Beta Vs Delta Social Roles

[leftylib]

While Deltas store traditional information like religion, familial traditions, patriotism, story telling, fantasy, psychology and they maybe sort of create a parimiter for all the other types.

Where as Betas serve the essential function of allowing new information. I think of us as being wedged between alpha and gamma and so aware of alpha new ideas about science or technology and overall imperatives for the human race, and we can interact somewhat closely with gammas who are good at networking so we can start the spread of progressive ideas by drawing from alpha and feeding into gamma. which in turn and over time can hopefully be incorporated into delta wisdom...because the longer an idea is held as truth in society the more it will have a chance, i guess, of being picked up by delta and thought of as normal.

Deltas may be willing to encorporate those new ideas into their lives, but betas i think want to be more at the end of deciphering and or endorsing things or for lack of a better word attacking them.

Leading on I think gammas can be much more socially adept and effective, but that they also can be ellitest...and that if gamma pairs up with delta energy or ideals to the exclusion of beta input that we start to see a lot of unethical behavior.

A final note: I think a lot of beta energy ... for me anyway is spent figuring out what we believe in. we can be skeptical and not as steeped in indoctrination and i think the quadrant probably spends a lot of time in overal social ways and personal ways helping to inform eachother what ideas are important to accept.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

While Deltas store traditional information like religion, familial traditions, patriotism, story telling, fantasy, psychology and they maybe sort of create a parimiter for all the other types.

Where did you come up with this? Familial traditions are Fi, but they are more Gamma than Delta, I would say. Religion is not Delta at all. Neither is story telling, fantasy or patriotism. You could say Delta NFs are naturally good at reading people and helping them, but I still think the field of psychology as a more having to do with Ti.

A final note: I think a lot of beta energy ... for me anyway is spent figuring out what we believe in. we can be skeptical and not as steeped in indoctrination and i think the quadrant probably spends a lot of time in overal social ways and personal ways helping to inform eachother what ideas are important to accept.

Not to burst your bubble, but Betas are the quadra of indoctrination. Betas can be skeptical about whether the lives they are leading are meaningful in an ideological way, but a Beta will ultimately choose an ideology and try to stick to it. Beta are confusing in the quadra sense as they oftentimes disagree, argue, and clash with one another due to disagreements in what they believe. For a Beta group, unity of belief and a common vision between all members is what is important.

[07490]

While Deltas store traditional information like religion, familial traditions, patriotism, story telling, fantasy, psychology and they maybe sort of create a parimiter for all the other types.

Where as Betas serve the essential function of allowing new information. I think of us as being wedged between alpha and gamma and so aware of alpha new ideas about science or technology and overall imperatives for the human race, and we can interact somewhat closely with gammas who are good at networking so we can start the spread of progressive ideas by drawing from alpha and feeding into gamma. which in turn and over time can hopefully be incorporated into delta wisdom...because the longer an idea is held as truth in society the more it will have a chance, i guess, of being picked up by delta and thought of as normal.

Deltas may be willing to encorporate those new ideas into their lives, but betas i think want to be more at the end of deciphering and or endorsing things or for lack of a better word attacking them.

Leading on I think gammas can be much more socially adept and effective, but that they also can be ellitest...and that if gamma pairs up with delta energy or ideals to the exclusion of beta input that we start to see a lot of unethical behavior.

A final note: I think a lot of beta energy ... for me anyway is spent figuring out what we believe in. we can be skeptical and not as steeped in indoctrination and i think the quadrant probably spends a lot of time in overal social ways and personal ways helping to inform eachother what ideas are important to accept.

have you observed this behavior patterens frequently? I do agree that there is a transformation of ideas from inter-quardra relations. I think the relationship whose most affected by this is benefit relations. ideas get transfer easily if the relationship is developed more closer between benefactor and beneficary.

[lefty]

Where did you come up with this? Familial traditions are Fi, but they are more Gamma than Delta, I would say. Religion is not Delta at all. Neither is story telling, fantasy or patriotism. You could say Delta NFs are naturally good at reading people and helping them, but I still think the field of psychology as a more having to do with Ti.

