Alpha Fictional Characters in Movies and Literature

[electric sheep]

No way in hell is Darth Vader an ILE.
Han Solo and Chewbacca are ILE/SEI in Return of the Jedi. That particular movie had a distinct alpha vibe to it.

@Logos
ah, to be an LII-9. If only you understood
Vash is very sensitive and has the moral code, I'll give you that, but I think the way he treats his enemies is very alpha. His moral code seems to be quite limited if you look closely, the only thing he hates is violence--all the other crime he sees don't really bother him. Also, he never reveals his true feelings, he's always trying to hide his thoughts from the insurance ladies. Underneath it all he is a really cold, logical person imo. I'm currently watching the series again.

@krig
yes, House is an ILE. A very mean one, but an ILE indeed. He is led by his intuition and he can frustrate others by how unpredictable he is.

[mu4]

Actually, my assessment of Vash was as an EII.

Yes.

[mu4]

Respectfully, in my opinion that list contains a lot of non-ILEs. Of those listed, I would say that Dr. House, Morpheus, McGyver, Indiana Jones, and Darth Vader are all almost certainly not ILE, and I'm not sure about the others. Indiana Jones and McGyver, for example, I would say are SLI, and possibly Dr. House too.

I'm curious as to what led you to these typings. I'm always prepared to be proven wrong...

No comment on Vader.

House is a very good example of a ILE-Ti. One that just doesn't want to give a fuck. But he follows his own code pretty strictly usually to the benefit of others, intellectually if not to a more healthy future. Contrary to to the comment about House being mean, he's not mean, insufferable yes, but not mean. He simply does not want anyone to get close to him.

[mu4]

Underneath it all he is a really cold, logical person imo. I'm currently watching the series again.

What do you mean logical, do you actually mean rational?

I think EII's irl can be fairly cold rational passionless people.

The ethical subtype appears polite and tactful, constrained and passionless. They tend to keep some distance in dialogue and may seem strict and/or cold. Gradually, however, this impression dissipates as during dialogue their sincere sympathy and desire to assist is revealed. Serious, quiet and benevolent people, are usually scrupulous and tactful, they lack the ability to joke or flatter. In times of dispute with others they prefer to leave silently rather than resort to diplomacy. Are very hardworking, laborious, patient and assiduous. Will not stand for violence and injustice. Consecutive and firm in their principles. Ably creates comfort by decorating the home with hand-made articles – work well with their hands. Countenance is guarded – they seldom smile.. Pays attention towards maintaining a thin figure; dresses modestly with taste and elegance. Their movements are smooth yet firm, their gait quick yet restrained. They sit straight and seldom gesticulate while in conversation.

Someone who behaves strictly and rationally may not be logical, as their principles are not founded in logical systems of relations but rather ethical systems of relations.

I don't think you can type Vash as a ethical subtype or whatnot in socionics as he's a fictional character given some audience pleasing qualities, but the basis of his actions is ethical not logical, although he is rational about the execution.

As far as how Alpha types treat their enemies...

Have you read the Count of Monte Cristo?

Evil should be fed it's own tail!

[Krig the Viking]

No comment on Vader.

House is a very good example of a ILE-Ti. One that just doesn't want to give a fuck. But he follows his own code pretty strictly usually to the benefit of others, intellectually if not to a more healthy future. Contrary to to the comment about House being mean, he's not mean, insufferable yes, but not mean. He simply does not want anyone to get close to him.

I felt it would be more appropriate to continue this discussion here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post553886

[Marie84]

Respectfully, in my opinion that list contains a lot of non-ILEs. Of those listed, I would say that Dr. House, Morpheus, McGyver, Indiana Jones, and Darth Vader are all almost certainly not ILE, and I'm not sure about the others. Indiana Jones and McGyver, for example, I would say are SLI, and possibly Dr. House too.

I'm curious as to what led you to these typings. I'm always prepared to be proven wrong...

Second this.
I really can't see any other type for Indie but SLI, but if someone wants to make an argument for another type I'd hear it.

I'm pretty sure Hugh Laurie is an SLI in real life, which probably comes through in the character.
TV characters are generally the least consistent to type, since they can change from one episode to the next, not to mention that they're multiple writers.
I watch House and I don't think he is any one type consistently

[Warlord]

TV characters are generally the least consistent to type, since they can change from one episode to the next, not to mention that they're multiple writers.

