EIEs/ENFjs, what does +Fe -Ni mean to you?

[tcaudilllg]

I'm not an ENFj, nor am I even a process type. So I need to know, how does Ni produce Fe? On what criterion is Ni accepted?

[idealistichick]

I'm going to try to explain in the best way. I feel like my Ni is really helpful although at times I wish I didn't have it. I'm always in my own "dream world" and I'm really bad when it comes to making any kinds of decisions. I'm very unsure of anything and I don't think that I actually have a firm opinion on most things. I don't think this reply is a lot of help but I felt like replying...

[tcaudilllg]

Thank you, Esper. (you too, onetreehulliver)

-Ni is grounded in -Ne and consists of -Se. -Se is the encroachment of the object upon the subject and the subject's response to the same. -Ni is likewise the paths taken by those outside the subject -- the subject is challenged to assert their own path, which they will based on their motives.

Things I'm noticing:
- +Fe is the signal whose observance orients the paths of others.
- +Fi determines ... oh I get it.

The functions pass like this:
- +Fe invokes an -Fe response. (aspect-wise) Depending on whether or not they accept the signal (-Fe), others will choose whether or not to align their own paths to yours. (-Ni) In response you choose your own path. (+Ni)

So it goes for IEI: +Fe => -Fe => -Ni => +Ni

Let's make a distinction between the aspects and the elements. The elements experience +/- as orderings of observance between subject and object ('+' sees subject affecting object; '-' sees object affecting subject.) However from an aspect perspective there is no such processing: + equals subject, - equals object. Making this distinction clarifies the flow of our information.

For EIE, it's -Ni => +Ni => +Fe => -Fe

EIE observes others going their seperate ways, which leads them to assert their path. They signal this path with +Fe, and observe the -Fe reaction.

EIE is saying, "this is where I'm headed. Come along with me."

It's best to think about information flow in terms of aspects than elements. The question now is how to reconcile the two....

(I'd just like to point out, that it seems to me the trait of leadership is awareness of how opposing signs of the same aspect interact. For example, an ENFj who can anticipate -Fe's reaction to their signal will be capable of fine tuning it into something practically irresistable. I think this is probably how advertisements and movie trailers, TV show openings, etc. draw us in).

[idealistichick]

Thank you, Esper. (you too, onetreehulliver)

-Ni is grounded in -Ne and consists of -Se. -Se is the encroachment of the object upon the subject and the subject's response to the same. -Ni is likewise the paths taken by those outside the subject -- the subject is challenged to assert their own path, which they will based on their motives.

Things I'm noticing:
- +Fe is the signal whose observance orients the paths of others.
- +Fi determines ... oh I get it.

The functions pass like this:
- +Fe invokes an -Fe response. (aspect-wise) Depending on whether or not they accept the signal (-Fe), others will choose whether or not to align their own paths to yours. (-Ni) In response you choose your own path. (+Ni)

So it goes for IEI: +Fe => -Fe => -Ni => +Ni

Let's make a distinction between the aspects and the elements. The elements experience +/- as orderings of observance between subject and object ('+' sees subject affecting object; '-' sees object affecting subject.) However from an aspect perspective there is no such processing: + equals subject, - equals object. Making this distinction clarifies the flow of our information.

For EIE, it's -Ni => +Ni => +Fe => -Fe

EIE observes others going their seperate ways, which leads them to assert their path. They signal this path with +Fe, and observe the -Fe reaction.

EIE is saying, "this is where I'm headed. Come along with me."

It's best to think about information flow in terms of aspects than elements. The question now is how to reconcile the two....

(I'd just like to point out, that it seems to me the trait of leadership is awareness of how opposing signs of the same aspect interact. For example, an ENFj who can anticipate -Fe's reaction to their signal will be capable of fine tuning it into something practically irresistable. I think this is probably how advertisements and movie trailers, TV show openings, etc. draw us in).

makes sense...i luvv tv openings and movie trailers!

[Angel Alliterator]

Intuition comes to me in abstract visuals, I think in visuals, shapes and patterns.

Sometimes feeling comes in these intense universal emotions, almost like I could feel and breath the ONENESS with everything (which occasionally might reveal to me some abstract visual pattern).

[tcaudilllg]

Intuition comes to me in abstract visuals, I think in visuals, shapes and patterns.

Sometimes feeling comes in these intense universal emotions, almost like I could feel and breath the ONENESS with everything (which occasionally might reveal to me some abstract visual pattern).

