Te in terms of "business success"

[UDP]

So Te is "business logic"


So if your job is, so to say, being a professional student at college, how does Te, or being Te dominant, play into that?

Or, why would a Te dominant want to be successful at school?


I can see an ENTj wanting to be that way because it would increase future profits, money, more opportunities down the road. But that's more Te with Ni

As for an ESTj, would the focus be on just "doing a good, quality job"?


I also want to understand more these, from wikisocion:

He is inclined to be proactive in increasing the efficiency and reasonableness of the external world, and his sense of self-worth is connected to being involved and productive in activities seen as useful, profitable, or that increase one's knowledge base. To give out information that he knows not to be factually accurate is disturbing and avoided as much as possible. Thus the individual has a need to accumulate factual information, also from external sources such as books, second-hand information, etc, on matters of personal interest or of professional activity.

[UDP]

"and his sense of self-worth is connected to being involved and productive in activities seen as useful, profitable, or that increase one's knowledge base"That seems very relevant.

[force my hand]

I think a Te dominant would get a kick out of (relatively) dynamic projects: idea -> proposal -> research -> presentation. They probably excel when given 'problems' to pursue that are founded on knowlege already learned, but allow them to expand their view of the subject either by building on a pre-existing framework, or filling in gaps.

"What's the question?" -> "What are the facts?", and determining how relevent one is to the other.

[Creepy-bg]

money is the devils work

[Logos]

money is the devils work

As they saying goes, the Bible speaks more about money than heaven and hell combined.

[Creepy-bg]

As they saying goes, the Bible speaks more about money than heaven and hell combined.

Jesus owes me $50

have you seen him around?

[munenori2]

Te?

[UDP]

I didn't post this thread in "anything goes", but I guess it really doesn't make a difference anymore, does it.


Awwwwwwww

[Jonathan]

So Te is "business logic"


So if your job is, so to say, being a professional student at college, how does Te, or being Te dominant, play into that?

Or, why would a Te dominant want to be successful at school?


I can see an ENTj wanting to be that way because it would increase future profits, money, more opportunities down the road. But that's more Te with Ni

As for an ESTj, would the focus be on just "doing a good, quality job"?

First of all, it's translated as "business logic" but I don't think that means necessarily business as in commerce or being a businessperson, or being interested in accounting and other "business" subjects. Maybe someone who speaks Russian can help, but I thought it's "business" in a more abstract sense, as in "the business of how this happens" or "the business of how to make this work."

If, however, they mean "commerce," as they may, I think that's a prime example of a weakness in Socionic writings, which is to confuse the IM Elements with specific applications.

Another common misunderstanding I see on this forum, often, and increasing, is the idea that the IM elements are somehow, by definition, simply the desire to be a certain way...i.e., Te = the desire to be successful, Si = the desire to be healthy, Fe = the desire to be liked, Ne = the desire to be unique, etc.

You see, you can create a Socionics based on that...in fact, well, that is one of the many Socionics theories. But I don't think it's the central one. The central one is that the IM Elements have to do with certain ways of using your mind. But then again everybody has a different opinion....

[UDP]

Well, now that she explained why she sees me as LII-Ne, I see no reason in arguing with her.

[tcaudilllg]

The substance of Te is Fi, so it depends on your approach to "business".

An ENTj is concerned more with having partners down the road. It's not about this opportunity or that one, but keeping a long term ethical -Fi relationship upon which one can count on others in times of need or crisis.

ESTj is more "of the moment": it needs +Fi to know what people want here and now. You see the great enterprising successes of the world (Donald Trump an example, no less) are where you've got ESTjs recognizing a common motive that people seem to be sharing at the moment, and moving to exploit it. Thus they all of a sudden end up with these huge profits for say, a year or two... and then passions change and if they aren't organizationally nimble enough, they end up falling behind.

compare Trump to Bill Gates: Donald has successes and failures depending on how in tune he is with the moment; Gates has a long-term business model that basically holds companies in a hostage relationship for the long haul.... Perhaps not the most ethical means of being a business trader, but ethics goes two ways....