Indeed.

[1981slater]

Ti ENTp

Reed, Criminal Minds

[Krig the Viking]

Some more Alphas, in my opinion:

LII
Stargate: Daniel Jackson
Bones: Dr. Temperance "Bones" Brennan
New Star Trek: New Spock
TMNT: Donatello )(munenori2 posted Donatello and Michaelangelo before, but didn't specify their types)

ESE
Bones: Seeley Booth
Veronica Mars: Veronica Mars (I had initially typed her as SLE, but Normalizing ESE makes more sense. EJ > EP)
Heroes: Elle
TMNT: Michaelangelo

ILE
Lost: Daniel Faraday


Also, I think a possible alternate typing for Fry from Futurama is IEE. He does seem to me like an Si-valuing feeler, but I think his temperament seems more EP: his energy levels fluctuate wildly from lazily sitting on the couch, to running around accidentally instigating madcap escapades.

I think Zoidberg might be SEI, though.

[1981slater]

LII

John "Jigsaw" Kramer

[electric sheep]

Amazon.com: The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao (9781594483295): Junot Díaz: Books

Main character (Oscar Wao) is an LII with an IEI sister and an SLE in there as well. It's a very good book, I highly recommend it.

[Krig the Viking]

Some more:

LII
The Lord of the Rings: Gandalf the Grey
Due South: Benton Fraser

ESE
Smallville: Chloe Sullivan

ILE
The Adventures of Robin Hood (Errol Flynn version): Robin Hood
Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-Long Blog: Dr. Horrible

SEI
The Adventures of Robin Hood (Errol Flynn version): Maid Marion
Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-Long Blog: Penny
Firefly: Inara (possibly)

[Marie84]

I agree strongly with Robin Hood, even in the Disney animated one he's ILE.

Gandalf seems LIE>LII, but I'm curious to why you say LII

[Khola aka Bee]

I agree strongly with Robin Hood, even in the Disney animated one he's ILE.

Gandalf seems LIE>LII, but I'm curious to why you say LII

Bi-curious? HaHA! Bi-curious.

[Creepy-bg]

Bi-curious? HaHA! Bi-curious.

pics or it didn't happen

[Krig the Viking]

Gandalf seems LIE>LII, but I'm curious to why you say LII

To be honest, Gandalf was one of those intuitive "Oh that guy is so my identical" typings that I didn't really sit down and think about. But let's see... Tolkien does seem to use Gandalf to express a lot of his own viewpoints, and I think Tolkien was an LII. I remember him being rather concerned with the proper use of language and grammar, in a way that seemed LII to me. Also, the whole way in which Gandalf discovered that Bilbo's little ring was the One Ring: he had a suspicion as to the true nature of the ring, went down to Gondor, and did a whole lot of research. "Understanding the true nature of a thing" seems like a very Alpha NT motivation to me.

It's interesting that you should type him as LIE, because I had typed him as a Dominant subtype in the DCNH system. He does seem more active and action-oriented than other LIIs (especially the movie version), but I think it's still within the range of LII behaviour.

I am also curious, what were your reasons for typing him LIE?

[1981slater]

Ne-INTj Michael Scofield (Prison Break)

[Logos]

Well here is a short description of Gandalf's character written by Tolkein:

Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the Enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within. Merry he could be, and kindly to the young and simple, yet quick at times to sharp speech and the rebuking of folly; but he was not proud, and sought neither power nor praise... Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff, and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf 'the Elf of the Wand'. For they deemed him (though in error) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times work wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear. ... Yet it is said that in the ending of the task for which he came he suffered greatly, and was slain, and being sent back from death and was clothed then in white, and became a radiant flame (yet veiled still save in great need).

[Marie84]

To be honest, Gandalf was one of those intuitive "Oh that guy is so my identical" typings that I didn't really sit down and think about. But let's see... Tolkien does seem to use Gandalf to express a lot of his own viewpoints, and I think Tolkien was an LII. I remember him being rather concerned with the proper use of language and grammar, in a way that seemed LII to me. Also, the whole way in which Gandalf discovered that Bilbo's little ring was the One Ring: he had a suspicion as to the true nature of the ring, went down to Gondor, and did a whole lot of research. "Understanding the true nature of a thing" seems like a very Alpha NT motivation to me.

