their energy levels.


    It looks like rape, but it isn't. If you watch the movie, you'll understand.


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    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    Yes, so far in my experience it checks out as positively as is written in the theory but there are other factors involved that I won't get into or have already alluded to. I mean that one shouldn't idealize duality if one for example is mentally and emotionally unhealthy. It shouldn't be seen a saving grace in that respect. It is merely a theoretical concept and will most likely not check out for other people in a case by case basis if one's expectations are messed up to begin with.
    Yeah, absolutely.

    Though it does not seem just a theoretical concept but something that has a basis in reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    That's a good way of approaching it.

    I have no idea how SLEs and IEIs operate exactly with respect to their own power dynamics. With respect to LSIs and EIEs? In general, there seems to be a more apparent blurring of the lines in terms of behaviors and roles in the relationship. For example the aggressor-victim dichotomy in terms of how sharply delineated it seems in the SLE-IEI relationship seems less pronounced -- at once one type may be aggressor the other victim or vice versa, some mixture of the two even. It also seems more like a relationship where relative strengths balance each other out to where it's a competition between two equals. That's a bit vague but the power disparity seems much less pronounced in some things. SLEs and IEIs look to me like the image of a caveman or woman being tricked by their mates to hit them on the head and dragged back to their caves... And thus a relationship is born. There seems to be more overt dominance of SLEs over IEIs in some respects -- in particular their energy levels.
    Again, I can only say the same, that's what SLE/IEI looks like to me.. and yeah to the rest too, matches my experiences
    Last edited by Myst; 05-29-2015 at 02:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    That's a good way of approaching it.

    I have no idea how SLEs and IEIs operate exactly with respect to their own power dynamics. With respect to LSIs and EIEs? In general, there seems to be a more apparent blurring of the lines in terms of behaviors and roles in the relationship. For example the aggressor-victim dichotomy in terms of how sharply delineated it seems in the SLE-IEI relationship seems less pronounced -- at once one type may be aggressor the other victim or vice versa, some mixture of the two even. It also seems more like a relationship where relative strengths balance each other out to where it's a competition between two equals. That's a bit vague but the power disparity seems much less pronounced in some things. SLEs and IEIs look to me like the image of a caveman or woman being tricked by their mates to hit them on the head and dragged back to their caves... And thus a relationship is born. There seems to be more overt dominance of SLEs over IEIs in some respects -- in particular their energy levels.
    I am going through an amazing dual communication at the moment and thoughts like this make me smile. This relationship (if I can call it as such because we are not really committed in a usual societal understanding) is something really outstanding that we both have never experienced before.
    I think that EIE/LSI as a rational entity presents a certain necessity to know where they both stand before switching their roles. The SLE/IEI dynamics is different since we don’t have this need to feel “equal” or to blur the lines. Our way of dealing with each other is quite gender marked (something that you may have associated with that caveman thing). I do enjoy the feeling being a fragile little thing and he totally enjoys to be the rock I can rely on. Our conversations are very fluid, both being quite closed/guarded in a different way, we are extremely sincere and open between us. We can also be extremely teasing but somehow none of us feels bad about it, I feel like I don't wreck him in his insecurities (he is really very very guarded).
    In 24 hours I took 0 decisions and that was heaven. It made me feel totally energized and I talked more than I usually do. He on the other hand does need to take the lead but I have a kind of calming even balancing influence on him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    I think that EIE/LSI as a rational entity presents a certain necessity to know where they both stand before switching their roles. The SLE/IEI dynamics is different since we don’t have this need to feel “equal” or to blur the lines.
    I could feel comfortable in an "equal" relationship, but I could not stand feeling superior. If that was the case, I would not even enter the relationship in the first place.

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    Whenever I think of LSI - EIE duality, I think of Gloria and Jay from modern family. I remember the episode where they even said that Gloria was with Jay simply because she viewed him as a worthy opponent



    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
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