SLI-IEE duality discussion (ISTp and ENFp)

[Slacker]

My husband doesn't want to spend all his time with me by a long shot. He really needs time to himself, enough that I'll sometimes take our daughter out for a few hours if he's wanting to be alone for a bit. So I have never felt smothered at all by him. I think, Kim, that either your ex or my husband is atypical because they're so very different in that regard. The rest sounds a lot like my husband.

Oh, one other thing that's different - my husband is great at handling my spazzy and/or bitchy episodes. I am amazed by how patient he is with me because I can get in some real moods from time to time.

I'd love to read this article mentioned about how ENFp/ISTj couples don't like to talk about their relationships. I don't mind here because none of you really know us, but we are very private about our relationship IRL.

[Topaz]

I think thats and interesting idea. There are times in our life where we just arent mature enough for certain relationships. Relationships require work and commitment if they are going to last. Thats not something you will see in a movie. I think our views on life have been too shaped by the media anyway. I think thats one reason why it takes us so long to mature as opposed to people 40 or 50 years ago.

[omgparticle]

relationship. I'm the ISTP, but I have always been very expressive with emotion and love towards her. (hold hands, touch, cards, flowers, verbal expressions, romance...).

Very Rarely, (that I know of ), have I missed it. I can probably count the times on one hand. Generally its becuase I see maybe just the facts, she sees(or maybe feels is the better term) the underlying emotion of a situation. Then, generally she gets emotinally built up to where she crys or gets angry, I have no clue tell then, then sometimes she'll get angry that I've had no clue. Then we talk it out and see where we're both coming from and then express how we feel about eachother and then its all better.

We've learned alot over the years on how each of us deals with things and communicates and we both try to help eachother out.

[XoX]

Oh, one other thing that's different - my husband is great at handling my spazzy and/or bitchy episodes. I am amazed by how patient he is with me because I can get in some real moods from time to time.

For me losing my temper would be more or less a "decision". I'm quite short tempered and I get annoyed about "negative" illogical behaviour really quick but I can control myself well ("bitchy episode" sounds as illogical as it can get ). Depending on a situation I either supress my anger or let it burst out. I try to sort of "predict" the outcome of each scenario and control myself if it seems it would only make things worse to show some emotion.

I'm not sure if people see me as a very controlled person or a hothead. I think this depends on a person. I guess most people see me as a controlled person but at least my long time friends have seen enough emotional outbursts to disagree.

But the concept of "bitchy episode" is very funny, very weird, and very scary at the same time. It is just so weird that someone sees as their natural born right to claim "now I will have a bitchy episode and I will bitch about everything for a certain amount of time". And if you ask "why? could we do something about it? " the answer is something I cannot write here. I mean..it is so illogical it sounds almost evil.

But as far as "positive" illogicality is concerned I mostly think it is cute. "Positive" illogicality is something I cannot understand but it still makes me feel good.

[XoX]

The last time I got called 'cold and distant', wasn't in person. It was done over an email and after I read it, was quite shocked because I thought me and this person were getting along quite well. Guess I thought wrong, ha. It's made me very mistrusful of people too because I always think we're getting along until they drop the 'you're so cold' bomb on me so I just assume everyone is going to end up saying that so I dont really even invest my time anymore into things unless I really like the person.

I can relate to your post almost completely. Especially the above part. Something similar has happened to me many times. Most annoying it is when it happens like you described. When everything seems to be in place it hits. It is like you think everything is great, you feel good, future looks promising, you go to bed happy and smiling and full of enthusiasm. Then you wake up, read your email and "BOOM". It feels like someone is shooting your heart with a nuke. Everytime it happens it leaves a new little scar. For me it can happen in romantic relationships, friendships, even more formal kind of relationships. I'm very sensitive to this kind of things.

Maybe you might want to try relationship with an identical. I have my doubts but after a certain amount of time maybe one or both of you would open up. It might be easier to trust someone if you know they think like you. But then again...I'm not sure.

But anyways...if I look at this forum ISTps are pretty open about their feelings here. More so than many other types. If someone who had not read the type descriptions would come here he might think ISTps are _the_ emotional type :wink:

@ all ISTPs:

By the way, thanks for sharing so much information about yourselves, here and in other threads. It has helped me a lot. I treat ISTPs differently now. Their reserve always used to scare me off. I thought it was a sign that they dislike you.

