Ni-PoLR -- How does it manifest in ESFjs and ESTjs?

[UDP]

Originally Posted by crazedrat
Another thing which isn't being mentioned here, is these Ni polr types have nearly no ability to see through lies. If you give them an excuse which involves multiple elements, they won't be able to discriminate whether it's likely to have happened or not. They'll get caught up in the 'well, it's possible'. As long as the excuse could have possibly happened, then they seem to just accept it and dismiss the whole deal.

While there's quite a few things that make me cringe a bit when reading this thread, I can't deny many of them are true. I will however single this one out as considerably wrong, at least to me. While it may seem like you're able to lie to an ESFJ, I'd bet that much of the time... in the back of their mind, all they're thinking is: "Ugh, this guy is so full of shit."
I would say I'm pretty hard for a person to lie to, in real life of course... Whether we bring it up that we think you're full of shit is another story, much of the time I just let things roll off as if whatever lie I was just told really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Unless I feel like being a prick, then I'll call their lie and see a funny looking followed by a .

For me it's more that I think everyone is suspicious and trust very few. I don't fall for lies very often, but I'm more prone to seeing enemies when there are none.

Usually Ti & Fe will mean the ESFj does listen to what you have to say, but due to their polr they just don't get it; and they seem to be primarily interested in preserving the stability of the situation at all times, to the point where this cripples their ability to face things.

ESTj, on the other hand, is more like a volcanic dumbass, and the ESTj in my life I'm thinking of reminds me of the guy you describe; I can even see the Steve Irwin analogy; I put it up to a repressed longing for Ne & Fi. It's like he's putting on a show to win peoples emotions.

Hmm.
I relate to volcanic dumbass. When I'm angry I just have to step away from things otherwise I just attack. Being so angry actually acts as a sort of "shutoff" from taking in information, which is bad, and I think can definitely make me stupider or at least act stupider.

After we get into arguments he makes a strong point of apologizing, will admit he was wrong, and even buys me stuff...

It just takes him a while, he has to sit on it and think about it; he cannot do this in the heat of an argument or make himself appear the least bit civil. I guess all people are different.

I relate to that. Unless I 'catch myself', and really think about the consequences of things, "how I feel" takes precedence. It's worse when I don't realize what's going on, and get so caught up in things that I don't see the effects of what I'm doing in the relational or personal sphere.

[crazedrat]

You're right about ESFjs and traditions. But this extends beyond their personal traditions into the traditions of society as a whole, and Ni polr creates a kind of paranoia in this area where if we don't follow these traditions, something 'bad may happen'. For example, we live on an airforce base. I was ready to go out with my friend; I think we were going to the food court or something. So anyway, I had a brown shirt on. Now my mother notices this, and decides I couldn't leave; and she catapults us into an argument, because she thought I would be 'arrested for having a shirt on which resembled a military uniform'.

It took about 20 minutes to convince her to leave me alone and be quiet. In these situations, ESFjs will play like they're struggling for the greater good. Their statements are mostly composed of guilt trips, appeals to authority; raising their voice in a tone of panic and fear, etc. After the argument's over, the ESFj gets in a sorrowful mood; you will be feeling like someone has died in your house, for about 2 hours or so.

[DirectorAbbie]

I finally figured out what PoLR means! So I'm an Ni PoLR. I envy intuitives. They're more creative and they're not bothered by things looking and feeling slightly wrong. As far as goes, I don't have the ability to look ahead in time, and can only look back by giving the past a present perspective. This is really annoying.

Last night, I was choosing what I'd wear today. But I didn't know whether it'd be chilld, cold, or freezing outside. I couldn't find the newspaper with this week's weather forecast. My INTj brother suggested that I go outside, find out where the wind is blowing from, and look in that direction to see what the weather would be tomorrow. But even if I tried that, it wouldn't tell me the temperature. My brother suggested that I wait until this morning before I decided what to wear, but I couldn't do that. It would drive me nuts! I said something like, "I'm not gonna wait 'til tomorrow, 'cause tomorrow might not exist. But it probably will, so I'll do everything today just in case, to prepare for tomorrow."

[crazedrat]

"I'm not gonna wait 'til tomorrow, 'cause tomorrow might not exist. But it probably will, so I'll do everything today just in case, to prepare for tomorrow."

