EIEs/ENFjs being warm but 'formal' and 'distant'

[unefille]

The other night I was with an old SEE friend and a friend we've both known for about 4 months. We both really enjoy his company and like him quite a lot.

There was this moment during the evening when she suddenly declared that he was part of our 'inner sanctum'.

My reaction was NO. As much as I like him, 4 months of close acquaintance does not equal inner sanctum for me. 4 years, maybe. Moreover, I would never say something like that. I assume that if you are part of that 'inner sanctum' of mine, you should know it implicitly. I find saying things like that really strange, bizarre and uncomfortable. Telling people how much I like them is so completely alien to me. The thing is, I can be so friendly to people whether or not they're in my 'inner sanctum' - how I feel personally about someone really doesn't alter the way I think is appropriate as to how I act toward them. But how I actually feel about someone matters to me inside. It doesn't change the way I behave, but it changes the content of our relationship. The degree of reliance, or confidence. And I just don't let people in that easily.

I think the SEE's behaviour is explained by creative Fi. And Fi people let how they actually feel about someone dictate their behaviour toward them much more - which is why they can be 'cooler' on first acquaintance and their later warmth reflects a stronger bond.

In contrast, I'm very warm, but somewhat 'formal' or 'distant' (maybe even 'insincere') when I first meet someone - and closeness is marked by increasing sincerity and revealing actual information about myself, as opposed to increasing warmth.

I was wondering how other Betas define their inner sanctum?

[Satan]

The other night I was with an old SEE friend and a friend we've both known for about 4 months. We both really enjoy his company and like him quite a lot.

There was this moment during the evening when she suddenly declared that he was part of our 'inner sanctum'.

My reaction was NO. As much as I like him, 4 months of close acquaintance does not equal inner sanctum for me. 4 years, maybe. Moreover, I would never say something like

Inner sanctum!

What the fuck does that mean.

that. I assume that if you are part of that 'inner sanctum' of mine, you should know it implicitly. I find saying things like that really strange, bizarre and uncomfortable. Telling people how much I like them is so completely alien to me. The thing is, I can be so friendly

Oh unefile you're the love of my life. Now onto more important things.

to people whether or not they're in my 'inner sanctum' - how I feel personally about someone really doesn't alter the way I think is appropriate as to how I act toward them. But

Why should you be nice to people you don't like? Do you need that people that much. Don't you see that people can use that against you.

how I actually feel about someone matters to me inside. It doesn't change the way I behave, but it changes the content of our relationship. The degree of reliance, or confidence. And I just don't let people in that easily.

For me it seems to change the "distance".

I think the SEE's behaviour is explained by creative Fi. And Fi people let how they actually feel about someone dictate their behaviour toward them much more - which is why they can be 'cooler' on first acquaintance and their later warmth reflects a stronger bond.

You say this.

In contrast, I'm very warm, but somewhat 'formal' or 'distant' (maybe even 'insincere') when I first meet someone - and closeness is marked by increasing sincerity and revealing actual information about myself, as opposed to increasing warmth.

Formal/distant - or cool - aren't they the same thing.

Actually that is a point. I'm really "hot" when I first meet people sometimes.

And sometimes people seem to question how long I've "known" someone for.

I was wondering how other Betas define their inner sanctum?

What the fuck is an inner sanctum.

Is that like masturbating with friends.

[unefille]

Inner sanctum!

What the fuck does that mean.

What the fuck is an inner sanctum.

Is that like masturbating with friends.

Her words - not mine. I'd rather fellate a knife than say to someone 'you're part of my inner sanctum'. Maybe I exaggerate.

Oh unefille you're the love of my life.

I'm chuffed.

Why should you be nice to people you don't like? Do you need that people that much. Don't you see that people can use that against you.

I'm nice to people I don't know. I'm polite and neutral to people I don't like. I really don't seem how my personal feelings should justify being a rude arsehole - particularly because I can very mean if I decide to be mean.

Formal/distant - or cool - aren't they the same thing.

Actually that is a point. I'm really "hot" when I first meet people sometimes.

And sometimes people seem to question how long I've "known" someone for.

Precisely. You can be both formal and warm - intimate and cold. One is about the closeness of relations, the other is about the way in which communication is carried out. Or so it is for me.

[07490]

"closeness is marked by increasing sincerity and revealing actual information about myself, as opposed to increasing warmth."

I can agree with this sentence.

[Ezra]

Good thread. Although come over to Socionics Workshop, unefille (and idolatrie). This place is dying.

When someone says "I love you", girl or guy (man-love), I don't know how to react. I don't really like it, but I don't particularly dislike it either. I'm left in limbo for a few seconds. I normally grin, but it's a sort of superficial grin; it doesn't truly reveal my emotion (because there isn't one to reveal).

I very rarely say that I like someone. I say someone is "cool", or "awesome" or "really good at x", or I pick out some other trait or characteristic of said someone, but I never say that I actually like them. I think there have been a few times when I've said to Leon "awww man, I love you!" and I've experienced a genuinely happy, warm emotion just being around him, but these times are definitely few.

As for knowing someone for four months, that is odd. Unless you spend a long time with them (I'm talking about everyday for a prolonged amount of time*), it basically cannot be the case that they enter your "inner sanctum"; I couldn't even imagine this occurring for anyone, regardless of whether they're Te/Fi or Fe/Ti. It's just odd. I've known Expat for a long time, and met up with him about eight times to talk about socionics, but he certainly isn't in my "inner sanctum".

In fact, I'd like to know what she meant by that exactly (if the SEE is the one you've talked about previously, who I believe is a "she"). Also, how do you see the relationship with this guy?

In contrast, I'm very warm, but somewhat 'formal' or 'distant' (maybe even 'insincere') when I first meet someone - and closeness is marked by increasing sincerity and revealing actual information about myself, as opposed to increasing warmth.