Now you know it is just a sign that they mistrust you. Sometimes even distrust you. That must feel a lot better, eh?

[Arcanum]

Do you guys feel some type of interconnectedness within quadra members? I say this because so far all the comments made about istps make them sound like really good friends. Actually, the fact that they are distant and guard their emotions seems very logical to me. When I read the part about them being referred to as cold when they really weren't really makes me feel bad, since I hate big misunderstandings (as i've said before). Man, that's terrible...

[schrödinger's cat]

But the concept of "bitchy episode" is very funny, very weird, and very scary at the same time. It is just so weird that someone sees as their natural born right to claim "now I will have a bitchy episode and I will bitch about everything for a certain amount of time". And if you ask "why? could we do something about it? " the answer is something I cannot write here. I mean..it is so illogical it sounds almost evil.

I don't think she sees it as her natural born right. Bitchy episodes just happen. Bottling it up doesn't help, usually. It's generally better to let off steam. It's a bit like the silent episodes men have, and *gets back on topic with a bump* don't ISTPs get those too? Times where you're on "standby" mode and ignore people, and if someone asks you a question you answer in monosyllables? There's a quote that exactly fits an ISTP I know when he's in that kind of mood. "If I want to hear your opinion, I'll beat it out of you."

[XoX]

Do you guys feel some type of interconnectedness within quadra members?

I do like my quadra.

Despite being very different functionally I agree with pretty much everything INFj people say. I have limited experience from INFjs in real life but they seem to be deep, caring and trustworthy people. Their logic is more solid than that of many other F-types Their humor is quite appealing. In a long-term relationship I would hardly ever conflict with an INFj. The main problem might be lack of common interests. INFjs are sort of "mystical" people for me and they might not be as interested in purely sensual experiences. And I might not be able to completely relate to their taste of art, movies and such things.

ENFps are my duals so I have to like them I think I couldn't really be angry to an ENFp (but annoyed yes). They are charming, the way they think inspires me, I can connect with them quite well. I could get temporarily bored with them however. And the approach to sensual experiences is probably quite different from mine which might be frustrating.

Sadly no ESTjs here I have worked with one and it was very fruitful. We understood each other. I could come up with lots of different possible paths of action and he could quickly decide which to take and made sure we stayed on the chosen path (I question my decisions everyday). They could lighten up a bit though :wink: They are often kinda serious and judging. They have a strong opinion of "normal" and "abnormal" behaviour which can get annoying and boring after a while.

I'm getting too analytical again I think I try to do this again with some emo...

I love my quadra! The people here rock. I relate to you very well. We are the king of quadras and let no one tell you otherwise. I would not want to belong to any other quadra

[XoX]

I don't think she sees it as her natural born right. Bitchy episodes just happen.

Am I being too T or too male if I have a hard time accepting the concept of "just happen"? I just like to think there is always a reason behind every problem that can be understood and corrected. I mean if I could just understand what is the underlying cause of the bitchy episode I might be able to pour some love there and make it all go away That would feel so good. My hidden agenda agrees.

It's a bit like the silent episodes men have, and don't ISTPs get those too? Times where you're on "standby" mode and ignore people, and if someone asks you a question you answer in monosyllables? There's a quote that exactly fits an ISTP I know when he's in that kind of mood. "If I want to hear your opinion, I'll beat it out of you."

I do have a silent episode. It is called "life". But seriously speaking I might have these silent episodes you mean. I have to ask my wife. However, I like to think there is a reason behind them. I'm just...not always willing to explain that reason unless I believe the other person can understand it. Maybe it is like this with bitching too? Or is bitching something even the person herself doesn't understand? Not even afterwards? Is it somekind of physical phenomena like a hormone imbalance which can only be "cured" by physical not mental means? I like to think I have a "switch" for every mental mode. They can be turned on and off if you know how. So why there shouldn't be a switch to turn bitching off? Damn. I'm overanalyzing again.

But ok. I try not to take bitching that seriously in the future. But how should I react to it? Just ignore it? Somehow support it? Submit to it? Umm.

And I do kinda like this idea of a built-in Mars/Venus thing it just isn't something I'm used to. I'm not sure if it is a Finnish thing or a family thing or what but I'm not used to think of men and women as totally different species. Maybe they are then...socionics should include Mars and Venus subtypes to all type descriptions.