Really trying to understand.. I'm sure it gives some insight into Ni polr

[dbmmama]

You're right about ESFjs and traditions. But this extends beyond their personal traditions into the traditions of society as a whole, and Ni polr creates a kind of paranoia in this area where if we don't follow these traditions, something 'bad may happen'. For example, we live on an airforce base. I was ready to go out with my friend; I think we were going to the food court or something. So anyway, I had a brown shirt on. Now my mother notices this, and decides I couldn't leave; and she catapults us into an argument, because she thought I would be 'arrested for having a shirt on which resembled a military uniform'.

It took about 20 minutes to convince her to leave me alone and be quiet. In these situations, ESFjs will play like they're struggling for the greater good. Their statements are mostly composed of guilt trips, appeals to authority; raising their voice in a tone of panic and fear, etc. After the argument's over, the ESFj gets in a sorrowful mood; you will be feeling like someone has died in your house, for about 2 hours or so.

THAT is the most repulsive shit! everyone who thinks this is me is fucked up in the brain! lol those are the bitches that piss me off the most.

[redbaron]

THAT is the most repulsive shit! everyone who thinks this is me is fucked up in the brain! lol those are the bitches that piss me off the most.

well, fwiw, my ESE isn't like that.

[crazedrat]

The person I describe is an ESFj-Fe. Do you know your subtype? Are you sure of your type? ESFj-Fe & ESTj-Te seem to have the most problems with their ni polr
You make a good point that individual differences count alot

[dbmmama]

well, fwiw, my ESE isn't like that.

whoever is, they are on the top of my "shit list." a mother in law at a birthday party yesterday is like that. OMG. fuck off lady. ive learned to WALK AWAY or the gloves come off (metaphorically)!

[redbaron]

The person I describe is an ESFj-Fe. Do you know your subtype? Are you sure of your type? ESFj-Fe & ESTj-Te seem to have the most problems with their ni polr
You make a good point that individual differences count alot

I'm not sure of his subtype at all. If I had to guess, I'd say Fe. But I'm 99% certain of ESFj. Regarding your paragraph, I will say that he does get sorrowful after an argument and very apologetic. But there aren't guilt trips or appeals to authority and people stomping on traditions doesn't seem to get his goat that much. He's pretty level-headed and reasonable. Unless he's in traffic and then it all comes out. lol Okay so he gets angry when traffic lights are too long, or if other drivers are stupid or when the layout of a particular intersection doesn't make sense to him (but my EIE aunt is the same, especially regarding other drivers). He hates the No Turn on Red signs but usually won't turn even if no one's coming, he just sits there and complains about it (unlike my SLE friend who just turns anyway, no sweat). Strikes me as Ej temperament in general I guess.

[cracka]

So anyway, I had a brown shirt on. Now my mother notices this, and decides I couldn't leave; and she catapults us into an argument, because she thought I would be 'arrested for having a shirt on which resembled a military uniform'.

That's just stupid. If you base your views of ESFJ's on shit like this, no wonder you'd think they're idiots.
*Note, I'm not saying your mother is stupid, just that situation being stupid.

[dbmmama]

I'm not sure of his subtype at all. If I had to guess, I'd say Fe. But I'm 99% certain of ESFj. Regarding your paragraph, I will say that he does get sorrowful after an argument and very apologetic. But there aren't guilt trips or appeals to authority and people stomping on traditions doesn't seem to get his goat that much. He's pretty level-headed and reasonable. Unless he's in traffic and then it all comes out. lol Okay so he gets angry when traffic lights are too long, or if other drivers are stupid or when the layout of a particular intersection doesn't make sense to him (but my EIE aunt is the same, especially regarding other drivers). He hates the No Turn on Red signs but usually won't turn even if no one's coming, he just sits there and complains about it (unlike my SLE friend who just turns anyway, no sweat). Strikes me as Ej temperament in general I guess.

i LOVE driving. the in, out, timing with other cars. i love it. hubby is the one who gets like what you say about your hubby. when he's sitting there complaining about a no turn on red, i say, just fucking go.

