This is consistent with bothOriginally Posted by Chryssie
Ignoring and Vulnerable, IMO. All very strong signs of subdued and cautious
Creative vs Ignoring, or
Suggestive vs Vulnerable.
Se polr has always been very interesting and mysterious to me, because Se is my lead, I suppose.
Although I could certainly see how having Se as polr could add to one's existing socially avoidant tendencies, I do not think that it strictly is a result of Se polr.
I've struggled with social anxiety as well. I actually went through a period in my life where I had agoraphobia and had to be homeschooled, and to this day I still struggle with socially avoidant feelings which come and go. I have also witnessed other SLEs with similar issues, and have seen examples of social anxiety problems in people of many other types.
It comes across to me that deep down, Se polr types are very strong and determined individuals, but that they haven't been allowed to develop or express their willfulness for some reason, because of either society, or their own principles, placing restrictions upon them their whole lives. The issue of their own independence, versus their dependence and interdependence on (the will, as a result of the perceptions of) others, seems to be a highlight in their lives as an ongoing existential thing.
Ironically, these are issues that I worry about as well. The concept of and having to accept the reality of my dependence on others is inflammatory to my ego, and I try to be in denial of this notion as much as possible. It seems to me that Se polrs throughout life develop their ability to work with the notion of their interdependence with others in society, whereas I have difficulty seeing this as a trait I would ever take on in my life.
Last edited by niffer; 05-21-2016 at 04:56 AM.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
It was just a thought so yeah I in retrospect in think I might of been wrong. However I would argue my previous statement is still applicable to ILE.This is not how it works. The SEE is the one invading others' personal space, not the LII. Wanting to maintain the harmony of one's personal space is. And it's about passivity, too.
Well if that was the case I'd be long dead.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
If Se is about invading people's personal space, does it then follow that Ni allows their personal space to be invaded (by anyone)?
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
From here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/73If Se is about invading people's personal space, does it then follow that Ni allows their personal space to be invaded (by anyone)?
How I understood it is moving out of the way, before the ball hits you in your face (/seeing it coming).White (Introverted) Intuition
shorthand designation: Ni
All processes take place in time; they have their roots in the past and their continuation in the future. Time is the correlation between events that follow each other. This perceptual element provides information about the sequence of events and people's deeds, about their cause and effect relationship, and about participants' attitudes towards this — that is, about people's feelings that these relationships engender.
Such an individual perceives information from without as feelings about the future, past, and present. For example, a sense of hurriedness, calmness, or heatedness, a sense of timeliness or prematureness, a sense of proper or improper life rhythm, a sense of impending danger or safety, anticipation, fear of being late, a sense of seeing the future, anxiety about what lies ahead, and so forth. At any given moment of one's life one has such a sense of time. One cannot live outside of time or be indifferent toward it. Thus, a certain sense of time is an integral part of the individual's psychological state at any given moment. This perceptual element defines a person's ability or inability to forecast and plan for the future, evade all sorts of troubles, avoid taking wrong actions, and learn from past experience.
When this element is in the leading position, the individual possesses innate strategic abilities and is able to choose the most optimal moments for different activities: when to give battle, if necessary, and when to avoid battle, when that would be more appropriate. Interaction in time might be interpreted as the ability to avoid collisions with objects and hence avoid objects' reflection within oneself.
You could pull it together with parts from here.
Ftr I believe, that most people are not big on letting people invade their personal space (independent from fxns). Maybe having thin boundaries or thick boundaries plays a role.Ni as leading function in IEI (INFp; Esenin) and ILI (INTp; Balzac) - this person considers himself to be very ideological, consistent, principled, and is very conservative in this. Becomes irritated by those who criticize his ideas. He lives by the "wholeness" of the internal situation. Often able to see "through" things, to the inner essence of something or someone. Romantic and idealist. Lives by his internal harmony, tranquility, serenity, is able to draw inspiration within himself, and gets annoyed by those who try to disturb it. Generally does not like when people try to look inside of him, gets frustrated and angry when this happens. Strives to be inwardly calm in all situations and internally consistent. "Fluid like a river": involuntarily adjusts himself to the interlocutor in conversation by taking form of consciousness that is best fitted for the situation. By this he isn't playing a role, his consciousness is simply multifaceted and he is directed by his inner "wholeness". That is, he simply presents a version of himself. Communicating with you, he always feels your moods as if he is living through them together with you, adjusts himself to this. Loves to introspect and to meditate. In case of failure, can make a qualitative self-analysis. Being present in some place he as if tunes himself out, tries to become invisible like a chameleon, especially if he perceives it as a threat to his inner tranquility: for example, in the workplace so that no one bothers him. Can even hide it in some clever way: arrange a barricade of folders so that behind them he is not visible. Does not like restless, internally discordant individuals, as their state can get transmitted to him, will try to escape from their company at any price. This is especially funny in a situation where a male representative of this type flees from ladies, and they pursue him like prey, because they feel that he has something that they so desperately need: inner peace. But for him this inner "wholeness" is not the product but material for inner consumption, so he can only share this with a small number of people, but sometimes someone might snatch a piece - this makes him very angry. Often, especially in circle of family, he becomes a critic, since deviation in behavior away from his principles turns him aggressive. If in another situation he will somehow restrain himself, at home he may allow himself to explode with anger.
