US Military Debate

[Jimbean]

This is a debate between Allie, Jessica, Archon Alarion, and whoever else. Fight nice.

[jessica129]

This is one discussion that really get's my blood boiling and I'm probobly going to say some things I don't mean so maybe I shouldn't even go there. I accept people have their views, but his mentality really pisses me off. Allie basically took the words out of my mouth and I thought her post in my military thread was right on.

[Mediator Kam]

The US military as a whole has done a lot of very, very criminal actions. My Lei, the Haditha massacre, the list goes on. But the thing was, those were either ordered massacres or those criminals who committed those atrocities do not represent the individual solider who goes in to see the world or get a free college education, or a plethora of other reasons. They're good people.

[ArchonAlarion]

Well im not just against the US military. I'm against the initiation of aggression. My position is that all human interactions should be voluntary, and when they aren't, the aggressed upon party has the right to protect themselves, others, property, etc.

Taxation is simply extortion on a grand scale. You dont like the mafia? Then why condone the most successful mafia, the state?

lmao, much laughs result:

PEOPLE ARE TOO STUPID TO MAKE RATIONAL DECISIONS.
SO WE SHOULD HAVE THOSE STUPID PEOPLE DECIDE WHICH STUPID PEOPLE
SHOULD TELL THE REST OF THE STUPID PEOPLE WHAT TO DO AT GUNPOINT.

We can begin there.

[Jimbean]

Like I have said before, I have always wanted military training, not that I look forward to killing people or anything, but I have for a long time wanted to be in the military. I am also a strong believer in having some kind of military force as to protect the country's sovereignty.

I delayed joining, and then I started to, in short, learn about the New World Order. Now I have decided not to join the military of this present government. Instead I protect the American people and our charter (the constitution) by preparing to save people against the real threat (the NWO).

[ArchonAlarion]

This is one discussion that really get's my blood boiling and I'm probobly going to say some things I don't mean so maybe I shouldn't even go there. I accept people have their views, but his mentality really pisses me off. Allie basically took the words out of my mouth and I thought her post in my military thread was right on.

Yeah idk, theft, murder, rape, etc. Those things get my blood boiling too.

Even when they're are commited by the men in funny hats.

[Lotus]

Hah, okay Jimbean.
Responding to his reply to me in the last thread:

http://the16types.info/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=128

I'm fine with defense. Defense is great.

Then why are you debating this? We need defense regardless of what system we're under. Why are you telling Jessica that she's stealing your money to kill people? I agree with her—I'm sure it's pretty fucking easy to say that in the comfort of your bedroom, preaching anarchism to a computer screen. Do we have that "ideal system" yet, Archon? No, we don't. But defense is a necessity, even if it has yet to be perfected.

[Jimbean]

The US military as a whole has done a lot of very, very criminal actions. My Lei, the Haditha massacre, the list goes on. But the thing was, those were either ordered massacres or those criminals who committed those atrocities do not represent the individual solider who goes in to see the world or get a free college education, or a plethora of other reasons. They're good people.

Most people are good people, despite the propaganda. But there are conditions that facilitate, and a chain of command that is probably more responsible.

[Jimbean]

Well im not just against the US military. I'm against the initiation of aggression. My position is that all human interactions should be voluntary, and when they aren't, the aggressed upon party has the right to protect themselves, others, property, etc.

Taxation is simply extortion on a grand scale. You dont like the mafia? Then why condone the most successful mafia, the state?

lmao, much laughs result:

PEOPLE ARE TOO STUPID TO MAKE RATIONAL DECISIONS.
SO WE SHOULD HAVE THOSE STUPID PEOPLE DECIDE WHICH STUPID PEOPLE
SHOULD TELL THE REST OF THE STUPID PEOPLE WHAT TO DO AT GUNPOINT.

We can begin there.

How old are you? Do you do anything about it or do you complain?

[ArchonAlarion]

i inform people for now. Its really all i can do.

I love the whole you can't support a position because you are young deal though.

Thats not a logical fallacy or anything.

I be 18 a couple of days ago

[Jimbean]

And let me say this:

This is not just some rosy debate that involves something purely theoretical. We are talking about life and death. So let's keep this tied only to facts.

But I'll go ahead and say something else, and that is the fact that governments historically have been the greatest threat to free people, and the number one unnatural killer throughout the 20th century has been the domestic actions of governments.

