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Thread: SEI-IEE Semi-Duality Relations (ISFp and ENFp)

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Default SEI-IEE Semi-Duality Relations (ISFp and ENFp)

    Jezus is he cruel sausage
    Last edited by consentingadult; 08-01-2015 at 09:31 AM.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Interesting.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The reason why the relationship falls short for an IEE in comparison to duality with an SLI), is that the SEI will on occasion try to influence the emotional state of the IEE by means of Fe (sometimes even for selfish purposes, not necessarily to improve the IEE's mood). Since the IEE creative function is Fi, they are in pretty strong control of their emotional states themselves and experience this SEI-Fe as intrusive. This causes fatigue in the IEE and a need to remove themselves from the SEI.

    On the other hand, the SEI might also suffer from fatigue, because at times the IEE wants to project their emotional state on the SEI (make the SEI feel the same things they feel themselves, or try to make the SEI feel something the IEE thinks they need to be feeling, e.g. in order to overcome an emotional obstacle). However, the SEI is perfectly capable of taking care of that themselves if they feel the need (demonstrative) and experience IEE-behavior this as an intrusion, possible even as an incorrect evaluation of the IEE that the SEI is not emotionally competent.

    Any thoughts anyone?
    I think that's essentially correct. I work very well with SEIs, particularly the Si subtype, who are little 'dryer' in flavour, however I find the SEI too concerned with my emotional states and that concern would exasperate me.

    An example: I had to work on a 'project' with an SEI-Fe. Whilst things were going well, the relationship was fantastic. We laughed and joked around a lot and said some very random things. However, once we were under stress, I just wanted to get away from him - whenever I was stressed, he would attempt to 'cheer me up' by giving me emotional reassurances, trying to subtly influence my mood by focusing on my emotional state. This irritated me to no end - fixating on my emotions weren't solving the problem because I could control my own emotional states and I was producing this stress because I couldn't deal with something that needed to be done (rather than being unable to do something because I couldn't control my emotional state). I needed Te instruction, rather than Fe comfort.

    As for how I affect the SEI...I'm less certain, though I'm certain that I'm also not giving him what he needs when stressed and thus frustrating him as well. He gets the short of the stick often though, since we work in a group of four and the other two are LSE-Si and SLI-Si.
    ()
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    Jezus is he cruel sausage
    Last edited by consentingadult; 08-01-2015 at 09:31 AM. Reason: typos
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    That other thing is fantastic, isn't it?
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    Jezus is he cruel sausage
    Last edited by consentingadult; 08-01-2015 at 09:31 AM.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Any thoughts anyone?
    You haven't a clue what you're really talking about?

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    This irritated me to no end - fixating on my emotions weren't solving the problem because I could control my own emotional states and I was producing this stress because I couldn't deal with something that needed to be done (rather than being unable to do something because I couldn't control my emotional state). I needed Te instruction, rather than Fe comfort.
    Okay next time you're in a bad mood, I'll just "Meow", call you a shrew-y bitch, tell ya to take a midol.... flip you off and tell you to 'sit and spin' say I don't care and then fart really loudly. That's not very comforting, but it's still Fe... man stop trying to wussify our manly and powerful function. I was with you up until the point you started over-generalizing...

    You all are fucked. I need a break.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Okay next time you're in a bad mood, I'll just "Meow", call you a shrew-y bitch, tell ya to take a midol.... flip you off and tell you to 'sit and spin' say I don't care and then fart really loudly. That's not very comforting, but it's still Fe... man stop trying to wussify our manly and powerful function. I was with you up until the point you started over-generalizing...

    You all are fucked. I need a break.
    I'm sorry if my post upset you BulletsAndDoves - but in my defense, although I'm sure it didn't come off in this way, I wasn't attempting demonise his Fe nor assert the superiority of Te or Fi. I KNOW my reaction was shitty and he was trying to the best of his extent to be comforting and knowing that meant I APPRECIATED what he was attempting to do - it simple was of no assistance to me. I benefitted much more from the other two in the room who simply divided up the tasks at hand (at 3am in the morning), assigned themselves and me a portion of work to be done and proceeded to do it.

