SLI-IEE duality discussion (ISTp and ENFp)

[Creepy-ENFpChick]

As an ENFP I have limited technical ability so not sure if I'm replying in the "right" way but oh well.

I find this whole ENFP ISTP dual conversation fascinating...so I'll just jump in.

Someone asked about the ENFP ENTP experience. Well, it's really exciting initially and lots of talk and spontaneous fun but then it's just overwhelming. I find ENTPs too wild and too talkative and too disorganized and too intellectual. We're just too alike and it burns out fast.

QUESTION: Other Myers-Briggs sites say that ENFPs get along well with INFJs or INTJs and that the "N" similarity is so key. This "theory" seems to contradict the socionic idea of ENFP-ISTP duality. What are people "experience" with this?

[Angel von Himmel]

QUESTION: Other Myers-Briggs sites say that ENFPs get along well with INFJs or INTJs and that the "N" similarity is so key. This "theory" seems to contradict the socionic idea of ENFP-ISTP duality. What are people "experience" with this?

Myer-Briggs is full of crap when it start to talk about type relations. I once read an MBTI ENTp description somewhere that said the natural partner for the ENTp is the ISFJ, which is total bullcrap considering that the one ISFj girl I tried to have a relationship turned almost overnight into an obsessive color-matching and nagging bitch.

Of course, the description probably ment ISFj as in socionic's ISFp , but I still think Myer-Briggs is full of crap regardless. My mother is socionic's ISFp and I get along with her great.

[Creepy-pokeball]

MBTI ISFJ is Si Fe Ti Ne. MBTI usually gives Socionics semi-duals the best likelyhood of success because of the stats on SJ/SP and NT/NF marriage combo successes. So the MBTI INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) would be their best bet for my overall success.

I dont think either theory structure is bad. I do, however, think some MBTI is useless because of the amout of people that know it. These theory structures can be just as biased as politics sometimes lol. Its kinda sick =p

[MySaviour]

MBTI ISFJ is Si Fe Ti Ne. MBTI usually gives Socionics semi-duals the best likelyhood of success because of the stats on SJ/SP and NT/NF marriage combo successes. So the MBTI INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) would be their best bet for my overall success.

I dont think either theory structure is bad. I do, however, think some MBTI is useless because of the amout of people that know it. These theory structures can be just as biased as politics sometimes lol. Its kinda sick =p

Yea.. I agree.. I usually see supervisory or illusionary relations as the ideal combo on MBTI sites.

[IcEPiCk]

No, exactly. And that is why I don't engage in the dual frenzy.

If u do not wish to engage in the dual frenzy... It will engage you eventually later in life... Especially if you are an ENFP...

maybe not now, maybe not when you are 50, but you will feel the power of duality sometime in your life...

That is not to say ENFPs and INTJs and whom ever else wont last, but duality is a VERY powerful thing.

:wink:

[IcEPiCk]

its funny that its also what draws the ENFP to the ISTP...

the challenge of manipulating our emotions which we try to close off...


U will notice when an ISTP is upset they may not look in your eyes, its almost an attempt so you cant read their souls... Never works though I think you still read right through me..

Im out so tired

good nite all

[Megan]

I think it is essential for her to know that your emotional coldness has nothing to do with her. That is one of the hardest things for an ENFp to understand. Reassurance![/quote]

What do you imagine the ISTp's coldness has to do with?
ISTps are very difficult for anyone including ENFps to deal with at least initially.

Kim
I am sure you can readily see that implied's partner is truly an ISTp and so can I.
So many things need to be right for dual relationships to work that I think the chances of finding one that works in this lifetime for a non-professional relationship is extremely slender. ISTps want to love I truly believe that, they just do not know or have the energy to do so in many cases. Love is not effortless not even in duality. Duality is not the cure for lazy unloving tendencies. Perhaps the way to an ENFps heart is to learn in a methodical albeit unromantic way how to really love and give of oneself unselfishly.

[IcEPiCk]

the problem is the enfp street of emotions is a 6 lane hiway, ours is a like an alley way that is very dark... hard to get anywhere



People just dont get us ISTPs sometimes I think?