I wouldn't say it's about invading people's personal space. It's a common manifestation though, say with playful violence and things like that. An
I don't really have a problem with my *space* being invaded, I guess. But I HATE when my internal space is invaded (probed?), my thoughts and emotions and so on. But you've brought up a really good point, bc where is the line drawn? It's probably up to the Ni user to draw the line, but they may not and then it's all over.
I remember being in an awful situation with an SLE, it was deep into the relationship when all the giggles and fun were in the past, but we were still stuck in each other's orbits. I had a strange case of my Fe-creative being shut down, it might have been bc the SLE was kind of with someone else, and that person was in the picture before me, so she had dibs and ethically I felt powerless.
Anyway this is when the SLE started encroaching on my internal space, saying things like "I know how you feel." This might seem weird, but that was like the worst possible thing he could say, it felt much more violating than anything else he had done. So the Ni user needs to use either Fe or Te (second function needs to be strong) to draw a fucking line and keep people out of their internal harmony.
Seems like that would be moreeven.
what are you referring to? that I don't mind if my space is invaded, or that I don't like my inner space to invaded?Seems like that would be more
Both these could apply to INxx in general, I think. When my living space is taken over it feels like I'm getting attention, people want to spend time with me. So I don't mind. But Ni in particular is all about having an unknowable separate world, so any intrusions there are very unwelcome
Something I think is possibly Se-PoLR related is either succumbing too easily or resisting too strongly to felt attempts at control. (Perhaps this has already been discussed in this thread; I haven't read it all the way through recently.)
Someone forcing logic on me is also different than someone forcing morals or opinions about people/relationships, too. With cold logic, I can often hold my own well enough but I don't care as much, so I while can react more strongly or weakly than I "should" it's not as big a deal to me. I usually just end up feeling steamrolled (not good, but retreat is an option I take and I don't feel terrible about that usually). When it comes to my personal feelings and opinions, especially as it relates to people and related morals, I can get really stubborn and even vehement. It's like, "No, you are NOT going to tell me what to do here." Even if I end up changing my mind later, I hate feeling pushed and will react negatively against whoever is doing that. It's my area of confidence and you better have rational reasons behind suggesting I change. Better yet, give me data and let me alone to make up my own mind at my own pace. And, if after all data and consideration, I still maintain my stance, Deal With It.
Being forced into action is also really unsettling, and either I cave in shock or I dig in my heels. Again, I might (and often do) reconsider, but unless I trust you that you know what you're doing I really would like to have time to decide this myself.
Pressuring me to be intuitive just makes me laugh or mildly annoyed.
Trying to make me more emotive, group feel-focused, atmosphere controlling, etc. can make me feel guilty. I understand its objective value. But I'm aware of my own limits and can push back on that (again, with varying degrees of my own force, which may be less or more than is actually needed).
Perhaps the only area where I'm internally sometimes ok with caving into pressure is when it makes me physically more comfortable. Except that isn't really "force" in my opinion when it's done well. "Here, have/eat/drink/do this thing that will make you feel better." Can't argue with that.
Yes, yes, I know Se is more than "force" and I've abominably simplified IEs.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
I love LSE @Sol
-
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I would say that
How would somebody "intrude" in this unknowable separate world, as a practical example?But Ni in particular is all about having an unknowable separate world, so any intrusions there are very unwelcome
Pressure is definitely a good description. People respond very differently to pressure - some see it as helpful, like the other person wants you to succeed and they're gonna do what it takes to help you do that.
