Type Me

[Aiss]

You are not a P type...

Am I not?

[Minde]

Ethical Intuitive Introtim - Wikisocion

EII: "When they are preoccupied with a hobby, they tend to lose track of time and can be late with their appointments with others. As a result, they don't really have good time management skills."

"EIIs can be prone to laziness [not so much] and always seek the most convenient way in doing things [that's all me!!!]. Moreover, rather than prioritizing their tasks based on their level of urgency or/and importance, they prefer to complete the tasks based on their liking and at their own pace."

Lack of priority is Te weakness.

Wait a second, I'm confused now. So you do agree with wikisocion?

If you do agree with wikisocion, post the EII description. Otherwise, please don't use only parts of it... because that's inconsistent and confusing.

[Beautiful sky]

Wait a second, I'm confused now. So you do agree with wikisocion?

If you do agree with wikisocion, post the EII description. Otherwise, please don't use only parts of it... because that's inconsistent and confusing.

I do and don't; there's a multi-faceted problem with time.

EII can plan for activity, don't manage time in pursuit of interesting thing rather then what's important in "real" world context.
LSE procrastinate when submerged in detail, there's not enough time to do it all.

The only one I completely agree with is Socioniko.
and

http://66.196.80.202/babelfish/trans...%3ftype%3dINFJ

http://socioniko.net/en/index.html

[Beautiful sky]

Am I not?

I doubt it completely.

[Aiss]

I doubt it completely.

Why?

[Beautiful sky]

See here..this is more like me:

EII: "It lives and works quietly, organized. It does not love delays or advancings forward. Heavily it is reconstructed to the new working rhythm. It does not suffer the useless expenditure of time. It will not begin to for long wait optional person. Itself is punctual, it concludes the assigned work accurately to the period assigned. It does not feel sorry time for the work. Labor is evaluated according to a quantity of spent time. [not quantity, as I imagine my dual's would be] Working activity is always separated from the entertainments. It knows how to calculate, how much on whom one should spend time. It does not love garrulous people, which many forces return to the consideration of the not relating to the matter problems. It will not begin to tear off people from the work [that means will not distract people from work]by empty questions."

In essence EII makes LSE relax because LSE can very easily over work because of their ability to do so. EII is able to work a lot too, but can feel when people are going over board.

LSE keep things "clean and organized" we do too but in less routine way . We are very flexible by letting people have it their way or asking them to do it differently, but if they don't we usually don't have Se to make them do it our way with such stern resolution. I see the patterns in a big picture way about who is what type, I don't necessarily need to look at all ALL the facts to make a valid conclusion, fast and easy...that's an aspect of EII.


You in another thread...
"Not that it really matters at this point, in terms of keeping this thread "clean" (once again, sorry, Sasha!), but here's a typing thread I made for myself eons ago.


Also, for anyone who is unaware and might find this feature useful, you can quote a post from one thread into another by clicking the "Multi-quote" button (which looks like this ) and then just going over to the other/new thread and hitting "Post Reply", which will automatically paste the post you wanted quoted into that other thread. You can actually do that to several posts at once, pasting them into one reply. Another, slightly slower way, is to quote a post and then just copy/paste the quoted post text into the reply to the other thread. That can be useful if you see someone say something that is relevant to their type but want to keep things clean and organized by keeping most conversation regarding a person's type in their typing thread.

EDIT: I was mistaken. You can only use the multi-quote in the same thread, but if you post a reply you can still copy/paste the multiple quotes to the new thread. It isn't really that big a deal, I guess, but I want to be accurate."

[Beautiful sky]

Why?

Would you please open your own thread so I can tell you why. My dual here doesn't like this kind of behavior and that's going to cost both you and I some screaming, which I don't like it to happen. Thank you.

[Aiss]

Would you please open your own thread so I can tell you why. My dual here doesn't like this kind of behavior and that's going to cost both you and I some screaming, which I don't like it to happen. Thank you.

There's one, somewhere. I avoided excessive attention so far.

[Beautiful sky]

...

So,

What's your Socionics type? (drumroll please!!!)

[Ezra]

Oh my god. You're about two years too late.

Minde is benchmark EII. Shut the fuck up Maritsa you beta fuck.

[Beautiful sky]

Oh my god. You're about two years too late.

Minde is benchmark EII. Shut the fuck up Maritsa you beta fuck.

Well, that will depress me another few days, thanks a lot.

[Beautiful sky]

LSE

Makes the working rhythm...do this or that and in this time period or says "today is the day to one that and two this".

EII says "ok" and adjusts time to real time and working time [mentally of course], you see the mechanics of it's working? EII can't really know what one or two is, they rely on their friends and family to tell them what one and two is. So, we are very flexible with time, but if required (under demand), we can also be very rigid.

When I was watching the Oscars with my dual cousin, I started to double task, watch Oscars and go on the net; she started to give me dirty looks, like "this is the TIME to watch the OSCARS." I droped the internet. LSE is focused, EII is too but in a multitask kinda way.

[Ezra]

What the fuck are you actually trying to achieve here?

[Beautiful sky]

What the fuck are you actually trying to achieve here?

I am trying to find out if Minde is EII or LSE.

[UDP]

STOP!

DROP

Shut 'em down, open up shop

...OH...
...NO...

That's how Ruff Ryders Roll

[UDP]

What the fuck are you actually trying to achieve here?

It appears to be a strange sort of projected learning process where Maritsa "thinks" Minde is LSE (or whatever non EII type there is), when in reality she simply doesn't understand and perhaps doesn't want to believe that Minde is EII, so it's like a projected learning process. The person learning most from these questions is Maritsa, and not Minde, or me or anyone else. It's kind of self-centered, really.

