Faking emotion

[Rubicon]

What type do you think would be more inclined to be ok with faking the "correct" emotional response in order to achieve the results they wanted? Thinking in terms of the end justifying the means. I think it's between LSI and LIE ... maaabye LII.

[Gilly]

I'm up there. As long as I don't really have any serious investment in a person's life, I have no problems whatsoever being fake to get what I want from them. As far as I'm concerned, it's nothing more than a means to an end; if giving them a penny, or inserting a key into their forehead, or winding the spring on their back produced the same effect, I would do that instead. However, people seem to like being smiled at and told what they want to hear, so I do that.

[ScarlettLux]

I'm up there. As long as I don't really have any serious investment in a person's life, I have no problems whatsoever being fake to get what I want from them. As far as I'm concerned, it's nothing more than a means to an end; if giving them a penny, or inserting a key into their forehead, or winding the spring on their back produced the same effect, I would do that instead. However, people seem to like being smiled at and told what they want to hear, so I do that.

Really? I don't do that. Err... I think this is just a bad stereotype of EIEs, tbh. We don't fake emotion to "get what we want" -- I actually CAN'T do that AT ALL. My emotions are worn on my sleeve but only shown when they're real. Faking emotion is very difficult for me, and if this is something that is characteristic of EIE, Fe dominants, or just Fe ego in general... then I must not be. I can't be overly nice to new people, I'm just sort of chill.

I dunno man, don't you feel bad when you do this sort of thing?

[Lotus]

What type do you think would be more inclined to be ok with faking the "correct" emotional response in order to achieve the results they wanted? Thinking in terms of the end justifying the means. I think it's between LSI and LIE ... maaabye LII.

I can't even think of a situation where giving someone a "correct" emotional response gets me what I want. I've smiled when receiving shitty gifts during the holidays, but besides that, where do you use emotional displays to achieve things? (Well, that example doesn't actually achieve anything, it just keeps someone's feelings from getting hurt.) I don't get it, tbh.

Bleh. It's just kind of gross to play with someone's emotions, regardless.

[Rubicon]

I was thinking more in terms of adopting a demeanour that works to your benefit (considering the situation) rather than blatant emotional displays. Like trying to look humble and contrite (though you don't feel that way) so as to get leniency shown you. The person I'm thinking of thinks in terms of it being something that you'd be stupid not to do - like you wouldn't really be using all the resources at your disposal if you didn't.

[redbaron]

I think my LII friend "fakes" emotional responses, not to manipulate others, but just because she knows that's what's expected and is trying not to let other people down.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

What type do you think would be more inclined to be ok with faking the "correct" emotional response in order to achieve the results they wanted? Thinking in terms of the end justifying the means. I think it's between LSI and LIE ... maaabye LII.

I would say Fe types in general. They would not term it so, but that is the essence of emotional manipulation. For example, an actor in a tragedy conveys sadness and grief, himself may even feel sad and grieving, but it is an act and not genuine. Alpha SFs, I think, mostly overreact and intensify their emotions past the point of their actual effect, while feeling "fake" emotions takes a back seat. Keeping with the example, grieving really serves no purpose, but an Fe type may feel that showing grief is better than not showing it and others showing grief is an indicator of their feelings. In this instance, the Fe type would create an air of grieving by grieving themselves, when they may not necessarily feel as sad as they convey.

Te types can do this to a limited extent. Ti types are receptive to emotional manipulation and may engage in more lighthearted forms of it, as fits their whims.

[Gilly]

Really? I don't do that. Err... I think this is just a bad stereotype of EIEs, tbh. We don't fake emotion to "get what we want" -- I actually CAN'T do that AT ALL. My emotions are worn on my sleeve but only shown when they're real. Faking emotion is very difficult for me, and if this is something that is characteristic of EIE, Fe dominants, or just Fe ego in general... then I must not be. I can't be overly nice to new people, I'm just sort of chill.

I dunno man, don't you feel bad when you do this sort of thing?