[redbaron]

i LOVE driving. the in, out, timing with other cars. i love it. hubby is the one who gets like what you say about your hubby. when he's sitting there complaining about a no turn on red, i say, just fucking go.

I love driving too

[crazedrat]

I do think the ESFj-Fe & ESTj-Te who I'm using as examples are particularly unhealthy people. Then again, I don't know too many 'real healthy' people.

[Angel von Himmel]

The thing about people with PoLRs is that they do not like to be separated from their things and if they do get separated, they freak out. They hate it when their environment changes and tend to move to new environments that they are familiar in. They lack environmental adaptation.

Many of them have problems looking ahead. ESE usually gather alot of friends who help take care of each other [at the expense of those close to them] and have no idea how to pay their bills usually, and ELE tend to be loners even in groups and tend to only pick a few people to be friends with out of a group even as they are usually infatuated with the whole group.

If you want to hit someone with an PoLR in a way they can not defend against, just take them out of their environment, grab their belongings, alliances, treasured things, whatever is close to them and make them come to the rescue. They just flounder around usually not knowing what to do or overreact, burning themselves out in the process. You can also turn people they may use against you [and they will try this] against them. Just be careful that your actions in using in this matter does not sink you in the process as well as them, as it might.

[Enters Laughing]

The thing about people with Ni PoLRs is that they do not like to be seperated from their things and if they do get seperated, they freak out. They hate it when their enviroment changes and tend to move to new enviroments that they are familiar in. They lack enviromental adaptation.

Many of them have problems looking ahead. ESE usually gather alot of friends who help take care of each other [at the expense of those close to them] and have no idea how to pay their bills usually, and ELE tend to be loners even in groups and tend to only pick a few people to be friends with out of a group even as they are usually infatuated with the whole group.

If you want to hit someone with an Ni PoLR in a way they can not defend against, just take them out of their enviroment, grab their belongings, alliances, treasured things, whatever is close to them and make them come to the rescue. They just flounder around usually not knowing what to do or overreact, burning themselves out in the process.

If you want to hit Reuben "No PoLR" McNew in a way he cannot defend against, just take him out of his environment against his will, burn his house down, drive his car into the river, kidnap his family and then interrogate him until he tells you Pi to a hundred places. He'll just flounder around usually not knowing what to do or he'll overreact, burning himself out in the process if you have not already done so.

[Angel von Himmel]

If you want to hit Reuben "No PoLR" McNew in a way he cannot defend against, just take him out of his environment against his will, burn his house down, drive his car into the river, kidnapped his family and then interrogate him until he tells you Pi to a hundred places. He'll just flounder around usually not knowing what to do or he'll overreact, burning himself out in the process if you have not already done so.

I have an No PoLR ... ? The rest just sounds evil. But then, so does my description on how to hit an PoLR, which I do not recommend doing unless you are ENTj or INTp and are forced to live with a bunch of thieving lazy ESFjs or ISFps with no buisness logic who are about to escape when money runs dry.

[Enters Laughing]

I have an No PoLR ... ? The rest just sounds evil.

Well you have a moving PoLR that noone can hit. I was just telling people how to defeat you in a similar manner to how you told people how to defeat Ni-PoLR types

[Angel von Himmel]

Well you have a moving PoLR that noone can hit. I was just telling people how to defeat you in a similar manner to how you told people how to defeat Ni-PoLR types

You were being sarcastic, which is a far cry from being educational.

[Enters Laughing]

You were being sarcastic, which is far cry from being educational.

You were being yourself, which is a far cry from being educational. I would think you could learn more from sarcasm then from nonsense.

[Angel von Himmel]

You were being yourself, which is a far cry from being educational.

I should just start labeling my posts "warning: above Subterranean's understanding" or something to that effect then ... or whatever your actually problem is, which apparently is above my own understanding.

[Enters Laughing]

I should just start labeling my posts "warning: above Subterranean's understanding" or something to that effect then ... or whatever your actually problem is, which apparently is above my own understanding.

You seem to think that an INTp or an INFp would not be absolutely distraught by the knowledge that you had grabbed their belongings, alliances and treasured things to the same degree that an ESFj or an ESTj would.