[Slacker]

Hmm when my husband gets home I'll have to ask him how it makes him feel when I lose my temper. Sometimes he seems a bit upset but sometimes he seems amused.

It isn't something I can control. I've lost my temper at times other than with my husband. I remember completely freaking one boss out. He was afraid I was going to quit and called HR to get me a raise. LOL

It's like I get worked up about something, not always with good reason, and then the pressure builds up and I lose it. But once I lose it, it's all over. It doesn't last long.

I do think it is at least in part hormonal as it seems to generally follow my cycle.

My husband gets very quiet when he's angry like schrödinger's cat said. I hate that and my instinct is to keep pestering him until he starts talking. We both have anger, we just display it differently.

I don't think duality is "magical" either, just that the issues that come up seem to come much less often and are much easier to get through. All relationships require some give and take. I was 28 when I got married and have been in enough relationships to be able to make comparisons.

[MySaviour]

But the concept of "bitchy episode" is very funny, very weird, and very scary at the same time. It is just so weird that someone sees as their natural born right to claim "now I will have a bitchy episode and I will bitch about everything for a certain amount of time". And if you ask "why? could we do something about it? " the answer is something I cannot write here. I mean..it is so illogical it sounds almost evil.

I don't think she sees it as her natural born right. Bitchy episodes just happen. Bottling it up doesn't help, usually. It's generally better to let off steam. It's a bit like the silent episodes men have, and *gets back on topic with a bump* don't ISTPs get those too? Times where you're on "standby" mode and ignore people, and if someone asks you a question you answer in monosyllables? There's a quote that exactly fits an ISTP I know when he's in that kind of mood. "If I want to hear your opinion, I'll beat it out of you."

Exactly.

Wow, my ex could have written that reply to my bitchy episodes...eerie. Well, I don't even blame ISTps for not being able to relate, but the very fact that they obviously cannot respect that I' have a way of compensating frustration that is MY OWN and find "bad irrationality" weird, ridiculous, whatever, but "good irrationality" cute goes to show that they have a certain agenda in mind when being with ENFps: "Be my cute little darling, but keep your irrationality positive, will ya? It's annoying otherwise."

So if ENFps get annoyingly irrational and you can get temporarily bored with them, how can duality be magical? How can an ENFp truly be him/herself and feel respected? I don't see it. I didn't feel respected for precisely those and other reasons, thus my attitude towards duality. The ISTp could never truly relate to me and many times we were both rather lonely in the relationship. What you write about bitchy episodes goes to show that ISTps can compensate through analysis and adjustment of behavior, but they cannot truly relate. I found that frustrating.

Ahahaha. You are the most ENFp ENFp I've ever heard speak.

[XoX]

Well, I don't even blame ISTps for not being able to relate, but the very fact that they obviously cannot respect that I' have a way of compensating frustration that is MY OWN and find "bad irrationality" weird, ridiculous, whatever, but "good irrationality" cute goes to show that they have a certain agenda in mind when being with ENFps: "Be my cute little darling, but keep your irrationality positive, will ya? It's annoying otherwise."

I just happen to like a positive atmosphere and I have problems with a negative atmosphere. Positive people act like a magnet and negative people like an anti-magnet. I'm sorry if you feel this shows disrespect towards you or ENFps. "Irrational negativity" just doesn't sound very appealing

So if ENFps get annoyingly irrational and you can get temporarily bored with them, how can duality be magical?

Duality might (in theory) provide more and take less than any other relations. I'm not sure if this is magical and I'm not too idealistic about this thing or many other things for that matter. And in the end socionics might put too much weight on stereotypes. Duality is an interesting idea however and I can see how it could work for myself and it is worth exploring. As an interesting fact I have spent most my life with ST types. Some of it with NT types and a little bit with SF types. I don't think I've spent too much time with NF types so duality sure isn't an instant success.

What you write about bitchy episodes goes to show that ISTps can compensate through analysis and adjustment of behavior, but they cannot truly relate. I found that frustrating.