[NeonMonk]

We get you, and we try to get those emotions out. We want to get them out. But in my experience, it's like trying to draw blood from a stone. We know they're there, and sometimes you'll say the right words... but words are never enough for an ENFP, and after a while, we feel drained - we need that emotional response.

[IcEPiCk]

some ISTPs will realize this, I have thanks to socionics and speaking to other ENFPs...

I know to be more open... I cant always do it through words. Through gifts, through actions, and in extreme cases writing on cards (you dont even know how hard it was each step along the way lol).

I forced the blood out.

[IcEPiCk]

not all ISTPs are brick walls...

Thats exactly the point I am making, it depends what they have been through...


There is no point if you try and there is no feedback but with anything worth having there is effort required.

I do not think ENFPs are 'flighty'... You are easily bored. Thats not a generalization, and not a bad thing either. ISTPs are unpredictable and it serves as a sort anti boredom device I would say.

Yes, and you are emotional... Whats wrong with that?

[Creepy-enfp rosie]

I'm an ENFP and I'm curious about this whole idea of ideal dual relationships with ITSPs. There are lots of things about ISTps that are really appealling to me: earthy and sensual; adventurous; non-conformist; loyal; focus on details and practical stuff (someone has to after all 'cause I don't like to); optimistic and liking excitement and new experiences.

On the other hand, the fact that ISTPs are not good at expressing emotion/affection, can be afraid of deeper emotions and have a tendency to be commitment phobic is not at all appealling.

So I'm curious to hear from ENFPs, ISTPs and hopefully even some ENPF-ISTP couples in response. Is the ENFP ISTP combination rewarding? And how is the apparent emotional incompatibility addressed?

[MySaviour]

Appropriate levels of mutual emotional satiation results in quick, nonreversible, and untimely boredom.

Anyway, you'll probably enjoy the relationship.. your needs will be satisfied, for the most part. And by needs I mean the stuff you need, not the stuff you'd think you are in need of.

Note the uselessness of my post, as I can't help but not really comment as I am not an ISTp.

[Expat]

There is one ENFp poster, Nicky, who's married to an ISTp.

[Rocky]

Personally I like ENFps, but what is it about this emotional thing that you are bothered by?

[Creepy-enfp rosie]

I like people in relationships who are comfortable and open expressing affection 'cause as an ENFP I need that for something long term to last. My concern is that all the ISTP descriptions I've read imply that this type is quite reserved. Am I out to lunch? Or onto something?

[Rocky]

I like people in relationships who are comfortable and open expressing affection 'cause as an ENFP I need that for something long term to last. My concern is that all the ISTP descriptions I've read imply that this type is quite reserved. Am I out to lunch? Or onto something?

.. you sound more like an ENFj then...

[MySaviour]

I like people in relationships who are comfortable and open expressing affection 'cause as an ENFP I need that for something long term to last. My concern is that all the ISTP descriptions I've read imply that this type is quite reserved. Am I out to lunch? Or onto something?

.. you sound more like an ENFj then...

I'm afraid not. Made obvious, or held internally, ENFPs need that form of attention.

Basically, you get used to "asking" for an accomodation, and the ISTp gets used to accomodating..

The punchline is that the ISTp won't mind. As opposed to, say.. an INTp.

[Creepy-enfp rosie]

Interesting...I've always come out ENFp on any test I've taken but maybe I should check out ENFj. Why do I sound more like an ENFj?

[Creepy-enfp rosie]

So I just re-read the descriptions and there's no doubt in my mind anyway that I'm an ENFP.

I'm experiencing technical difficulties but I'm trying to reply to MySaviour. What you're saying is that if an ENFP asks an ISTP to be verbally affirming and affectionate then they will be? Is that right?

[Rocky]

Interesting...I've always come out ENFp on any test I've taken but maybe I should check out ENFj. Why do I sound more like an ENFj?

You could still be ENFp, but things like "open expression of emotions" sound more like someone who has Fe instead of Fi. The ENFps on here don't seem to want TOO much open emotions. Fi is more "hidden" or "understood" emotions.