I used to be like that, but, being a guy, I was thoroughly discouraged by my peers from being openly emotional or forthright about my true feelings. Naturally I am a bit temperamental, but mostly pretty laid back. But through pressure I have come to be able to appear just about however I want. Granted I have come to learn a lot about what it means to have an external locus of control, so I avoid doing it unless the benefit for me is clear.

I don't feel bad about it at all. I know that most people would do the same thing to me without a second thought, if they were as efficient a liars as I am, so the way I see it, unless I am betraying or manipulating someone I care about, there's no reason to feel bad. Generally I can tell when someone is naive or genuinely kind, in which case I avoid this kind of behavior, but with most people, I don't even think twice about it.

I can't even think of a situation where giving someone a "correct" emotional response gets me what I want. I've smiled when receiving shitty gifts during the holidays, but besides that, where do you use emotional displays to achieve things? (Well, that example doesn't actually achieve anything, it just keeps someone's feelings from getting hurt.) I don't get it, tbh.

Example: When I quit my job recently, my boss offered me a job in the sales division of his coffee company because I am good with people and have ingratiated myself with him. It's a big promotion, and if I didn't know how to fake emotions, I would be starting a new job for less money than I was making before I quit; now I am going to have a job that is easier for me, I don't have to go on a stressful job search, I have the chance to deepen my connections with people who are influential in my community, and to top it off I'll be making significantly more money than before.

[Gilly]

I was thinking more in terms of adopting a demeanour that works to your benefit (considering the situation) rather than blatant emotional displays. Like trying to look humble and contrite (though you don't feel that way) so as to get leniency shown you.

Right. Usually it takes a lot more than just pretending to be happy or sad.

The person I'm thinking of thinks in terms of it being something that you'd be stupid not to do - like you wouldn't really be using all the resources at your disposal if you didn't.

That is exactly how I see it.

[redbaron]

Keeping with the example, grieving really serves no purpose, but an Fe type may feel that showing grief is better than not showing it and others showing grief is an indicator of their feelings. In this instance, the Fe type would create an air of grieving by grieving themselves, when they may not necessarily feel as sad as they convey.

wrong. but people grieve in different ways.

[Rubicon]

I would say Fe types in general. They would not term it so, but that is the essence of emotional manipulation. For example, an actor in a tragedy conveys sadness and grief, himself may even feel sad and grieving, but it is an act and not genuine. Alpha SFs, I think, mostly overreact and intensify their emotions past the point of their actual effect, while feeling "fake" emotions takes a back seat. Keeping with the example, grieving really serves no purpose, but an Fe type may feel that showing grief is better than not showing it and others showing grief is an indicator of their feelings. In this instance, the Fe type would create an air of grieving by grieving themselves, when they may not necessarily feel as sad as they convey.

I don't relate to your generalisation about Alpha SFs. In fact, I generally show more emotion in reaction to things when I'm by myself than with people. lol I'm usually dampening my emotions down, not trying to intensify them. Especially in grieving situations. I don't think it's as much a conscious choice to display emotion as you think ... more that it would feel uncomfortable/ unnatural not to display it.

[Wynch]

I don't relate to your generalisation about Alpha SFs. In fact, I generally show more emotion in reaction to things when I'm by myself than with people. lol I'm usually dampening my emotions down, not trying to intensify them. Especially in grieving situations. I don't think it's as much a conscious choice to display emotion as you think ... more that it would feel uncomfortable/ unnatural not to display it.

I don't agree with his assessment of Alpha SFs either. Most of the Alpha SFs I know are a little shy to share their feelings openly with people. One of my friends explained to me that it was because their feelings were a very intimate thing for them and they didn't want to share them with just anyone.

I fake a lot of emotions, that's for sure. Partially to respond how I think I'm supposed to respond, but definitely to satisfy my needs as well. If I need something from someone I have no qualms with faking the emotions they want in order to get what I want out of them. As long as I feel that doing so will not damage them in the long run.

[Gilly]

I think emotional manipulation/faking is a learned skill, unrelated to type. Perhaps Fe types are noted for being most effective at it, because they are naturally attentive to the nuances of emotions, both in themselves and others, but people of all types do it, and everyone on earth is capable of it.