I haven't really thought about the different types of pressure as you describe them. I find that when I have to make a decision in the moment, I sometimes need to take a step back or it's easy to not know what I want, and therefore cave to pressure. (The classic example is a salesman trying to get you to buy something.) But if I have time to think about what I want in advance and why, then I will be extremely resistant to anyone trying to pressure me into changing it. Being forced to action is annoying but when you're an adult it's pretty easy to avoid that.
This attitude is the greatest thing in the world for Fe-Role people.
Especially when it comes from someone who still actually has strong Fe, and isn't just kind of cranky Fe POLR stuff - that's funny, but it's not as soothing or helpful.
That quote is soothing.
Perhaps the only area where I'm internally sometimes ok with caving into pressure is when it makes me physically more comfortable. Except that isn't really "force" in my opinion when it's done well. "Here, have/eat/drink/do this thing that will make you feel better." Can't argue with that.
Now that I think about it, this is the only kind of caving in I respect or enjoy.
"Seducing" beta NFs feels much differently as they need all of this weird Se Fe stuff, like putting on a show, it feels tired and childish eventually, or like they can't deal with sanity and normalcy and always need "more" stuff. Same with LII, their constant want for strong, directive, 4d Fe wears on my role hard and I feel so taxed over time.
I enjoy "applying pressure" in that way, but I only really enjoy it if other things are checked off - like it being of someone's consent, and them being very clear about their relational and personal views towards me. I don't like applying that pressure (Si or Si+Se) if its someone I don't know or as a means to establish knowing someone, or forging or deepening a relationship. I have done that I suppose, but it feels entirely superficial and insubstantial.
In terms of Se/Si dynamics, by far in person my most enjoyable situations have been with people with basically Se POLR or weak Se and not- 4d Fe. I've actually written about how 4d Fe can be a bit distracting in this sense, and how the 4d Fi of Fi dominants, and much more so EIIs (bc they don't have strong Se) is appealing and more comfortable.
"Except that isn't really "force" in my opinion when it's done well"
Yes, there is a willingness about it, which is ideal. and also.... even when others are "compliant" in that way, if they are doing it as a way to Fe push or provoke me, it's eventually something that agitates me. But as quoted there, it's a sense of someone being totally ok with being in the passengers seat of someone else wants to be in the drivers seat, so to say.
Note: this is in no way saying that Se PORLS are doormats or "dead logs" sensually, it's more, they just prefer someone with strong Se and Si to instigate certain things or establish that certain t hings are normal or possible.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Yes, I can appreciate that application of force / pressure, the kind that makes space for me.
When I cave to doing it's often either because I'm taken by surprise and overwhelmed (though there's a chance I'll just freeze and back out a little too quickly) or because I trust / feel favorably toward whoever it is. It's still not really something I enjoy.
Sometimes. But, yeah, it's definitely easier to maintain my boundaries the older I get.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
I think in the best sense delta STs move to create environments and functionality that promote this
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
@Suz Ni type like my mom enjoys organizing the personal space so that there is the Te part directing Se where to put things and what to clean up. They both like stuff, like products, hair skin pictures furniture, nick backs What NiTe does is find places and cleans these items.,,
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Perhaps you should have it tattooed on your forehead, so you won't have to say it that often.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Lol
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Even when you run smack into it?
Another way of saying this is Se PoLRs appreciate people who take initiative?
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
This is a good way of phrasing it. To me, such pressure is just intrusive. To tell me to "JUST DO IT!!!" is actually demotivating in a way and just oversimplifies things and causes misunderstanding. I need the right conditions first before I can just go out and do something. My Si helps to establish those right conditions- like being in a comfortable environment.Pressure is definitely a good description. People respond very differently to pressure - some see it as helpful, like the other person wants you to succeed and they're gonna do what it takes to help you do that.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
Oh, I freeze. It has the opposite effect that the pusher wants.
Speaking of pushing, I've been told by a self-confessed manipulator that I'm hard to manipulate. Apparently it's not so much a matter of being aware of the attempted manipulation as it is... I have my own path, or something like that. I "never fall for it" though tbh I usually only see the attempts after the fact.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
There are variations - one being that youa re Sp first.
But yes, even in the struggles, that someone can be counted on to be a certain way is overall a soothing thing.
