This is a debate between Allie, Jessica, Archon Alarion, and whoever else. Fight nice.
This is a debate between Allie, Jessica, Archon Alarion, and whoever else. Fight nice.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
This is one discussion that really get's my blood boiling and I'm probobly going to say some things I don't mean so maybe I shouldn't even go there. I accept people have their views, but his mentality really pisses me off. Allie basically took the words out of my mouth and I thought her post in my military thread was right on.
The US military as a whole has done a lot of very, very criminal actions. My Lei, the Haditha massacre, the list goes on. But the thing was, those were either ordered massacres or those criminals who committed those atrocities do not represent the individual solider who goes in to see the world or get a free college education, or a plethora of other reasons. They're good people.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
Well im not just against the US military. I'm against the initiation of aggression. My position is that all human interactions should be voluntary, and when they aren't, the aggressed upon party has the right to protect themselves, others, property, etc.
Taxation is simply extortion on a grand scale. You dont like the mafia? Then why condone the most successful mafia, the state?
lmao, much laughs result:
PEOPLE ARE TOO STUPID TO MAKE RATIONAL DECISIONS.
SO WE SHOULD HAVE THOSE STUPID PEOPLE DECIDE WHICH STUPID PEOPLE
SHOULD TELL THE REST OF THE STUPID PEOPLE WHAT TO DO AT GUNPOINT.
We can begin there.
The end is nigh
Like I have said before, I have always wanted military training, not that I look forward to killing people or anything, but I have for a long time wanted to be in the military. I am also a strong believer in having some kind of military force as to protect the country's sovereignty.
I delayed joining, and then I started to, in short, learn about the New World Order. Now I have decided not to join the military of this present government. Instead I protect the American people and our charter (the constitution) by preparing to save people against the real threat (the NWO).
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Hah, okay Jimbean.
Responding to his reply to me in the last thread:
http://the16types.info/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=128
Then why are you debating this? We need defense regardless of what system we're under. Why are you telling Jessica that she's stealing your money to kill people? I agree with her—I'm sure it's pretty fucking easy to say that in the comfort of your bedroom, preaching anarchism to a computer screen. Do we have that "ideal system" yet, Archon? No, we don't. But defense is a necessity, even if it has yet to be perfected.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
i inform people for now. Its really all i can do.
I love the whole you can't support a position because you are young deal though.
Thats not a logical fallacy or anything.
I be 18 a couple of days ago
The end is nigh
And let me say this:
This is not just some rosy debate that involves something purely theoretical. We are talking about life and death. So let's keep this tied only to facts.
But I'll go ahead and say something else, and that is the fact that governments historically have been the greatest threat to free people, and the number one unnatural killer throughout the 20th century has been the domestic actions of governments.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
I suppose you're just ignoring my response to you, then? Well, that says a lot.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
Thank you.
Archon, in this and the last thread, you haven't even said anything. What I mean is, you throw out these aimless criticisms of things based on premises that are far too ideological to be valuable, and harp on details which are too miniscule to be expounded upon. Once you can surmount petty context-shifting and logical fallacies, people will listen to what you say. But no one cares about a misguided pseudo-anarchist who doesn't even seem to know what he believes, yet tells others how they are wrong.
What about informing yourself? Self-appointed arbitration is bullshit. No one asked for a lesson on government.Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion
4w3-5w6-8w7
Heh?
I said im all for defense. The military not only is funded by aggression, but is used to aggress against other regions and also to threaten uprisings here.
So idk, what you mean.
I do not consider the military defense. It is more used against me than for me.
I support self defense, voluntary collective defense such as militias or private defense associations, etc.
The end is nigh
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
Foolish. Go study some history, read the constitution, do something other than sit in your room and decry something which you don't even understand.
You wouldn't be talking shit about it, if it hadn't helped you.I do not consider the military defense. It is more used against me than for me.
4w3-5w6-8w7
archron, if you want any chance of saving your dignity from now on, I advise you to take a break from the heat and think about your ideology and how you can enlighten us about your beliefs. I'm not being sarcastic.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
What about foreign operations? Say, if you are 100% sure that a foreign military will try to achieve an objective that is harmful to people here domestically, now do you wait for that army to attack on your territory with the initiative or do you strike first and have the initiative?
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Taxation:
If you do not give up your money to us then we will throw you in jail
If you dont come quietly we'll shoot you.
That is stealing.
Constitution:
Not a contractual obligation, not explicitly agreed to by those who fall under its domain. A contract is explicit and voluntary.
Military:
Yes I understand that once in a while the state will protect its livestock with its gunarm. So what?
The end is nigh
Wait, what?Originally Posted by starfall
I'm relatively well-versed in such things as the US government, but I want him to prove the robustness of his arguments and the robustness of his oratorical skills. He is talking about things that he should be able to back up with factual evidence, not a story about the "Gunarm and the Sheep". You hear this stuff 24/7 from people who want to change the world in very radical ways.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
You are missing the point. But fine, if you care more about not paying taxes than the defense of your loved ones, yourself, and your country; then I suppose this is an outrage to you. Just tell me, what's important to you—your life or your taxes? Let's not be petty here—it's not even about that, in all honesty. Ideally it wouldn't come from taxes, but in reality: it does. It's not perfect, but it's necessary for the time being. And to be clear, I'm not preaching "greater goods" because I don't believe in that. I'm referring to pragmatism.