Not to burst your bubble, but Betas are the quadra of indoctrination. Betas can be skeptical about whether the lives they are leading are meaningful in an ideological way, but a Beta will ultimately choose an ideology and try to stick to it. Beta are confusing in the quadra sense as they oftentimes disagree, argue, and clash with one another due to disagreements in what they believe. For a Beta group, unity of belief and a common vision between all members is what is important.

you've got it completely backwards. deltas are all about indoctrination. enfp is sometimes called the religious personality type. fantasy is a big part of NFs lives in the delta quadrant. at least the INFJ. Patriotism...very ISTP. the enfp is sometimse called the psychologist and infjs are natural counselors and therapists.

Betas will accept secular ideas - can be humanistic without being dogmatic. they're into the ethical imperatives regardless of group affilitation whereas deltas will demand group aflliliation and probably shun new concepts to some degree...Or at least favor group affiliation.

[lefty]

have you observed this behavior patterens frequently? I do agree that there is a transformation of ideas from inter-quardra relations. I think the relationship whose most affected by this is benefit relations. ideas get transfer easily if the relationship is developed more closer between benefactor and beneficary.

i haven't really thought about that. sometimes i think beneficiary relationships result in an imabalance of one taking too much for the other. but i could see what youre saying especially in case of ENFJs since our beneficiaries ENTPs are such brainiacs. so in the context of your own beneficiary relationship that's very true. An example might be oprah with her dr. guests. In other cases I can see an example of ENFJ conscientiousness benefitting a performer like angelina jolie and brad pitt they've kind of become hollywood sweethearts like in the olden days taking on roles an enfj would advocate, but an example of them being enabled is they've had three children and may have more...how many children should one couple have? its generally thought to be responsible to have no more than 2 children granted she's probably using hormones or something.

when iworked for this company i definitly benefitted an esfp salesperson, but she was also unmotivated and ended up getting fired. the intp boss stepped in to sever the enabling factors of the relationship.

And i've had great entp bosses who weren't in touch enough with the inner workings of their business to really be effective.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

you've got it completely backwards. deltas are all about indoctrination. enfp is sometimes called the religious personality type. fantasy is a big part of NFs lives in the delta quadrant. at least the INFJ. Patriotism...very ISTP. the enfp is sometimse called the psychologist and infjs are natural counselors and therapists.

Betas will accept secular ideas - can be humanistic without being dogmatic. they're into the ethical imperatives regardless of group affilitation whereas deltas will demand group aflliliation and probably shun new concepts to some degree...Or at least favor group affiliation.

Deltas are the individualistic quadra. Betas demand group loyalty. In socionics, ISTps greatly avoid being part of a group or a movement. They dislike being labeled. I do not know what made you think of IEEs as religious. There are many more religious types (just about every Ij temperament is more prone to religiosity than an IEE).

Delta STs dislike fantasy. Delta authors (both ST and NF) write stories that reflect reality or are about something they personally experienced. EIIs Dostoevsky and Solzhenitsyn wrote almost exclusively from experience or current events of their time. IEE Mark Twain's stories are set in places where he grew up and lived. LSE Conan Doyle set his stories in the England of his times.

You really flipped Beta and Delta around. Deltas do not avoid new concepts unless they are concepts that they feel will violate their Si or Fi way of life. They are not dogmatic at all; a group of Deltas lacks common unifying themes, ideologies, can perhaps have a common goal, if not meant exclusively for relaxation.

[Simon Ssmall]

you've got it completely backwards. deltas are all about indoctrination. enfp is sometimes called the religious personality type. fantasy is a big part of NFs lives in the delta quadrant. at least the INFJ. Patriotism...very ISTP. the enfp is sometimse called the psychologist and infjs are natural counselors and therapists.