Also, Maritsa has said she doesn't believe there are any other EIIs on the forum, which is rather weird.

[Beautiful sky]

It appears to be a strange sort of projected learning process where Maritsa "thinks" Minde is LSE (or whatever non EII type there is), when in reality she simply doesn't understand and perhaps doesn't want to believe that Minde is EII, so it's like a projected learning process. The person learning most from these questions is Maritsa, and not Minde, or me or anyone else. It's kind of self-centered, really.

Also, Maritsa has said she doesn't believe there are any other EIIs on the forum, which is rather weird.

Why is it weird?
We love people and will be attracted to threads to support human values...look at the rant about pregnant women, there is no chance that an EII would not attack the person who made that thread...and here I am, the only one going, "what you're saying is not good".

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ck-out-me.html

I am not saying I am "special" I am saying that I am INFj and if you noticed my response to that, you can maybe see my values. I have been that way all of my life; never once did I not feel that I had to be the "protector" of people from whatever side. I will gladly stand up and voice my views of what I think is good or bad.

[Beautiful sky]

Minde, this is my last piece of information to you my sweet...here is Rasputin's thread for help and the begining of yours...notice my highlights...

ENTj or ESTj?

This is my first post on this forum, and the reason I joined is because I'm curious to speak with some people who know probably more than I do about Socionics help me determine my type.

I'm what I would call an expert in MBTI. I've studied it for years and find it a highly accurate model for describing people. Historically, I haven't been the largest fan of Socionics, mainly because there are several things about the system that don't seem to fit well. One is that I've never been able to place myself in one of the four quadras. Second is that I don't see the MBTI J/P distinction a problem. But I didn't come here to discuss that, at least not at first.

For awhile now I've seen myself as ENTj. In MBTI, I'm an ENTJ. In enneagram, I'm 1w9 with 3w4 and 5w6 fixes. I really think I must either be ENTj or ESTj in Socionics, and I'm mainly aiming to determine how the tell the difference between the two, since I'm aware that S/N is not the same in MBTI and Socionics. How would you tease apart S/N in Socionics, and how would you tease apart ENTj/ESTj?

Maybe after we get that nailed down, I'll be able to place myself within a quadra.

I'm not sure what information to give you guys about myself to make this determination. I love theroetical principles, I majored in philosophy in college. I love to construct my own theoretical principles then apply them practically. I've very idealistic. I like to control my environment and get very upset if things are not a certain way or things don't go according to plan. I tend to be pretty pushy and the convincing others that I'm right about something or about having something a certain way.

Maye you guys will have some specific questions to ask to help in this determination.

Thanks in advance for your help.


Type Me - YOUR thread

My most recent wrestling match with the concepts of socionics has driven me to this.

What socionics type am I? Why do you think that?

I would like you to tell me what type, or possible types, you think I am. Don't say I'm obviously INFj because it's just so obvious, duh - that it's just crazy to think I'm not. Or say, "I believe you're whatever type you say you are" or "So-and-so says your EII, so I think so, too." Or even that I give you a certain "vibe" therefore I must be XXXx.

In other words, give concrete socionic reasons for the type I appear to be. Tie your observations of my behavior/words to socionic concepts, definitions, etc. I want good, solid rationales and justifications for your opinions or guesses.


I've made this thread partly because there are doubts from certain quarters on the accuracy of my current typing, plus I think it could be educational for me and others.

If you need material of mine to judge, search the forum - I appear all over the place - or ask me a question. It might help to approach this thread as if I'm a brand new person, too, wiping clean any preconceptions you have of me. I'll even wipe my sig clean of any type indicators.

So, type me, please.

[Beautiful sky]

As ESTj needs accuracy the following quote will tell you that I, EII, will do it accurately...

"Itself is punctual, it concludes the assigned work accurately to the period assigned."

Therefore the dual mind, body, self, and spirt.

[cracka]

Her username is Minde, not Mindy If I remember correctly, it's not even pronounced the way you keep writing it.

[Beautiful sky]

Her username is Minde, not Mindy If I remember correctly, it's not even pronounced the way you keep writing it.

Thank you. Details, I'm better when I can double check my work.

[Minde]

In the next couple of posts, I'm going to go through several of the descriptions of both ESTj and INFj that Maritsa has posted, linked to, or quoted and make note of what applies to me and what doesn't. In case it isn't obvious, [my words are bolded in brackets].


---------------------------


ESTj description from socioniko.net

Sherlock Holmes—a hero of detective stories written by Arthur Conan Doyle.
Another pseudonym of this type: Stirlitz (a hero of a Russian detective book and movie).

1. Rapid, clear, sober mind. He knows how to act in an intelligent and logical way. [Well, I certainly try for that. And I admire it in others.]

His bearing is sporty, facial traits are sharp and coarse, as if carved from granite, and by this all – covert nervousness, high internal emotionality. [Um, nope. I consider my bearing somewhat awkward, and my facial traits are soft. My internal emotionality is not high, nor do I express lots of nervousness, covert or otherwise.]

His motto sounds: force, integrity and a sense of duty. [Well, integrity, yes. I value that a lot. And I do feel a sense of duty a lot, too. But more often a sense of duty toward my own principles than necessarily to other people, though there is of course a lot of overlap.]

He is a born scout – he collects information using all available channels until he achieves an absolutely clear picture that provides him with indemnity to act for sure. [Sometimes, though I usually like it when other people do that for me. I like it when other people gather all the information that I need to know, filtering out the junk, so I'm left with what I need to make up my mind. Doesn't always, or even usually, happen though, so I often end up just doing it myself. Which is ok.]