I don't think I have truly related to anyone in my life it that sense. If I go further with the Mars/Venus theme maybe it is not possible for a man and a woman to ever truly relate? The gender specific "natural" agendas are different. Maybe they are like different species. But they sure can complement each other. Is it possible for a unique individual to truly truly relate to anyone else but maybe his/her identical twin if even that. This issue is related to the soulmate thing supposedly. When younger I struggled with this issue to some extent, came to a conclusion that in a material world this kind of idealistic perfect match is probably not possible. I have solved this problem quite successfully via spirituality. With that arrives a deep sense of interconnectedness of all life and all humans which is stronger than any functional compatibility could ever bring. Of course the idea of finding a soulmate still sounds quite interesting. But personally I would not be looking for an identical person as a soulmate but a yin-yang kind of match which duality looks like to me. One is mostly black with some white and the other is mostly white with some black.

[XoX]

I like to think I have a "switch" for every mental mode. They can be turned on and off if you know how. So why there shouldn't be a switch to turn bitching off?

By a "switch" I don't mean a stick approach to "silence" bitching I mean more like a carrot approach to change the mood towards the positive end of the spectrum (like pics of puppies). The idea was more or less demonstrated above by Arcanum.

[schrödinger's cat]

The Bitchy Switch

or

Don't Try This At Home

Perhaps it's fun to make this into a questionnaire? It's a bit long, so pick out the bits you like to answer. It's mainly for ENFPs and ISTPs, male and female, but if other types want to participate - heck, why not.

I.: What it feels like when I'm being bitchy/depressed/tense (whatever)

(a) How does it begin? Is there a sense of mounting tension first, or does it happen out of the blue?

(b) How do I feel?

(c) Can I control it? (Like making sure my partner doesn't get undue blame, or making sure I don't hit his PoLR...)

(d) How does it end? Does it wear itself out? What makes it go away more quickly and easily? (Like: being on my own; being able to write it all down; listening to certain music...)

(e) What do I feel afterwards: relief, sadness, energy, anger, joy,...?

II: Why and when does it happen?

(a) after I've successfully dealt with a difficult problem

(b) when I'm mentally exhausted (after a difficult day, or when things at work are chaotic, or if I feel claustrophobic or bored or lonely,...)

(c) when I'm physically exhausted, or hungry, drunk, in pain, PMSed, ADDed, PTSDed,... Or during the winter, on Mondays, at night, at four o'clock in the morning...

(d) when I've had to function for too long in a way that doesn't come naturally to me

(e) if I've been too nice for too long and have pushed away my "negative feelings" because

-- I was afraid to be a burden to anyone
-- I genuinely wanted to help (f.expl. to cheer sb. up, or to help sb. through a depression, or to resolve a conflict at home or at work,...)
-- I hate confrontation and chickened out when I should have been assertive
-- my NeFi needs to focus on positive possibilities, and it's only when things have become extreme that my other functions assert themselves and remind me that it's time to focus on the shitty things and yell a little
-- I was afraid of losing face
-- I automatically understood everyone's point of view and only afterwards understood my own

(f) if I feel I lack options (like: being dependent on others; feeling trapped; feeling I can't change certain things that frustrate me; being stuck with the hairdo from hell;...)

(e) because I'm in the right and life SUCKS and my partner is HORRIBLE and my hair looks so bad the hairdresser ought to be SHOT


III: What can others to help me (or to avoid making it worse)?

(a) realize it's not their fault / be open to the possibility that it's their fault

(b) leave me alone / keep me company

(c) act as if it isn't a big deal / pay me a lot of attention / both

(d) listen without blaming me or giving me advice / listen and give me advice / listen, give me advice and remind me of my own shortcomings

(e) buy me chocolate or make me a cup of tea or fry me a steak

(f) join in and help me invent new swearwords

(g) quietly hand me the old china so I can smash it

(h) ...?

IV: What can you do to make it better / prevent it from happening?

-- Examples: listening to certain music, or exercise, or eat certain things, or stop drinking coffee, or tidy up the flat, or go out and fell a tree...

[Tepa]

XoX: I'm female and feel the same way you do about "bitching episodes", so I don't think it has anything to do with gender.

[XoX]

XoX: I'm female and feel the same way you do about "bitching episodes", so I don't think it has anything to do with gender.

Ok..it is not related to T or gender...then umm...it is just a personal thing I guess. Maybe socionics + gender can't explain everything :wink:

And schrödinger's cat I get back to the questionare later. I'm quite busy with studies atm and it looks like some thought process is needed

[meatburger]

Hey all,

I feel like at the moment i need to curb a bit of lonliness. My parents are away for a long time, i live alone and my mates all have girlfriends, except me.