Just understand that Gates is always looking to making you come back to visit tomorrow, while Trump is looking to sell you something right now. Another thing, ENTjs are far more likely to invite you to come by and browse, and let you wander out of the store if you're not interested. (because it's the ethic that's important.) An ESTj is more likely to press you for awareness of your motives and use that to sell you anything you are wanting that he has. It's need vs. want, basically.

Rick recently wrote solid articles on each of these types on his blog.

[FDG]

I think there are two reasons why Te types may have an easy time in college:

- EJ temperament gives the necessary drive to study and consider sufficiently long study sessions as being effortless. Of course this condition holds unless the person is focussed on different areas - work, sports - that do not leave him enough time to pursue his studies.
- Te dominance gives a natural flair towards acquiring large amounts of information and data, which obvious gives an edge in subjects that are geared towards this approach.

When Te does not aid in college:

- When the unspoken requirements of the course are to match the subjective impression of the teacher on the studied matter. Generally a Te dominant will not bend, which negatively affects his grade.
- When EJ temperament makes the EJ-Te take up too many projects leaving not enough time for study.

I can see an ENTj wanting to be that way because it would increase future profits, money, more opportunities down the road. But that's more Te with Ni

That is indeed the worst way to approach college, because classes become a chore rather than an opportunity to discover and learn something new.

[Gilly]

I think there are two reasons why Te types may have an easy time in college:

- EJ temperament gives the necessary drive to study and consider sufficiently long study sessions as being effortless.

rofl Se and you not ever studying with EIEs.

Of course this condition holds unless the person is focussed on different areas - work, sports - that do not leave him enough time to pursue his studies.

rofl more Se and valuing Fe

When Te does not aid in college:

- When the unspoken requirements of the course are to match the subjective impression of the teacher on the studied matter. Generally a Te dominant will not bend, which negatively affects his grade.

rofl Ti with Se

- When EJ temperament makes the EJ-Te take up too many projects leaving not enough time for study.

rofl even more Se

lol @ you being Beta ST even by this post.

And I don't care what you say Goodbye to this thread.

[FDG]

rofl Se and you not ever studying with EIEs.



rofl more Se and valuing Fe



rofl Ti with Se



rofl even more Se

lol @ you being Beta ST even by this post.

And I don't care what you say Goodbye to this thread.

It can be indeed interpreted in the way you say, but it could equally well be interpreted in the way I say.

The only part that I cannot understand is how sports are related to Fe (especially my choice of sports).

But for example:

rofl Se and you not ever studying with EIEs.

Here, I was speaking specifically about EJ-Te's, not EIEs. I think there are some misunderstandings...

[FDG]

i think temperaments can be veeeery tricky sometimes.

What do you suggest to do about it?

[tcaudilllg]

sounded good, dude, though i'm 99% sure Trump is ESTp.

Prove it.

[FDG]

i don't anything really, i was just saying, you know?

Okay, but where do you think they are very tricky? In which sense? Why?

[FDG]

eh, they can be fuzzy, i.e. see fuzzy logic

Ahhhh, okay, then I disagree. I think clubs NT NF SF ST are fuzzy, but temperaments are clearly defined.

[FDG]

i think clubs are also a bit fuzzy.

=D I think one of the two has to be placed as at least artificially fixed in order to determine one's type.

[FDG]

i see lots of potential in fuzzy type testing.

Yeah, true it's better. I think that the best way would be to do a cross-test with:

- first fuzzy club and fixed temperament (i.e. numeric values for clubs, and binary for temperament)
- then vice versa

and see if the two match, and try to fine-tune the test

Okay, let me try the test, even if I am not really a fan of those excel sheets...

[XoX]

About Te and business. Gamma Te is good at knowing when/how to buy cheap and when/how to sell expensive. Delta Te is good at constructing usable stuff from cheap materials that you can then sell expensive.

[FDG]

i can't really see how fuzzy cannot be done just straight...

http://www.box.net/shared/static/csu0en6cc4.xls

I like this test, anyway, I got:

ENTP -2
ENTJ 8
INTP 3
INTJ 3
ESFP -2
ESFJ -4
ISFP -7
ISFJ 1
ESTP -3
ESTJ 5
ISTP 4
ISTJ -2
ENFP -1
ENFJ -1
INFP -8
INFJ 6

I think that the result diana got is due to the definition of Se you give above which is probably too centered on the ESFp version of Se (accepting+coupled with Fi)

[FDG]

what do you think i should add/remove for a more neutral one, if you'd like?