2. "All I do is done well". [Heh, well, I am a perfectionist. But a selective perfectionist. Not everything I do is perfect.]

One more quotation: "There is a gift which is always characteristic of great baseball players and teams. This is onslaught. This is the capability to run more rapidly then one is required to, to move more quickly than one is required to, to be more impertinent than one is required to” (Ph.Brooks). [Not me, that's for sure. I'm a terrible runner.]

Initiative is habitual to him; he is decisive, likes to be the center of attention. [No, only sometimes, and no, respectively. I only take initiative when I feel it's necessary and no one else is doing it. But I get frustrated and annoyed when I have to. When I know what to do I can be decisive, but often I'm not sure so I'm not decisive. Hesitating is a "gift" of mine, actually. And I usually hate being the center of attention, though I do like recognition for my good work.]

He defends his ideas with guts and fervor. [Sometimes, but not consistently.]

In front of his superiors he is not shy, even becomes aggressive. [The opposite, unless I'm comfortable with them. I've been getting better about that, though. Rank isn't as important to me as it is to some other people.]

He knows that business only then goes perfectly if the necessary tempo is set from the very beginning. [It does?]

He does not tolerate procrastination, is an ardent struggler for quality and thoroughness in all work. [ "Struggle" being the key word here, for me. I love good quality, yes. And I agree procrastination isn't good. But too often I fail my own standards. I try to train myself to recognize good quality, and I try to attain it, but it's a matter of education for me.]

A good army officer. Like Thomas Edison, a representative of this type is capable of working 19.5 hours a day. [Oh, goodness gracious, no! I can do that in short bursts, but not long-term. If I work too much like that I end up breaking down.]


3. "Rage is a mighty god of the strong". He tends to take other people out of the condition of complacency. [Sometimes. I'm usually the complacent one, though. But if I think people are needing to get up and moving I'll (gently) encourage them in that direction.]

He does not speak much about what is good, considers it self-evident. With his grumbling emotions he strives to extinguish emotions of others. [Not sure about those two things, though I do tend to encourage calmness of emotions.]

He believes that redundant emotions tire people, and this is absolutely true if applied to his dual (The Humanist). [This is true; too much emotional stimuli is not good for me. However, sometimes I just need to let things work out of my system on their own.]

During a conversation he pressures his interlocutor, even tries to intimidate him, but if people do not fear him, he becomes courteous and polite. [Hm, I'm not sure about this. I don't think I really try to intimidate people. I'd much rather them be good just because it's the good thing to do. My pressure tends to be the round-about kind.]

Fury is his line of defense in a situation of emergency in which he feels otherwise helpless. [No, not really. I tend to freeze up in emergencies. Sometimes I do yell when I'm panicked, though - like when there's a fire. Not sure if that's strictly type-related, though...]

The aim of his fury is to mobilize his partner, and when this is achieved, he calms down. [N/A, for the most part.]


4. Belief in playing fair. [Yes, playing fair is good. Sometimes I don't tell everyone what I'm doing, though. So I've been called sneaky a few times.]

He considers obedience to rules to be a strength trait. [Yes, unless the rules are bad. Then you try to change them.]

He does not tolerate slyness and deviousness, hates cheaters and dodgy folks. [Very true, though I'd use "like" instead of "tolerate", and "dislike" instead of "hate". There are very few people in the world, if any, that I actually hate.]

"Political maneuvers may produce a quick effect, but a truly lasting and tangible results can be reached only through hard work" (Kim Philby). [Um, I suppose that's a true principle... Often, though, I like trying the quick way.]

He likes order. [Yes, but creating it is another matter. I'm not so good at that, though I sometimes make attempts in that direction. It's better if someone sets up and maintains a system that I can just sort of fall into. In terms of physical things, that is. In certain areas, I can create order just fine for the most part. Like in my coding. Or organizing the folders on my computer. Or putting my thoughts in order in writing.]

Having bought a new thing, he will for sure read the manual and only then will switch it on. [Haha, true. I'm a great manual-reader.] The famous traveler Roald Amundsen managed to avoid extreme situations all his life. "Victory awaits those who keep things orderly”, he used to say, “and this is what we call good fortune". [Um, I'm not sure what to make of that...]

A believer in honest labour. "If everything seems to be easy, this is an infallible evidence that the worker is far from being skilled and that the work is above his competence" (Leonardo Da Vinci). [Um, sure, I guess. That statement makes sense to me. I prefer easy work over hard work, though, despite what that might say about my skills.]


5. "A reserved force characteristic for military officers". [Lol, I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere near impersonating a military officer.]

He looks well built, has a straight bearing even if he has never served in the army. He dresses well and elegantly, but does not like to dress to demonstratively. He wears his clothes very long, and it always looks permanently fresh, as if unaffected by time. He never buys uncomfortable shoes, and makes others dress very neatly. An aesthete. [None of this is very true for me at all. Except the part about not wanting to dress demonstratively, which is true. I don't like making a scene or being the center of attention. But I struggle a lot with not having a fashion sense. I need lots of help choosing the right clothes, and it seems I'm always asking people for their opinions. It's kind of embarrassing, but, oh well. I hate shopping.]

[Minde]

The INFj description on socioniko.net:

Fedor Dostoyevsky—the famous Russian writer.

1. Bearer of quiet introspection, hidden sea of feelings. [Definitely. There's a lot inside that never comes out.]

The world of his feelings is so fine and rich that he does not need verbal reassurances of someone's love for him. [This is only somewhat true of me. I do enjoy people I love telling me they love me in return. However, I don't really require over-the-top, hugely demonstrative expressions.]