[ArchonAlarion]

And let me say this:

This is not just some rosy debate that involves something purely theoretical. We are talking about life and death. So let's keep this tied only to facts.

But I'll go ahead and say something else, and that is the fact that governments historically have been the greatest threat to free people, and the number one unnatural killer throughout the 20th century has been the domestic actions of governments.

I agree. Thats why I brought it up. Means alot to me and obviously everyone else.

The state is parasitic plain and simple. Its religion with a gun.

[Lotus]

I suppose you're just ignoring my response to you, then? Well, that says a lot.

[strrrng]

How old are you? Do you do anything about it or do you complain?

Thank you.

Archon, in this and the last thread, you haven't even said anything. What I mean is, you throw out these aimless criticisms of things based on premises that are far too ideological to be valuable, and harp on details which are too miniscule to be expounded upon. Once you can surmount petty context-shifting and logical fallacies, people will listen to what you say. But no one cares about a misguided pseudo-anarchist who doesn't even seem to know what he believes, yet tells others how they are wrong.

i inform people for now. Its really all i can do.

What about informing yourself? Self-appointed arbitration is bullshit. No one asked for a lesson on government.

[ArchonAlarion]

I suppose you're just ignoring my response to you, then? Well, that says a lot.

Heh?

I said im all for defense. The military not only is funded by aggression, but is used to aggress against other regions and also to threaten uprisings here.

So idk, what you mean.

I do not consider the military defense. It is more used against me than for me.

I support self defense, voluntary collective defense such as militias or private defense associations, etc.

[Lotus]

Heh?

I said im all for defense. The military not only is funded by aggression, but is used to aggress against other regions and also to threaten uprisings here.

So idk, what you mean.

You get so off-topic. Do you no longer stand by what you said in the previous thread?

Here was my last reply, since you seemed to not notice it:

Hah, okay Jimbean.
Responding to his reply to me in the last thread:

http://the16types.info/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=128

I'm fine with defense. Defense is great.

Then why are you debating this? We need defense regardless of what system we're under. Why are you telling Jessica that she's stealing your money to kill people? I agree with her—I'm sure it's pretty fucking easy to say that in the comfort of your bedroom, preaching anarchism to a computer screen. Do we have that "ideal system" yet, Archon? No, we don't. But defense is a necessity, even if it has yet to be perfected.

[strrrng]

I said im all for defense. The military not only is funded by aggression, but is used to aggress against other regions and also to threaten uprisings here.

Foolish. Go study some history, read the constitution, do something other than sit in your room and decry something which you don't even understand.

I do not consider the military defense. It is more used against me than for me.

You wouldn't be talking shit about it, if it hadn't helped you.

[Mediator Kam]

archron, if you want any chance of saving your dignity from now on, I advise you to take a break from the heat and think about your ideology and how you can enlighten us about your beliefs. I'm not being sarcastic.

[Jimbean]

Heh?

I said im all for defense. The military not only is funded by aggression, but is used to aggress against other regions and also to threaten uprisings here.

So idk, what you mean.

I do not consider the military defense. It is more used against me than for me.

I support self defense, voluntary collective defense such as militias or private defense associations, etc.

What about foreign operations? Say, if you are 100% sure that a foreign military will try to achieve an objective that is harmful to people here domestically, now do you wait for that army to attack on your territory with the initiative or do you strike first and have the initiative?

[ArchonAlarion]

You get so off-topic. Do you no longer stand by what you said in the previous thread?

Here was my last reply, since you seemed to not notice it:

Taxation:

If you do not give up your money to us then we will throw you in jail
If you dont come quietly we'll shoot you.

That is stealing.

Constitution:

Not a contractual obligation, not explicitly agreed to by those who fall under its domain. A contract is explicit and voluntary.

Military:
Yes I understand that once in a while the state will protect its livestock with its gunarm. So what?

[jessica129]

LSE 4w5 sp/sx

Wait, what?

[Mediator Kam]

I think a lot of you are judging him from too beta a standpoint. He may seem angsty and lazy, but that's because other quadras don't always demonstrate the seriousness of their commitments with direct action.

No, I agree with the others. Rhetoric doesn't cut it with something so important. Until he can produce some facts, I stand unimpressed.

[Mediator Kam]

I think the underlying facts may be a business oriented gamma view on life, and some indirect allusions to the military industrial complex which he hasn't bothered to mention.