-Fe does pass to -Si, so I suppose that it's a product of your alignment of your own emotions with that which others around you will accept. You would need appropriate harmony within yourself at that same moment to accomplish this; perhaps motives for greater balance and justice (-Fi)? That in turn, would mean that you had received signals indicating that the world wanted harmony with you, and was ready for an even exchange of energy between it and yourself.

EDIT: regarding the visuals, I think that's actually a specific experience of Ni as a series of related images or sensations. The oneness your feel is probably the experience of work shared between yourself and others... perhaps even at a physical level. This work seems itself to evoke the sharing of emotional signals of common harmony. By syncing your emotions to those of the world around you (your motives, especially) you can share your work with it, so to speak.

I've experienced this myself, though I don't think I have the control over it that you do.

[Angel Alliterator]

I have to be very focused and feel at peace in order for me to feel this intense oneness with the universe, it's really beautiful but it comes only occasionally.

I always wonder how Se works on ENFj as its third function?

[tcaudilllg]

I have to be very focused and feel at peace in order for me to feel this intense oneness with the universe, it's really beautiful but it comes only occasionally.

I always wonder how Se works on ENFj as its third function?

Third? You mean sixth? Or background in the fourth?

EIE Se is... estimative. It is an observation of one's own vitality, from what I understand. It works just as it does for LSI, but it's less capable.

In the content of Bukalov's dimensionatily theory, it would seem to me that a 2d function like the 6th, would like planes constituting the 3d depth of the 2nd. Still, that's a difficult analogy that I'm having a hard time visualizing. Maybe jxrtes can help.

[Angel Alliterator]

Sorry, I still find differentiation between MBTTI and Socionics a bit blurry.

In MBTTI Se is the 3rd function, but in Socionics it's in the 6th.

[lefty]

I'm going to try to explain in the best way. I feel like my Ni is really helpful although at times I wish I didn't have it. I'm always in my own "dream world" and I'm really bad when it comes to making any kinds of decisions. I'm very unsure of anything and I don't think that I actually have a firm opinion on most things. I don't think this reply is a lot of help but I felt like replying...

i would never say i wish i didn't have it...sometimes i wish i knew what it was like to be a primary intuitive though, but intuition at the second level is also quite awesome. in fact intuition on all levels awesome. like an eSTp can be so right immediately about people its creepy.

peace,

[lefty]

I have to be very focused and feel at peace in order for me to feel this intense oneness with the universe, it's really beautiful but it comes only occasionally.

I always wonder how Se works on ENFj as its third function?

i certainly feel that way ... i feel oneness. at times. i like it. i feel part of humanity and i feel somewhat responsible for humanity. i like interacting with people on a daily basis either findout out about their lives, saying something that makes them feel good, giving them a look that makes them feel validated, making sure people are behaving well, making sure people feel seen, appreciated and cared for. i like to anticipate people's needs and try to fufill them quickly before a deficit is felt. im a total idealist and a humanist i really believe we're all in it together and tonight i was thinking as a guy rode buy on a bicycle singing ... as the streets of nyc were quite empty tonight because of the holiday...that people really just want to sing their song blissfully, like children, and that all other traits that appear like consumerism and competition are kind of ... something that is taught that leads slowly to the destruction of the world.

peace out,

[lefty]

Sorry, I still find differentiation between MBTTI and Socionics a bit blurry.

In MBTTI Se is the 3rd function, but in Socionics it's in the 6th.

yeah i dunno man i sure feel more Se than an ISTJ sometimes. Sometimes and ISTJs Se can be wicked, though. I'm prone to believe Se is really more primary in the ENFJ than Si. In fact I do not save money, but i do draw others towards me. I still think Si is secondary in the ENFJ. .... and private.

[Angel Alliterator]

i certainly feel that way ... i feel oneness. at times. i like it. i feel part of humanity and i feel somewhat responsible for humanity. i like interacting with people on a daily basis either findout out about their lives, saying something that makes them feel good, giving them a look that makes them feel validated, making sure people are behaving well, making sure people feel seen, appreciated and cared for. i like to anticipate people's needs and try to fufill them quickly before a deficit is felt. im a total idealist and a humanist i really believe we're all in it together and tonight i was thinking as a guy rode buy on a bicycle singing ... as the streets of nyc were quite empty tonight because of the holiday...that people really just want to sing their song blissfully, like children, and that all other traits that appear like consumerism and competition are kind of ... something that is taught that leads slowly to the destruction of the world.

peace out,

I feel the same way, you watch people walk by and you wonder and amaze at the mysteries of life and humanity's role in the cosmos. You wonder about our past and future, we are all indeed connected in some shape of form.

Whether it's by the ol' Six Degrees of Separation or the Collective Unconscious.