Even without words he observes, who loves whom and how, who needs or doesn't need whom. [Yep, that's really natural to me. These stories around me are never-ending. I can entertain myself for long periods of time by just sitting and watching groups of people, silently taking part in their connections and feelings and interactions.]

His most important capability is his ability to adapt to his partner's emotions, to empathize, release emotional tension, to calm down. [I don't know if it's my most important capability, but I do tend to adapt to others and to calm people down. In fact, in some groups I think I end up doing too much calming down, heh. But, yeah, I think that's something I tend toward.]


2. He is usually a quiet, amicable man. [Most would describe me thus, yes]

Being in groups, he prefers to keep silence and watch, [Yes, very much so] but among his close friends his behavior switches to the opposite—then one cannot call him too shy, because he remarks perfectly, how other people treat him, and knows how to improve their relation to him. [ It's definitely true that I talk less with strangers and in groups with people I don't know or feel close to. But I can be very open and even talk quite a bit with people I know and trust well. ]

Strives to submit other people to his own understanding of ethical and non-ethical. [Heh, lots of people on this forum could vouch for that...]

He never imposes his own emotions on others, but accompanies, empathizes emotions of his partner. [I don't like imposing my emotions on others, as they put it, which is why I keep a lot of my feelings and thoughts to myself. That's one reason I don't talk about my bad feelings, or even good ones, with others much.]

He demonstrates specific emotional standstill. [Not sure what that means]

He is sure that other people need him to be quiet, calm, tranquil. [Yes, pretty much. There's enough shouting hooligans in the world.]

He strives to be something like a "compress" other people can apply to their wounds. [Yes, though I've discovered I have to be careful with that, or I end up absorbing more of someone's pain than I can healthily deal with.]


3. Cannot refuse if asked to do something. This is why people often exploit him. [The latter sentence is particularly true in some circumstances. I do find it hard to resist people who ask me for help, and can end up getting "exploited".]

He needs such a partner, submitting to whom, he can shield himself from excessive chores. [I do find it helpful and sort of comforting when others "protect" me from those who want me to do too much. And, someone telling me, "Stop working so hard, you need a break" or something like that, is helpful, too.]

In relations with people his interests are narrowed to a certain group, [Not sure what that means, except maybe that my circle of close friends is somewhat limited] but in the objective world he is interested by absolutely everything: his intellect and skills are really omnivorous. [Yep, all sorts of things interest me. Even medical stuff, though I end up getting queasy whenever I try. But it's still interesting. The world is full of amazing things!]

He is scarcely capable of evaluating the quality of his work and time spent to accomplish it. Often he cannot distinguish between a triviality and what is really important. [Yeah, unfortunately that's often true, though I've been working on that. But sometimes I still find myself closely pursuing something that has no real practical value, which only becomes apparent to me after the fact or when someone points it out to me. Although, sometimes I pursue it anyway, just because I want to.]

He knows what he can do but does not know what he needs to do. [Hm. The other way around sometimes. Sometimes that way.]

He cannot stay aside when other people are working, and keeps on working when other people already finished. [Yeah, I feel bad if people are doing lots of work and I'm just sitting around. Guilty in a way. (I don't like the word "can't" though...)]

He dislikes very much being ordered to do something new while some other things have not been yet done. [Um, I guess that depends on the circumstances. Yeah, having a bunch of new projects starting without finishing others does seem somewhat counter-productive... And I can have a hard time just leaving something that I've started and want to finish, sometimes even to the detriment of other more "practical" things. (Filling this out could be a good example of that.)]


4. Critical towards his own beauty (handsomeness), will, energy. [Yes, yes, yes. I don't consider myself beautiful. I can't hold a constant pressure in something. And when I do have energy it's usually short-lived.]

He feels much pain when criticized for these aspects. Compliments on these aspects are not accepted as ambiguous only when they are expressed face-to-face, in a mild tone, without emphasis. [Yes.] He needs silent or not emphasized recognition. [Well, I admit, I do like praise every so often. But, yeah, not over-the-top.]

He cannot afford being untidy. [Heh, I might not be able to afford it, but it happens. Certain areas I try to keep organized, because I like it that way. Like my written communication. But my physical surroundings... they could use some outside organization...]


5. Deed is the best care. His partner can provide pleasant emotions he needs from time to time through intelligence, logic, demands, and ability to protect. [I'm not sure about the demands. But, yes, intelligence, sound thinking, even protecting me all make me happy.]

One needs to show up for the rendezvous on time, fulfill promises, be polite, thoughtful, and there is no need in more proofs of love or further conversations. [All that stuff is good, yes. Not sure if it's completely all that I'd want, though.]

If the smartest interlocutor explains his opinion in the form of speculations, instead of short and resolute formulations, then Dostoyevsky feels permanently dissatisfied and unhappy of being together with him. ["Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts." Speculation is ok, so long as if it's serious it's based in reality.]

And his main requirement to his partner is: faithfulness. He does not forgive infidelity. [Not sure if that's The Main Requirement, but it's certainly a very big biggie.]

[Minde]

ESTj description on socionics.com


ESTjs have a characteristic upright posture often appearing as if their backs are inflexible giving the impression that they are executing a military drill. In many cases ESTjs are slim. However, larger ESTjs are not exceptional, especially when applied to women. But even in these cases the figure retains its characteristic upright posture. [I don't know what I look like when I walk. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't look like I'm in a military drill when I do. This would probably be best answered by someone who has actually seen and observed me.]

Their gait and movements are sharp, tense and jerky showing an internal tension synonymous to this type. [I rarely if ever have internal tension, so I don't know why it would manifest in my motions.]