[Creepy-enfp rosie]

Interesting...I've always come out ENFp on any test I've taken but maybe I should check out ENFj. Why do I sound more like an ENFj?

You could still be ENFp, but things like "open expression of emotions" sound more like someone who has Fe instead of Fi. The ENFps on here don't seem to want TOO much open emotions. Fi is more "hidden" or "understood" emotions.

OK, now I get you. I don't like it when things get too "mushy" yet my last relationship was with a INTj or INFj who was ridiculously shy and reserved so maybe I'm overcompensating now. Generally I like things to be FUN, SOCIAL and with VARIETY as a first priority.

[MySaviour]

So I just re-read the descriptions and there's no doubt in my mind anyway that I'm an ENFP.

I'm experiencing technical difficulties but I'm trying to reply to MySaviour. What you're saying is that if an ENFP asks an ISTP to be verbally affirming and affectionate then they will be? Is that right?

Yes. But ask Rocky for confirmation-- he's a living, breathing, tried by fire ISTp .

But as a side note, and to be clear, I should say that the ISTp would probably not be emotionally candid or supporting forever. In fact, the accomodation may not last much longer than the time it takes you to ask for it..

[Creepy-enfp rosie]

There is one ENFp poster, Nicky, who's married to an ISTp.

Thanks Expat. I'll try and find Nicky and chat with her. Much appreciated.

[Topaz]

I dont think Rosie is off the mark. This is a real concern for enfps. One of the things that can turn someone from just anybody into someone special to me is if they are willing to be physically close to me. Not neccessarily sexual but just close. If someone is constantly pulling away or does not like to be touched even in a friendly way, I may like them ok but I could never have deep feelings for them, esp not to the point of commitment.
Ive met women who were stunningly beautiful but so cool and detached that I just didnt know how to break the ice. On the other hand Ive known some rather plain girls who have sparked my interest just because they grabbed my arm and laughed with me, or gave me a peck on the cheek. It works like magic, Im telling you. If you ever want an enfp to fall in love with you, you will have to accept and even initiate some affection. Otherwise, you should go looking for another T type. :wink:

[jessica129]

I've known a few enfp's (or at least I think i have) and many are turned off by my apparent 'lack of interest'. They seem to poke and prod to get me to open up but it just puts me off even more. Then when they comment on how cold they think i am, I become so self conscious that I'm not being 'good enough', that I put on an act. Sometimes I manage to get lost in who i really am and who I think i should be. I have issues when it comes to showing affection... I wish more were understanding and didn't take it so personally. That's why i think I'm more compatible with T types although I find them cold and distant, aha, the irony.

[Topaz]

I've known a few enfp's (or at least I think i have) and many are turned off by my apparent 'lack of interest'. They seem to poke and prod to get me to open up but it just puts me off even more. Then when they comment on how cold they think i am, I become so self conscious that I'm not being 'good enough', that I put on an act. Sometimes I manage to get lost in who i really am and who I think i should be. I have issues when it comes to showing affection... I wish more were understanding and didn't take it so personally. That's why i think I'm more compatible with T types although I find them cold and distant, aha, the irony.

Jessica if its not prying for me to ask, is there an approach that would get you to open up to another person or do you perfer them to just take you at face value and not attmept to find out more about you? I dont know of any enfps that would tell a person directly that they are cold. That sounds rather harsh. Even if I thought that about a person I dont think I would say it to them. Do you take initiative in approaching others? How would you proceed in an intimate relationship or even a close friendship?
Personally I like easy relationships (doesnt everybody) The kind that are easy to start without a lot of pressure to be anything.
Finally, what kinds of issues do you have with showing affection? I know Im asking a lot of you and Im sorry. However, understanding of anothers position doesnt come out of the blue. It comes from talking about things. Otherwise the person is just left to their imagination about why a person acts a certain way.

[Topaz]

wow. Thanks Jessica. I like that last statement about just being who you are. I think its true that if an enfp wants to rush the relationship with the istp it wont work. So far as I can see they need a long time and lots of effort before they will trust someone. I have a friend that sends me so many mixed signals it drives me crazy, but I do value the relationship very much. I just dont always know what to make of it. Youve given me something to think about. Do you have other family members that are istp?