[krieger]

I think this may have something to do with how "Accepting Thinking" (xTxj) is refered to as "emotion creating"... A bit of a paradoxical mix of logic and emotion; controlling and powerful but still capable of social manouvering...

I don't think ISFps, for instance, are good emotional manipulators. They are just about the most naive and un-controlling type in the socion. ESFjs seem pretty genuine to me, too... To say that these types fake their emotions is probably just the result of expecting the wrong kind of emotional activity in them...

Accepting T: Thinking and Emotion-Creating - involve emotional considerations into your thinking; to upset people is a stupid thing to do from the practical point of view
Creating T: Thinking and Construct-Creating - blunt logic: say what you think and don't anticipate the emotional reaction
Accepting F: Feeling and Construct-Creating - emotional involvement in the practical situation; if things go awry in practice this is a reason for emotional concern
Creating F: Feeling and Emotion-Creating - stay true to your feelings no matter how much it messes up the practical situation

I've heard about Result-Process playing a part in this too, though.

Result: Positive Dynamics, Negative Statics
Process: Negative Dynamics, Positive Statics

Dynamics concerns the superficialities of behavior, Statics the deeper reason behind things. So Results superficially appear positive and are negative behind the screens. Process types are the opposite.

So that makes Result the manipulators, and Process the genuine people.

[Gilly]

labcoat, that is total bullshit. Stop using the Reinin dichotomies where they don't apply in order to make it look like you understand Socionics.

[Lotus]

Example: When I quit my job recently, my boss offered me a job in the sales division of his coffee company because I am good with people and have ingratiated myself with him. It's a big promotion, and if I didn't know how to fake emotions, I would be starting a new job for less money than I was making before I quit; now I am going to have a job that is easier for me, I don't have to go on a stressful job search, I have the chance to deepen my connections with people who are influential in my community, and to top it off I'll be making significantly more money than before.

Oh, okay. To me, that would be extremely draining.

When I was fourteen I got my first job at a pub, working some shifts as a hostess and others as an expedite/food-runner. I was a shitty hostess. Even though the job was much easier and you didn't have to work as much, I preferred being a runner. When you hostess you have to deal with customers all the time, as well as pissy waitresses competing for the most tables. Bleh, I can't handle people bitching at me over petty shit for an entire shift. Expo/food-running means you need to be fast on your feet, organized, good at timing, able to balance up to seven entrees, and you cannot be lazy—since you're basically the extra pair of feet for whoever needs you. I'd rather work my ass off than deal with people for hours.

I guess I just have more physical energy than emotional energy.

[Gilly]

To be honest, I'm the same way. If I had to choose between, say, lifting boxes or working a cash register for the same pay and the same hours, I would rather lift the boxes. However under the right circumstances, a little bit of fakeness can go a long way. I don't feel rewarded by lying or being fake (unless it's something like talking to a cop, in which case it can be a rush), but I'd also feel like I wasn't taking advantage of all of my abilities if I didn't do it when I knew it could benefit me.

[implied]

labcoat, that is total bullshit. Stop using the Reinin dichotomies where they don't apply in order to make it look like you understand Socionics.

So Results superficially appear positive and are negative behind the screens. Process types are the opposite.

even though i am not just real bonkers about reinin, that at least superficially seems to make some marginal sense. there are definitely types that are more inclined to at least publically, or for a while, come off as artificially happy/polite/controlled.


fwiw, i have a horrible time "faking emotions" and consider it nearly impossible. to the point that i may sometimes actually try to do this and fail miserably.

[Gilly]

even though i am not just real bonkers about reinin, that at least superficially seems to make some marginal sense. there are definitely types that are more inclined to at least publically, or for a while, come off as artificially happy/polite/controlled.

It's not implausible, but it's also not directly deductible from the nature of the dichotomies like labcoat is trying to make it seem. In short, he's bullshitting.