ESTjs find it difficult to remain in the same position for extended periods and will often shift about during conversation. [To the contrary, I can sit still for awhile, often completely forgetting about my body.]

Their clothes are mainly executive or classical in style. Men prefer the traditional suit and tie. When choosing clothes ESTjs will pay much more attention to comfort and quality than to the latest fashion. Female ESTjs do not often wear extravagant things. Even if they do try to follow fashion their choices will always maintain an element of conservatism. [In terms of what I value, this is somewhat true. I'm usually a modest dresser. And I try to get comfortable clothing. But it takes a lot of effort to shop like that for clothing; it's very difficult for me to end up with good stuff. Clothes shopping is usually very stressful and tiring for me.]

In general ESTjs are very careful and cautious with their clothes. Their clothing is always neat and clean. They may keep clothes for a long time and know well how to preserve them. Even if some items are quite old they still may look like new. ESTjs do not like untidiness and carelessness in their appearance and in general. Trousers are always ironed, shoes polished, etc. [Eh... Yeah, that would be nice, but... it's not something I do well at all. ]

When ESTjs interact with strangers they are always polite, educated and well mannered, observing the norms of etiquette. [I try to do this, yes.]

This is especially noticeable in men when they start a conversation with the opposite sex. ESTjs do not like small talk or gossiping neither do they like having long conversations on the phone. When talking on the telephone they will often sound slightly different. [True, I generally hate talking on the phone.]

ESTjs do not like familiarity. [Familiarity is ok with me, unless I don't know you. Then it's weird. Unless it's purposefully playful. Sort of. I think this depends on what "familiarity" means.]

ESTjs like to ask questions and find out facts. They do not accept foggy answers, demanding concrete data. [This is generally true of me, yes, particularly when discussing something important or something I want to understand.]

They have an opinion about almost everything and will actively debate and defend it. [No, I don't have an opinion about everything, neither will I debate about everything that I do have an opinion on.]

ESTjs will never admit that they were not right. [I will and I have admitted when I'm wrong. For that matter, I've witness ESTjs that I know do that, too. I think this has less to do with type and more to do with integrity and character.]

If they want to blame somebody for something they will find a way. [Um, yes, I suppose that's true. I would think anybody could do that. But I don't really always want to blame people for things unless I think they deserve it. Fairness is important.]

ESTjs are great supporters of practicality and do not understand and may condemn people who have fantasy or who propose fascinating but impractical projects. They do not like laziness or disorganisation. [Yeah, I think practicality is good, and even necessary in many instances. However, sometimes other people do not value it, so sometimes it's ok to just let some things go. Sometimes the best fun can come out of the most impractical things.]

They do not like sudden changes, preferring a slow but sure advance. ESTjs act for the sake of stability. [Yes, I very much like stability.]

They have conservative views about family, this is especially applicable in males. In their understanding the husband has to provide, while the wife has to look after the children and the house. [I guess that's fairly accurate. I wouldn't say "has to", because I think people can work out what works best for them. But that's probably how it would work out for me.]

Although ESTjs may appear in control of their emotions they periodically allow flashes of fury to break through. This often manifests when something goes wrong or somebody tells them how to do their job, especially if they deem that the accuser is not competent in what they are doing. [Occasionally true, yes.]

In anger ESTjs may shout, throw or break things, often recalling their victims past failures. [I am not violent, and I rarely shout. And if something's been resolved I usually don't bring it up again, unless it's directly relevant to the situation.]

ESTjs have a tremendous ability to work. If necessary, they can work for many hours a day, seven days a week without proper rest.Their understanding of relaxation is to lie down on the sofa watching television for a few hours and then they are ready to work again. ESTjs can not stay without work for long. They like to work and as a result they always keep themselves occupied. ESTjs often display the qualities of a good organiser. [I might like to be like that, but, honestly, it takes effort for me to work and I need relatively frequent breaks. Or, sometimes I can work for a long period of time, but then I need a long period of not-work. Or I'll work, then get distracted, then work, then get distracted, repeating that cycle and thus stretching out my time of "working". Because I value some of these things I've practiced them and slowly gotten better at them. But I wouldn't call myself an expert worker or organizer.]

When in dangerous situations ESTjs act quickly and determinedly, never boasting about it afterwards. They have a straight forward approach to their goals. ESTjs find it difficult to cheat making it easy to catch them out and as a result they generally have an honest reputation. ESTjs do not stand for lies forgery and fraud. They do not like shallow, frivolous or thoughtless people. They also observe customs. [This is generally true of me, except I'm not a fast thinker at all in dangerous situations. I freeze up.]

[Beautiful sky]

Are you going to look at INFj and the dual pairing and which role you thing you would be comfortable in?...If you looked at the pictures of VI on that site, not all ESTj have corse facial features. My cousin has very soft features, the key is in having flat forehead (with or without superciliary arches)...do you?

[Minde]

INFj description from socionics.com

INFjs have a very characteristic dispassionate facial expression. This is often reminiscent of the depiction of saints and martyrs from early Christian icons. Their faces convey the feeling that their soul is suffering even when it is not. INFjs faces are often perfect ovals but can be rectangular in shape as well. Their noses are usually straight and slightly elongated, but not prominent. [It's true that sometimes people will think I'm unhappy, based on my expression, when actually I'm neutral or even happy.]

INFjs do not show intense positive emotions, instead they simply smile. All their facial expressions openly reproach nefarious happenings. The same can be noticed in their intonation. In many cases INFjs have a slim, ascetic figure. Their movements are often quite harsh although not lacking mobility. INFjs with more fuller figures are less mobile and active. When walking, INFjs may keep their feet close and parallel to the ground, maintaining a short distance between each step. [I don't know what I look like when I move. I don't notice those kinds of things. But, yes, I'm most certainly not habitually all-over-the-place with my emotions. I'll be expressive sometimes, but only when the situation seems to require it. All of this about how I look and come across physically would probably be best answered by someone who has had the opportunity to observe me. I am uncomfortable trying to determine this about myself, because I don't really notice these things.]