This is just like my EIE best friend at uni, Greg. He is massive on what he deems to be "etiquette" (much of which can often change its meaning to suite him at any particular time). Essentially, he's "warm" on first meeting, but he's very bitchy. He's a polite, well-mannered individual, but if he thinks someone's a dick, he basically just doesn't respect them, which means he just finds nothing to admire about them at all, and he will often pass comments across to me about the person, which I revel in, due to his Fe. I really do love spending time with him, but I'm not sure I'd really ever say "I really like him"; it just feels weird to me. However, I know our bonds are good, because he really does reveal information about himself exclusively to me.

*I used to go to a Quaker event every year for just one week, between the ages of ten and seventeen. Everyone there you felt was your friend, someone you could confide in. It was a great atmosphere, and even if you actually met someone at the start of the week, it was very easy to feel that, by the end of the week, they were in your "inner sanctum". I remember there was one guy that I treasured my friendship with when I was ten, and I've only ever seen him that one week when I was ten years old. I did email him once, but that was it. I haven't spoken since, yet our relationship at that time was phenomenal. That was by no means unique either, neither for me or for others who experienced similar things.

[unefille]

When someone says "I love you", girl or guy (man-love), I don't know how to react. I don't really like it, but I don't particularly dislike it either. I'm left in limbo for a few seconds. I normally grin, but it's a sort of superficial grin; it doesn't truly reveal my emotion (because there isn't one to reveal).

I find I usually react by making a joke or giving them a hug or responding with some Fe by trying to maintain/reflect their emotions back at them - something to diffuse the situation; however, I'm always aware of the inadequacy of my response. I simply can't go there easily.

I very rarely say that I like someone. I say someone is "cool", or "awesome" or "really good at x", or I pick out some other trait or characteristic of said someone, but I never say that I actually like them. I think there have been a few times when I've said to Leon "awww man, I love you!" and I've experienced a genuinely happy, warm emotion just being around him, but these times are definitely few.

I can completely identify with this. I can happily tell someone that they their actions perpetuate god-like awesomeness and that everything they touch turns to gold (actually, the more hyperbolic, the more easily it comes out - particularly if it makes obscure, cultural allusions at the same time, like a coded in-joke), but I generally can't say 'I like you'. It's putting your relationship into words and giving it definition that's difficult. Until you say it, everything is more of a mist - it can take any shape - and that amorphous quality is safe. Once you say it, that's it.

Sometimes, when I'm really grateful or happy, I'll say 'I LOVE YOU!!!' and that's clearly hyperbole. Once an IEE I was hanging out with said in reply: 'No, you don't.' I was completely taken aback. In my mind, I simply thought: well, of course I didn't mean it because if I did, I wouldn't say it so easily.

I have friends from Fi quadras who seem very happy, if not altogether eager, to define our closeness in what I consider concrete terms. They will tell me exactly how close we are - the degree of intimacy they feel we share. It makes me sort of nervous, actually. I respond adequately, I think, but I know that my response is a reaction calibrated to respond adequately to their words. It's not that I don't care for them as much - but it's not something I generally consciously think much about at all.

As for knowing someone for four months, that is odd. Unless you spend a long time with them (I'm talking about everyday for a prolonged amount of time*), it basically cannot be the case that they enter your "inner sanctum"; I couldn't even imagine this occurring for anyone, regardless of whether they're Te/Fi or Fe/Ti. It's just odd. I've known Expat for a long time, and met up with him about eight times to talk about socionics, but he certainly isn't in my "inner sanctum".

In fact, I'd like to know what she meant by that exactly (if the SEE is the one you've talked about previously, who I believe is a "she"). Also, how do you see the relationship with this guy?

Yes, it's a she. She's very friendly girl and she opens up to a lot of people really quickly. She's 7w6 sx/so - maybe that has some effect. When she first meets someone, she draws them into long one-on-one conversations with her and then she maintains that degree of intimacy over a period of time, after which, they easily fall within her 'inner sanctum'. To me, an outside observer, sometimes it's almost as though once she decides she likes someone, she does. And once she decides someone will like her, she sees to it that they do.

The guy in question is an LSI, actually. She's definitely pulled him very tightly into her confidence in that she confides utmost secrets to him - but she has almost from a month into the friendship. Both idolatrie and I cringe at the things she tells him sometimes, because neither of us can imagine being that intimate that quickly with someone (in a platonic relationship - he's got a girlfriend anyway). He doesn't really go to the same places as she does, at all. His conversations are always balanced. More impersonal than personal - topics usually revolve around things that we're all mutually interested in. I mean, we're great at talking to each other - for hours and hours and hours. But when I'm talking to him, we usually keep the conversation light, fast and topic-oriented. When she talks to him, she talks about her relationships, her friends, her dreams and aspirations, her relationships to things as well - so classes she likes/dislikes, people she likes/dislikes, ideas she likes/dislikes.

I'm more ambivalent about her behaviour, because I accept that she really can care and trust people that quickly - and can care for and trust that many people. idolatrie on the other hand is more likely to see her as indiscreet and somewhat of a loose canon.

This is just like my EIE best friend at uni, Greg. He is massive on what he deems to be "etiquette" (much of which can often change its meaning to suite him at any particular time). Essentially, he's "warm" on first meeting, but he's very bitchy. He's a polite, well-mannered individual, but if he thinks someone's a dick, he basically just doesn't respect them, which means he just finds nothing to admire about them at all, and he will often pass comments across to me about the person, which I revel in, due to his Fe. I really do love spending time with him, but I'm not sure I'd really ever say "I really like him"; it just feels weird to me. However, I know our bonds are good, because he really does reveal information about himself exclusively to me.

