Charles Manson

[liveandletlive]

After watching these (especially the last one) im inclined to say SLE. What do you all think?

 

[Expat]

After watching these (especially the last one) im inclined to say SLE. What do you all think?

SLE makes sense.

[reyn_til_runa]

interesting you say SLE because while i can see it in the last video, my first thought after watching the first video was IEI gone bad.

what i mean by that is basically that there was an intentional dramatic flare in his speech and certain metaphysical way of describing/questioning things. the tendency to raise a question (the answer which he assumes is expected of the audience), then answer it, revealing that he actually believes the opposite of what is expected, is apparent. while i would imagine that this tendency is due more to manic/psychotic behavior in his case, i would be interested to explore the possibility that this is either: a.) an example of Ni/Fe in dire need of dualization (and/or perhaps as an INFp victim learning only to victimize others through unhealthy interactions largely beyond his control) OR b.) an example of Se/Ti Ni-dual seeking in twisted fashion (Ni seeking as manifest in the poetic, rhetorical, metaphysical flare).

check out the interview with charlie rose (1 of 7):

[liveandletlive]

hmmm i could see that too especially after watching that charlie rose interview you posted. he definitely was trying to be deep with his paradoxes, metaphors, imagery, etc. however a few things:

1) in the 2nd video i posted when he basically tries to attack the judge when the judge didn't really do anything THAT awful to him other than reestablish his dominance in the courtroom pissed him off so much so (claiming that he had a system) that he lunged at him from across the room. now i no hes insane but to me that seems like sumthin very . Conversely, I can also see how it's DS seeing as he didn't really seem to mean it... it seemed to be more for dramatic effect seeing as he fell onto the floor rather than closer to the judge- allowing interveners to restrain him. This thus evoked a reaction out of his 3 female followers in the crowd- which i think was what he wanted to do by lunging at the judge (and sumthin an would be good at knowing this would happen) rather than to actually piss off the judge (which an would be more interested in doing to show him who's the boss of the courtroom). However this interpretation is a little nebulous seeing as it really depends on his intent. It just seemed to me like he didn't really mean to hurt him.

2) In reading about his early life on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson

he seems almost to be too good at being at a very young age- natural even. im not so sure that these acts would come as easily or naturally to an IEI. however, he did seem to get caught an awful lot haha so maybe that was him needing his dual to help him to get away with more shit. however, he seemed to commit a bunch of the same crimes over and over again like robbery and grand theft auto so this makes me think that was DS. on the other hand, this could just be DS and trying to get away with it.


3) The fact that his mother sold him to some lady for a pitcher of beer makes me think that he's an SLE that received no love, couldn't fulfill his HA and repeatedly shows a complete disregard for his PoLR in favor of his 2 dominant functions. However, he seemed proud of his accomplishments- what he got away with, what he achieved ($$, women, etc.) and bragged about it which makes me feel like he could be an IEI showing off how skilled he is at using his valued, weak , .


4) Just the fact that he was a cult leader and had so many women groveling at his feet makes me automatically assume Beta NF in that they're able to charm the masses and then get them to do sum evil shit. however this is a stereotype and i cud see an SLE using his ability to get along with almost everyone ( HA/ PoLR) to manipulate these women to get him what he wants ().


therefore, i have no fucking clue

interesting you say SLE because while i can see it in the last video, my first thought after watching the first video was IEI gone bad.

what i mean by that is basically that there was an intentional dramatic flare in his speech and certain metaphysical way of describing/questioning things. the tendency to raise a question (the answer which he assumes is expected of the audience), then answer it, revealing that he actually believes the opposite of what is expected, is apparent. while i would imagine that this tendency is due more to manic/psychotic behavior in his case, i would be interested to explore the possibility that this is either: a.) an example of Ni/Fe in dire need of dualization (and/or perhaps as an INFp victim learning only to victimize others through unhealthy interactions largely beyond his control) OR b.) an example of Se/Ti Ni-dual seeking in twisted fashion (Ni seeking as manifest in the poetic, rhetorical, metaphysical flare).

check out the interview with charlie rose (1 of 7):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBH6U8Mf7kQ

[Gilly]

I saw a very long interview with him on the History Channel this past winter break and was fairly convinced of IEI by the time it was over.

[Gilly]

He's mostly crazy, but I also think he's pretty misunderstood.

[Park]

Beta NF type... gone bad.

How many Beta NFs don't go bad? I wonder what's the percentage ratio?

[Park]

Examples: Gandhi (INFp) Martin Luther King, Jr. (ENFj)

Yeah, they 've gone pretty bad. Not to mention ******.

[reyn_til_runa]

here's part 3 of the charlie rose interview:

i find his speech to be impeccably timed.