[Angel von Himmel]

You seem to think that an INTp or an INFp would not be absolutely distraught by the knowledge that you had grabbed their belongings, alliances and treasured things to the same degree that an ESFj or an ESTj would.

Good ... I see your point now that it is cleared from sarcasm.

is about separation, where is about bonding. People with as a creative function have as a PoLR. They want to bond things. If you separate their doings, they have no defense against it as it gunks their capability to use and bond things. This is why I said that people with an PoLR are vulnerable to separation and being caused to come to the rescue.

It is also true that an INTp and INFp could be vulnerable to this, but then they have a better chance of defending against it. An INFp would just try to equalize the effects of seperation and an INTp would just confuse whoever was trying to seperate them, so they are most likely to neutralize anyones efforts to attempt this and turn the tables. ESTjs and ESFjs have no clue how to handle this and would probably just sit there like a deer in a headlight waiting to get smashed.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Good ... I see your point now that it is cleared from sarcasm.

is about separation, where is about bonding. People with as a creative function have as a PoLR. They want to bond things. If you separate their doings, they have no defense against it as it gunks their capability to use and bond things. This is why I said that people with an PoLR are vulnerable to separation and being caused to come to the rescue.

It is also true that an INTp and INFp could be vulnerable to this, but then they have a better chance of defending against it. An INFp would just try to equalize the effects of seperation and an INTp would just confuse whoever was trying to seperate them, so they are most likely to neutralize anyones efforts to attempt this and turn the tables. ESTjs and ESFjs have no clue how to handle this and would probably just sit there like a deer in a headlight waiting to get smashed.

Interesting. How does this fit in with creative in ISTj's and ISFj's PoLR?

[Angel von Himmel]

Interesting. How does this fit in with creative in ISTj's and ISFj's PoLR?

ISTjs and ISFjs have as a PoLR ... they tend to largely lack group dynamic abilities when it comes to creating joint ventures [not to say that they do not have leadership abilities, but they have problems with creating motivation and guiding large groups of people] and are vulnerable to large groups of people ganging up on them when they interact with group dynamics. It is not uncommon for ISTjs and ISFjs to piss off large groups of people and to even be violently attacked. ISTjs and ISFjs tend to make up for this by "adding artificial value" to themselves that makes people see them as "in style or swing of things" or by causing people to underestimate their ability, but showing they compensate for it somehow.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

ISTjs and ISFjs have as a PoLR ... they tend to largely lack group dynamic abilities when it comes to creating joint ventures [not to say that they do not have leadership abilities, but they have problems with creating motivation and guiding large groups of people] and are vulnerable to large groups of people ganging up on them when they interact with group dynamics. It is not uncommon for ISTjs and ISFjs to piss off large groups of people and to even be violently attacked. ISTjs and ISFjs tend to make up for this by "adding artificial value" to themselves that makes people see them as "in style or swing of things" or by causing people to underestimate their ability, but showing they compensate for it somehow.

Makes sense thanks. I find they have difficulty tieing in projects, which in a way i've thought is a lack of synthesis of Sorry for the mis-type re Ni and Ne..and knowing what I meant

[crazedrat]

rmcnew: You are right that Ni is about seperation of bonded objects and Si is about bonding seperated objects; and good observation. I feel like I can see the functions from a Ne perspective a little bit better. Do you have anything to say about the other functions?

[DirectorAbbie]

I yell random syllables.

I do think the ESFj-Fe & ESTj-Te who I'm using as examples are particularly unhealthy people. Then again, I don't know too many 'real healthy' people.

Why are we more unhealthy than others? Everyone has a PoLR. You're putting too much value in .

The thing about people with PoLRs is that they do not like to be separated from their things and if they do get separated, they freak out. They hate it when their environment changes and tend to move to new environments that they are familiar in. They lack environmental adaptation.
...tend to be loners even in groups and tend to only pick a few people to be friends with out of a group even as they are usually infatuated with the whole group.

Very true! A couple forums I used to frequent changed their setup. I got lost and abandoned them.

[Enters Laughing]

Good ... I see your point now that it is cleared from sarcasm.

is about separation, where is about bonding. People with as a creative function have as a PoLR. They want to bond things. If you separate their doings, they have no defense against it as it gunks their capability to use and bond things. This is why I said that people with an PoLR are vulnerable to separation and being caused to come to the rescue.