"Another way of saying this is Se PoLRs appreciate people who take initiative?[/QUOTE]
Probably. their dual has strong, 4d Ne, even if its unvalued, and the more I go the more I see that having 1d Ne tends to appreciate that kind of initiative, even in this case. It tends to be the starter, or the ingnition for other things, even if the person with 4d Se isn't always "in the drivers seat"; it's a bit like by that Se being there, it sort of facilitates the whole deal
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
My Se PoLR manifests in an extreme dislike of people using Se to evade Ti rules.
This is accurate to me
IEI, ILI (Suggestive Se)
The IEI was subconsciously thinking “Others ought to tell me what I should do. A good place is the place where there is action, movement, where work gets done". There are times when she finds herself on her way some place or sitting by a campfire. It is as if she was "inserted" in unplanned circumstances. She could not resist the external influence. “They took me with them, so I went along. I have no will of my own.” This type should be attentive to their choices. Do these things correspond to the goals of my life? Will they take me there where I want to be? A Tutankhamon may seek to escape later when she realizes that it is not where she wants to be. It is too late though; people reap what they sow. On the one hand she is in slavery to other people, and on the other hand she is a skilled manipulator of the external relationships. When a Tutankhamon realizes what she is reaping, instead of repenting she resorts to harassing the people who got her involved and looks for ways to get out of the mess, produced by her irresponsibility, using the strengths of her type. For them, the picture of "victim" comes to mind.
“Do something with me”. People of this type can hardly resist persuasion: when pressed to do something, they are almost defenseless. A Balzac may 'unexpectedly' find herself involved in a strange activity. They often need an external push in order to do something. On the other hand, they are unable to resist the pressure. A person of the opposite sex comes to a Balzac and says: “I am moving in, I will live with you”. – “Well, OK”. A Balzac has even weaker resistibility than a Tutankhamon. The latter at least pays attention to the aesthetics of the situation; the former does not manage to do even that. Probably women of this type always produce an impression of cold, aloof, difficult. This is a way they subconsciously establish the maximum personal distance.
EII, LII (Problem-solving Se)
This type utilizes devalued independently to solve the problems that arise with valued and defended . In this sense, it is most often colored and restricted by Si's intention. Firstly, understand Ne too as perception, especially the predominant physical perception of EIIs and LIIs. These types base most of their physical perception not on sensation, but on Ne--sensing not the form and action of objects, but "the way they should be or are potentially to be." Sensoring goes ignored, in place of a sought vision of harmony to the external situation. Where Se sees the form and action of the outside, Ne sees the potential and ideal workings of the outside. In a sense, external Se influence conflicts with this type in obvious contrast to the welcoming disposition of IEI and ILIs. Things are sensed by this type, but they do not normally seek complementary involvement with the immediate presence and action of these sensations.
Se, the immediate form of things, instead suggests ways for the EII and LII to solve the personal problems of Si. These would be the types who are NOT stirred into action suggestively: unlike the DS function which is suggestable and open-minded, sensoring in EII and LII is independent-minded. They have some independence in using Se on their own, some idea for one's personal situation and one's own infantile purposes, but they seek to not fluidly participate with others in this area as it is most dissociative. Because EII and LII don't seek a lot of help or suggestion with Si, they don't either Se. Se is externally resisted, but in restriction to one's Si HA it is independently used:
"Problems are solved in the sphere of external forms, actions. For example, if there are health problems, certain steps should be made; when a Dostoevsky catches a cold she makes a cup of hot herbal tea, mixes an antiseptic gargle, starts doing exercises... Even if their main interests lie in a sphere remote from medicine, they are often well versed in this area." Se is the immediate form to external sensations, so perception goes here in defense.
"When a problem with physical feeling occurs Robespierre thinks, “We must do something!” He/she turns to cross-country skiing, karate, bathing in the ice-cold water, sauna, other physical exercises, diets, fasting, urine-therapy, routine schedule, workouts, etc. I need to fortify my sensory ability; I need to be armed and dangerous."