Im not religious at all. I find most religions humorous with all their rules and regulations (no offence to religious people, its my personal opinion) in what you should do to be a true "believer". Some INFj I know are religious though, dont know of any ENFp's who are. I'm not sure what you refer to as Fantasy either. I don't really like when my INFp friend goes babling about spiritual stuff too much also (some is ok but its the only thing he talks about and I find it annoying). I mean Indoctrination is also very far from me or where I would want to be, the word itself makes me frown.

What being psichologist/counselor has to do with indoctrination, fantasy, patriotism or group mentality? So i'm unaware what you had in mind with the last sentence which is true.

If what you wrote is true then I'm not Delta and I would not want to be. But that's the first time i read something like this, neither it fits for people I know.

[UDP]

While Deltas store traditional information like religion, familial traditions, patriotism, story telling, fantasy, psychology and they maybe sort of create a parimiter for all the other types.

Where as Betas serve the essential function of allowing new information. I think of us as being wedged between alpha and gamma and so aware of alpha new ideas about science or technology and overall imperatives for the human race

I disagree with most of that... I think it is somewhat subjective in terms of where you are coming from and what you grew up in.

My beta side of the family is ALL about having traditions, being patriotic, and adhering to a certain religion. It's what "they do". Some of them (NFs) particularly like psychology and their fantasies.

I do think betas are generally open to new ideas, almost to the point of fickleness or unnecessary rebellion at times (when negative). And I can see how deltas would appear much less "resistant to change"

There are some articles about "quadra roles in society" if you are interested in reading them. Look in the Articles section.

One of the articles talks along similar lines to what you are getting at.

[iAnnAu]

you've got it completely backwards. deltas are all about indoctrination. enfp is sometimes called the religious personality type. fantasy is a big part of NFs lives in the delta quadrant. at least the INFJ. Patriotism...very ISTP. the enfp is sometimse called the psychologist and infjs are natural counselors and therapists.

Betas will accept secular ideas - can be humanistic without being dogmatic. they're into the ethical imperatives regardless of group affilitation whereas deltas will demand group aflliliation and probably shun new concepts to some degree...Or at least favor group affiliation.

Um, No. Better would be: Skepticism ... very ISTp. Patriotism demands blind obedience to authority. While my attitude by itself could be anomalous, I've actually read about this in multiple type descriptions as well as in the posts of other SLIs.

You've received disagreement on your views on quadra attitudes from several posters at this point. While I don't have strong views on these broader abstractions myself, I hope you'll go back, read some more, and reevaluate.

[xyz]

Um, No. Better would be: Skepticism ... very ISTp. Patriotism demands blind obedience to authority. While my attitude by itself could be anomalous, I've actually read about this in multiple type descriptions as well as in the posts of other SLIs.

You've received disagreement on your views on quadra attitudes from several posters at this point. While I don't have strong views on these broader abstractions myself, I hope you'll go back, read some more, and reevaluate.

I must agree with Anna on this one. I've I had to sum myself up in one word, I know most people wouldn't really be able to, but I'd say Skeptic would definitely fit just peachy. I do not feel Patriotism is "very ISTP" at all. At least, if we're all agreeing to what being an ISTp is.

[Creepy-]

I must agree with Anna on this one. I've I had to sum myself up in one word, I know most people wouldn't really be able to, but I'd say Skeptic would definitely fit just peachy. I do not feel Patriotism is "very ISTP" at all. At least, if we're all agreeing to what being an ISTp is.

+1

And I also hate being labeled - even labeling myself ISTp on the forum seems to come with expectations or assumptions of "who I must be" that I don't exactly relish. Even when labels are handy, I generally dislike the assumptions they sometimes inspire people to make.

[tiny_dancer]

LOL Yeah, when I was interviewed for an SLI friend's security clearance they asked if I would describe her as 'patriotic' and for the slightest split second I thought to myself, "Um... define 'patriotic'..." But I knew they wouldn't understand her attitude at all (like many Americans wouldn't), so I said, "Yes, of course."

[jessica129]

+1

And I also hate being labeled - even labeling myself ISTp on the forum seems to come with expectations or assumptions of "who I must be" that I don't exactly relish. Even when labels are handy, I generally dislike the assumptions they sometimes inspire people to make.