So true lol. I'm a pretty good mimic and very good at character sketches, particularly in foregrounding the more ridiculous or bizarre elements of a person. My friend Yvonne, who is Beta ST, loves this characteristic and often when we're together, will command me to make bitchy comments about people we both know - or even people she doesn't know. When we refusing to leave Delta, idolatrie complained that I wasn't bitchy/hysterical/insane enough to be EIE - and then I pointed out some of the truly horrendous things I say simply because the comments are funny - and she 'hmmmmed' and looked confused - my bitchiness simply passes her by because she sees the joking/situational aspect of it, whilst Fi 'bitchiness' makes her go *frown*.

[aka-kitsune]

As much as I like him, 4 months of close acquaintance does not equal inner sanctum for me. 4 years, maybe. Moreover, I would never say something like that. I assume that if you are part of that 'inner sanctum' of mine, you should know it implicitly. I find saying things like that really strange, bizarre and uncomfortable. Telling people how much I like them is so completely alien to me.

Upon first thought, I wanted to disagree with this -- I love the idea of having an "Inner Sanctum" into which I invite the Worthy. Also, while I don't go announcing to people that they're included, there are certainly times I feel close enough to want to express how much someone means to me. I don't find it "bizarre, strange or uncomfortable" to do so when I feel it's accurate.

There are also people that don't allow me to be as close as I'd like. That's very frustrating for me. I can feel a connection, but it's disavowed or denied in some sense on the other's part.

The thing is, I can be so friendly to people whether or not they're in my 'inner sanctum' - how I feel personally about someone really doesn't alter the way I think is appropriate as to how I act toward them. But how I actually feel about someone matters to me inside. It doesn't change the way I behave, but it changes the content of our relationship. The degree of reliance, or confidence. And I just don't let people in that easily.

This seems more about your being a 3w4, IMO. I can't be so friendly to everyone. How I feel about someone is directly related to how warmly I treat them. While I can certainly be superficially "nice" to people, I'm always aware there's not much real sentiment behind it. And I much prefer real feelings to appearances.

In contrast, I'm very warm, but somewhat 'formal' or 'distant' (maybe even 'insincere') when I first meet someone - and closeness is marked by increasing sincerity and revealing actual information about myself, as opposed to increasing warmth.

In this, however, I'm much the same. Although I can feel close to someone rather quickly if the conditions are right. It won't take 4 years for me to feel like someone's in my Inner Rung.

[Gilly]

Heh, I definitely have an inner sanctum, but it only includes my family and a couple of select friends.

Like unefille says, getting closer to me is marked not by me being more friendly or happy, but rather the opposite; I typically put on some kind of facade for "others," and someone will know I trust them and that they are close to me when (a) I got out of my way to do things particularly for them, and (b) I am completely vulnerable with how I am feeling at that moment. I am not more "nicer" to people who I consider loved ones; I am more sincere. Granted, there are less significant levels of "closeness," ones that occur more as a result of feeling a particular affinity or likeness for another person rather than an actually closeness, that (with me) are marked by limited revelations of more personal facts, increased favoratism, more deliberate attempts at interaction, etc. However the true "inner sanctum" is marked specifically by my increased comfort in being completely vulnerable to a person; honesty and openness without boundaries.

I also agree with the sentiment of deliberate outward expression of a degree of intimacy being awkward. If you are close to me, you will know it without me saying so. I don't even think about it; I just assume that people know how close they are to me based on how I treat them and how open I am with them.

[Gilly]

I have friends from Fi quadras who seem very happy, if not altogether eager, to define our closeness in what I consider concrete terms. They will tell me exactly how close we are - the degree of intimacy they feel we share. It makes me sort of nervous, actually. I respond adequately, I think, but I know that my response is a reaction calibrated to respond adequately to their words. It's not that I don't care for them as much - but it's not something I generally consciously think much about at all.

bah, I identify so much here...my best friend, perhaps SEE, always tells me how much he appreciates me, that he loves me, that I am his closest friend...I mean, we are really fucking close, we know just about everything about each other, we help each other through tough times (I would have been un-sober for quite some time now without knowing that I had a promise to keep to him; he is my "master" of sobriety, if you will; he comes to me with his pitfalls in life, asks me for advice, reassurance, etc). We have been friends for going on 8 years and would probably both be dead without the other. There is nothing awkward about us being close to one another for me, or even expressions of it, but when he talks about it literally (says things like "Dude, you're my best friend, I don't know what I'd do without you"), it does make me feel slightly awkward. Again, I feel like I probably respond well enough, but it does make me feel a little awkward; I just see this kind of thing as "assumed." However I can see how it would be very welcome and reassuring to an LIE or ILI.

[Gilly]

I think this is a really good characterization of how Fe dominance -> Fi ignoring.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

You're letting this all go too much in your head.

I'm going to use some common sense for you.

In order to love, you have to give up yourself. There has to be that beautiful risk involved. Or babies aren't born, or people just don't fall in love and contribute to society. Whatever. But the point is you're living like a ghost being that way, and that is no way to live. It keeps yourself safe, but untouched. So you can observe your human relationships, without actually working toward them. Everytime we reflect/analyze/write about our behaviors instead of 'just living' that's exactly what we're doing. Most of us have probably just been slightly socially ostracized, and it's nothing to get all weird about.

The pain that you feel can only heal, by living. When I write memoirs I try to be granted in practical reality as much as possible because in truth, it helps me find myself. Realistic and down-to-earth compliments cheer me up the most, not abstract illusions of a ghost that was never born.

Eroticism only happens when you let yourself go. Since you're unwilling to do that (It's probably a simple reason that you tried before and got burned cause of mistrust. Or whatever, I don't know obviously) you can't find love and the sort of natural epic romance we all want. But it's okay if you're not that ready yet. I just don't see what good that post can do. You just seem sad.

