Well not exactly. Both Betas and Deltas are "aristocratic," which is supposed to mean something. I'm not saying that I see any case for Hitchcock having qualities associated with the words "aristocratic" as opposed to "democratic," but just that the fact that "opposing" quadras are opposed in some ways doesn't mean that they don't have similarities based on club. Anyhow, we were comparing whether he was Alpha or Delta, so the possibility that he could be Beta didn't even enter into it.
Could be. Is solving things step by step, figuring out how best to come at answers, seeking the heart of the matter in a mystery by using logic an indication primarily of Si? If so, that would explain my confusion.I think you are mixing Si with Te.
Wes Anderson makes amazingly good movies
But it must, if you go via the NF route -- I don't think he was Beta; I just think that your "psychology" argument for Delta, the way it was put, is not very persuasive.
Again, I don't see what he did in that way at all. I don't think he "sought the heart of the mystery by using logic"; his approach to movies, in my opinion, and according to what he said, not only in those clips, was to see them as a scary amusement park ride -- what matters is the emotions in a moment-by-moment basis (and that is indeed Si), not so much the plot. Now, of course a movie must have a script, and they will have the "mystery", but that aspect of filmmaking did not seem to interest Hitchcock at all; in fact, I think he always discussed his movies from the point of view of how to construct particular scenes, not really from the point of view of the plot.
Again, why do you think that "figuring out how best to come at answers, seeking the heart of the matter in a mystery by using logic" particularly interested him? He did not seem ever to discuss his movies from that point of view - rather, again, on how to construct individual scenes. And that is related to Si.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
Well, maybe I didn't articulate as well as I could have, but I think the argument is valid that this interest in the "inner psychology" of people is more associated with Delta and Alpha. But I'm not going to belabor the point because I'm not that passionately convinced of his type....I just see some evidence for SLI, that's all.
It's his characters who are like that. And in my opinion, he does the mystery thing better than most people. His characters ask reasonable questions, and the plots make sense much more than those of lesser directors.Again, I don't see what he did in that way at all. I don't think he "sought the heart of the mystery by using logic"; his approach to movies, in my opinion, and according to what he said, not only in those clips, was to see them as a scary amusement park ride -- what matters is the emotions in a moment-by-moment basis (and that is indeed Si), not so much the plot. Now, of course a movie must have a script, and they will have the "mystery", but that aspect of filmmaking did not seem to interest Hitchcock at all; in fact, I think he always discussed his movies from the point of view of how to construct particular scenes, not really from the point of view of the plot.
Again, why do you think that "figuring out how best to come at answers, seeking the heart of the matter in a mystery by using logic" particularly interested him? He did not seem ever to discuss his movies from that point of view - rather, again, on how to construct individual scenes. And that is related to Si.
In any event, I've never perceived his movies to be weak on plot. There are films where the plot is a just a device to have special effects, humor, and so forth. The Rambo films are a good example of movies where the plot doesn't matter much. On the high-art end, the film by Fellini I referred to before (8 1/2) is a good example of a film which purposely has minimal plot.
But Hitchcock films tend to have great stories. And I don't think that his comments implied he doesn't think plot is important. What he doesn't think is important is details that aren't related to the psychological or artistic dimension. As he said, if people are looking for the plans to the fort, who cares what the plans to the fort say? It's the fact that they're looking for them, or fighting over them. Good storytelling is more about overall paradigms than getting into details that have nothing to the drama, the pacing, keeping the audience's attention.
Of course none of that argues against SEI. SEIs are supposed to be good storytellers, aren't they? It's just that Si-based storytelling is different from Ni-based storytelling.
That's the essence of our disagreement. I don't think it's accurate to think of "his" characters at all. He did not write the vast majority of his scripts, and I haven't seen evidence that he cared about character development much. Rather than "his characters", I think it's much more accurate to think of "his scenes". He seemed much more interested - not only in those clips - to discuss how to construct a scene, rather than how to develop a character. Of course, his films are "concrete" in terms of plot rather than "vague" or "abstract" like Fellini's or, say, Godard's, but I think it's just wrong to attribute to Hitchcock's type traits observed in the characters of his movies.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
A few guesses..alot of these are probably pretty off.
Quentin Tarantino - ENTj
Rainer Werner Fassbinder - ENFj....he seems to enjoy portraying 'tortured' characters.
Jean-Luc Godard - INFp
Agnes Varda - I'm guessing Gamma or Beta Introvert, Ethical. I've only seen Le Bonheur, La Pointe Courte, and bits of Vagabond.
Francois Truffaut - ENFp or beta NF..I get mixed vibes from his films.
Luis Bunuel - ENTp
Eric Rohmer - Maybe an introverted Gamma or Delta type
Robert Bresson - ISFj (?)