It's interesting that you should type him as LIE, because I had typed him as a Dominant subtype in the DCNH system. He does seem more active and action-oriented than other LIIs (especially the movie version), but I think it's still within the range of LII behaviour.

I am also curious, what were your reasons for typing him LIE?

I've never heard of DCNH subtype but I'll look into it, seems interesting.

Reasoning for LIE:
*quick to anger
*"consistently upbraided foolish behavior, but also richly rewarded those who acted with good intentions"
*thinks ahead, prone to foresight (Ni)
*relationship and reactions to Pippin- SEI (refers to second point)

About Tolkien's types, I recently read a compilation of some of his letters, prior to that I knew little about him besides that he was best friends with C.S. Lewis, who I typed prior as LIE
After that, I'm fairly certain on EII, if subtypes exist, Ne, rather looked a lot like one too. It is actually Faramir (EII) that he stated was most like himself.
He also had a very self-righteous streak to him about how people should treat one another, a rather irritating judgmental habit that we dominant types posses :redface:
His wife looked like an LSE, although there isn't any other information on her confirm this.

Tolkien's son Christopher was very likely an LII though, he brought structure into his father stories before they were sent off to be published. He was also the one who created the proper maps for his story, which his father had great difficulties with, often contradicting geographical information.

On a number of occasions he expressed an inability to separate work from hobby, seeing them as overlapping one another and thus not knowing if either actually accomplished its intentions. It was due to Lewis's encouragement that he continued with the stories.
I think it's possible that he, subconsciously, based some of Gandalf on Lewis.

[/nerdism]

[Krig the Viking]

Hmm, Marie, you make some good points. I'm going to have to put a question mark beside Gandalf in my files until I can find some time to sit down and examine the books and movies for socionics data.

[Logos]

I personally think that Gandalf is EII.

[Krig the Viking]

I personally think that Gandalf is EII.

Gandalf? A feeling type? How do you figure?

Maybe we should make a "Type Gandalf" thread somewhere, instead of going off topic here...

[electric sheep]

I personally think that Gandalf is EII.

I was actually just thinking about that today. There is no way he can be motivated by . He denies himself the ring solely because he knows he will want to use its power for good, which he knows is self defeating.

I think he's too harsh for EII though, like Marie said. If I had a plan to save the world and some idiot hobbit kept screwing it up, I'd be pretty pissed too.

[Marie84]

I personally think that Gandalf is EII.

hmm interesting, I've seen him typed as an ESI on a few Russian forums.

Arwen (in the movies), Frodo and Faramir were pretty solid EII's, though

I was actually just thinking about that today. There is no way he can be motivated by . He denies himself the ring solely because he knows he will want to use its power for good, which he knows is self defeating.

I think he's too harsh for EII though, like Marie said. If I had a plan to save the world and some idiot hobbit kept screwing it up, I'd be pretty pissed too.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "not motivated by Se", Se doesn't equate to being evil or cruel.
Gandalf is rather forceful in his views, often berating anyone he deems as foolish, which I can see a type do

EII's only berate someone when they're being unethical/insensitive, like how Frodo lectured Sam about being cruel to Gollum

[electric sheep]

I'm not really sure what you mean by "not motivated by Se", Se doesn't equate to being evil or cruel.
Gandalf is rather forceful in his views, often berating anyone he deems as foolish, which I can see a type do

Well the hidden agenda is exactly that--our agenda. it motivates us and our actions tend to go to that end. Who is Gandalf? The harsh berating type, or the one who smoked too much weed with Bilbo?

[krieger]

Gandalf is a Serious type, almost certainly an INTp. Saruman is the only clear IxTj type in the Lord of the Rings' story (except maybe Elrond). It's not surprising that Tolkien (INTp) casted him as a villain.

[ArchonAlarion]

I haven't decided whether Tolkein was SLI or LII. His writing is often purely descriptive and without energy or proper pacing. That could just be the writing style of the times or perhaps because Tolkein wrote the series that way on purpose. I know he felt it more of a "pretend real" mythology to be expanded upon by other people, at least originally. But the way he has no qualms about cutting into any climactic scene with random fucking information reminds me of Delta ST.

Gandalf was not LIE and imo not Ni/Se. I also believe he was rational.