It is also true that an INTp and INFp could be vulnerable to this, but then they have a better chance of defending against it. An INFp would just try to equalize the effects of seperation and an INTp would just confuse whoever was trying to seperate them, so they are most likely to neutralize anyones efforts to attempt this and turn the tables. ESTjs and ESFjs have no clue how to handle this and would probably just sit there like a deer in a headlight waiting to get smashed.

I think that an ENTj or an ENFj would be just as distraught as an ESFj or an ESTj would be if they knew you had grabbed that you had grabbed their belongings, alliances and treasured things. As for INFps and INTps - they might have a better chance of defending themselves if only because their associations with these things are likely to be more discreet. But you'd expect Ni-dominants to be less able to cope out of sheer introversion.

But I don't know why you are saying such odd things.

[crazedrat]

You aren't properly interpreting what he said. Read it again

[Enters Laughing]

You aren't properly interpreting what he said. Read it again

How well would you do in this situation? Is your name Jack Bauer or something?

If you want to hit someone with an PoLR in a way they can not defend against, just take them out of their environment, grab their belongings, alliances, treasured things, whatever is close to them and make them come to the rescue. They just flounder around usually not knowing what to do or overreact, burning themselves out in the process. You can also turn people they may use against you [and they will try this] against them. Just be careful that your actions in using in this matter does not sink you in the process as well as them, as it might.

[redbaron]

How well would you do in this situation? Is your name Jack Bauer or something?

I do think my ESE husband has a harder time than I do with adapting to changes. In general. Getting his bearings in unfamiliar territory. That's why when we travel, I'm the one who does the planning, the mapping out, the leading, etc. He's a little bit deer-in-the-headlights with that stuff. Which always is surprising to me for some reason but I'm getting used to it. (after 15 years, lol)

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Good thread.

I say yes, anything that is about linking abstract concepts, or complex inner worlds. I've never seen a Ni polr get too involved in a book or imaginary world. (They can like guilty pleasures but nothing ever abstract or grand scheme-y.) Not only do Ni dominants have the ability to connect time and continuity in the real world, we can also do it for make-believe ones as well.

They brush off complex problems with a just 'Get over it!', which frustrates me to no end, because I know there has to be an emotional release and a psychological process to overcome big life changes. At least I know that's where it has to start. They tend to break through problems with raw force at the expense of analyzing their true feelings, which works for them because hey, something is always getting done - but it doesn't end up ideally at all, which is what the Ni-type needs. (Or maybe I'm just talking about IEIs) They make stupid decisions by their 'just do it' philosophy, lacking the sense and time of when something should ideally be executed. They try to cover this up by more and more actions, when what they really need to do is sit the fuck down already and pay closer attention to their own emotions and thought processes.

They're rarely honest with their own emotions, but will constantly chastise others if they see them being down. They're unable to admit that they're really upset, and kinda go along until they explode. This EJ-ness upsets IP to no end.

They very much enjoy the emotional release of a preacher attempting to wrinkle out philosophical and moral complexities, but do not think about them further nor are they capable of connecting one abstract concept to the next. So they lack creativity. They're too easily impressed by 'Oprah pop 101 psychology' and shake and shudder at the real thing. Also they can be quite naive if somebody is claiming to 'Help' somebody, when the helper might not have any clue what they're talking about and would only make the situation worse.

I notice I have to CONSTANTLY guide Ni-polrs from going to bad psychologists and therapists and preachers and 'gurus'.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I do think my ESE husband has a harder time than I do with adapting to changes. In general. Getting his bearings in unfamiliar territory. That's why when we travel, I'm the one who does the planning, the mapping out, the leading, etc. He's a little bit deer-in-the-headlights with that stuff. Which always is surprising to me for some reason but I'm getting used to it. (after 15 years, lol)

That might not be type related. I don't know. I think that's just an experience/level of confidence thing.

[redbaron]

Loki, I know that feeling of being distraught among crowds of people and too much stimuli. I'm the same. I've learned mostly to avoid those situations at all costs. I never go shopping when I know there'll be lots of people there. I don't attend things like jazz fests and such because it's too much stimulation that makes me kind of shut down.