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of it either. Each day I debate deleting my signature.

[xyz]

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of it either. Each day I debate deleting my signature.

It's kind of why I've never stated my "type" in my signature. Actually, there are lots of reasons for that.

[lefty]

It's kind of why I've never stated my "type" in my signature. Actually, there are lots of reasons for that.

It really bothers me when people don't have their type listed in their profile, because then I have difficulty putting their perspective into the context of their type. So cheers to all who include it.


I've seen ISTP correlated with "anti-social" tendancies. I just think of them as being proud to be an american, sucepptable to affilitions in racist groups, the NRA, Nascar, if you dont like our country leave...etc. They do pair with the religious personality type/reporter/vigilant - maybe being somewhat anti-social compliments the ENFP verocity for affiliations? ENFPs are paranoid and dont like intimacy, i've read...It compliments them in this way, too.

In anycase I really think patritoism can't be passed off to Betas. Maybe the ESTJ is more likely the type.

Anywho...I still get the feeling its very much a gamma - delta thing.

[lefty]

Deltas are the individualistic quadra. Betas demand group loyalty. In socionics, ISTps greatly avoid being part of a group or a movement. They dislike being labeled. I do not know what made you think of IEEs as religious. There are many more religious types (just about every Ij temperament is more prone to religiosity than an IEE).

Delta STs dislike fantasy. Delta authors (both ST and NF) write stories that reflect reality or are about something they personally experienced. EIIs Dostoevsky and Solzhenitsyn wrote almost exclusively from experience or current events of their time. IEE Mark Twain's stories are set in places where he grew up and lived. LSE Conan Doyle set his stories in the England of his times.

You really flipped Beta and Delta around. Deltas do not avoid new concepts unless they are concepts that they feel will violate their Si or Fi way of life. They are not dogmatic at all; a group of Deltas lacks common unifying themes, ideologies, can perhaps have a common goal, if not meant exclusively for relaxation.

That's funny I really think Betas are more individualistic. We'll strike out and accept ideas that aren't traditional. We change to adapt to what is seen as an imperative for the betterment of the species and we're not locked down by tradition. I think we can be quite the loners, too. I think of gamma - delta being way more the cheerleaders of society.

Deltas are the religious quadrant in my opinion. Dostoevsky I think of as an ISFP. Mark Twain I suspect possibly one, too, but dont know. Conan Doyle...dunno.

They're unifying principles are ... Individualism, god, love of country, shunning foreigners, vigliance and paranoia, supervision ... they might be very autonomous, but i think they favor belonging to sort of balance it out. And to know who to trust and who to alienate.

I really do think people are confused about it. And that things like that lead to the absurd accusation that ****** was a beta which for sure he wasn't.

[xyz]

It really bothers me when people don't have their type listed in their profile, because then I have difficulty putting their perspective into the context of their type. So cheers to all who include it.

And it bothers ME that you're so eager to assign a perspective.

The perspective is ME, and that's all you should ever need.


Edit:

I've seen ISTP correlated with "anti-social" tendancies. I just think of them as being proud to be an american, sucepptable to affilitions in racist groups, the NRA, Nascar, if you dont like our country leave...etc.

I AM proud to be an american, especially recently. We're not a perfect country, but I am very proud to be an American. I honestly don't know where the hell you're getting the "sucepptable to affilitions in racist groups" data from, sir, because you are very much mistaken.

And yes, if you don't like our country, you have the right to get the hell out.

[iAnnAu]

That's funny I really think Betas are more individualistic. We'll strike out and accept ideas that aren't traditional. We change to adapt to what is seen as an imperative for the betterment of the species and we're not locked down by tradition. I think we can be quite the loners, too. I think of gamma - delta being way more the cheerleaders of society.

Deltas are the religious quadrant in my opinion. Dostoevsky I think of as an ISFP. Mark Twain I suspect possibly one, too, but dont know. Conan Doyle...dunno.