[IcEPiCk]

There will always be an enfp out there willing to break the ice, willing to dedicate more time to try to get a rise out of the ISTP I think.

It really depends on how scarred the ISTP is in the past and how much the ENFP can see past their emotional handicaps...

[Creepy-]

I never, ever initiate anything with a friend or potential relationship

I have talked to an male istp about this before, it's seems very difficult for them to form intimate relationships even when they are lonely because they simply find it soo hard to reach out to people. This applies also with friends but to a lesser extent. Very interesting post jessica

sorry about being a guest, i will get a username soon.

[Rocky]

Oh, and Jung said that the Si and Ni dominant types were the seemingly most "detached" ones and that they have the hardest time expressing themselves to others leaving them misunderstood or underappreciated by others.

[schrödinger's cat]

@ all ISTPs:

By the way, thanks for sharing so much information about yourselves, here and in other threads. It has helped me a lot. I treat ISTPs differently now. Their reserve always used to scare me off. I thought it was a sign that they dislike you. Knowing that ISTPs find it hard to open up and need to feel extra safe before they trust you fully has changed the way I look at them.

[baydog]

Im an enfp and looking back before i knew anything about socionics the istp's i knew i pretty much jived with them. I think they like talkative outgoing people. I pretty much clicked with them real well. I think culture and upbringing plays a big factor in which an istp would be a withdrawn suspicious person or someone who doesn't fit that stereotype.Actually many i known were plenty outgoing , humorous, and more talkative then me.I known some that were sorta quiet . One in particular i grew up with was a younger brother of a friend of mine( just 1 year younger the me and his brother). So i was like kinda fond of him so me and my friends like kinda took him under our wings. I noticed they tend to be more outgoing when in the company of combination esfp's-enfp's. In their company they sorta resemble their mirror, the ESTJ.

[Slacker]

The first several months my ISTp husband and I were married I kept trying to get him to express emotion all the time. He never did but I learned how to see his emotion in what he does. He goes out in the cold and takes my car to fill it with gas because he knows I hate that. That kind of thing. It's about seeing the feelings in other ways than being told. And while someone who is very verbally expressive with emotion is a nice ego boost for a while, it can get a bit too much for me after a relationship has been going for a while.

We have a very conflict-free marriage, and I like that. I feel comfortable talking to him about *anything* and I've never been like that with anyone - not even family.

[MySaviour]

The first several months my ISTp husband and I were married I kept trying to get him to express emotion all the time. He never did but I learned how to see his emotion in what he does. He goes out in the cold and takes my car to fill it with gas because he knows I hate that. That kind of thing. It's about seeing the feelings in other ways than being told. And while someone who is very verbally expressive with emotion is a nice ego boost for a while, it can get a bit too much for me after a relationship has been going for a while.

We have a very conflict-free marriage, and I like that. I feel comfortable talking to him about *anything* and I've never been like that with anyone - not even family.

You and an INFj have said something similar here, and I am just itching to combine the two thoughts, print them out, and put them on my wall... Just for the heck of it.

[Dreaming One]

I know this isn't at all the same, but I'm an ENFp female with an ISTp father, so I know how the types relate.

ISTps are awesome.

Seriously, I understand why my fellow ENFps would be confused by ISTp being our dual type. If I didn't have one in my family, I'd stick to fellow NFs, or go for NTs, due to similar interests, etc. But if you just interact with an ISTp long enough, being your usual self but not putting pressure on them, you start to notice a mind-boggling core similarity between the two of you. ISTps think totally differently (which keeps them from being boring, and let's face it...to ENFps, after a while, almost everyone becomes boring in a way), but somehow often arrive at the same conclusions as us ENFps. At least, that's what I've found. And that keeps conflict levels very low.