[liveandletlive]

yeah im def leaning towards IEI. on the other hand, wtf are bets nfs crazy? lol

[crazedrat]

i think manson istj-ti

[liveandletlive]

I think there are crazy people of all types, but I think Beta NF types are naturally great at manipulation, and this can be a highly dangerous thing for an insane person to have in their possession. It's not always a bad thing though; a lot of the time a Beta NF will use their powers of manipulation for good over evil.

(btw, Your Avatar is awesome liveandletlive )

thanks!

[crazedrat]

"^why? there is Ti in his utterances, but it doesn't seem like Manson used it to satiate an Fe DS"

w/ Manson Fe will appear warped from your common conception of it. It will be reduced to its most basic definition: the stability of external states of affairs relative to themselves. This is the impression I got from his Ti speeches... trying to stabilize and justify his Fe relevance to the world / situatedness in the world in the name of fitting in with the framework

"much less protect an Ne POLR."

This is something I think you're not thinking about. Every time he is asked "why did you kill XXX" he goes off with a Ti rant trying to protect Ne PoLR

"i think an ISTj gone bad would more likely ascend and use an existing power structure to ill ends, rather than create their own on the fringe."

that is one difference between ISTj-Se and ISTj-Ti.
He also grew up .. in a prison.

"the way Manson describes the "family" i think differs a lot from Se-HA gone bad"

.. I just disagree.
Building a state of political affairs which is judged favorable for oneself implies creative Se & Fe DS. This final state of affairs is a Fe impression... it is created using Se. ISTj-Ti has Se creative function.

There is something beyond these reasonings informing my opinion... direct interaction w/ a crazy ISTj-Ti, and direct interaction w/ an INFp-Ni ... Manson reminds me of the ISTj. Call it subjective

[Raver]

I was thinking SLE or ILE, but what do you think based on these videos other than the fact that he is insane? He does sound pretty level headed when he was younger, when he's older he seems to be a bit out of it.

[rat1]

yeah a real shame. He was like the next john lennon or something

[neko]

funny guy. probably SLE.

[neverthesame]

Who the fuck cares what such a psychopath's sociotype is?! To the guillotine!!!...

Off with his head!! Such scums shouldn't be left alive by society!!

[NewBorn STAR]

He vis like istj.

[Spiro]

I went with LSE-se for Manson.

[Raver]

Wow!, typings are everywhere for Manson. I guess being a crazed sociopath can make it difficult to type him. I think ILE and SLE are most likely as he seems EXXP in his behaviour and seems to me as valuing and devaluing. I'm just unsure if his dominant is or . He is very forceful in his actions, which could indicate strong , however he also seems to be looking at things very metaphorically, which could indicate strong .

[Spiro]

Charlie's natural ability was giving direction. His stated drive is to bring order back into the world. Emphasis on order, hierarchy. That to me is specifically xSTJ. He was also drawn to objects/ideas for the power that it gave him to enslave the will of others. Such as LSD, scientology. Very crude, practical use of Te there.

Vibe wise loud and trampling over space. Lots of extroverted eye contact. Crass, as well. In the interview: "I'm going to take a shit." Overall, reminds me of a few junkyard LSEs I knew.

[Sumer1an]

Also, you have the worst avatar on this entire forum.

I was actually thinking about that. I don't think I've ever seen an avatar that ignites a fiery rage in me just by looking at it..... but his or her or whatever fucking gender that appeals to does.

[Marie84]

I think he was an EIE, but obviously insane and not a good exemplification of the type.
The self-labeled "guru" had a proficiency in manipulating people with his grandeur ideology and charismatic charm, something I think EIE's tend to excel at more than any other type, inspiring people to such an intense devotion (IMO Martin Luther King Jr and likely Jesus being more positive examples of this)

[Creepy-male]

I think people overstate his "manipulative" abilities. I think what happened is mostly a result of circumstance and dumbfound timing.

The guy essentially grew up in the prison system, and at the time he was released you had american society in the middle of the whole 1960's rebellion against 1950's america.

1) you have a guy who doesn't integrate into society well, his best option for finding people to interact with was with the counter-culture as they didn't want to integrate with society.

2) you have a revolution going on based on freedom of people's inner desires and rebelling against the strict bureaucratic ordered/controlled/standardized mentality of the 1950's. When a person from the prison world jumps on board with this its no wonder his concept of rebellion involves something from his experience in prison. I mean the entire idea of helter skelter... killing rich white people, blaming it on black people, and then letting the white and black people kill each other so that a new order can be established sounds like someone projecting their experience from prison onto normal society.