They're unifying principles are ... Individualism, god, love of country, shunning foreigners, vigliance and paranoia, supervision ... they might be very autonomous, but i think they favor belonging to sort of balance it out. And to know who to trust and who to alienate.

I really do think people are confused about it. And that things like that lead to the absurd accusation that ****** was a beta which for sure he wasn't.

Sooo ... instead of attributing YOUR values to the quadra you think you belong to, why don't you attribute them to YOURSELF and stop proclaiming that quadra values "are" a certain way that completely contradicts the majority of descriptions.

You're also just making a bunch of proclamations without explaining yourself. OK, you don't think ****** was beta. WHY. "for sure he wasn't" don't fucking cut it. Where are you getting the information from which you draw these conclusions?

[Simon Ssmall]

Id imagine "if you dont like the country then leave" attitude has less to do with patriotism and more with "if you have a problem either solve it or stop whining". That doesnt say ISTp's cant be patriotic, i dont think it is type related.

Betas are more to accept change, id agree with that but ultimately they want the group to accept the change while deltas id imagine couldn't care less about what group accepts and what not although be way less prone to accepting change. So what sounds more like individuality for you? Guess thats where the difference appears. Something new doesn't strike me as individuality. Something each person accepts for himself be it old or new, sounds like individuality for me. It can be different for you, guess it is a matter of perception and your position.

[UDP]

I must agree with Anna on this one. I've I had to sum myself up in one word, I know most people wouldn't really be able to, but I'd say Skeptic would definitely fit just peachy. I do not feel Patriotism is "very ISTP" at all. At least, if we're all agreeing to what being an ISTp is.

This looks like another case of someone not realizing that their own personal values and beliefs are different from socionics.

I kind of see that comment deriving from "betas are cool, and liberal", therefore, "deltas are conservative, and patriotic, and bad"

I could see ESTjs being more generally patriotic, but I don't think I've ever met a "clearly patriotic" ISTp, and I definitely wouldn't attribute such to socionics.

I know ENFjs (and other betas) from both the left and the right, and some who don't care about politics either way.

[strrrng]

I really do think people are confused about it. And that things like that lead to the absurd accusation that ****** was a beta which for sure he wasn't.

Give me a break. Huitzilopochtli already contrived some bullshit reinin argument for this. What have you got?

[xyz]

Id imagine "if you dont like the country then leave" attitude has less to do with patriotism and more with "if you have a problem either solve it or stop whining". That doesnt say ISTp's cant be patriotic, i dont think it is type related.

Exactly.

[munenori2]

Dostoevsky I think of as an ISFP.

They're unifying principles are ... Individualism, god, love of country, shunning foreigners, vigliance and paranoia, supervision ... they might be very autonomous, but i think they favor belonging to sort of balance it out. And to know who to trust and who to alienate.

Um...lol?

And it bothers ME that you're so eager to assign a perspective.

The perspective is ME, and that's all you should ever need.

Perfect.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

It really bothers me when people don't have their type listed in their profile, because then I have difficulty putting their perspective into the context of their type. So cheers to all who include it.


I've seen ISTP correlated with "anti-social" tendancies. I just think of them as being proud to be an american, sucepptable to affilitions in racist groups, the NRA, Nascar, if you dont like our country leave...etc. They do pair with the religious personality type/reporter/vigilant - maybe being somewhat anti-social compliments the ENFP verocity for affiliations? ENFPs are paranoid and dont like intimacy, i've read...It compliments them in this way, too.

In anycase I really think patritoism can't be passed off to Betas. Maybe the ESTJ is more likely the type.

Anywho...I still get the feeling its very much a gamma - delta thing.

****** was Beta. He was an EIE. What a Beta should ultimately never forget is that things are the way they are purely from his perspective. Beta is a house divided unto itself in that it is a quadra that wants unity but faces a deeply divided world. Beta on this forum comes from different perspectives and hence has different views. All Betas seek unity and those who do not find it believe themselves to be individualistic. Betas also do not see themselves as lost in a group that shares their ideals and aspirations. Deltas think of themselves as individualistic although they ultimately congregate into a group. They are fearful of groups, what they see as a lack of individuality of a group, "group think", etc.