[krieger]

The stuff is there in case someone looks at it and things it makes sense, and then finds out they can understand things better that they have seen in real life. I'm not forcing anyone to accept it, so I don't see what could possibly be the problem with posting my views.

I also don't claim that any of this is direct deduction. They are my own assumptions, my own views, derived from my own experience.

[Gilly]

I'm just saying, I think it's total bullshit. That's my opinion of your opinion.

[Lotus]

To be honest, I'm the same way. If I had to choose between, say, lifting boxes or working a cash register for the same pay and the same hours, I would rather lift the boxes. However under the right circumstances, a little bit of fakeness can go a long way. I don't feel rewarded by lying or being fake (unless it's something like talking to a cop, in which case it can be a rush), but I'd also feel like I wasn't taking advantage of all of my abilities if I didn't do it when I knew it could benefit me.

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. Like at my last job as a "rocker" at Hard Rock Park, where the younger, more energetic people got to work in front of the venue—serving food and drinks on 1950's roller-skates during concerts. The dead-looking people get sent to set up the food/drinks in front of the kitchen line.

Basically, if you look "I hate my job" miserable, (or you're old, out of shape, etc.) you're in the back. If you can appear secure on skates while smiling and laughing with tourists, you get paid to ride around at night through crowds in front of an amphitheater. I so wasn't going to spend my summer hanging around a kitchen, where you have to stand in one spot for an entire shift. Smile, make the people around you feel like you're on vacation with them, give them their drinks and skate away. It's not that hard and it makes your summer a lot less miserable.

[intjguy]

Sometimes I grin when I'm feeling nothing because people tell me my face is naturally antisocial and I always look pissed off. Heh.

[munenori2]

Depends on what kind of emotion I'm trying to fake. I'd say I have decent emotional control but I don't fake what I'm feeling, and I'm not necessarily a pro at it. I think I'm very good at reading fake energy, though. It's usually easy to tell if people are bullshitting you or not based on their gestures.

I'm probably one of the worst liars around; people will tell me this all the time. I simply cannot get over the guilt of my actions to keep a straight face, so I generally don't do it, ever. I'm a bad salesperson because of this.

I've always had a more stoic nature. I remember on my 17 birthday my friends threw me a surprise party. Everyone told me that when I walked in the door my face was completely blank and my expression was dry. I found this interesting, because I really was surprised, happy, and thankful, yet I did not act ecstatic like a flaming idiot. I would choose to view that as good emotional control rather than faking my emotions, which I clearly did not do.

I liked this response the best. I'm definitely more of an emotional dampener than openly expressive as well.

I doubt I'm even good at reading fake energy like that though. I've got this tendency to think people are being sincere with me, and I can be somewhat slow on the take a lot of the time.

[Mediator Kam]

I can definitely feel when people are being fake with me, but I don't have the nerve to say anything.

And I doubt I have ever "faked emotion" to get anywhere, although I'll smile and thank a army recruiter to get him away from me.

[implied]

I liked this response the best. I'm definitely more of an emotional dampener than openly expressive as well.

I doubt I'm even good at reading fake energy like that though. I've got this tendency to think people are being sincere with me, and I can be somewhat slow on the take a lot of the time.

same here.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I'm more honestly emotional than fake, as I'm clearly emotional and kinda typical writer-speak, the kind of deliberate overly introverted voice. So, I uh - kinda bring it out in people that way.

I pretty much thrive in areas where the people are public intellectuals.... on the streets I mean, not locked away in institutions.

If I have to fake it though, I do - it fools stupid people anyway, and that's all who it needs to fool. If you are being though like 'OMG UR BEING FAAAKE' like an insecure teenage girl that writes too much in her journal.... I don't know what to say to you yet. I get your point, but you need to realize how the world actually works a bit better, that you can't just have all that stuff.... that you want, all at once.

[FDG]

I generally try to hide it if I am sad or preoccupied, so in this sense I can "fake emotions", but I don't (and generally, am not able to, in the sense that I'd have no clue how to do it) do it to achieve a specific result, except the one of not burdening the environment with a concern of mine.