    The thing about Fi (or me, at least) is that when I'm in a shitty mood, part of the shittiness is at myself for being in demonstrably shitty mood. I'm not comfortable with externalising emotions, particular if their genuine and even more so if they're negative. Breaking down what's stressing me into tasks that I can ACT upon gives me something else to focus on. Focusing on my emotional state agitates me because it's like focusing a laser on a wound. That does NOT mean however that I don't think the Fe person was acting in the best will or that I, outside of my immediate experiences, didn't appreciate it.
    ()
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    Actually, on second reading, I think I misunderstood you B&D?: 'our manly and powerful function'? I was also not attempting to paint the SEI as being unmanly or less powerful or useless in any sense. He's a very masculine guy - I'd never suggest he was all touchy-feely with me or anything. That was not what I meant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    lol. why do I have to be fucking pissed off everytime I post something that's halfway reasonable. Fuck.
    Hey dolphin.

    It's Theo. Remember me? Yeah. I remember you.

    Anyways, I like your posts. Just thought I'd share that.
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    Default question for ISFps...(or anyone who'd know)

    So I'm dating an ISFp (and the semi-dual this is great). However, he's not very comfortable opening up verbally at all. That's created some problems of me jumping to conclusions that his lack of verbally saying things/contacting me, means he doesn't care.

    He has told me he cares, and I believe he does. But I think he has an extra hard time expressing himself (even compared to other ISFps I've known who seem more extroverted).

    As we all know, ENFps can be sort of attention whores at times, or at least need some verbal reassurance/the occasional compliment. Do you ISFps, or other alphas, have ideas on how I could get him to feel more comfortable sharing feelings? At times he does, but it is kind of rare. Like, he's complimented me two or three times in about 3 months. I can tell he's trying, and has started calling more after I said that was important to me, but he hates the phone.

    Any suggestions on how I could help him feel more comfortable, or something I could do that would make him feel he could open up? He has opened up to me sometimes, but it's kind of rare.

    Thanks for your input!
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    I'd just take your time with it and not prod too hard. It takes people a while to really open up sometimes. Part of that is trust issues with others (not saying he doesn't trust you, but intimacy is a hard thing), part of it is not really knowing how to express what you're feeling in words, any of a million things that are type or non type related. If you like him and he tries to do things to show he cares, then I wouldn't drive yourself crazy about it and just go with it for a while.

    There's an extent to where if you show emotional chinks or vulnerability that an ISFp might want to make it better and maybe open up themselves, but I'm not sure if I'd give that as 'advice' to try. Like I've opened up about things to my IEE friend that I probably would not talk about to anyone but maybe two other people in my life. It's just that he expects sharing that to be a sign of a stronger bond so I think it confuses him when we talk later and I want to leave the deep stuff behind and have to readjust to that level of talking about stuff. I mean, I'm glad I shared, but it's sort of a get it out there then forget about it and move on.
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    I think that asking an SEI to share his feelings is pretty offputting for starters. They either show or they don't. If they don't, he probably doesn't want them to show. Or he has issues he needs to sort out. Personally, if I have to resort to verbally elaborating on my feelings (on more than a rare occasion), then I think "FAIL!" . Either on my part or the person's. Expressing myself without having to lay things out in black and white is what I'm about! Also, + 100 to what Mune said.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    What Rubicon said.

    I don't think ISFp's are that big on talking about their feelings.

    I think that sort of thing is moving into Fi territory.

    I suppose keeping things light means he will open up in a more Fe way, but he probably won't see it as bond forming in the way us Fi types do. Come to think of it, what Mune said is good too!

    Hope it works out for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    So I'm dating an ISFp (and the semi-dual this is great). However, he's not very comfortable opening up verbally at all. That's created some problems of me jumping to conclusions that his lack of verbally saying things/contacting me, means he doesn't care.

    He has told me he cares, and I believe he does. But I think he has an extra hard time expressing himself (even compared to other ISFps I've known who seem more extroverted).

    As we all know, ENFps can be sort of attention whores at times, or at least need some verbal reassurance/the occasional compliment. Do you ISFps, or other alphas, have ideas on how I could get him to feel more comfortable sharing feelings? At times he does, but it is kind of rare. Like, he's complimented me two or three times in about 3 months. I can tell he's trying, and has started calling more after I said that was important to me, but he hates the phone.

    Any suggestions on how I could help him feel more comfortable, or something I could do that would make him feel he could open up? He has opened up to me sometimes, but it's kind of rare.

    Thanks for your input!
    You know I think this is not ISFp problem. But SEMI-DUALITY problem! Being ESFp myself I dated several INFps and I could tell exactly the same as you wrote about them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    So I'm dating an ISFp (and the semi-dual this is great). However, he's not very comfortable opening up verbally at all. That's created some problems of me jumping to conclusions that his lack of verbally saying things/contacting me, means he doesn't care.

    He has told me he cares, and I believe he does. But I think he has an extra hard time expressing himself (even compared to other ISFps I've known who seem more extroverted).