My SEI dad has OCD and used to check to be sure the doors were locked, multiple times at night before going to bed. He's not quite so bad now (but then again he's been on Prozac for the past, um, 15 years )

[redbaron]

Good thread.

I say yes, anything that is about linking abstract concepts, or complex inner worlds. I've never seen a Ni polr get too involved in a book or imaginary world. (They can like guilty pleasures but nothing ever abstract or grand scheme-y.) Not only do Ni dominants have the ability to connect time and continuity in the real world, we can also do it for make-believe ones as well.

They brush off complex problems with a just 'Get over it!', which frustrates me to no end, because I know there has to be an emotional release and a psychological process to overcome big life changes. At least I know that's where it has to start. They tend to break through problems with raw force at the expense of analyzing their true feelings, which works for them because hey, something is always getting done - but it doesn't end up ideally at all, which is what the Ni-type needs. (Or maybe I'm just talking about IEIs) They make stupid decisions by their 'just do it' philosophy, lacking the sense and time of when something should ideally be executed. They try to cover this up by more and more actions, when what they really need to do is sit the fuck down already and pay closer attention to their own emotions and thought processes.

They're rarely honest with their own emotions, but will constantly chastise others if they see them being down. They're unable to admit that they're really upset, and kinda go along until they explode. This EJ-ness upsets IP to no end.

They very much enjoy the emotional release of a preacher attempting to wrinkle out philosophical and moral complexities, but do not think about them further nor are they capable of connecting one abstract concept to the next. So they lack creativity. They're too easily impressed by 'Oprah pop 101 psychology' and shake and shudder at the real thing. Also they can be quite naive if somebody is claiming to 'Help' somebody, when the helper might not have any clue what they're talking about and would only make the situation worse.

I notice I have to CONSTANTLY guide Ni-polrs from going to bad psychologists and therapists and preachers and 'gurus'.

Well, let's see. My ESE husband LOVES the Fellowship of the Ring books, the Hobbit, stuff like that. So I dunno.

I agree that they don't have a good sense for when something ideally should be done. And he DEFINITELY has a hard time admitting that he's upset until suddenly he explodes and I'll be like "where did this come from??" and it's a huge deal. Then he'll be like I don't want to have to explain it to you if you can't figure it out on your own and I'm like

My husband hates Oprah. I'll say that much for him. He has a high level of disregard for pop psychology. In fact, he's pretty skeptical of this personality stuff. He doesn't want to be labeled and put in a box.

[DirectorAbbie]

My husband hates Oprah. I'll say that much for him. He has a high level of disregard for pop psychology. In fact, he's pretty skeptical of this personality stuff. He doesn't want to be labeled and put in a box.

I love being put in a box! I just haven't found one that fit me until now. Here's my label: Christian ESTj-Te, E1, Φ000

[strrrng]

They very much enjoy the emotional release of a preacher attempting to wrinkle out philosophical and moral complexities, but do not think about them further nor are they capable of connecting one abstract concept to the next. So they lack creativity. They're too easily impressed by 'Oprah pop 101 psychology' and shake and shudder at the real thing. Also they can be quite naive if somebody is claiming to 'Help' somebody, when the helper might not have any clue what they're talking about and would only make the situation worse.

+100

[munenori2]

Well, let's see. My ESE husband LOVES the Fellowship of the Ring books, the Hobbit, stuff like that. So I dunno.

I agree that they don't have a good sense for when something ideally should be done. And he DEFINITELY has a hard time admitting that he's upset until suddenly he explodes and I'll be like "where did this come from??" and it's a huge deal. Then he'll be like I don't want to have to explain it to you if you can't figure it out on your own and I'm like

My husband hates Oprah. I'll say that much for him. He has a high level of disregard for pop psychology. In fact, he's pretty skeptical of this personality stuff. He doesn't want to be labeled and put in a box.

Maybe I'm Ni-PoLR?

[redbaron]

I love being put in a box! I just haven't found one that fit me until now. Here's my label: Christian ESTj-Te, E1, Φ000

wait, are you being sarcastic?

[DirectorAbbie]

wait, are you being sarcastic?

Nope. I've wanted a box for quite a while, but didn't have one 'cause I'm so picky.