There's no perfect time frame for relationships. If you want to psychoanalyze things it seems like you are simply just sacrificing your id for your ego and super ego. Or something.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

You also sound to be a bit too self-absorbed. Who the hell are you that it takes you so long to get to know. Do you realize what I'm saying? You're just not as deep as you make yourself out to be. None of us are.

Idealistically, I'd like to be an epic warrior ... or some kind of hero/social activist that becomes famous, but in all reality I am just Sam, a geeky shy gay white boy that likes playing video games and writing and being nice to people.

You need your head shrunk. ;p

[Gilly]

Or maybe not everybody is like you. Who's arrogant now?


I just don't need to hear those kinds of things from a friend. With a lover it would be an entirely different story.

[redbaron]

but when he talks about it literally (says things like "Dude, you're my best friend, I don't know what I'd do without you"), it does make me feel slightly awkward. Again, I feel like I probably respond well enough, but it does make me feel a little awkward; I just see this kind of thing as "assumed."

Same. I prefer for those sorts of things to be unspoken. I resonate with so much of what's been said in this thread. I think that with some people you definitely can have a connection within a month or less. And, depending on the situation, it can be terrifying for me. Because I know that it's not normal or usual and that makes me feel like uh-oh, this is something special, don't screw it up. then I think I must be going crazy or something because how on earth could I feel so connected to someone after only knowing them for six weeks. And, when it finally does end, due to circumstances outside of your control, years later, it's like a part of your heart was carved out of your body. People like this just aren't that easy to find, especially when you get older. And letting one go is next to impossible. But there is no gain without the risk. And I'd do it again and again and again. (such a glutton for punishment, I am)

[dbmmama]

Same. I prefer for those sorts of things to be unspoken. I resonate with so much of what's been said in this thread. I think that with some people you definitely can have a connection within a month or less. And, depending on the situation, it can be terrifying for me. Because I know that it's not normal or usual and that makes me feel like uh-oh, this is something special, don't screw it up. then I think I must be going crazy or something because how on earth could I feel so connected to someone after only knowing them for six weeks. And, when it finally does end, due to circumstances outside of your control, years later, it's like a part of your heart was carved out of your body. People like this just aren't that easy to find, especially when you get older. And letting one go is next to impossible. But there is no gain without the risk. And I'd do it again and again and again. (such a glutton for punishment, I am)

i resonate with much being said here. i've been so closed off that really only my husband i consider in any "inner sanctum." we have been like that since meeting. our love was/is so strong/deep that words cant even describe it. i only have two friends irl that come close as well as my sister. but even my sister, i have a hard time "letting in" even though we talk every day.

and i know what you mean about feeling so connected with someone after a short time, it's mind blowing. and yes, to find them as we get older.... but, we've got to keep on keeping on and allow that contrast to show us the way.

even talking about this makes me vulverable and i've hidden myself too well over the years. (cough, cough, putting my "strong" mask back on)

[betterthan]

Great topic....

Hell SEE kids are crazy!

1 person is my inner sanctum. That's an EIE, and we tell each other everything!

I used to have about 5 people in my inner sanctum. But I change so fast and there are so many sides to me and my relationships just change in closeness because I keep pushing and pulling, I just can't tell them everything about me.

People often tell me I am one of their best friends, and I feel like laughing cause it seems so wierd, its like "how?! Sure I like you, but you hardly know anything about me! You have only seen about two sides to me!". Its quite annoying, I feel like hardly anybody ever really knows me, and I feel bad, like I somehow put one over on them if they assume we are so close, and I wonder if we should be close or if they could ever handle a relationship with me at such closeness?

I get frustrated when people just pin me as something, when they have only seen a fragment of what I am. I want to shout out that I am not just a shy girl with nothing to say! And I am deeper than the bubbly, hyperactive girl!

[dbmmama]

I get frustrated when people just pin me as something, when they have only seen a fragment of what I am. I want to shout out that I am not just a shy girl with nothing to say! And I am deeper than the bubbly, hyperactive girl!

YES! except i say plenty but it's still not ALL THERE IS.

[redbaron]

YES! except i say plenty but it's still not ALL THERE IS.

Exactly. So when I take the time and effort to show them, over time, the other sides of me, and then one day they say "sorry, I can't be your friend anymore", it feels like a train ran me over. what do you mean you can't be my friend anymore? do you have any idea what this means? I am NOT indiscriminate in who I let in. And yet... sometimes life sucks.

[dbmmama]

Exactly. So when I take the time and effort to show them, over time, the other sides of me, and then one day they say "sorry, I can't be your friend anymore", it feels like a train ran me over. what do you mean you can't be my friend anymore? do you have any idea what this means? I am NOT indiscriminate in who I let in. And yet... sometimes life sucks.

wow redbaron! you have hit it on the head so much. i'm shaking inside right now. thank you for being here.

[unefille]

Upon first thought, I wanted to disagree with this -- I love the idea of having an "Inner Sanctum" into which I invite the Worthy. Also, while I don't go announcing to people that they're included, there are certainly times I feel close enough to want to express how much someone means to me. I don't find it "bizarre, strange or uncomfortable" to do so when I feel it's accurate.

I do definitely have an inner sanctum and I can name them on one hand - if I exclude my family - but I honestly can't remember the last time I told someone exactly how I felt about our closeness - I do sometimes in response to the SEE, but I take it as given that idolatrie (LSI) and my other bf, an IEI, knows it -- I've definitely never said it out loud to them. Well, maybe idolatrie but more like 'hey, people find our friendship strangely close' -- we're much more likely to talk about how close we are to third parties than each other.