[lefty]

****** was Beta. He was an EIE. What a Beta should ultimately never forget is that things are the way they are purely from his perspective. Beta is a house divided unto itself in that it is a quadra that wants unity but faces a deeply divided world. Beta on this forum comes from different perspectives and hence has different views. All Betas seek unity and those who do not find it believe themselves to be individualistic. Betas also do not see themselves as lost in a group that shares their ideals and aspirations. Deltas think of themselves as individualistic although they ultimately congregate into a group. They are fearful of groups, what they see as a lack of individuality of a group, "group think", etc.

I think he was a Gamma. Probably an esfp. he drew and wanted to be an architect reflecting artisan and rational NT tendancies. I'm not going to get into this debate again, but i dont see his goals as fitting into the beat mindset. once again, were programmed by the conscientious type...its antithetical to beta values. whereas gammas being programmed by the feildmarshal which sounds to me like a tendancy towards being war like or at least aggressive.

the estp doesn't "conquer" in a war like fashion they want to be popular and they can be pretty ethical. esfps can feul anti-war stuff, but they can also be hellaciously materialistic with their intp counterpart.

if you want to work him into delta i suppose its possible (could he be an ISTP the INTP architect's look-alike type?). alphas i think are too rational for such behavior.

[lefty]

And it bothers ME that you're so eager to assign a perspective.

The perspective is ME, and that's all you should ever need.


Edit:


I AM proud to be an american, especially recently. We're not a perfect country, but I am very proud to be an American. I honestly don't know where the hell you're getting the "sucepptable to affilitions in racist groups" data from, sir, because you are very much mistaken.

And yes, if you don't like our country, you have the right to get the hell out.

Well we differ there I'm really not that proud to be an American these days. I'm not proud of quite a bit of what America does or has done. We have a very messy history and we have a lot to learn. I think Betas would be more along the lines of activists and conscientious objectors...Or just generally valuing peace as a virtue, but fighting over issues when necessary.

Sorry but i see the factions of anti-semetic and racist groups in this country rooted in delta dominated communites.

[lefty]

I must agree with Anna on this one. I've I had to sum myself up in one word, I know most people wouldn't really be able to, but I'd say Skeptic would definitely fit just peachy. I do not feel Patriotism is "very ISTP" at all. At least, if we're all agreeing to what being an ISTp is.

They're all like I'm Ti - dualizing with Ne patterns traditions culture - an american. Whereas ENFJ & ISTJ are more like Fe I love you and care - dualizing with Si i'm sensitive.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

I think he was a Gamma. Probably an esfp. he drew and wanted to be an architect reflecting artisan and rational NT tendancies. I'm not going to get into this debate again, but i dont see his goals as fitting into the beat mindset. once again, were programmed by the conscientious type...its antithetical to beta values. whereas gammas being programmed by the feildmarshal which sounds to me like a tendancy towards being war like or at least aggressive.

the estp doesn't "conquer" in a war like fashion they want to be popular and they can be pretty ethical. esfps can feul anti-war stuff, but they can also be hellaciously materialistic with their intp counterpart.

if you want to work him into delta i suppose its possible (could he be an ISTP the INTP architect's look-alike type?). alphas i think are too rational for such behavior.

You are so skewed in your views, I do not know where to start. It is as if you are messing with this forum. There is a fallacy in virtually every sentence. I'm too tired and will not bother today.

[Trevor]

deltas are all about indoctrination.

More Beta than Delta.

enfp is sometimes called the religious personality type.

ENFj

fantasy is a big part of NFs lives in the delta quadrant.

More Beta NF than Delta NF.

Patriotism...very ISTP.

ISTj

Betas will accept secular ideas -

More delta than beta.

Dostoevsky I think of as an ISFP

rubbish.

[strrrng]

More Beta than Delta.

ENFj

More Beta NF than Delta NF.

ISTj

More delta than beta.


rubbish.

+20