Im thinking i can do one of 2 things..

1) Try to pick up a bit, go out and get laid. Im not sure how good i would be at doing this? The two times i have tried i succeeded but its a major effort for me to do it as i dont see many people as worthy and if i do i get the jitters lol. I have a feeling if i really wanted to i could use my charm very well though.

or

2) Stay home, let myself get over my ex and just relax. Go out with mates a bit

There is also a third option.. Thinking about my Dual. I am curious about ISTP as i think i do want a good lasting relationship. What scares me a bit is the coldness. It will take some adjusting for me to see this as normal and not freak out.

[FDG]

ISTps aren't really cold in close relationships in my experience; it all depends on:

- Whether they are assholes
- Whether they have had bad experiences

Where the conclusion 2 might entail conclusion 1.

The only complain I've heard consistently on ISTps is some kind of inconsistency of feelings.

[meatburger]

Thanks bro.. I love the ENTJ. My closest mate is one. We have the weirdest sense of humour. Only thing is when he whoops my arse when playing every sport game ever invented lol.

Well if i decide to tap some girls you will all hear about it rest assured lol.

How does one pick my dual out. I think once i find on ISTP girl i will be able to pick them all but i dont understand what to look for. Seems like they appear confident, un-emotional, watch for my body and facial language(thats exactly what i do aswell)?

Would i likely find them in risk taking activities like Downhill mountian biking or sky diving? Its strange i have never been able to get this chick out of my mind i saw when i tried sky diving once. She was an instructor. Maybe she was my dual?

[Rocky]

I recommend not "looking" for any perticular type. But that's just me.

[meatburger]

Hmm yeah i know what you mean. Its not like i would be actively looking extremely hard. Its just i would like to know what to look for as i am interested in the idea of duality.

[duntee]

I know this is pretty old, but the idea of you wanting to meet your dual seems as if your taking this too literally.

I understand what you mean because even though I am a mature adult that knows a one page analysis is not going to lead me to "the one" or one of the ones, it doesn't hurt to think that there could be someone out there made for you.

But if you get caught up in trying to type every person you meet you could miss out on great ppl or end up with not so great ones. you also tend to lose your independence of thought and start thinking in terms of what the type descriptions said you should be like, rather than actually being yourself.

any way my two cents

[XoX]

Go for the ISTp! You need to get them now before they are older and devastated and have built an everlasting wall around them. You need to get the ISTps young and then teach them to open up and then it is perfect. You might already be late though!

[duntee]

I'm 23, is that too late!!?

[meatburger]

Hey Duntee,

Yeah back then possibly i was. When meeting new people, i dont really care about their types. I can have fun with any type and dont discriminate. When it comes to getting into relationships however i still do take it seriously. I have been friends / had relationships with many of the types now so i know how they work. After a few shitty relationships i have decided that an ISTp would be awesome.

I realise now how sexy they are. They are loyal. They have fire. Challenge. There are a couple at work and i like them a lot. I enjoy making them laugh. I can tell when other relationships are not happy with each other and i would personally rather be single than have that.

Xox i hope its not too late but i would never think that even if i was 60

[XoX]

I'm 23, is that too late!!?

Xox i hope its not too late but i would never think that even if i was 60

Ok I have a new theory. You either have to get them young. Which means around age of 20 or before that. People often try to establish longer lasting and serious relationships between age 20-30 and that is when most ISTps get their fingers burned I think.

Now I would think that when you get older things might get easier again. This time it is because of ENFps. Young ENFps jump around going into bad relationships with people until they finally understand that if they ever want a stable relationship it has to be with an ISTp. At this point they become less critical towards ISTps weaknesses and start to see them as the best option there is. Of course at this point they will have to work hard because the ISTp is already emotionally dead and given up on serious relationships. I think this happens at around 30-40 or even later. However ISTp can't be tought to be open anymore so the ENFp has to adapt more at this point. Getting them young is better.

[meatburger]

I personally had a hard time growing up so im only really comming out of my shell now

However ISTp can't be tought to be open anymore so the ENFp has to adapt more at this point. Getting them young is better.

That is a challenge i would love to take and would love to prove you wrong in. I dare any ISTp to resist my charm for long :wink:

[meatburger]

I want to clear something up. I couldn't be more against the idea of "the one". That to me is total hogwash. That there is one person out there made perfectly for another. Omg i would go insane thinking that. One person out of 6 billion, well our chances of meeting wouldn't be very good. Im sure out of every person in the world there is one who is the best for you but there are 10's of thousands that are also very good.