Hopefully you understand the concept of survival. You work with what you have. I'm sorry that in circumstances of scarcity, the food you eat isn't gourmet—but it's better than starvation. And it's unfortunate that people have been killed in the process of self-defense, but it's better than getting killed yourself. You have to be pragmatic and work with what you have. I'm sorry that the reality of the circumstance doesn't fit your ideals, but we're not living by your standards. If you can't adapt to what's happening now and take action to improve the current status if it dissatisfies you, then no one's going to give a damn what you have to say. I certainly don't.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
Its just there is a shitload of information and "facts" out there.
Im presenting principles sure. I can produce statistics and you can produce statistics and we can do it all day.
First tell me how my reasoning is faulty.
I mean its good to clarify positions and definitons first, right?
The end is nigh
You need to produce facts. I know it seems like we are all just picking on you, but you have to understand, and hopefully will, that facts are more important than any position you want to take.
First of all, and it could just be me, but I don't think it is valid to mix two seperate subjects together without any clarity. So far you talked about taxes and military strategy.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
The problem with the United States military is the degree to which its actions are completely unaccountable. The vastness of the U.S.'s military power and the construction of its hierarchy create an organization whom, throughout history, have performed various acts against humanity and have done many things not for the sake of our country, but for the higher ups whom pull the strings. Of course, one cannot have a functioning military that can defend your country without a little bit of corruption, but as it stands, the degree to which the U.S. military operates on its own accord and without concern for defense itself, but rather selfishly motivated goals disguised as such, is completely unacceptable and the structure itself needs a complete reorientation in a way that makes it only acceptable for it to exist for self-defense purposes. Yes, we need a military, but, no, the current one is not some icon of American greatness and a beacon of hope and democracy. It needs to change.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
uhg, I know im poorly representing my position.
maybe these videos will give you random points about Free market anarchism
Note, im kinda pickin shit at random they are not necessarily about the military.
(has other parts)
Thats a start I guess. Really just random stuff, sorry if you dont like it.
The end is nigh
After reading this, jimbean is fucking awesome.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
I am acting by informing. Ideas are memes and im trying to help spread this one.
Do you want me to go and shoot my local statesman or something? We anarchists are not exactly a majority at the moment.
And I would posit that in the long run my family and friends would be better off without the state.
Maybe Im still missing your point.
The end is nigh
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
You are.
Okay, I see that you're against a lot, but are you actually for anything? You're dissatisfied with the way things are right now, but it's obviously necessary until improvements are made. You keep diverging from your original stance:
"Thank you for accepting the money stolen from my family, friends, and everyone who fall within the borders of 'The United States of America' and using it to kill people."
I'll try being blatantly simple: Don't condemn Jessica's choice to serve in the U.S. Military with the reasoning of not being satisfied with the military system. Although far from ideal, it's still important. What alternative is there? To have none at all? This is my point.
Are you even living in the present right now? The world don't stop for you. If you're not happy with the current situation, you can't just put everything on pause to revise it and then press play again. You have to adapt to what's happening now and react to the current affairs—not your theoretical ideals. When are you going to acknowledge your original stance again, never? You've yet to answer my posts in regards to that.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
ArchonAlarion, you are talking about a broad range of subjects that are related to government. Okay, I think we are getting somewhere. You are saying that everything should be privatized and government should be eliminated. I suppose if you make a few assumptions, that could work. People would then have to rely on their own authority and not an external one.
Let me ask you this: Do you think people are ready to do that?
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Well, it appears most people here want to debate ideological stances now—which, unfortunately, I find incredibly boring and pointless. Sigh.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Nope, hence the memeing.
Its like religion. Really the state is most secure in the minds of its subjects. We could overthrow a government physically very easily. But like religion there is an entrenched quality to it. Most People believe we need a state monopoly and so we'll have one until they become a minority.
Technically Allie, The state is an imposition so the burdern of proof is on the statists to prove why the state is superior. But I get that people want points from anarchists too.
The word "anarchists" is an anti. I am against Rulers. So much of my argument will be anti this and that. Also the free market implies very little static structure so I can give broad outlines, but its up to individuals to decide what voluntary associations they wish to create. Its up to the consumers, which associations will be successful models.
I do not think we should have a "military." Im fine with private defense contractors who operate by the non-aggression principle or any voluntary collectives. Demands are supplied. If there is need for a large militaristic taskforce then one will be formed. If it is no longer demanded then it will lose funding and dissolve.
Obviously theres more to this, but its a start.
By entering into the military you are condoning its existence. How will that help bring about a better system?
And before anyone says it, I am not utopian. No world is perfect, but we can try for whats optimal.
The end is nigh