    As we all know, ENFps can be sort of attention whores at times, or at least need some verbal reassurance/the occasional compliment. Do you ISFps, or other alphas, have ideas on how I could get him to feel more comfortable sharing feelings? At times he does, but it is kind of rare. Like, he's complimented me two or three times in about 3 months. I can tell he's trying, and has started calling more after I said that was important to me, but he hates the phone.

    Any suggestions on how I could help him feel more comfortable, or something I could do that would make him feel he could open up? He has opened up to me sometimes, but it's kind of rare.

    Thanks for your input!
    Not an ISFP thing. These guys are great and i never have trouble getting them to open up or show some sort of reaction. Trouble is ENFP are too smooth & socially skilled ....there's no seat of the pants "danger" element in their dealing with others ... doesn't allow the ISFP natural opportunity to react with or otherwise to feel useful in their area of creativity .... i think they prefer the "throw caution to the wind" attitude of the ENTP .... gives them something interesting to work with.
    ILE

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    Rocket, that's a negative.

    ILEs scare me, and not in a good way, when they go on a Fi-PoLR rampage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    Rocket, that's a negative.

    ILEs scare me, and not in a good way, when they go on a Fi-PoLR rampage.
    Yeah the PoLR thing sucks ... no doubt about that.

    But getting back to the main question. Everyone likes to shine at something and be appreciated..... in the ENFP-ISFP thing it seems to me that -creative could at some level be jockeying for limelight with - creative.... this could be part of the issue.
    ILE

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    Don't listen to Gulanzon, Rocket.

    Seriously though, don't.

    Fi polr
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Don't listen to Gulanzon, Rocket.

    Seriously though, don't.

    Fi polr
    Hmmm ... just dying to let loose on someone .... didn't want it to be on an SEI up front thats all ....
    ILE

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    One thing I've noticed in my dealings with ISFps is that they tend to have a really quiet way of showing affection and caring. Not quiet as in hush hush, but quiet as in easily unnoticed. There's a cumulative aspect where they want to make their feelings an entire experience rather than expressed in isolated bubbles. Sometimes if you're not paying attention you think it's just normal behaviour, but for them they're expressing caring and affection. Additionally, trying to turn the nature of those feelings into something super serious or something that they need to specifically think about doing makes them feel forced. I think I can speak for most alphas when I say we want our relationships to feel organic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    I think that asking an SEI to share his feelings is pretty offputting for starters. They either show or they don't. If they don't, he probably doesn't want them to show. Or he has issues he needs to sort out. Personally, if I have to resort to verbally elaborating on my feelings (on more than a rare occasion), then I think "FAIL!" . Either on my part or the person's. Expressing myself without having to lay things out in black and white is what I'm about! Also, + 100 to what Mune said.
    Scariest shit EVER. Ugh, thinking about someone doing that with me or having to do it myself makes my gut turn. I can't even watch it in movies, I have to look away because it makes me so damn uncomfortable.
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    I've been with an ISFp for at least 5 years now. (He's better at remembering dates than I am.)

    In the beginning of the relationship, there was no "opening up" nor "talking about our feelings". We just enjoyed each other's company, and took things as they were. Admittedly, I was more of the 'pursuer'. This means that I was the one who invited him over or asked him to go places with me.

    He hates the phone..big time. But within days of having first met, we chatted on the computer alot. Finally I told him that if he didn't call me, then I wouldn't invite him to my birthday party (which would have been our first date). He called me right at that very moment. To me, that was a huge signal that he was interested. To do something he doesn't like so that he could spend time with me.

    He doesn't like trying to guess what I want or what I like. He prefers it if I tell him straight up. This has been difficult for me to do, especially since my 'wants' and 'likes' constantly change or depend upon the situation at hand. And I also try to find a medium ground...what's the least that I need from him, and what's the easiest for him to give, and where is the middle ground on those two?

    His actions definitely speak louder than words. However, without some kind of 'direction', then he doesn't know which actions to take. The less decision making he had to do regarding the relationship, the better it was for him. This may not be an ISFp thing, however, as there is an other aspect to our relationship that isn't socionics related. However, it does seem to fit many introverted Fe types that I know.