INFjs are generally very modest, which is also noticeable in their choice of clothes. However from time to time they may wear something very flashy according to the latest fashion especially is noticeable in males. INFjs prefer to observe people for sometime before making contact in order to identify social hierarchy in a group. Normally INFjs do not show initiative when making contact for the first time. [This all is fairly accurate.]

INFjs can be very touchy and this may strain the easy atmosphere of a conversation. Sometimes they adopt a monotone speech pattern that can snuff out all playfulness in others. [Yes, the latter sentence is very true.]

INFjs have a special ability to listen to people and as a result they are often asked for advice or sympathy. They never push people away and are always prepared to listen for as long as it takes to make others feel better, even if they theoretically have better things to do. [This is all true, though in later years I've become less "tolerant" of people taking advantage of me. Though, instead of saying something like, "no, go away," I'll just try to avoid getting into that situation in the first place. But, yeah, I'll often end up listening to people for hours on end.]

INFjs are always ready to help friends in difficult life situations. They care not with words but with real actions. [True enough.]

INFjs do not really make good cheats or frauds. This however, does not stop them from trying sometimes. And even if they do, they are likely to feel pretty bad about themselves afterwards. This gives INFjs a reputation as naive and impractical people. INFjs are very conscientious in their work. They do everything carefully, paying great attention to the quality of their labour. [This is all accurate of me.]

INFjs demand cleanliness and order. At home they tend to keep everything tidy, carefully storing their belonging, especially females INFjs. [This is inaccurate. I try to be orderly, but fail. I like it when people help me with this, preferably without judgement. Like if someone came into where I am and just sort of started helping me sort things - "Ok, this goes over here, this goes over there, you don't need this, you don't need this but you want it so we'll put it here" etc. - and not "I can't believe what a slob you are."]

They like a calm and measured style of life and therefore try to prepare and anticipate everything beforehand, often making them quite reliable. [This is very true. Though, just because I try to anticipate, doesn't mean I actually end up doing everything right. But it sure helps. Often I end up over-preparing, and thus bringing too many things on a trip for example, because beforehand I think of all the possible things that could happen.]

INFjs know how to establish peace between conflicting sides. They take a neutral position in the conflict, often being fired upon from both sides. They rarely push, shout or show aggressiveness. [This is mostly true. Sometimes I do take a position, and occasionally I do act aggressively, though usually in a somewhat roundabout and passive manner.]

Instead they punish offenders by completely ignoring them until they realise their mistakes and apologise. [This is a tactic I often find myself employing, yes. Sometimes less as a punishment, though, and more just because I don't want to have to deal with them.]

INFjs do not like to project themselves: when everybody works, they work too, when everybody rests, they rest too. [Most often true.]

INFjs often cannot stand violence, conflict and graphic depiction of injuries. [Watching violence does disturb me more than the average person, it seems. I can sometimes watch it, but not usually happily. Sometimes it has a morbid fascination for me, but I'm always aware of that morbidity.]

[Beautiful sky]

I have a feeling you may be neither type then?

INFjs often cannot stand violence, conflict and graphic depiction of injuries. [Watching violence does disturb me more than the average person, it seems. I can sometimes watch it, but not usually happily. Sometimes it has a morbid fascination for me, but I'm always aware of that morbidity.]

HUH??? Not with me it doesn't...I cry profusely every time. That should be litterally taken for anyone considering INFj "cannot stand violence, conflict and graphic depiction of injuries"

[Minde]

A lot of this I think can only be seen when the two duals are together, but I will go through and apply what I can.


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© From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

The Administrator is very hard working; he rationally spends his time and does not like getting distracted by extraneous talk. He is very practical and economical. He strives to be competent in business issues, accumulating necessary information on problems interesting to him. He tends to take on too many responsibilities. So he needs The Humanist, which can suggest, which actions are most promising. The Humanist willingly helps in this work, doing it diligently and qualitatively. [I come up with all sorts of promising actions, and will diligently work on the ones that seem most promising. I value and usually try for all of these things. I don't think I'm very good at business, though. It's one of the things I feel I need to be better at.]

The Administrator does not tolerate inferior quality. [I often tolerate it quite well, at least in terms of physical things. I often don't know what is better or how to achieve it. I do have a hard time tolerating poor quality in the intellectual sphere, though, and often in the moral and relational ones.]

He likes integrity and uprightness in relations. [So do I.]

The Humanist, as a rule, is an exceptionally honest and conscientious partner. He willingly processes great quantities of information, draws general conclusions and schedules actions. [This is true of me. Often my decision-making process is somewhat gestalt in nature. I like having as much relevant information as possible present, but even when it's not I can make connections and see patterns that allow me to come to conclusions. Of course, sometimes because it is vague I end up making mistakes, but then again sometimes even very carefully thought out decisions are mistaken.]

The Administrator sees planning as a problem. On the one hand, he is sometimes too impatient, on the other – he may be distracted by outside matters, procrastinating on important issues and failing to fulfill them in due time. He accepts this fact very painfully. He needs an undemanding regulator, a provident and prescient partner. [The procrastination thing is mainly what applies to me here, and occasionally distractions. Not as much the other things.]