I'm relatively well-versed in such things as the US government, but I want him to prove the robustness of his arguments and the robustness of his oratorical skills. He is talking about things that he should be able to back up with factual evidence, not a story about the "Gunarm and the Sheep". You hear this stuff 24/7 from people who want to change the world in very radical ways.

[Lotus]

Taxation:

If you do not give up your money to us then we will throw you in jail
If you dont come quietly we'll shoot you.

That is stealing.

Constitution:

Not a contractual obligation, not explicitly agreed to by those who fall under its domain. A contract is explicit and voluntary.

Military:
Yes I understand that once in a while the state will protect its livestock with its gunarm. So what?

You are missing the point. But fine, if you care more about not paying taxes than the defense of your loved ones, yourself, and your country; then I suppose this is an outrage to you. Just tell me, what's important to you—your life or your taxes? Let's not be petty here—it's not even about that, in all honesty. Ideally it wouldn't come from taxes, but in reality: it does. It's not perfect, but it's necessary for the time being. And to be clear, I'm not preaching "greater goods" because I don't believe in that. I'm referring to pragmatism.

Hopefully you understand the concept of survival. You work with what you have. I'm sorry that in circumstances of scarcity, the food you eat isn't gourmet—but it's better than starvation. And it's unfortunate that people have been killed in the process of self-defense, but it's better than getting killed yourself. You have to be pragmatic and work with what you have. I'm sorry that the reality of the circumstance doesn't fit your ideals, but we're not living by your standards. If you can't adapt to what's happening now and take action to improve the current status if it dissatisfies you, then no one's going to give a damn what you have to say. I certainly don't.

[redbaron]

Personally, I don't mind having an army as long as its prestigious like the army of the Roman empire or the Austrian empire and such, and the soldiers get to wear frilly uniforms. Also the officers should have those large moustaches.

hehe

[ArchonAlarion]

I think the underlying facts may be a business oriented gamma view on life, and some indirect allusions to the military industrial complex which he hasn't bothered to mention.

Its just there is a shitload of information and "facts" out there.

Im presenting principles sure. I can produce statistics and you can produce statistics and we can do it all day.

First tell me how my reasoning is faulty.

I mean its good to clarify positions and definitons first, right?

[Mediator Kam]

I mean its good to clarify positions and definitons first, right?

Yes, defend your position a little, for the sake of the nation.

[Jimbean]

Its just there is a shitload of information and "facts" out there.

Im presenting principles sure. I can produce statistics and you can produce statistics and we can do it all day.

I mean its good to clarify positions and definitons first, right?

You need to produce facts. I know it seems like we are all just picking on you, but you have to understand, and hopefully will, that facts are more important than any position you want to take.

First tell me how my reasoning is faulty.

First of all, and it could just be me, but I don't think it is valid to mix two seperate subjects together without any clarity. So far you talked about taxes and military strategy.

[MysticSonic]

The problem with the United States military is the degree to which its actions are completely unaccountable. The vastness of the U.S.'s military power and the construction of its hierarchy create an organization whom, throughout history, have performed various acts against humanity and have done many things not for the sake of our country, but for the higher ups whom pull the strings. Of course, one cannot have a functioning military that can defend your country without a little bit of corruption, but as it stands, the degree to which the U.S. military operates on its own accord and without concern for defense itself, but rather selfishly motivated goals disguised as such, is completely unacceptable and the structure itself needs a complete reorientation in a way that makes it only acceptable for it to exist for self-defense purposes. Yes, we need a military, but, no, the current one is not some icon of American greatness and a beacon of hope and democracy. It needs to change.

[Jimbean]

To be fair though, this is a debate about ideology. Archon's opponents haven't presented any really salient facts themselves short of reiterating their views and attacking his.

As far as I am debating him, it is about him producing facts or not. That is why I have been prodding him.

[ArchonAlarion]

uhg, I know im poorly representing my position.

maybe these videos will give you random points about Free market anarchism

Note, im kinda pickin shit at random they are not necessarily about the military.




(has other parts)





Thats a start I guess. Really just random stuff, sorry if you dont like it.

[munenori2]

After reading this, jimbean is fucking awesome.

[ArchonAlarion]

You are missing the point. But fine, if you care more about not paying taxes than the defense of your loved ones, yourself, and your country; then I suppose this is an outrage to you. Just tell me, what's important to you—your life or your taxes? Let's not be petty here—it's not even about that, in all honesty. Ideally it wouldn't come from taxes, but in reality: it does. It's not perfect, but it's necessary for the time being. And to be clear, I'm not preaching "greater goods" because I don't believe in that. I'm referring to pragmatism.