This seems more about your being a 3w4, IMO. I can't be so friendly to everyone. How I feel about someone is directly related to how warmly I treat them. While I can certainly be superficially "nice" to people, I'm always aware there's not much real sentiment behind it. And I much prefer real feelings to appearances.

I guess what I mean is that my default mode is friendly and warm. I don't behave toward everyone as I would toward my good friends, though. In that respect, my behaviour is still motivated by my feelings - just in a way that might be counterintuitive to some people, like there are different scales (warmth, confidence, accommodation, sincerity of opinion etc), and on some scales my behaviour and my 'feelings' are linearly correlated and on other scales, there is no correlation.

With others, even if I like them a lot, I'll never feel THAT connection. For example I have a friend who I've know for 15 years, and she calls me her best friend - and that makes me go NO!? inside. She's a cool friend to spend time with, but that's all. That connection is not there. I never felt we could discuss "important" matters - it's quite superficial. The strangest thing is I really like her. It's just that we don't connect on any deeper level.

Yes, I forgot to say that time alone is not sufficient - but time for me is necessary. I might know after a very brief of acquaintance that this person is someone I potentially could let in, but before they have unguarded access, they need to see how I am in different situations and contexts, different moods and different places in life. And that takes time.

There is nothing awkward about us being close to one another for me, or even expressions of it, but when he talks about it literally (says things like "Dude, you're my best friend, I don't know what I'd do without you"), it does make me feel slightly awkward. Again, I feel like I probably respond well enough, but it does make me feel a little awkward; I just see this kind of thing as "assumed." However I can see how it would be very welcome and reassuring to an LIE or ILI.

Yeah, I sort of laugh. I'm close enough to this SEE now not to really be put off by it, but I sort of go O.O on the inside when one of my friends who I haven't been through all that much with - who has spoken to me a few times in the last few months - tells me exactly how much she trusts me. I do nice things for her of course and help her out when I can, because I really do like her -- but I feel like it's forcing the issue somewhat. It's not: 'I love you', it's: 'I trust you because we're really close - I wouldn't be able to trust other people as much - X asked but I wouldn't have let that happen - it's because with you I feel confident' etc. I just don't know how to react.

I think this is a really good characterization of how Fe dominance -> Fi ignoring.

I think so far, the reactions from the SLEs, IEIs and EIEs reflect Fi PoLR, Fe-creative/Fi-demonstrative and Fe-dominance/Fi-ignoring respectively quite well.

[unefille]

You're letting this all go too much in your head.

I'm going to use some common sense for you.

In order to love, you have to give up yourself. There has to be that beautiful risk involved.

There's no perfect time frame for relationships. If you want to psychoanalyze things it seems like you are simply just sacrificing your id for your ego and super ego. Or something.

I'm sort of confounded by this. On the one hand, I'm a 3w4 sp/sx - telling me I struggle with vulnerability and intimacy is pretty much stating the obvious and nothing I haven't known since I was 12, if not earlier. On the other hand, that has almost nothing to do with my post. I draw a clear line between romantic and platonic relationships and I know full well that in order to love, the first thing I have to be capable of doing is letting myself be vulnerable to them.

But I see no purpose to making myself openly vulnerable to everyone or to 'taking a risk' with them, 'letting it all out' or 'being real', especially if 'being real' requires me to be someone that isn't me in the first place. That's not my end goal, nor my ball game.

You also sound to be a bit too self-absorbed. Who the hell are you that it takes you so long to get to know. Do you realize what I'm saying? You're just not as deep as you make yourself out to be. None of us are.

Idealistically, I'd like to be an epic warrior ... or some kind of hero/social activist that becomes famous, but in all reality I am just Sam, a geeky shy gay white boy that likes playing video games and writing and being nice to people.

You need your head shrunk. ;p

I think you're projecting.

I never said anything about being deep or 'oh no one can understand me' or being...an epic warrior?

People often tell me I am one of their best friends, and I feel like laughing cause it seems so wierd, its like "how?! Sure I like you, but you hardly know anything about me! You have only seen about two sides to me!". Its quite annoying, I feel like hardly anybody ever really knows me, and I feel bad, like I somehow put one over on them if they assume we are so close, and I wonder if we should be close or if they could ever handle a relationship with me at such closeness?

I get frustrated when people just pin me as something, when they have only seen a fragment of what I am. I want to shout out that I am not just a shy girl with nothing to say! And I am deeper than the bubbly, hyperactive girl!

Exactly. So when I take the time and effort to show them, over time, the other sides of me, and then one day they say "sorry, I can't be your friend anymore", it feels like a train ran me over. what do you mean you can't be my friend anymore? do you have any idea what this means? I am NOT indiscriminate in who I let in. And yet... sometimes life sucks.

YES. And I don't see it as a self-satisfied proclamation of being 'deep' - but rather that behaviour is somewhat situational? I'm not sure. I do feel that sometimes I tell people a lot about myself and the more I say, the less they actually know, because the information just piles out. So I don't trust my ability to 'convey myself' to someone, because I sort of realise the limitations of my ability to distill myself - which is why having them actually 'experience' significant parts of my life with me is so essential -- part of (and only part of) being in is when I don't have to explain myself to them and know that they understand where I'm coming from.

[redbaron]

YES. And I don't see it as a self-satisfied proclamation of being 'deep' - but rather that behaviour is somewhat situational? I'm not sure. I do feel that sometimes I tell people a lot about myself and the more I say, the less they actually know, because the information just piles out. So I don't trust my ability to 'convey myself' to someone, because I sort of realise the limitations of my ability to distill myself - which is why having them actually 'experience' significant parts of my life with me is so essential -- they're in when I don't have to explain myself to them and know that they understand where I'm coming from.