ISTps are soooo NOT cold-hearted. They're...detached, very logical, but also extremely loving and loyal. What Nicky said about paying attention to little things ISTps do is completely true. Sometimes it's almost funny. An ISTp will pay careful attention to any cues you give them, and if you don't directly ask for things, they seem to love anticipating your needs. That's how they show their love. I think they even get a kick out of it. Especially if you give them a true ENFp reaction, lol. And for an ENFp, it's great to have somebody else figure out what you need or want, especially if they figure it out before you do.

From what I've seen (okay ISTps, you can debate me on this one if I'm wrong), ISTps are terrified of rejection. When my dad was dating, he was hypersensitive to anything a woman did or said that might hint at her perceiving an inadequacy in him. Things like that could make him shut down, and more often than not, run away. I think that's why ENFps are so good for them. Usually we can't seem to help putting people at ease.

A problem could arise if you are (or come across as) a clingy, emotionally needy ENFp. Outwardly. Vocally. ISTps hate this, either because a) they worry about not being able to meet your needs and panic, or b) they resent being bogged down by emotional issues, which is enough to make their skin crawl. lol. I'm not sure if it's a or b, or both, but that commitment-phobic gene in them jumps right to the surface at that point. Self-preservation mode begins.

But oddly, ISTps like being there for somebody who needs them, and they aren't fully commitment-phobic. *blinks* Okay, maybe they are, but that doesn't mean they don't commit. The beauty of it is, ISTps have the ability to commit themselves, totally of their own free will, to another person. That's why the key to any kind of relationship with them is a lack of pressure. They hate pressure, and are at their worst when under it. It makes them rebel, or run.

I have a story for you as an example.

When my dad was in his early twenties, he married his highschool sweetheart. She was an ISFj. Everything was fine, until she kept on pressuring him to have kids, a house, and a white-picket fence. My dad didn't want to make all these plans, didn't want to willingly bring all sorts of messy, dreadful responsibility down on his head. So he divorced her and left her heart-broken. About two years later, he met my mother...whose type I'm usure of, but who was definitely a free-spirit. She already had a two-year-old daughter, but my dad took it in stride, since he wanted my mom. (To this day when questioned, he shrugs and says 'Well, the baby was part of the package. And she was cute.') My mom put no pressure on him, just had fun with him... and he was happy, loved my mom and big sister, and so stayed. Within three years he ended up with a house, and three kids, and didn't mind. It just happened, and he went with the flow. He never cheated, and was very loving and devoted to his family. I'm sure he grumbled from time to time about the responsibility, but ISTps are great at dealing with whatever comes their way. That doesn't mean they want to actively bring it to themselves. The future they can't handle. The present they can. Often with great humour.

I hope you ENFps are able to see the point of that story, lol. I find it to be very enlightening, myself. I think ENFps naturally have the carefree, low-pressure outlook on relationships that ISTps need. And obviously, vice-versa. I mean, come on ENFps...tell me you don't find yourself getting irritated or panicked when everyone around you gets clingy and emotionally possessive of you? We hate pressure, too. So it works.

*shrugs*

[Topaz]

Dreaming One, thats a great story and a terrific post. Thank you very much. It goes along with what Ive been noticing too. I think we get used to what works with other people and dont realize that istps will sometimes do the exact opposite of what is expected. Even when it works against them. Enfps may be conditioned to use more than is needed for istps. They need lots of understanding and gentle care. All those descriptions about them being 'hard as nails' do not apply in an emotional sense.

[indigoroom]

yeah good post. i know some ISTp/ENFp couples and they are getting along good. the interesting thing is that they dont want details about their relation to be exposed. like they know people will judge them for being strange etc. i think i pasted a whole article about that here some time ago.

[FDG]

yeah good post. i know some ISTp/ENFp couples and they are getting along good. the interesting thing is that they dont want details about their relation to be exposed. like they know people will judge them for being strange etc. i think i pasted a whole article about that here some time ago.

i have met people who do this.

i want to read the article now.

I do this too with my ISFJ.

I cannot say that we have sex every night, shit.

[FDG]

Kim,


All that I can say, is that for a thinking type is really difficult to handle the bad expression of Fi - the flighty and bitchy episodes, as you mention.

We just cannot really understand how a person can change the way she feels towards another so easily.

This is especially true if the T doesn't know socionics.