Stanley Kubrick - INTp
John Cassavetes - ENTp or ENTj
Orson Welles - ENTj
Martin Scorsese - Beta NF
David Fincher - ISTj (?)
Akira Kurosawa - INFj (?)
Sergio Leone - INTp (?)
Andrei Tarkovsky - Beta NF
Ingmar Bergman - INFp
Wes Anderson - ISFp
Sofia Coppola - ISFp (?)
Victor Erice - INFj (?)
Theo Angelopoulos - Maybe INFp? While I've only seen Ulysses' Gaze so far, his style reminds me alot of Andrei Tarkovsky's.
Yasujiro Ozu - INFj (?)
Last edited by suedehead; 02-19-2014 at 03:00 PM.
Alphaville is like a huge argument against technocracy. It touches upon topics that I´d consider "more Gamma". Emotions and subjective perceptions are outlawed and everything "human" is replaced with an artificial vocabulary that mechanicizes people. The motto of the place : "People should not ask why, but only say because". People considered to be acting illogically are executed and excluded. Attachment 3115 I actually haven´t watched other movies by him yet, but even by his pics I´d say he looks kind of Fi.
I see your point. But when it comes to polarized thinking (us-them), it may be ambiguous. This is from the Sacred Wiki : Division of people into "mine" and "not mine" is frequently attributed to aristocracy. In actuality, this division holds true for any types that values white ethics (Fi), including the democratic types (SEE, and in particular ESI). If we expand this concept, then "my" is any person with whom close relations have been formed, there is a familiar connection or sincere attachment. For the IEE an EII sincere attachment and belonging to a group become combined: "mine" and "not mine" for them are members of "their group" or "foreign group". --- Also .... since the differences between the socionics Aristocratic/Democratic trait and properties of the enneagram social instinct have never been clearly explained, it is inadvisable to rely on this dichotomy in typing.
Here goes something:
Alpha
Federico Fellini- ENTp
Richard Linklater- ISFp?
Beta
David Lynch- INFp
Darren Aronofsky- INFp
Calvin Reeder-INFp
Martin Scorcese- Beta NF, I'd be inclined to lean towards ENFj
Alfred Hitchcock- ESTp
Dziga Vertov- ISTj
Gamma
Paul Schrader-INTp
Delta
Oliver Stone-ENFp
Akira Kurosawa- INFj (I saw Rashomon again after being away from it for awhile; it's so saccharine in parts )
Miranda July- INFj
Abbas Kiarostami-INFj
Jacques Godbout
Ozu
If anybody has opinions on the types of Cronenberg, Wong Kar-Wai, or Park Chan Wook, I'm especially curious about hearing them.
Last edited by Whoobie77; 06-16-2014 at 07:19 PM.
Nicholas Winding Refn - INTp
Lars Von Trier - INTp
Paul Thomas Anderson - LSI so/sx
Martin Scorsese - SLI-Si sp/so
Quentin Tarantino - ILE sx/so
Werner Herzog - LII-Ti sp/so 9w8
Andrei Tarkovsky - LSI
Woody Allen - LII sp/so
Jean-Luc Godard - ESI-Se so/sp
David Lynch - IEI so/sp 9w1
Darren Aronofsky - IEI-Ni
David Mamet - SLE-Se so/sp
Mel Gibson - LSE-Te e6
Steven Spielberg - ILE
Ingmar Bergman - Si/Ne introvert (not IEI)
Lars von Trier - Alpha irrational (SEI)?
Akira Kurosawa - delta?
Alfred Hitchcock - ?
Stanley Kubrick - ? (so/sp)
Roman Polanski - ?
Last edited by silke; 06-25-2014 at 04:31 AM.
Agnes Varda - IEI-Ni
Chris Marker - LSI-Ti
Jean-Luc Godard - ESI-Se
Abbas Kiarostami - EII
Christopher Nolan- Gamma NT (possibly INTp)- Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet.
I think Paul Thomas Anderson is either Beta or Gamma. (ESI or LSI)
Last edited by Contra; 06-07-2014 at 02:59 AM.
I feel like Refn is XEI considering he focuses on aesthetic so much. He gets inspired from songs. He tried making Drive sort of the visual derivative of a Kraftwerk song. I lean IEI for him because he focuses on powerful characters so much. Refn mentioned how the main character in Drive is a 'Hero' in a certain sense. It reminds me of my IEI friend who sort of had this focus on the heroic (maybe that's an Ti/Fe valuing thing).. Just my opinion though. he could very well still be an ILI. He does seem to focus on Ni/Se (or at least Se).
Stephen Spielberg is ENTp-Ti.