Right. This is one of the reasons why I like to blog because I feel like I can reveal different little parts of myself over time and through my experiences that otherwise might not come up in conversation. I'm NOT very good at conveying myself in person. I end up as the listener and come away knowing way more about the other person than they know about me. Which is okay with me. But over time, these parts of me come out and eventually I start to feel like they might actually know me. I think what I meant when I said that sometimes I can have a connection with someone very early-on is more than I feel the POTENTIAL for myself wanting to open up to that person, not that we already have that close of a relationship. Obviously that takes time but... well I had this friend and I'll never forget the moment when I realized we would be friends. It was like everything clicked inside of me and I knew, I just knew I could (eventually) show him who I was, the REAL me, not some surface representation of myself that the general public knows. And gosh, that is priceless. And I don't have him anymore but I miss him. And I don't even know if he knows what it meant to me. He may have an inkling. Anyway, it's neither here nor there.

[aka-kitsune]

Exactly. So when I take the time and effort to show them, over time, the other sides of me, and then one day they say "sorry, I can't be your friend anymore", it feels like a train ran me over. what do you mean you can't be my friend anymore? do you have any idea what this means? I am NOT indiscriminate in who I let in. And yet... sometimes life sucks.

Do they actually tell you "Sorry, I can't be your friend anymore"??? Because I just usually end up with the slow fade. No explanation, no closure.

I think what I meant when I said that sometimes I can have a connection with someone very early-on is more than I feel the POTENTIAL for myself wanting to open up to that person, not that we already have that close of a relationship. Obviously that takes time but... well I had this friend and I'll never forget the moment when I realized we would be friends. It was like everything clicked inside of me and I knew, I just knew I could (eventually) show him who I was, the REAL me, not some surface representation of myself that the general public knows. And gosh, that is priceless. And I don't have him anymore but I miss him. And I don't even know if he knows what it meant to me. He may have an inkling. Anyway, it's neither here nor there.

I've heard it frequently said that E4s do this kind of "anticipation" with relationships. It certainly seems indicative of well-developed to perceive what *could* be. I can get quite caught up in the sense of potential, to the degree that I fail to see that the current conditions are not exactly conducive. In fact, I'm now kinda recovering from a disappointment in this regard. I believed so strongly in the potential of a connection with someone that I was blind to an actuality that doesn't allow him to really be that open with anyone.

At any rate, he won't let me get close.

[redbaron]

Do they actually tell you "Sorry, I can't be your friend anymore"??? Because I just usually end up with the slow fade. No explanation, no closure.


I've heard it frequently said that E4s do this kind of "anticipation" with relationships. It certainly seems indicative of well-developed to perceive what *could* be. I can get quite caught up in the sense of potential, to the degree that I fail to see that the current conditions are not exactly conducive. In fact, I'm now kinda recovering from a disappointment in this regard. I believed so strongly in the potential of a connection with someone that I was blind to an actuality that doesn't allow him to really be that open with anyone.

At any rate, he won't let me get close.

I'm sorry. I know exactly what you mean. There were things I knew about this guy that should have tipped me off but I ignored it in favor of that connection which I couldn't turn down. Anyway, most people just let it fade but this is that situation with that guy whose wife is too jealous for us to be friends. maybe I'll pm ya.

[Satan]

Great topic....

Hell SEE kids are crazy!

1 person is my inner sanctum. That's an EIE, and we tell each other everything!

I used to have about 5 people in my inner sanctum. But I change so fast and there are so many sides to me and my relationships just change in closeness because I keep pushing and pulling, I just can't tell them everything about me.

Heh, I don't tell anyone everything about me!

People often tell me I am one of their best friends, and I feel like laughing cause it seems so wierd, its like "how?! Sure I like you, but you hardly know anything about me! You have only seen about two sides to me!". Its quite annoying, I feel like hardly anybody ever really knows me, and I feel bad, like I somehow put one over on them if they assume we are so close, and I wonder if we should be close or if they could ever handle a relationship with me at such closeness?

Hmm, I knew a girl that told me that I was her best friend or something, and I told her that she should get more friends. It's ilke I kind of "expected" that she should have a better friend than me.

Although in retrospect, when we haven't seen each other in a while, we gel reasonably well reasonably quickly...

I get frustrated when people just pin me as something, when they have only seen a fragment of what I am. I want to shout out that I am not just a shy girl with nothing to say! And I am deeper than the bubbly, hyperactive girl!

i thought that you were a guy!

[Satan]

Exactly. So when I take the time and effort to show them, over time, the other sides of me, and then one day they say "sorry, I can't be your friend anymore", it feels like a train ran me over. what do you mean you can't be my friend anymore? do you have any idea what this means? I am NOT indiscriminate in who I let in. And yet... sometimes life sucks.

Heh that sound like fun!

When I was young I used to say that kind of thing ..

Some people kind of walked off, and some people kind of reacted. Some people walked off, and then reacted. And some people walked off, reacted, then got told that you're meant to get pissed off at the person that pissed you off. And then reacted at me.

I think in a way, that if someone can just throw you off like that, and you're okay with that, then they weren't important. If the other person doesn't like it. Well I for one can be "friends" with someone who "hates" me or "despises" me or "doesn't like me".

But I can also not be friends with someone, and still associate with them. It's like they're an acquaintance.

Anyway, I'm sure you know the difference between a tease, and flat-out long term rejection.

But yeah, along that same track;

"Who are you?"
"What are you doing here?"
"We don't want any"
"Why are you talking to me, don't you know I don't like you."
"I'm very selective with who is important to me"
"You're not important"
"You're insignificant"
"Why would I want to be friends with you?"