    In a way, I had to approach our relationship as if I was 'training' him. I had to make sure that I sent out Fe signals for things I liked or didn't like, without going overboard, while also being as clear as I could about what I wanted. I had to make sure that he got a lot of space for movement for himself to be psychically comfortable with the adjustments, while making sure that he had a definite 'goal' or 'benchmark'. I know that this sounds horrible. But really, it sounds a lot worse than what was actually said or done. Basically, it just means that I had to remember he has an IP temperament, and felt more comfortable with Si and Fe. Too much wild Ne drove him nuts. The Ne of an ENTp differs from the Ne of ENFp. And so I had to force myself to find some middle ground. The burden of this was placed on me, so that he wouldn't get scared or driven away. (He was definitely worth it!!!) As long as I kept him pretty close to his comfort zone, he was fine with certain changes. Over time his comfort zone has expanded.


    Now, he calls me when he's off work and heading home. Or if he doesn't understand something that I needed at the store...like he's not sure which item it is that I wanted. In the winter, when the streets are bad, I have him call me when he gets to work so that I know he got there ok. He refuses to answer the phone nor talk to anyone else over the phone except his bestest friend and his dad/mom. He also prefers text messages over voice calls.

    After 5 years, I still don't know a whole lot about him. He doesn't tell stories about himself nor his day. He prefers to talk about something he read online, and even then his comments are short and not elaborate. He doesn't dwell on the past, nor spends much time at all anticipating the future...except for when it comes to politics, military, and housing market. Notice that none of those are personal. He does tell me that he loves me. But it's mostly shown through his actions rather than his words.

    I've learned that with him I have to make do with not having those kinds of discussions I enjoy. I have to get those kinds of discussions elsewhere, such as friends talking about their relationships, etc. There also isn't all that much passion in the relationship, but there is intimacy (just not a lot of verbalness) and commitment. But, he's totally worth all those losses.

    There are times when I feel isolated and alone in the relationship. When I start to fear that he doesn't love or want me anymore. That he's with me because he has nothing else to do. He's starting to recognize some of the signs that I'm feeling this way and will then go out of his way to hug/kiss me and tell me that he loves me and is happy with me and wants to be with me.
    I think that this has been an area that I had initially had to force myself to speak up on and to let him know what I needed when I felt this way. I also have to keep reminding myself of the things that he does do for me and the ways he does show that he loves me and wants to be with me. It'd be too easy to let the relationship slip away if I didn't. If I don't speak up, it takes him up to a week or so before he finally notices that something's not right with me. I don't blame him for not noticing the signals that I don't give out, as I tend to just withdraw more and more into myself. At this point, he's not getting any Fe nor Ti feedback, and unless he does, he doesn't know anything is wrong.


    All in all, I guess my advice would be for you to adapt to him at first, making effort to help him stay in his comfort zone before asking him to slowly expand it little by little. Yes, this means a lot more work for you, and that you'd be way out of your own comfort zone, but in the long run, you two would slowly learn to adapt to each other. If you two are committed to each other, to having the relationship with each other, then over time it does get easier. (Obviously if you're having to do things that you just aren't comfortable at all doing, then it's not worth you doing as the relationship is doomed. But if it's just unfamiliarity and/or slight discomfort, then the relationship has a chance.)

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    OH wow, great advice in this thread! My good SEI friend is very much the way other SEIs are described here. He does NOT talk about his feelings, he will show me how he feels by his subtle actions (and I know he does the same with his wife and kids). At the height of our friendship when we were getting a lot closer, he did things like give me plants from his garden, give me rides when it was raining, bring me print-outs of information I had hinted I needed, etc. Sweet, sweet man. Runs from any sort of serious discussion or spelling things out. Prefers to keep things light and focused on the here and now. Wants to enjoy life and flees discomfort (emotional or physical). He also moves very slowly when committing himself. I know the story between him and his wife. They knew each other for YEARS before he decided he wanted to get married. It was an extremely slow-moving process. Anyway, ISFps are great (my dad is one also). They don't show much of their depth on the surface though, and I think that would be ultimately a bit unsatisfying for me, to be married to one (HA--coming from one who's married to ESE, that is hilarious )
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    I think anndelise really hit it on the head, I know I'd be feeling those things in that circumstance, and I see that with the SiFe that I know. It's discussions like this that make Socionics worth it to me... I find it almost funny the reaction to sharing feelings being so hard, but to me, I can share my feelings and all my feelings on the spot. At first, in my mind, I thought SiFe wouldn't have much of a problem either, but after reading what was said here and thinking back on my interactions with SiFe, it's definitely true. Good luck though jewels, them leads are hot stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by everyone else
    *what they said*
    yeah, I agree.

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    what anndelise wrote was incredibly cute!!!
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    Great responses guys! Thanks I'll write more later, but for now...