The second bright trait of The Administrator is his ability to take care of his family's welfare. He strives for a high standard of living. He demands quality and possesses well-developed esthetic taste. He is a kind of gourmet, likes tasty and healthy meals; parties for his close friends or family members organized by him are distinguished by very high taste. [This is inaccurate for me. They are things I would like to have, but don't. I can achieve it in spots and places, but not overall. I can take something and refine it, like my photography or a recipe, but I don't have an overall guiding aesthetic taste and often lean on others for their preferences in those areas.]

The Humanist is very reserved in communication. He is devoted to his narrow but stable circle of friends. [ This is very true of me. Unless the right mood falls on me, I'm generally quite reserved. And I do have a narrow and stable circle of close and trusted relationships. Not that I dislike others outside of that circle, or can't open that circle up from time to time. I do like people, as a general rule.]

He possesses 'clever hands' and interest in various technologies, culinary and medical recipes. While The Administrator creates comfort on a whole, his dual perfects all the details. [This all applies somewhat.]

The Humanist is very attentive towards people, which is not applicable to his dual who is interested more in results of work and communication rather than in the very process. [I do sometimes find myself more attentive toward people and their feelings than ESTjs, yes. This seems to be a matter of relativity, though.]

For this reason The Administrator, who is usually reserved and polite, may give way to irritation and wrath, especially when people take his precious time. At such moments he loses the feeling of tactfulness, may become blunt. He needs an ever-reserved, diplomatic and peaceful partner by his side. The Humanist softens ethical mistakes of his dual, performs peacemaking activities. By his persuasions he softens harsh behavior of the Administrator, appeals to his inborn nobility, magnanimity and conscience. By doing this, he facilitates communication with others. This helps The Administrator to keep stable the circle of his business partners. [By and large this is correct, with me playing this role of Humanist. I know someone who I suspect is ESTj, and I sometimes find myself "softening" her approach to people, so she keeps the best possible relationship with them. She'll often be in a hurry and striving for high quality in something, but seems to sometimes forget that, really, the most efficient way will also take into account the feelings of others, because if they don't like you they'll oppose you and things will end up going much worse. That said, sometimes I can be blunt and hurried myself. But, on average, I find myself most often taking the Humanist role when with that Administrator type. When I'm by myself sometimes I find myself trying to hold both roles.]

The Humanist also foresees well the outcome of undertakings and relations. By his advice he helps his improvident dual to avoid many mistakes, the main of which is wishful thinking, especially about health and relations with people. He recognizes well the perspectives of new theories or technologies and he is among the first to struggle for their implementation. [This seems to be fairly accurate of me.]

The Administrator is conservative enough in his views, and without such support he tends to fall into routine, may even stop in his development, stagnate in everyday chores, or lose his spirituality, romantic feelings and interest towards intellectual novelties. [I do tend to fall into routines, probably because I like stability, but I don't "lose my spirituality" or interest toward new things. I'm rarely bored; there's always something I know I can do.]

On the other hand, The Administrator is capable of thinking clearly and logically, of noticing what’s most important, of modernizing inefficient, outdated structures or technologies. [I can sometimes notice small things that are wrong and try to fix them, but that's usually more in the intellectual realm. As far as physical things going wrong , occasionally I'll notice it, but often I tend to wait for someone else to come along and help me fix it. Probably not the best habit, but there it is.]

He strives for higher quality and better outcome. [Yes, well, striving is different than succeeding. And I don't strive as hard as I should in some things.]

The Humanist needs such a partner, who switches his attention from trivialities to more global undertakings. In addition, his dual attracts him as a protector and leader. [Fairly true, I'd say (with me being the Humanist). Sometimes I'll get caught in details or small things that don't really matter in the grand scheme. I think, though, that there is some give and take between the two duals. I think that either one can get caught in details - perhaps different kinds of details - and each helps to pull the other out and add balance.]

The Humanist is a very softhearted and sensitive person. His kindness if often misused by the others. [Fairly true of me, though in the last few years I've been trying not to get taken advantage of. Sometimes letting people get away with things is not really in their best interest.]

By contrast, The Administrator is full of initiative, but does not like when others impose their own initiatives on him. [I am not full of initiative. In fact, I lack it often to my detriment.]

He may show aggression, but hardly perceives aggression of the others. [This sentence seems... off to me.]

The Humanist, in spite of his indecisiveness, defends his own interests silently but impertinently, if he is sure of his being right. [This can be fairly true of me. Occasionally I have personally valued causes that I can stick quite closely to and expend a lot of energy on. In many cases I'll definitely do that whole silently but impertinently stick to what I think is right.]

In practical affairs he is not very capable of protecting his interests, letting his more penetrative dual do it. He tolerates The Administrator's inability to praise, make compliments, which is caused by his insufficient understanding of individual traits and human potential capabilities. The Humanist understands this aspect and considers it to be so obvious that he does not require words of approval. He likes the integrity and hard work of his short-spoken dual. [Generally speaking, the Humanist role applies to me here better than the Administrator one.]

This dual pair is characterized with certain reticence, isolation from other people, hard work, and attention to details and integrity in everything. [Sure. Though this is talking about the two together, so it doesn't help in differentiation between them.]


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So, just looking at those descriptions - not even taking other things into account, like how the functions specifically fall, my temperament, etc. - I would put myself as much more of an INFj than an ESTj. There is some overlap, where I relate to both in quite a few ways, but I would attribute that to having the same values and to having influences around me, particularly in my formative years, that encouraged me to develop some of the practical traits and strengths of an ESTj. But I think the evidence from how I relate to the descriptions points rather strongly toward me being INFj.

[Minde]

Maritsa, is it impossible to you that I can be an INFj?

It seems to me that you are ignoring a whole pile of evidence that points toward me being that type. Is that true?