Hopefully you understand the concept of survival. You work with what you have. I'm sorry that in circumstances of scarcity, the food you eat isn't gourmet—but it's better than starvation. And it's unfortunate that people have been killed in the process of self-defense, but it's better than getting killed yourself. You have to be pragmatic and work with what you have. I'm sorry that the reality of the circumstance doesn't fit your ideals, but we're not living by your standards. If you can't adapt to what's happening now and take action to improve the current status if it dissatisfies you, then no one's going to give a damn what you have to say. I certainly don't.

I am acting by informing. Ideas are memes and im trying to help spread this one.

Do you want me to go and shoot my local statesman or something? We anarchists are not exactly a majority at the moment.

And I would posit that in the long run my family and friends would be better off without the state.

Maybe Im still missing your point.

[Jimbean]

After reading this, jimbean is fucking awesome.

Why thank you

[Lotus]

Maybe I'm still missing your point.

You are.

I am acting by informing. Ideas are memes and im trying to help spread this one.

Do you want me to go and shoot my local statesman or something? We anarchists are not exactly a majority at the moment.

And I would posit that in the long run my family and friends would be better off without the state.

Okay, I see that you're against a lot, but are you actually for anything? You're dissatisfied with the way things are right now, but it's obviously necessary until improvements are made. You keep diverging from your original stance:

"Thank you for accepting the money stolen from my family, friends, and everyone who fall within the borders of 'The United States of America' and using it to kill people."

I'll try being blatantly simple: Don't condemn Jessica's choice to serve in the U.S. Military with the reasoning of not being satisfied with the military system. Although far from ideal, it's still important. What alternative is there? To have none at all? This is my point.

Are you even living in the present right now? The world don't stop for you. If you're not happy with the current situation, you can't just put everything on pause to revise it and then press play again. You have to adapt to what's happening now and react to the current affairs—not your theoretical ideals. When are you going to acknowledge your original stance again, never? You've yet to answer my posts in regards to that.

[Jimbean]

ArchonAlarion, you are talking about a broad range of subjects that are related to government. Okay, I think we are getting somewhere. You are saying that everything should be privatized and government should be eliminated. I suppose if you make a few assumptions, that could work. People would then have to rely on their own authority and not an external one.

Let me ask you this: Do you think people are ready to do that?

[Lotus]

Well, it appears most people here want to debate ideological stances now—which, unfortunately, I find incredibly boring and pointless. Sigh.

[Jimbean]

Well, it appears most people here want to debate ideological stances now—which, unfortunately, I find incredibly boring and pointless. Sigh.

+10

[ArchonAlarion]

ArchonAlarion, you are talking about a broad range of subjects that are related to government. Okay, I think we are getting somewhere. You are saying that everything should be privatized and government should be eliminated. I suppose if you make a few assumptions, that could work. People would then have to rely on their own authority and not an external one.

Let me ask you this: Do you think people are ready to do that?

Nope, hence the memeing.

Its like religion. Really the state is most secure in the minds of its subjects. We could overthrow a government physically very easily. But like religion there is an entrenched quality to it. Most People believe we need a state monopoly and so we'll have one until they become a minority.


Technically Allie, The state is an imposition so the burdern of proof is on the statists to prove why the state is superior. But I get that people want points from anarchists too.

The word "anarchists" is an anti. I am against Rulers. So much of my argument will be anti this and that. Also the free market implies very little static structure so I can give broad outlines, but its up to individuals to decide what voluntary associations they wish to create. Its up to the consumers, which associations will be successful models.

I do not think we should have a "military." Im fine with private defense contractors who operate by the non-aggression principle or any voluntary collectives. Demands are supplied. If there is need for a large militaristic taskforce then one will be formed. If it is no longer demanded then it will lose funding and dissolve.

Obviously theres more to this, but its a start.

By entering into the military you are condoning its existence. How will that help bring about a better system?

And before anyone says it, I am not utopian. No world is perfect, but we can try for whats optimal.

[Mediator Kam]

Well, it appears most people here want to debate ideological stances now—which, unfortunately, I find incredibly boring and pointless. Sigh.

I can't believe I ever thought I was Alpha.

You were young and got caught up in something too big for you to understand.

it's called alfa