I suppose i do put a lot of faith in socionics. Maybe i have lost perspective in it but it seems strange to me that years before i knew about socionics i met an INFj, and ENFp, and ISFp, two ISTp guys and two ESTj guys. We are all really great friends and i have often thought to myself if i could find a girl like them(without all the hair etc ) it would be great.

I was in a shitty incompatible relationship and while in that one a really great girl was interested in me. I turned her down as i was with someone else. Now she is no longer single and that ship has sailed. Due to reasons like this i recommend against jumping into a fling with someone without first seriously considering if your right for each other.

[FDG]

I want to clear something up. I couldn't be more against the idea of "the one". That to me is total hogwash. That there is one person out there made perfectly for another. Omg i would go insane thinking that. One person out of 6 billion, well our chances of meeting wouldn't be very good. Im sure out of every person in the world there is one who is the best for you but there are 10's of thousands that are also very good.

There are just different degrees of compatibility, though of corse in a certain domain of the planet earth there are going to be only a selected number of people whose compatibility is on the 90th+ percentile bounds; it's not a necessary requirment; the real problem is that once you have dated only for a small amount of time sombody whose compatibility with you was very high, it is pretty impossible to return back to "lower" levels without feeling like shit.

[schrödinger's cat]

My ISTp boyfriend has kinda "withdrawn" himself from the relationship recently.
And yes, he IS very cold towards me now.
It's making me afraid of being with another ISTp.
Yet, i felt really comfortable with him in the beginning of the relationship.

I had that too. Turned out he was feeling so comfortable in my presence that he just... let go. Usually he'd come home, stalk into the living room, collapse into an armchair, stare into empty space with a stony expression on his face, then say how tired he was and how he didn't feel at all like chatting. Then he'd read the paper. And that was IT.

A few days ago he went: "...so you got the impression I wasn't interested in you anymore?! Golly, I never realized..."

Fe PoLR.

[mikemex]

I've had lots of dual interaction over my life and I can say that things can get heated time to time. Probably most of what happened is particular of me and not ENFp in general, but anyway, I would like to get comments on this:

CASE 1:

I am an inventor and developed the permanent magnet braking concept. Requested a patent and went to Volkswagen (among others) to offer it. The chief of the research and development department was an ISTp.

I took the experiment with us (my father is inventor too) and went to see this person. He was talking about making a prototype. I said "well, here is the experiment, if the experiment works, then the prototype is no problem". I gave them a sheet with the mathematic proof that it was capable of braking a car.

However, he rubbed me the bad way when he said "no, you can't say that it works without building a prototype". I tried to be diplomatic and tell him that I was sure that the experiment worked well before building it. But kept saying "no you can't" until I literally exploited and told him "Yeah, I CAN!" looking at him directly to the eyes. He took it very, very personally and we almost fought there. Thing is, that most people (or probably because he's a sensor) can't handle things in their minds it doesn't mean that nobody can, and I do not stand that people negates my abilities.

CASE 2:

I was talking to a friend of mine (ISTp too, I'm talking about my duals only) about electric installations and he told me that he was paying too much on electricity. I suggested him to check for a grounded cable and he replied "why? that doesn't affect the consumption at all". Then we started to argue about it, trying to convince him that electricity, even if it's only one pole, goes trough the measurement unit and thus counts as consumption, because it's altern current and does 60 cycles per second. He immediately started to rub me that I was a theoretical guy and that I didn't know anything about real world installations and that he had been doing so for years and things like that. Thing is, I've been doing electrical installations since I was a child but not only that, I know the physical principles by which all electric and electronic circuits work, so there is nothing in a house which is mysterious to me.

CASE 3:

I was talking to a friend from this forum about my idea that intuition evolved from sensing. He immediately took it as personal saying that I was wrong to suggest that sensors are less evolved and things like that. My argument about it is not a political one. I do not think some persons are better than others. I was just stating it from a technical point of view.

I'm a computer programmer. I've been programming since I was 8 years old and I think I have a perfect understanding of the operation of computers in general, so well that I've designed improved hardware.