[Minde]

HUH??? Not with me it doesn't...I cry profusely every time. That should be litterally taken for anyone considering INFj "cannot stand violence, conflict and graphic depiction of injuries"

Why should that be literally understood, but not other things, like "coarse features" of an ESTj?

[Beautiful sky]

How old are you, if you don't mind my asking (you can average). I don't ignor people and I am very carefully reading your statements.

That's another place I don't get you, you jump at assumptions...I ask.

How can the nature of a human, animal suffering amuse anyone? That's just wrong. That's inhuman and brutal.

[Minde]

How old are you, if you don't mind my asking (you can average). I don't ignor people and I am very carefully reading your statements.

That's another place I don't get you, you jump at assumptions...I ask.

How can the nature of a human, animal suffering amuse anyone? That's just wrong. That's inhuman and brutal.

Are you assuming that such things amuse me?

I am mid 20s.


And why are you so fixated on trying to find differences between us? Is it that you don't like me?

[Beautiful sky]

Are you assuming that such things amuse me?

I am mid 20s.


And why are you so fixated on trying to find differences between us? Is it that you don't like me?

That you think I think that it is impossible that you may be INFj is what I think is being assumed. You can be whatever type you want to be, I just think that being moral and having morality does not make you INFj, INFj is about ethics of relationships. That feeling that you get when you look at a couple together or your own relationships with regard to everything.

You have displayed your emotions of rage and loosing your temper several times here, you grow porcupine quills.
Introverted ethic is also called Ethic of Relations.

This function is inertial; many emotions are inside such a person, but they do not go outwards, and rather stay “conserved”. Such people are very passionate in evaluating other people, but from outside they seem to be “emotionless”, smiling just as much as etiquette requires. They are good spectators of relations: in a small collective, they very quickly feel who has which relations with whom. They can work with people – as lawyers, pedagogues, etc. However, being so attentive to people's relations, they do not like, even more, they are afraid of “intellectual initiative”, do not like arguing, because it can “break” or just significantly change relations with other people.

From your written language, your behavior and your writing pattern I still can not fully consider you being INFj...What does your forehead look like again?

[Minde]

That you think I think that it is impossible that you may be INFj is what I think is being assumed.

So, you think it's possible that I'm INFj?

I just think that being moral and having morality does not make you INFj, INFj is about ethics of relationships..

I wholeheartedly agree and have said as such many times.

You have displayed your emotions of rage and loosing your temper several times here, you grow porcupine quills.

Where have I done that? I only recall one instance where I lost my temper with you, and I apologized for that.

[Beautiful sky]

Where have I done that? I only recall one instance where I lost my temper with you, and I apologized for that.

You said it before that you grow quills and many people on the forum can attest to that-litterally, look back at your posts and you will see.

[Minde]

You said it before that you grow quills and many people on the forum can attest to that-litterally, look back at your posts and you will see.

I rarely post here out of anger, certainly not in "rage". I know myself and what I feel. That's why I ask you to point out when you think I've responded in anger, so I can verify if your perception is or is not correct.

[Beautiful sky]

I rarely post here out of anger, certainly not in "rage". I know myself and what I feel. That's why I ask you to point out when you think I've responded in anger, so I can verify if your perception is or is not correct.

"I would also like to say that I don't think I'm quite as in need of a peaceful, emotionally pleasant environment as you seem to think. There are definitely times when I get stubborn or upset about something and/or grow porcupine quills. There are several people even here, I believe, who can attest to that."

You don't need a peaceful and emotionally pleasant environment as well? hummmmmmm

not me I like zen.

What does your forehead look like my dear?

[Minde]

"I would also like to say that I don't think I'm quite as in need of a peaceful, emotionally pleasant environment as you seem to think. There are definitely times when I get stubborn or upset about something and/or grow porcupine quills. There are several people even here, I believe, who can attest to that."

You don't need a peaceful and emotionally pleasant environment as well? hummmmmmm

not me I like zen.

If you like zen, why are you here on this forum so much? This is not a very zen-like environment. I find I need to take breaks from this place.

And, I don't see any need to deny that there are time when I do get stubborn and upset and porcupine-y. I've actually seen you do the same, like in that thread Suzzy started where you got upset at people looking at your facebook. That was quite porcupine-y of you. However, wouldn't you agree that getting upset by things is different than consistent "rage" and anger?

[Beautiful sky]

If you like zen, why are you here on this forum so much? This is not a very zen-like environment. I find I need to take breaks from this place.

And, I don't see any need to deny that there are time when I do get stubborn and upset and porcupine-y. I've actually seen you do the same, like in that thread Suzzy started where you got upset at people looking at your facebook. That was quite porcupine-y of you. However, wouldn't you agree that getting upset by things is different than consistent "rage" and anger?

I love people and interacting with them so I don't need a break...I can do it indeffinitly in this setting; but not in person. You seek emotional comfort from others, I supress emotion within me. You're a great speller, ever double check?

You recognized once that I did not like bad words, it was in a song that LOBO posted...that was very nice of you, thank you.

[Minde]

I love people and interaction with them so I don't need a break...I can do in indeffinitly in this setting; but not in person. You seek emotional comfort from others, I supress emotion within me.

You are assuming that I seek emotional comfort from others. I will likewise assume that you seek emotional comfort from others, as evidenced by complaining when people say mean things; if people saying mean things affects you negatively, it stands to reason that people saying nice things affects you positively, and thus you ask people to be nice. You actually scatter your emotions all over the place; it's not hard to tell when you're upset or happy when you write.

Constant interaction with people, in person or not, is not zen. That's why monks live in isolated monasteries with vows of silence.


Also, though I think it has little if any bearing on type, my forehead is round.