I think what happened with the manson murders is still horrible, but it seems like his media image as some highly influential cult leader who is incredibly intelligent is overplayed, I find that instead of buying into the whole idea of him as the boogey man its easy to follow the events and clearly see how it happened in a rational manner without the need for all the fear/hype. In fact I find that in some ways the events, while not justifiable, are in a way an expression of the problems of the era.... the disillusioned counter-culture and the convict who is jaded and can't integrate into society. Looking beyond the horrific events its almost sympathetic, it makes you feel bad for how shitty our society is, how ineffective the prison system is and how it jades people and how lost people are fling from one extreme reaction movement to the next. I find that instead of living in fear over the whole thing, instead I can kind of begin to understand the events and get a sense of sympathy for the whole thing in the big picture. Manson's life is pretty much over, people will never let him out, what happened shocked society so much, that he is almost a symbol for the fears of an entire era, keeping him locked up psychologically protects people from having to confront those fears, but it will never solve the problem, its only really been transmuted and evolved to a more progressive point.

I don't know what type he is, NT or NF seems like a good bet but people in prison always seem more ST than they may really be, all I can say is intuition is obvious as he's a lot more perceptive in that way than your typical inmate.

[neverthesame]

Who the fuck cares what such a psychopath's sociotype is?! To the guillotine!!!...

Off with his head!! Such scums shouldn't be left alive by society!!

So, basically you're no better than he is—if not worse, since you wish your hands of personal responsibility for murder in the name of 'society'.

Also, you have the worst avatar on this entire forum. Jesus fucking christ.

There are states where the capital punishment is still applied, in the 21st century. Do you consider this to be an anachronism? Actually, I think the Law of the Talion is not unjust. Why should criminals be supported by the working population? Don't give me the "you're no better than them" reply. When sociopaths take someone's life (too often by horrible methods), they lose their human rights. If they knew they would be properly punished maybe they would think twice before taking someone's life. The electric chair is the only more scary method I can think of, and unfortunately it's no longer applied.

You must have no sense of humor, if you don't like my avatar...

[neverthesame]

Also, you have the worst avatar on this entire forum.

I was actually thinking about that. I don't think I've ever seen an avatar that ignites a fiery rage in me just by looking at it..... but his or her or whatever fucking gender that appeals to does.

I'm a "she", obviously. How could a man ever use an avatar like this??
I couldn't expect anything else from an ILI...

[Nowisthetime]

I watched some videos of him. Haven't seen him before, he's fascinating. He seems to be Creative subtype. Probably C-EIE.

[Absurd]

Reminds me of Gilly.





Here he reminds me of New Born Star. For entertainment replace Jesus with socionics. Instant New Born Star.



Beta freaks. Oh yea, I think he's EIE. Definitely beta though.

[detail]

There are states where the capital punishment is still applied, in the 21st century. Do you consider this to be an anachronism? Actually, I think the Law of the Talion is not unjust. Why should criminals be supported by the working population? Don't give me the "you're no better than them" reply. When sociopaths take someone's life (too often by horrible methods), they lose their human rights. If they knew they would be properly punished maybe they would think twice before taking someone's life. The electric chair is the only more scary method I can think of, and unfortunately it's no longer applied.

You must have no sense of humor, if you don't like my avatar...

This is incredibly disturbing because it only means one thing: Roberpierre would find your avatar funny.

[blackburry]

Who the fuck cares what such a psychopath's sociotype is?! To the guillotine!!!...

Off with his head!! Such scums shouldn't be left alive by society!!

So, basically you're no better than he is—if not worse, since you wish your hands of personal responsibility for murder in the name of 'society'.

Also, you have the worst avatar on this entire forum. Jesus fucking christ.

I wash my hands of personal responsibility for murder in the name of society.
I want to be the next dexter. or better yet, let there be a real life dexter, and I'll be his lumen.
charles manson coulda be EIE.

[Ave]

-LSI is a good typing for Manson.

[Exodus]

*Manson bump*

Pretty sure he's an Fe leading type. No way LSI or something like that. Remember he was a musician by profession, very social and emotionally skilled. Sometimes during interviews he randomly breaks out into song. What do people think about ESE?

[The Exception]

I think we can all agree he's beta gone bad.

From the video clip, I'd say EIE most likely maybe SLE.

[Beautiful sky]

I hate typing bad people because I feel like it shouldn't matter. They are a product of a lot of things and a lot of it isn't type related.

[Beautiful sky]

But bad people have necks too. At least the ones still gracefully being kept alive. Look at the inner neck beyond their outer problems. Where the problems of this life fade, a neck will still always be a neck.

I just feel like the news is also overbearing and society comes down too hard on certain individuals as well.

[ashlesha]

Well, hey there, cutie

[Kill4Me]

Charles Manson, ILE
Jim Jones, ILE
L Ron Hubbard, ILE
FDR, ILE

[darya]

ILE, not EIE

[Beautiful sky]

Whyyyyyyyyhy? Oh why!!!!

[strrrng]

Se-LSI imo... I think he's a good example of how ego but slightly misguided Se can phase into completely fucked and haphazard Fe.