    Let me clarify, I never told him he needed to share his feelings! That would be weird to be like "hey buddy! You better tell me how you feel NOW!" LoL . I definitely don't like to push people like that, and I actually have a hard time saying feelings things explicitly myself. I feel kinda stupid saying things that I think are obvious I guess.

    But usually you have at least one person in a relationship who is the explicit, gushy "omg you are so amazing!" person. Despite being the extrovert, I'm usually not the one to say that stuff. And usually even introvert guys, like INFps or INTps will say things clearly like that after they get to know you, so you know how much they like you.

    He definitely does show that he cares sometimes, but it's in a sorta hot/cold way, and he'll get distracted by work I think and sometimes I just won't hear from him for a while. It's hard to know how often to contact him, or if he wants to do his own thing for a while. I get the impression he's kind of a loner.

    But on the good side, he is easy to talk to and I've definitely opened up about some problems and things that I haven't told anyone else. Great listener. So far things have been fairly "light" in that I haven't even discussed "the relationship" or anyting Fi-ish. But I've pulled back a few times/gotten pissed off because I haven't seen those indications that he cares enough and then I assume he's just playing around.

    But we do have a really interesting interaction...never boring. And we do have a lot of chemistry, which must be the Si. I think he's an enneagram type 6 (the loyalist). 6 - Enneagram Type Six: The Loyalist

    gotta run, but will overanalyze this more in a bit...
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

  29. #29
    Creepy-Pied Piper

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    Last edited by Pied Piper; 06-16-2009 at 12:48 AM.

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  31. #31
    ~~rubicon~~ Rubicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    Hmmm ... just dying to let loose on someone .... didn't want it to be on an SEI up front thats all ....
    Who can take it if not us?
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Who can take it if not us?
    I would hold back until you changed your avatar. He might not be so accomodating, even though he is smiling at me.

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    ~~rubicon~~ Rubicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I would hold back until you changed your avatar. He might not be so accomodating, even though he is smiling at me.
    He does my bidding, so whether he's accomodating or not reflects my wishes. Also, he smiles at friend and foe alike, so it'd be wise not to get too comfy.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

  34. #34
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    Oddly enough, it sounds like SLIs are actually more communicative about their feelings than SEIs. I wouldn't necessarily have expected that, although come to think of it, IME ILIs are also more communicative than IEIs.

    Interesting.
    It's true.

    On a side note this is how some inexperienced members of socionics can confuse creative Te types with creative Fe types. It's one of many weaknesses across the board. SLI's ideally want to be close to people, be able to talk about their feelings and share their thoughts and experiences by direct communication, they are Fi whores.

  35. #35
    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola's Avatar
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    If I was put on the spot about what my feelings were, my brain would try to throw up. I think it just needs to come naturally, more organically. Plus, I tend to show feelings in actions rather than words. Either that or a series of contented grunts. Si ftw? Sorry if that's not very constructive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khola View Post
    If I was put on the spot about what my feelings were, my brain would try to throw up. I think it just needs to come naturally, more organically. Plus, I tend to show feelings in actions rather than words. Either that or a series of contented grunts. Si ftw? Sorry if that's not very constructive.
    Damn right i never needed to ask a looney how they felt .... good grief if you can't see it plastered all over 'em there's something seriously wrong !
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khola View Post
    If I was put on the spot about what my feelings were, my brain would try to throw up. I think it just needs to come naturally, more organically. Plus, I tend to show feelings in actions rather than words. Either that or a series of contented grunts. Si ftw? Sorry if that's not very constructive.
    I agree with this. I hate being put on the spot about my feelings. Really really hate it. I need to feel the freedom to express them the way I want to, or not at all. I don't think this is Si, I think it's Fe-creative.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Who can take it if not us?
    Yea sure ... but i been warned not to talk to that one.
    ILE

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I agree with this. I hate being put on the spot about my feelings. Really really hate it. I need to feel the freedom to express them the way I want to, or not at all. I don't think this is Si, I think it's Fe-creative.
    Or rather, I think it's Ti-HA at work.

    "Don't try to tell me what's important! I'll make that decision myself."

    That works off Ti being "what's important" (hence why LIIs often have strong values), while Fe carries "How do I express that?"

    Fe creative means being able to fit in/resonate/whatever with just about anyone, since it's a contact function, and thus is able to mold itself in response to other people quite readily.

    Bam!

  40. #40
    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    Damn right i never needed to ask a looney how they felt .... good grief if you can't see it plastered all over 'em there's something seriously wrong !
    Who is this Australian whirlwind purporting to be ILE? ASL!?!?

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