[Park]

I think most every type can do this. I don't like it, but I've done it when the goal I'd wanted to achieve has been important to me. Aside from "faking" emotions, I tend to not have a tendency to express them much either, sort of naturally hiding them from the surface (and avoid using them as a tool for acquiring something). With people I care about though, I am often too sincere about almost everything, even at my own loss.

[krieger]

I've heard about Result-Process playing a part in this too, though.

Result: Positive Dynamics, Negative Statics
Process: Negative Dynamics, Positive Statics

Dynamics concerns the superficialities of behavior, Statics the deeper reason behind things. So Results superficially appear positive and are negative behind the screens. Process types are the opposite.

So that makes Result the manipulators, and Process the genuine people.

Since my last post attracted some scepticism, here is Gulenko attributing social artificiality to Result in his Forms of Thinking article:

3.2. Social level.
A difference in these approaches in the social plan can be formulated as alternative pair naturalness/artificiality. By naturalness I will understand [prirodosoobraznost] - such behavior, which is encountered in living nature. Artificiality - such behavior, which it is accepted in the society. For example, in nature acts the law of the survival of the strong, whereas in the society the protection and the tarry of weak is cultivated.
Different relation to the people of near or far circle results from this. In the life evolutionary types much larger role plays the reputation. The opinion of those surrounding, external society proves to be for them much more meant than the opinion of close ones. [Involyutory] they depend less on social control. They are good-natured with respect to the people of their neighbor circle of contact, whose opinion they consider in the larger measure than public approval or reprimand.
[u] [involyutorov] habit is encountered to sharply roll up conversation. It is not simple to break contact, namely to roll up, rapidly to conclude, summing up the aforesaid. They also can suddenly be deflected to the side, and then again return to the discussed theme. Right types can perceive this manner as tactlessness, [nezainteresovannost] or unique demonstration of offence.

Evolution = result
Involution = process

And smilingeyes interpretation of said passage:

Socially:
Process: Tactless. Natural, anti-social. Less caring of the general opinion, more caring of that of close ones. (again, not fully agreeing with this)
Result: Tactful. Artificial, social. More caring of general opinion, less of that of close ones. (again, not fully agreeing with this)

[Gilly]

I'm sorry, but that all sounds like complete bullshit. Notice that even smilex is skeptical.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Hmm. I can't hide my negative emotional states too well. I think I can, but people always notice.

[redbaron]

Ben? I'm thinking LIE.

[redbaron]

I'm thinking that show is awash in Se and Fi themes. Ben seems almost like the ideal enemy in such a situation; perhaps the dual is truly the most revered enemy. Such a character is able to create the mixed terror and fascination that create the greatest adversaries.

I like this show, but often get frustrated watching it, and I notice my response is the same as my husband's: "Just *@&#$ shoot him already!"

I agree. I really like it too and find Ben fascinating but I've often had the same thought.

[07490]

Really? I don't do that. Err... I think this is just a bad stereotype of EIEs, tbh. We don't fake emotion to "get what we want" -- I actually CAN'T do that AT ALL. My emotions are worn on my sleeve but only shown when they're real. Faking emotion is very difficult for me, and if this is something that is characteristic of EIE, Fe dominants, or just Fe ego in general... then I must not be. I can't be overly nice to new people, I'm just sort of chill.

I dunno man, don't you feel bad when you do this sort of thing?

ScareletLux I agree.

[krieger]

Ben? I'm thinking LIE.

I agree... LII or EIE secundarily. His childhood self was protrayed as very introverted (quiet, untalkative)... Not sure what to make of that.

[implied]

what jem is referring to is a quality of a type that i do not really care for. "fake emotions" or "fake responses" piss me off more than anything.

[07490]

what jem is referring to is a quality of a type that i do not really care for. "fake emotions" or "fake responses" piss me off more than anything.

What about deep, real GEniue strong emotions?

[implied]

What about deep, real GEniue strong emotions?

you're not my dual.

[07490]

you're not my dual.

I didn't say that, but powerful emotions needs to be geniue, and at times I wonder if that had what kind of impact toward my ILI friends.