Anyway, there's a natural progression:

"Who are you" -> "You know who I am"
"What are you doing here" -> blink/shy/back down a little
"We don't want any" -> "I'm not selling anything"
"Why are you talking to me?" -> "I won't stay long. Let me say what I have to say"
"I'm very selective" -> "How do you think that makes other people feel?"
"You're not important" -> "You're not important to me either"
"Why would I want to be friends" -> "I don't know, it's good to have friends"

Anyway ..

With *NEW* people, if say Who are you .. you can get someone trying to "explain" who they are .. if you say what are you doing here to some people they can say how they're "meant" to be here, and that it's okay, and that they're not causing any problems and so forth... or tell you who they know.

So what I think is necessary, is to keep doing those things, as as long as distance doesn't increase (by much) when you do such things, it means that you're close/tight.

[Satan]

Do they actually tell you "Sorry, I can't be your friend anymore"??? Because I just usually end up with the slow fade. No explanation, no closure.

do you reciprocate.

I've heard it frequently said that E4s do this kind of "anticipation" with relationships. It certainly seems indicative of well-developed to perceive what *could* be. I can get quite caught up in the sense of potential, to the degree that I fail to see that the current conditions are not exactly conducive. In fact, I'm now kinda recovering from a disappointment in this regard. I believed so strongly in the potential of a connection with someone that I was blind to an actuality that doesn't allow him to really be that open with anyone.

sounds complicated.

At any rate, he won't let me get close.

maybe you're too weak.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Oh please. The only difference between a romantic partner and a best friend is a romantic partner is someone whom you are sexually attracted to. A lover = best friend with benefits. At the best ideal, that's as good as it gets. We just categorize the affectionate feelings as being different due to social customs, but they're really not. If you always want to control and dictate what you want in a romantic partner, how will you find anybody? I just don't understand, I'm sorry.

I take the bad with all the good because I know when I'm talking to another human being it's going to be naturally unpredictable no matter what. The more I get to know them the more they can't surprise me of course, but we only know few people that closely. Sometimes what people say appears a bit creepy, because it's like they want a slave instead of a human. If you're not prepared yet for people's natural tendency to throw you a curveball, a relationship is not for you.

You have to simply let love in, whether it's a lover or best friend or the person at Wal-Mart that greets you. A mindful awareness, you can still control how much you want in without being a total closed-off basketcase. I was so overwhelmed before because other people loved me TOO much and I had to become a hermit for 3 years because I couldn't stand it. I hate that kind of attention myself. I kept denying all types of love because I'd rather fantasize about love than really experience it. But then I woke up one day and realized my life was empty because there was not any true love in it. Yay for introverted sryfe!

[Ezra]

(actually, the more hyperbolic, the more easily it comes out - particularly if it makes obscure, cultural allusions at the same time, like a coded in-joke)

LOL

I pointed out some of the truly horrendous things I say simply because the comments are funny - and she 'hmmmmed' and looked confused - my bitchiness simply passes her by because she sees the joking/situational aspect of it, whilst Fi 'bitchiness' makes her go *frown*.

Haha, that's like Leon. Our humour is truly edgy, and people like my mother and my other best friend, Liam (both of whom are Ne/Si) just don't appreciate it as we do.

[redbaron]

Haha, that's like Leon. Our humour is truly edgy, and people like my mother and my other best friend, Liam (both of whom are Ne/Si) just don't appreciate it as we do.

I've always liked edgy humor (my IEI brother does also) and my EII mother used to get this look of mild shock in her eyes. hahaha Still makes me laugh to think of it.

[idolatrie]

I'd rather fellate a knife

Callum Keith Rennie in Hard Core Logo. HOT.

When someone says "I love you", girl or guy (man-love),

BRO-MANCE!

I very rarely say that I like someone. I say someone is "cool", or "awesome" or "really good at x", or I pick out some other trait or characteristic of said someone, but I never say that I actually like them. I think there have been a few times when I've said to Leon "awww man, I love you!" and I've experienced a genuinely happy, warm emotion just being around him, but these times are definitely few.

Yes, completely agree. I find it easy to express a judgement of something, to declare that something is 'awesome' or whatever. But telling people I like them, or that I even like something, is harder. I don't feel as...confident in expressing that? And when I do, it usually means something, and that makes me feel unnecessarily and abruptly vulnerable. But at the same time, I've learnt that you just say these things because the dominant social discourse dictates that you should. So if someone saves my bacon at the last minute I'll say 'Oh my god, I fucking love you, thanks darling', and well, obviously I don't *mean* it. When I do mean it, I don't really feel the need to verbally express it? Like, obviously I do love people. But they should *know* it, I don't ever stare into their eyes and go 'do you know, I love you,' or whatever. I mean...wtf?

Like unefille says, getting closer to me is marked not by me being more friendly or happy, but rather the opposite; I typically put on some kind of facade for "others," and someone will know I trust them and that they are close to me when (a) I got out of my way to do things particularly for them, and (b) I am completely vulnerable with how I am feeling at that moment. I am not more "nicer" to people who I consider loved ones; I am more sincere.

That is exactly the distinction for me. I'm more *real*, more my authentic self with people in my 'inner sanctum' (which, dude, is like the most pretentious descriptor of besties that I've ever come across...) and I'm less afraid of being 'silly' around them. I trust that in times of need, they will be there for me - and that's twofold: I trust that they will help me, and that I *can* show them that I need that help.

Well, maybe idolatrie but more like 'hey, people find our friendship strangely close' -- we're much more likely to talk about how close we are to third parties than each other.

Yeah, I definitely think this is the case. I mean, we never sit around going 'omg, you're my best friend!' 'omg, you're my best friend too!' 'omg, I love you!' 'omg, I love you toooo!' 'coz like, dude, that's like mutual verbal maturbation and just ick. But like, everyone else I know just *knows* that we're best friends. If I say 'I've only talked to one person in the last two weeks' (that was true on monday, sadly), the other person in the conversation knew that I meant unefille without me needing to say it. We're just really obviously best friends.