Maybe ISTj for Chrisopher Nolan?
i can't remember if i've posted in this thread before
Lars Von Trier Ti-INTj Alpha Woody Allen Ne-INTj Alpha Zack Snyder Ne-INTj Alpha Charlie Kaufman Ti-ENTp Alpha Guillermo Del Toro Ne-ENTp Alpha Spike Jonze ISFp (?) Alpha Wes Anderson ISFp (?) Alpha Seth MacFarlane Fe-ESFj Alpha Steven Spielberg Extrovert Alpha Judd Apatow ? Alpha Darren Aronofsky Ni-INFp Beta Sam Mendes Ni-INFp Beta David Lynch Fe-INFp Beta Tim Burton Fe-INFp Beta Martin Scorsese Ni-ENFj Beta Christopher Nolan Ni-ENFj Beta David Fincher Se-ESTp Beta Alfonso Cuaron Se-ISTj Beta John Hughes ? Beta
ummm. i can't think of any delta/gamma film-makers. weird.
..Eric Rohmer, Kurosawa, Theo Angelopoulos, Abbas Kiarostami, Yasujiro Ozu. All EII's strangely enough. Gamma should have a couple ESI's and NT's too, off the top of my head.
Wong Kar Wai - INFp
Last edited by Moonbeaux Rainfox; 07-12-2015 at 09:48 AM.
Roy Andersson (Swedish filmmaker/director): IEE? (ENFp)
Apichatpong Weerasethakul (Thai filmmaker/director): IEE? (ENFp)
Steven Soderbergh (American director): LIE (ENTj) or LSE?
Lars von Trier: Beta NF (IEI or EIE)
David Lynch: Beta NF (IEI or EIE?)
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/01/...r-for-decades/
"Fascism is the system of government that cartelizes the private sector, centrally plans the economy to subsidize producers, exalts the police state as the source of order, denies fundamental rights and liberties to individuals, and makes the executive state the unlimited master of society.
This describes mainstream politics in America today. And not just in America. It’s true in Europe, too. It is so much part of the mainstream that it is hardly noticed anymore.
If fascism is invisible to us, it is truly the silent killer. It fastens a huge, violent, lumbering state on the free market that drains its capital and productivity like a deadly parasite on a host. This is why the fascist state has been called the vampire economy. It sucks the economic life out of a nation and brings about a slow death of a once thriving economy."
Martin Scorsese - IEI-Ni
Steven Spielberg - EII-Ne
Quentin Tarantino - IEE-Fi
Alfred Hitchcock - ILI-Ni
Stanley Kubrick - ILI-Ni
Francis Ford Coppola - ILE-Ne
Ridley Scott - LIE-Ni
Woody Allen - LII-Ne
James Cameron - LIE-Ni
Clint Eastwood - SLI-Si
David Lynch - LII-Ne
Christopher Nolan - ILI-Ni
Paul Thomas Anderson - ILE-Ti
Akira Kurosawa - ILI-Te
Peter Jackson - ILE-Ti
Tim Burton - ILE-Ne
Wes Anderson - SEI-Si
Charlie Chaplin - EII-Ne
George Lucas - LII-Ne
Sofia Coppola - SEI-Si
Terry Gilliam - ILE-Ne
Richard Linklater - IEE-Ne
Sergio Leone - ILI-Ni
Werner Herzog - IEI-Ni
I'm having some doubts about Ingmar Bergman as Fe creative. His characters seem to suffer a feelings 'death' so to speak, frequently characters cast as actors who can no longer find the real selves who either retire or have a breakdown and retreat to a world far from acting to be in touch with the true self: the true feeling , etc. One retires after acting and simply stops communicating to others in words; another retires by marrying a clergyman, hoping to reach a certain level of the self and to feel her 'real' feelings, the truth. It seems maybe like a Fi types view on these matters (?) Open for debate but that's the impression i gather so far.
IEI Creative subtype
Roman Polanski
Lars von Trier
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
I agree with LIE. No EIE would be caught dead dressed like this in public: https://www.google.com/search?q=quen...w=1111&bih=980
That seems perfectly consistent with IEI, Fi demonstrative. I haven't researched him but that's my impression based on his movies.
Lynch: IEI
Tarantino: LIE (this is still a tentative typing, EIE and SEE are plausible)
Scorsese: probably Gamma extrovert
Linklater: ILE
Von Trier: IEI
Fincher: IEI?
Lucas: SEI
Tarkovsky: probably IEI
Kurosawa: probably LSI
Herzog: IEI?
Wes Anderson: maaybe SEI
Shane Carruth: LII
Soderbergh might be SLI, have to do more research.
Spielberg - ILI-Te
Tim Burton - IEI
Gaspar Noé - EIE
Lars Von Trier - Gamma
Aki Kaurismäki ILI
@Troll Nr 007
EDIT: One just have to love Fe polr. Cracking jokes with a totally straight face
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)