LII, maybe LSE, but EII is kinda interesting too.

but of course he is a fictional character and all that jazz, so w/e.

[Marie84]

Gandalf is a Serious type, almost certainly an INTp.

meh, I don't see him as being motivated by > he has no problems using Se when he has to.

Saruman is the only clear IxTj type in the Lord of the Rings' story (except maybe Elrond).

Saruman LSI>LII. Denethor was Beta ST as well, not sure if SLE or LSI, I'm not sure about Elrond

It's not surprising that Tolkien (INTp) casted him as a villain.

I actually thought he may have been ILI as well, until I read this book

But the way he has no qualms about cutting into any climactic scene with random fucking information reminds me of Delta ST.

[electric sheep]

random information from an ILE's perspective is

[Marie84]

random information from an ILE's perspective is

"Extroverted intuition is generally associated with the ability to recognize possibilities, create new opportunities and new beginnings, recognize talent and natural propensities in others, reconcile differing perspectives and viewpoints, rapidly generate ideas, and be led by one's intellectual curiosity and stimulate curiosity in others.

Types that value Ne prefer to try out an opportunity rather than consider all possible ways in which it could not work out. They pick a few options and stick with them, in contrast to Ni types who pick one option and continue to doubt that option.

They enjoy discussing unusual insights into the nature of the world and crazy out-there ideas, like space elevators. Typical Ne quadra humor juxtaposes seemingly unrelated phenomena."

[electric sheep]

I didn't see the word "random" anywhere in there.

[ArchonAlarion]

I'm sure there is Ne in Tolkein's work because he is Ne/Si. However, the Ne does not seem to be linked by Fe. His writing is very dry and matter of fact. He does little to shove hidden messages or implications of mood in the characters.

Like, the movies are pretty Alpha imo. So I can see the difference between the two medias. But like I said, I'm not sure if his style was just the contemporary convention or not. Even the hobbit is less dry, but it was originally intended for children, whereas lotr was explicitly adult fiction, so idk.

[Marie84]

I didn't see the word "random" anywhere in there.

Ne is an irrational function, it works spontaneously focusing on potential, possibilities and novel ideas. Thus, is is random

"rapidly generate ideas"
"seemingly unrelated phenomena"

Te is a rational function, it's direct, planed and used for a particular purpose, thus it is not random

I'm sure there is Ne in Tolkein's work because he is Ne/Si. However, the Ne does not seem to be linked by Fe. His writing is very dry and matter of fact. He does little to shove hidden messages or implications of mood in the characters.

Like, the movies are pretty Alpha imo. So I can see the difference between the two medias. But like I said, I'm not sure if his style was just the contemporary convention or not. Even the hobbit is less dry, but it was originally intended for children, whereas lotr was explicitly adult fiction, so idk.

The Shire is largely Alpha, though the story is primarily Delta with some slight Gamma influence

Alpha motto= To reflect and delight in
Delta motto= To protect and to help

More Alpha dominant fantasies are Alice in Wonderland, Peterpan and Tim Burton movies; less serious with a lighter atmosphere

[Krig the Viking]

Oh so many points to respond to...

Rodney McKay's drive to be known, recognized, and loved in an manner? His unhealthy obsession with his health? (Which is admittedly more a sign of weak Si.) Rodney is reluctant to admit his error in the face of counterevidence (much like Einstein and quantum mechanics). Rodney wasn't interested in speedy practical applications of technology, but they were frequently demanded of him in his job and field work. McKay is the most theoretical of all of the characters, apart from maybe Zelenka, who by contrast is a bit more grounded and critical of Leading-Ne theories. Zelenka's role is mostly to point to points of problematic Ti in McKay's Ne-leading theories. Furthermore, McKay's working relationship with Zelenka is more evocative of mirror relations than quasi-identical. As a contrast, I would say that Woolsey is an LIE.

Having rewatched about half of Atlantis Season 1 while paying close attention to socionics-relevant stuff, I have to say your arguments have convinced me. McKay's relationships are most telling, I think: the Mirror relationship with Zelenka, the Duality relationship with Jennifer Keller (who I'm pretty sure was SEI), his relationships with the other characters -- when all added up, ILE made much more sense than LIE.

I'll have to pay special attention to Woolsey when I get to that part. That may be a while yet.

[krieger]

meh, I don't see him as being motivated by > he has no problems using Se when he has to.