Oh please. The only difference between a romantic partner and a best friend is a romantic partner is someone whom you are sexually attracted to. A lover = best friend with benefits. At the best ideal, that's as good as it gets. We just categorize the affectionate feelings as being different due to social customs, but they're really not. If you always want to control and dictate what you want in a romantic partner, how will you find anybody? I just don't understand, I'm sorry.

I...really don't think a romantic partner and best friends differ only by the amount of sex being had. Really, truly and fundamentally. I mean, I do think that different types of love are qualitatively different. I have a best friend, and what I'm looking for in a partner is *not* just a male version of her. I think there's a different degree to which you're willing to compromise with a partner compared to a friend. I wouldn't, say, change my planned path in life for my best friend, but I probably would (or would expect to) for my SO. I don't think either partner or best friend would fulfil the same role in my life, and that the two roles would be ones where they compete in my life. I mean, ok, this is just speculation because the relationships I've had so far have not come anywhere close to my friendship with unefille and have been clearly subordinate. But like, no. For me, best friend and partner totally aren't the same thing at all.

[unefille]

LOL

Haha, that's like Leon. Our humour is truly edgy, and people like my mother and my other best friend, Liam (both of whom are Ne/Si) just don't appreciate it as we do.

I've always liked edgy humor (my IEI brother does also) and my EII mother used to get this look of mild shock in her eyes. hahaha Still makes me laugh to think of it.

This reminds me that today I got reprimanded at work for telling a student: (imagine a very stern, quietly threatening voice - I love theatrics) IF YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR HOMEWORK DONE BY NEXT WEEK, I WILL GARROTE YOU.

My LSE boss didn't appreciate my sense of humour - he thought it was much too threatening and might scare (????) students and wasn't the 'message we wanted to send'. I mean, the student in question is SLE. He just lol'd.

I told idolatrie. She laughed. A lot. And then I told her that my boss was serious. And she was: She couldn't understand why, in any situation in the world, anyone would possibly take me seriously - it wasn't a complete joke, but it was incredibly exaggerated for effect.

@ B&D - given that any moment I have many friends and only one person I'm in a 'relationship' with - and that person I will possibly consider owning property with and rearing children with (omg heternormativity), a lot more than simply the incidence of sex distinguishes the two.

[aka-kitsune]

maybe you're too weak.

I'm not sure what I wrote that would lead you to make this kind of assumption. Especially considering you are aware of 0.01% of the actual situation.

[Khamelion]

There are so many rings to my inner sanctum it's not even funny.

There is a special ring for the sorts of people I've only known for certain amounts of time, and an elite ring for those I've known for a VERY long time. And mannnny fine rings in between. This mainly has to do with trust and learning over time that I can't trust (by making the mistake of doing it in the first place)

But maybe (because this is how I do) when she said inner sanctum, she didn't mean the MOST inner sanctum? As in, she meant that he was IN on some level but not necessarily at the level you and she are on? I dunno lol. Just speculating here!

[redbaron]

There are so many rings to my inner sanctum it's not even funny.

There is a special ring for the sorts of people I've only known for certain amounts of time, and an elite ring for those I've known for a VERY long time. And mannnny fine rings in between. This mainly has to do with trust and learning over time that I can't trust (by making the mistake of doing it in the first place)

But maybe (because this is how I do) when she said inner sanctum, she didn't mean the MOST inner sanctum? As in, she meant that he was IN on some level but not necessarily at the level you and she are on? I dunno lol. Just speculating here!

well that's a good point! I guess come to think of it, I have different rings also. Hmm.

[Khamelion]

i will also mention that when it comes to my EIE friend, i kind of like our little club that we have and keeping it exclusive...it's a game of some kind. it isn't actually an exclusive club unless we are somewhere where we don't "fit in" and if Im fitting in and she isn't, and if I don't come to her and be in her club...than she'll get upset and sometimes say I wasn't being a good friend or something like that. When she fits in and I don't...well I handle it better but usually I end up getting in trouble...which I'll blame her for later. lol.


I think I feel this way with a lot of my close friends. Like its a special club, each friend having their own club with me. It's alright if they mix sometimes, but sometimes it really disorients me. For instance, having my close SLE friend and close EIE friend together at the same time. This might just be an overload of Beta though...because I'd be absolutely annoyed the entire time and could barely stand to be with them. (Being drunk helped but that didn't happen often with those two...and when it did...I just ended up alienating myself by getting worked up and not being appreciated. wah woe is me lol)


sorry if im going off topic

[redbaron]

i will also mention that when it comes to my EIE friend, i kind of like our little club that we have and keeping it exclusive...it's a game of some kind. it isn't actually an exclusive club unless we are somewhere where we don't "fit in" and if Im fitting in and she isn't, and if I don't come to her and be in her club...than she'll get upset and sometimes say I wasn't being a good friend or something like that. When she fits in and I don't...well I handle it better but usually I end up getting in trouble...which I'll blame her for later. lol.


I think I feel this way with a lot of my close friends. Like its a special club, each friend having their own club with me. It's alright if they mix sometimes, but sometimes it really disorients me.

clubs, hm, yes. I had an exclusive club with my best friend in jr. high and high school. The only time we spent together was with just the two of us. whenever her boyfriend was around she'd either be with him or with me, there was no hanging out with both of us at the same time. which I guess was okay with me cause I didn't care for him much. we never hung out in a group. I had another friend, more recently as an adult with whom I sometimes hung out with others but when we were with a group, it wasn't nearly as fun. In fact, I often found myself bored to tears! Is that odd? Often I find that I want all the attention from my friend. I don't like to share. It's not even that I want to do all the talking, no that's not it, I just want the other person to be talking to ME! lol