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Um, just, no, especially to the bold. Was this written by @Sol?Although
For a full sensation account, one must look to the Si description. We think of Se as "the outer form of sensation, compared to the other." Both are used, but when comparing this outer glimpse of Se to the inner iceberg of Si in the EII and LII, any involvement, form, and action is always characterized by one initial inquiry: "How will such activity make me feel sensually? Is there potential harm to my Si, my internal state, is this good for me, or bad?" It is instead Ne which brings all the real perception and emphasis in the lives of the EII and LII, where Se appears quite limited and submissive to Si.The IEI was subconsciously thinking “Others ought to tell me what I should do. A good place is the place where there is action, movement, where work gets done". There are times when she finds herself on her way some place or sitting by a campfire. It is as if she was "inserted" in unplanned circumstances. She could not resist the external influence. “They took me with them, so I went along. I have no will of my own.” This type should be attentive to their choices. Do these things correspond to the goals of my life? Will they take me there where I want to be? A Tutankhamon may seek to escape later when she realizes that it is not where she wants to be. It is too late though; people reap what they sow. On the one hand she is in slavery to other people, and on the other hand she is a skilled manipulator of the external relationships. When a Tutankhamon realizes what she is reaping, instead of repenting she resorts to harassing the people who got her involved and looks for ways to get out of the mess, produced by her irresponsibility, using the strengths of her type. For them, the picture of "victim" comes to mind.
How these inner cognitions manifest is how one would expect the relations (supervision by
Short story short, Se-DSs and Se-PoLRs are not the same type. Both are very common types irl, but both have different short-sighted PoLRs.
Sounds like nothing more than responding to peer pressure and something I outgrew years ago. I was not the only "type" to find myself in those situations and I find the description kind of demeaning.
This seems written by someone who doesn't really understand the nuances and motivating energy behind Se DS. If I am saying "I have no will of my own" I am probably head over heels in love and sleeping with the person. Anyone who knows me knows I have more than enough will to do what I want. How can a type that is said not to cook, clean or take care of their own children also be the type to be forced into a situation they did not foresee would make them miserable like the ones described? Not saying I don't find myself in miserable circumstances but if I have the slightest bit of previous experience I already know what to avoid.
The example is poorly written. I relate the the other description Se DS better. If someone wants something enough for both of us then I can mobilize to action but that is not what is happening in the example. When I do it is to prove strength not because I am weak and just giving into peer pressure. No wonder some people think IEI are a bunch of spineless,useless, airheaded idiots.
That is not only demotivating for me too but a big, "fuck you, do it yourself!" if not asked nicely or said playfully. Who wants to be talked down to that way? I mean if it is playful that is one thing and I might even do it if they ask nicely but I don't take well to people shouting orders at me and I am not Se polr. If I am not angered by it but only mildly amused I might say, "sure thing, I will get right on it." with sarcasm, then continue doing what I want to do. My mom can attest to the fact that I am probably not going to do anything until I am ready. Obviously I wouldn't tell her "fuck you do it yourself" but don't underestimate my power to procrastinate until I am ready to get something done. Now everyone can understand why self employment was the only choice for me.
Edit: Just so no one misunderstands, I am very easy going and will do anything for my friends and family but I do not like to be disrespected and I do not disrespect others unless they give me reason to. At least not intentionally.
Last edited by Aylen; 07-04-2016 at 03:07 AM.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
This is my Se-PoLR: it's simply not acceptable to walk over/abuse others... I see it happen all the time, and I feel paralyzed by it, lest I be walked-over/abused - or I end up stepping on someone else... Therefore, in such situations, it's either retaliate and hurt someone else or be hurt, and I don't like any possible outcome, so I simply shut-down, not being able to act...
Last edited by jason_m; 07-04-2016 at 06:08 AM.
Even better: as Se-PoLR this is what Se is like to me:
Last edited by jason_m; 11-04-2016 at 08:09 AM.
isn't an awareness of your own and others personal space an integral aspect of Se? recognising kinetic energy and underlying power dynamics. applying just the right amount of pressure to make an impact, which sometimes means applying no pressure at all. Se egos can be downright passive in social situations where their power is perceived to be inferior to someone else's. Ne leads are the types with little to no regard for others personal space.This is not how it works. The SEE is the one invading others' personal space, not the LII. Wanting to maintain the harmony of one's personal space is
but i agree that xIIs are unobtrusive. it's only when they really want or need something that they begin to (unintentionally) step on toes.
"Se egos can be downright passive in social situations where their power is perceived to be inferior to someone else's."
Yes but I would say that this is rare on the whole. A type that strongly values Se (as with the leading function) prefers to constantly be moving towards what they want, and therefore expanding their domain of influence. They will only display this attitude towards somebody who has a clear advantage over them, and even then might neglect to do so out of lack of foresight.
"isn't an awareness of your own and others personal space an integral aspect of Se?"