He's an idealized version of his type. Many of his positive characteristics are just there so he can participate in the story as one of it's heroes. The problem with an ENTj typing is that he doesn't have the typical positive attitude of that type. He has a worried, subdued personality, warning others of dangers and trying to reduce their enthusiasm (see his reactions to Pergrin and Merry; both Ti/Fe valuing extroverts). An ENTj would have been almost the complete opposite to this.

Saruman LSI>LII.

Actually the fact that he is an archetypal intellectual (wizard even, supposedly an art that requires decades of study) strongly indicates INTj over ISTj even to the point of making the latter look wholly implausible.

I actually thought he may have been ILI as well

The only reasonable alternatives to INTp are ISTp and INFp.

[Marie84]

He's an idealized version of his type. Many of his positive characteristics are just there so he can participate in the story as one of it's heroes. The problem with an ENTj typing is that he doesn't have the typical positive attitude of that type. He has a worried, subdued personality, warning others of dangers and trying to reduce their enthusiasm (see his reactions to Pergrin and Merry; both Ti/Fe valuing extroverts). An ENTj would have been almost the complete opposite to this.

I really don't agree with this at all. The idea that positive and negative feelings/attitude are predestined through type is ridiculous.
Feelings and moods are a reflection of a number of factors, all that can change, and have nothing to do with Socionics

Actually the fact that he is an archetypal intellectual (wizard even, supposedly an art that requires decades of study) strongly indicates INTj over ISTj even to the point of making the latter look wholly implausible.

You think he was Se PoLR?

The only reasonable alternatives to INTp are ISTp and INFp.

If I may ask, why?

From reading the book, I mentioned above, that compile his personal letters, containing his views, Se+Ni valuing and Ne+Si devaluing is highly unlikely.
Some of the topics he frequently discusses are about his dislike of industrialization, modernization, unethical behavior and force/control (particularly politically)

[electric sheep]

Ne is an irrational function, it works spontaneously focusing on potential, possibilities and novel ideas. Thus, is is random

"rapidly generate ideas"
"seemingly unrelated phenomena"

Te is a rational function, it's direct, planed and used for a particular purpose, thus it is not random

Actually I was just mocking your hyper literalism.

[krieger]

The idea that positive and negative feelings/attitude are predestined through type is ridiculous.

If you think that there is no respect whatsoever in which ESFj is a type with a persistently more positive attitude than INTp, you haven't paid any attention to what is being said and written about the types. It is not a ridiculous idea at all. ENTjs are near the top of the ranking of positivity in terms of their general attitude and behavior at a place only slightly below the ESFj. INTp is probably the lowest of all the types on this ranking.

You think he was Se PoLR?

The only time in the story in which Saruman displays something describable as the physical confidence of Se is when he battles and imprisons Gandalf in his tower. This scene may very well not exist in nearly the same detail in the actual written story. The rest of the story is all about him commanding things from out of his safe tower where anything physical can not reach him. It's exactly when this physical security gets breached (Ent attack) that things go awry for him.

If I may ask, why?

Mainly his body type, which is unique to IP types. The unworldly uniqueness (there was no "fantasy" at that time in any form close what exists now) of everything he has created is also IP > any other temperament and strongly indicates Ni. Pretty much every other temperament would have stuck to something more recognizable and easy to relate to.

Some of the topics he frequently discusses are about his dislike of industrialization, modernization, unethical behavior and force/control (particularly politically)

Yes, he was worried about very general trends, not specific things that harmed him. Ni > Si.

[ArchonAlarion]

Ne is an irrational function, it works spontaneously focusing on potential, possibilities and novel ideas. Thus, is is random

"rapidly generate ideas"
"seemingly unrelated phenomena"

Te is a rational function, it's direct, planed and used for a particular purpose, thus it is not random



The Shire is largely Alpha, though the story is primarily Delta with some slight Gamma influence

Alpha motto= To reflect and delight in
Delta motto= To protect and to help

More Alpha dominant fantasies are Alice in Wonderland, Peterpan and Tim Burton movies; less serious with a lighter atmosphere

To reflect and delight in?

Sounds like utter ******ry. What about that suggests Ti/Fe?

The shire is a Delta heaven.

[krieger]

The shire is a Delta heaven.

I agree. It's a place of comfortable conservatism, not innovation.