Some years ago I decided to try graphics programming, specially computer game programming, and I studied the ways a computer stores graphical information. To put a long history in a few words, there are two ways: literal (vertex/triangles) and parametric (solids, nurbs, etc). Parametric systems require far less memory to store similar basic shapes. With the same amount of information you will generally get much more complex shapes in solids (paramentric) systems than in meshes (literal).

So my argument that intuition is more evolved than sensing comes from that idea: intuitives pre-process information and discard the original sensory information as they do it, which allows the mind to handle more information at once, but not only that, gives a way to conceptual thinking. It allows the mind to process more information because sensors, keeping the original sensory data, need to process it every time they need to make use of it again. In intuitives only what the information represents is stored, so it is always kept in a way the mind can use it directly. Sure, intuitives do not remember odors, colors and such well, but they possess intellectual abilities which can compensate for such loses. So the argument that sensor-intuitive relationships are symmetrical doesn't seem to make sense to me.

COMMENTS:

I've always wondered if ISTp are sometimes overconfident in their thinking abilities and are at times quite sensible about others opposing their views. It also happens to me with my INTp girlfriend. I believe that they expect blind agreement from their ethical duals, as if they couldn't reason for themselves. But I'm right more often than not and, since I don't give in, conflict starts.

However, I don't think either is truly an analytical type. If they were so then they would rub me like ESTp do with minor inconsistencies and logical correctness. I think that rather than being analytical, Te types tend to collect lots of information and throw it at the proper time, which works very well if they are well educated and know their field in depth, but doesn't work when it requires actual reasoning and synthesis and handling of concepts, specially in speculative discussions. I do not consider myself infallible, but I've been practicing my reasoning skills all of my life and I'm in fields which require constant use of my logical side, so I'm used to state my ideas confidently. I truly value, however, the constructive criticism and change my views accordingly to well backed up arguments.

I know that sometimes I seem arrogant, but I'm really not. It's simply that I defend the ideas I consider are right to death, despite any social conventions. For me, that matters in everything is the truth, whatever it is.

All ISTp I know are like this, so imagine me that I'm used to argue as a sport. I like constructive discussions but not fighting with my friends...

[olduser]

I know that sometimes I seem arrogant, but I'm really not. It's simply that I defend the ideas I consider are right to death, despite any social conventions. For me, that matters in everything is the truth, whatever it is.

I read your post. You do seem arrogant. This is because you toss out an idea, give it one sentence, and consider it final. Even for an intutive person, that is too little information to create a worthwhile understanding. You seem to think ignoring details makes you better than everyone else. That said-- I don't doubt you, but you have yet to prove anything, and it definitely seems you have something to prove.

[mikemex]

I mean, ISTp, having low intuition, can become quite impatient on discussions based on it and thus become blunt or disagreeable. Like INTp, they tend to believe they are always right.

[IcEPiCk]

People using intuition tend to think they are rigth far more often then sensors. In fact I can say I was wrong to a persons face when I am presented with proper evidence. If it is explained to us in a logical manner we will have no problems saying 'you are right'. You cant just think you are right because in your mind you have thought of it so. Many intuitives are bad at this, that is why INFjs will think they were riht after an argument most of the time. INTps can be bad to, depending on how they express themselves. There is such a thing as too much logic of course.

Anyways because the ISTp has low intuition they tend to consider the what ifs pretty well and analyse. ISTps are very good at seeing THE PROBLEM with things because they can analyse in a certain manner. Blunt or disagreeable? No. Skeptical? Hell ya. Until presented with the practicality, logic, or a pattern of some sort to justify something, we will stand by our guns in an argument.

just because 1+1=2, doesnt mean A+B=2. You didnt show me what the hell A or B is.. oh ok A=(B-2) awsome thanks

We become angry when the other side doesnt even hear or consider what we are saying because in their mind they are made up already... and there in lies the problem

[IcEPiCk]

People using intuition tend to think they are rigth far more often then sensors. In fact I can say I was wrong to a persons face when I am presented with proper evidence. If it is explained to us in a logical manner we will have no problems saying 'you are right'. You cant just think you are right because in your mind you have thought of it so. Many intuitives are bad at this, that is why INFjs will think they were riht after an argument most of the time. INTps can be bad to, depending on how they express themselves. There is such a thing as too much logic of course.