You have to realize that Si is also a part of this. Maintaining the harmony and suitability of a space is Si, so this is something that types who don't value Si are likely to do things that go against that goal. Similarly, "applying just the right amount of pressure" also involves awareness of Si. Indeed, what does applying the right amount of pressure even mean? If you don't care about the other agent's well-being, it may be in your best interest to completely crush them or make them submit to you. Any consideration of their state in the future is going to involve some other element like,
The trouble I have is labelling it as "S" given that introverts generally value personal space, ESE do not and they are very assertive.This is not how it works. The SEE is the one invading others' personal space, not the LII. Wanting to maintain the harmony of one's personal space is
Do you have ESEs you actually study and observe?
Well, ESEs are going to use Se quite a bit too, as it is their demonstrative function. I'm not sure I would say "assertive", they can be pushy or interfering though.
First let me ask you this: are you aware of the meaning of Se and Si in socionics and how they differ?Do you have ESEs you actually study and observe?
Last edited by Exodus; 11-02-2016 at 08:14 PM.
Which is what I call being assertive, to me LSE & SLE are the worst at it followed by SEE & ESE, discounting subtypes.
I self-identify as an ILI with Alpha values predominantly, and I didn't come to this conclusion hastily as most people who start bending socionics unfortunately do. The worst ones are the ones from MBTI but that is digressing.
I'm aware that "S" is predominantly ascribed as the sensory of sensations, prioritising, comfort a pleasant environment. Whilst "F" is the opposite aggression, territorial instincts, assertiveness - in addition to rebellion. This is just the start - several development and augmentations about how to apply the theories and the functions exist with divergences, about the application of the theory as well as models.
Gulenko's humanitarian socionics has become the most unorthodox, which I'm happy with since it helps me understand the fact that I do not seem to be fitting into the current labels; there are truly more than 16types of people and the more socionists are honest about this the more the theory can start becoming a science better explaining overlaps.
My temperament is Receptive Adaptive (IP) and my social installation Researcher (NT), "L" and "I" reflect a lot of my intellectual flavours in my personality - the heavy emphasis on logical integrity and ideas, whilst the "Time", "Imagination", "Vision", are quite esoteric and do not represent the core of my personality. Now whilst it would make sense to contort myself to either Alpha NT types the problem I have is that there is the divergence in information rhythm that adds a little confusion, I also confuse Alpha SFs since my thinking styles don't quite come out as "right". However when it comes to the value - pleasant emotional expressions, comfort, the excitement around ideas & logical integrity, we do converge.
I guess I left a lot of important information here, the question about ESE here excludes a little history about my diverging understanding on ESE, especially why I now view ESE, LSE, SLE, & SEE as all decisive whilst SEI, SLI, LSI, & ESI are judicious.
This was influenced by new insights Gulenko found which lead him to classify Beta & Gamma quadras as "centralists". Essentially there Viktor discovered that LSI brings themselves to central dominance within society; however, their model of functioning is actually methodical, careful, level-headed - quintessentially judicious. The antonym quadras are "peripheralists", Alpha & Delta, these don't strive for a central subjugation of society whilst with LSE & ESE their mode of function is decisive, assertive, at times imposing.
ok, I know who you are now; we have met on WSS. Your model has diverged quite significantly from classical socionics so there is little point in discussing this further.
This is just semantic quibbling. If you understand how the individual functions act you will realize that that the dichotomy names are just an attempt at an approximation, they aren't a precise definition. Nobody thinks LSIs are actually more "merry" than IEEs.
WSS believes LSIs are merrier than IEEs, and the typing system is pretty strange - quintessentially what they do is pick some prominent personality feature and then rationalise the quadra values around it.
The theory is described ad-hoc to fit the type, there isn't much internal consistency.
Last edited by Soupman; 11-03-2016 at 10:52 PM.
This is now a derail so I will respond to you via PM.
Bonus footage:
This is business logic to me:
Why? My guess is that this has something to do with Daniel Kahneman's System 1 and System 2 - System 1 is fast, intuitive, emotional - i.e., intuitive reactions based on a set of cultivated instincts. System 2 (business logic) is slow, unemotional, detail-oriented, rational, plodding. I am good at using System 1. For me, System 1 is very fast, and, also, I am somewhat inefficient at using System 2. Therefore, System 2 seems really really slow when I see it put into action...
Se polr in all its glory:
"Simmer down! Simmer down! Calm your tits!"
"No!"
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