My suggestions (maybe you can insert one of my suggestions among your list; then if somebody else comes along with another suggestion, you insert theirs, etc):

perseverance, concentration can be two adjectives that are good for creative Se

[FDG]

i think perseverance is more of a J thing, or reinin obstinate, or something else

This is one of the reasons why I said that we need to differentiate between temperaments before testing for the functions you do agree that creative Se appears in a different form than accepting Se? And that perseverance is generally not a charateristic of all J types, right?

and concentration, i think concentration can be different. if you mean focusing on what you're doing NOW, then i think it might have an Si component.

There is probably an interplay of both components, but anyway my focus was more on perseverance rather than on concentration.

In any case, do you think that a two-stage test with temperament first, and then slightly different functional descriptions based on which result we get for temperament is something feasible?

[tcaudilllg]

he just is, ok?

Not good enough. You've called me into question before the entire forum. You have an obligation to prove me wrong, now.

[tcaudilllg]

I'll leave this to Expat to skewer....

I don't know where you're getting all this from, but functions ARE NOT TRAITS. THEY ARE PREFERENCES.

I've said it once, I'll say it again: READ AUGUSTA. And read many, many other descriptions on this site.

[Logos]

I'll leave this to Expat to skewer....

I don't know where you're getting all this from, but functions ARE NOT TRAITS. THEY ARE PREFERENCES.

I've said it once, I'll say it again: READ AUGUSTA. And read many, many other descriptions on this site.

Hitta perhaps, who proclaims that functions necessarily involve traits.

[tcaudilllg]

Hitta perhaps, who proclaims that functions necessarily involve traits.

They do involve traits -- that I can tell, personality traits consist of various dynamics between functions -- but they are not in themselves traits.

I'll bet the problem is trying to make limited -Ti input match all of the observed +Te data. I used to have the same problem, until I accepted that you've got to expand the -Ti until you've matched the data at hand. If your theory does not conform directly to the data, do not try to make the data fit the theory; rather, make the theory fit the data by expanding its scope.

This is a problem people who are not logically transcendent simply cannot grasp, it seems.

[ScarlettLux]

AHH HOW DO I IGNORE PEOPLE!? I'm being driven crazy by some posters lately, it's affected my enjoyment of this whole forum.. blah.

[BLauritson]

Click on their name and choose "View Public Profile". When you're there, there's a link that says "Add <name> to Your Ignore List". Just click that, then the screen afterwards will have a textbox with that person's username in there. You'll need to click the Save List button, since otherwise it doesn't add that person.

[Ezra]

As for an ESTj, would the focus be on just "doing a good, quality job"?

I think so, yes. You were spot on with Te and Ni ego block; it's the simplest way of putting it.

In the case of Te blocked with Si, because of their shitty Ni capabilities, they have little concept of how things will affect them in the future; they're inept when it comes to consequences and the effects of their present actions on the future. However, the reason their asses are saved is because they do such a quality job in the moment. A lazy slacker with little notion of cause and affect would end up being a bum, but a highly motivated, hardworking individual with the same disconcern for cause and effect would likely end up in a good position in life purely by default. So, unlike the LIE, they don't really aim for anything, they just get on very well with life. Personally, I always have an end in mind; a goal; something achieveable, and I view Ni as something I'd prefer to be adept in rather than Si. I see more use in Ni than I do in Si. An LSE would naturally not give a shit about the future; the here and now is all that matters.

[UDP]

Based on how you describe it there you'd have to be foolish not to.

[munenori2]

There is something about a job well done that just aaaaaaahhhhh feels good inside. That sensation is pleasing in and of itself, driving one onward. Try too hard to direct it and propel it towards something and you begin to lose sight of the act itself. That's the pro of TeSi, I think.

[FDG]

There is something about a job well done that just aaaaaaahhhhh feels good inside. That sensation is pleasing in and of itself, driving one onward. Try too hard to direct it and propel it towards something and you begin to lose sight of the act itself.

I agree with this completely.