Anyways because the ISTp has low intuition they tend to consider the what ifs pretty well and analyse. ISTps are very good at seeing THE PROBLEM with things because they can analyse in a certain manner. Blunt or disagreeable? No. Skeptical? Hell ya. Until presented with the practicality, logic, or a pattern of some sort to justify something, we will stand by our guns in an argument.

just because 1+1=2, doesnt mean A+B=2. You didnt show me what the hell A or B is.. oh ok A=(B-2) awsome thanks

We become angry when the other side doesnt even hear or consider what we are saying because in their mind they are made up already... and there in lies the problem

[Mea]

Err. I think what you said made sense. Probably intuitives do have this problem. That they tend to think they're right.

[TangoxOfxSin]

I'm not sure if it's really just an intuitive problem, though I can admit that there are certain times I feel like I just know the answer and want to tell someone "you're wrong." Maybe where it lies is that intuitives feel like they have thought of all the alternatives and so what they settled on is the best one? But on the flip side, I have been conflicted with stubborn sensors because of ignorance, just not wanting to accept other alternatives because they haven't experienced it first hand. I find that this happens a lot with xxTj types with me personally, or Ts and Js in general.

[meatburger]

I wonder how good dual friends are. I had a dual friend in school for ages and we still catch up but he just doesn't seem to care much and i can easily do without him.

I went out with an ISTp i met at work tonight and he just thinks so much like me its amazing. He's traditional its like i know he wants an ENFp for a girlfriend. He said to me tonight he wants a chick whos a bit firery and fun. Tonight he was making a move on this gorgeous girl from work and i was really happy for him. Hes a calm and nice ISTp who doesn't sleep around at all. He seems to have integrity. Best ISTp ive ever met.

[anndelise]

my best friend from gradeschool to middle school to highschool is an istp. I mentioned her somewhat recently on the forum, i'll look for it and copy it to this thread.

One of the great things was we could be walking through a crowded hall and i'd make a comment about "that's a bright color" or "a bit tight ain't it?" or some cryptic criticism, and she'd laugh and start talking about it as if she'd been thinking that at the moment i said it. She always knew what i was referring to.

After high school and before she joined the military, we'd go out to shoot pool or such, dressed not as hookers but dressed pretty hot....and ..um...well...had no issues teasing whatever poor guy dropped himself into our clutches.

She used to travel a lot, and she'd always tell me about what various foreign places were like, giving me all the details i enjoy, and very few of the details I don't care about. I'd sometimes have to ask questions about the people involved, but other than that she covered everything for me.

i'll go look now for that one post that mentions her....

[anndelise]

found it...one of the benefits of not posting as much is that recent posts are very easy to find....hehe

the conversation reminds me of the one i had with my istp best friend back in junior high...the conversation was when we were in 7th grade, walking home.

i considered her my best friend, we always hung out together in school, we walked each other home,
but we didn't spend time together past that...cuz my father never let me go anywhere

i asked her if i was her best friend
she looked at me funny and said no
this totally surprised me
then i asked if i was her second best friend
again she said no
you mean she's got two people that she prefers over me????
then i asked if i was her third best friend
she laughed and said no, and told me not to worry about it
(ok ok, i admit, by this time i was acting kind of needy/desperate)
she pointed out that we spend our school time together, we have fun, we're obviously friends, so what more is needed??

it took me months to get over this devestating blow
until i started to realize that just because she was my best friend doesn't necessarily mean that I am hers
and which is more important to me? having her as my best friend....or being considered her best friend?
i wouldn't have changed the times we spent together at all

there were times when our friendship was tested:
in high school, my father went through a lot of effort to try to keep her and i away from each other,
calling the school to insist they seperate our classes, telling the school lies about her
it got so bad that the school called her parents to find out what was going on
her parents sat her down one evening and had a talk with her
she explained to them a lot of what was going on in my home
they informed her that if she wanted to continue being my friend, and wanted to fight the crap my father was doing, that they would support her
and she did, she remained by my side through all the crap i went through
she was a very very good friend to me

alas, i wasn't such a good friend to her
after i ran away, she invited me out to eat, or to hang out, etc
but i was generally so caught up in my own little world that i never returned the attentions
but, she didn't seem to mind....i don't know what she thought of those times, but i think if i were to ask her now, she'd say something like...."life happens"

every once in a while we look each other up, catch up, and then "life happens" and we lose track of each other again
but when we do talk...it's like ....like we're still "best friends"....and she still teases me about that conversation!!!