ISTp-ENFp duality and implicit perception of emotional needs

[consentingadult]

As I have explained in a thread started by Dioclecian, I hypothesize that the attractiveness in an SLI for an IEE is that the SLI does not project/force unspoken expectations on the IEE (that other types might do anyway, even against the subconscious will of the IEE), which allows the IEE to act fully from intrinsic motivation.

I would like to extend this hypothesis: The attractiveness in an IEE for the SLI is that the SLI does not have to speak out their emotional needs and wants, because the IEE will perceive them anyway and try to fulfill those needs.

I realize that both aspects are somewhat IEE-centric, and that more SLI-centric (Si/Te) aspects can also be added to clarify the nature of IEE-SLI duality.

Does this make sense?

[Slacker]

I do get kind of anxious when people have expectations of me. I hate obligations. If I'm going to do something, I want to do it for my own reasons and not because someone else thinks I should or have to.

And true enough, my husband doesn't have a lot of expectations of me. He wants to be fed every day but he has no particular expectations about how that should happen.

I don't think that's *all* the attractiveness or even necessarily most of it, but it is true that I like that. Or at least not being like that that repels me.

[consentingadult]

He wants to be fed every day but he has no particular expectations about how that should happen.

Wouldn't that be a thing that an SLI is perfectly capable of doing himself? I would have expected HIM to take care of dinner

I don't think that's *all* the attractiveness or even necessarily most of it, but it is true that I like that. Or at least not being like that that repels me.

Perhaps 'attractiveness' is not the right word, maybe I should have used 'appeal' instead, and then in a more subconscious meaning of the word as well. BTW, I assume here that you are talking about type-related aspects of the attraction/appeal, because of course they must be things in your husband that you like but aren't type related.

Feel free to elaborate what it is in SLIs that works for you. What I'm actually looking for, is an understanding of IEE-SLI duality, and only those aspects that are type related.

[Slacker]

Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? In the third part of that, there's this bride freaking out worried about getting married who locks herself in the bathroom. And her parents are freaking out about her being locked in the bathroom while the guests are arriving. This goes on for ages, with her parents getting more and more upset and getting nowhere with her. So finally, the groom comes up, and they begrudgingly tell him what the problem is - that she's anxious and crying, and she's locked herself in the bathroom and won't come out. He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". And that's all she needed - she comes out of the bathroom ready to get married. The anxiety of her parents wasn't helping her anxiety. She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

[consentingadult]

Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? In the third part of that, there's this bride freaking out worried about getting married who locks herself in the bathroom. And her parents are freaking out about her being locked in the bathroom while the guests are arriving. This goes on for ages, with her parents getting more and more upset and getting nowhere with her. So finally, the groom comes up, and they begrudgingly tell him what the problem is - that she's anxious and crying, and she's locked herself in the bathroom and won't come out. He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". And that's all she needed - she comes out of the bathroom ready to get married. The anxiety of her parents wasn't helping her anxiety. She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

No never heard of that movie, but it sounds like fun. IMDB says it's a TV show, is that right? Let's see if I can get a copy of it.

The more I think of it, the more I doubt I've ever run into an ISTp. I had a date last year with a woman that didn't say very much and actually gave me the feeling she wasn't interested at all, not in the positive sense, but also in the negative sense, her attitude seemed completely neutral to me. So at the end of the date, I wanted to shake her hand and say goodbye, and she suddenly smiled joyfully as if she liked me and had enjoyed the date and wanted to give me a friendly goodbye kiss (the way we Dutch typically do: 3 kisses on the cheeks). I was flabbergasted at the contrast in behavior. Does this sound ISTp to you?

[Slacker]

Well, when my husband and I started going out, after the first few dates I honestly thought he didn't like me. He just didn't show much response to me at all. I was mystified. He still mystifies me sometimes - I'll think he's angry or upset or something and I'll ask him what's wrong and he'll say, "Nothing's wrong. Why would you think that?" But I don't know about the joyful thing at the end. Sometimes he will suddenly surprise me and show a lot of emotion but that isn't a really common thing, and it particularly wasn't when we had just started dating.

So she could be ISTp but it's hard to say from so little information.

[Park]

No never heard of that movie, but it sounds like fun. IMDB says it's a TV show, is that right? Let's see if I can get a copy of it.

other scenes

[munenori2]

Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? In the third part of that, there's this bride freaking out worried about getting married who locks herself in the bathroom. And her parents are freaking out about her being locked in the bathroom while the guests are arriving. This goes on for ages, with her parents getting more and more upset and getting nowhere with her. So finally, the groom comes up, and they begrudgingly tell him what the problem is - that she's anxious and crying, and she's locked herself in the bathroom and won't come out. He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". And that's all she needed - she comes out of the bathroom ready to get married. The anxiety of her parents wasn't helping her anxiety. She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

This is perfect on so many levels.

Could you qualify this generally as an NF example? Ah, who cares!

[schrödinger's cat]

Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? ... He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". ... She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

Especially when they solve a complex (to me) problem with a very terse, matter-of-fact remark.

Sometimes I wonder if that isn't part of our Ti PoLR - an inability to see "the big picture" in one go. It's like having a multi-faceted diamond, I can only see one, two, perhaps three facets at a time. Everything looks promising, then you tilt the diamond a little and see the other facets, and it all looks bleak. At the worst, it all becomes one big tangle. ISTps seem to be good at summing things up. Without telling me what to do, trying and making up my mind for me, giving me a chilly cold-blooded Fi-less opinion that makes me slowly back out of the room, or thinking I'm merely being indecisive, inconsistent or dim.

Another thing about IEE-SLI duality: does that ever happen to anyone else? -- You tell an ISTp exactly what it is they're doing, and you're blunt, and they just grin as if they're thinking: "Yup, that's what I'm like, how wonderful that finally someone's GETTING it!" So you could say "come here and give us a hug, you sociopathic perfectionist you", and they'd take it as a compliment? (Bad example, probably..)

[Kim]

Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? In the third part of that, there's this bride freaking out worried about getting married who locks herself in the bathroom. And her parents are freaking out about her being locked in the bathroom while the guests are arriving. This goes on for ages, with her parents getting more and more upset and getting nowhere with her. So finally, the groom comes up, and they begrudgingly tell him what the problem is - that she's anxious and crying, and she's locked herself in the bathroom and won't come out. He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". And that's all she needed - she comes out of the bathroom ready to get married. The anxiety of her parents wasn't helping her anxiety. She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

Absolutely. Nothing like an entirely calm "chill out babe" to snap me out of neurotic hysteria.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuBwxePS-s0

<3

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Slacker
Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? In the third part of that, there's this bride freaking out worried about getting married who locks herself in the bathroom. And her parents are freaking out about her being locked in the bathroom while the guests are arriving. This goes on for ages, with her parents getting more and more upset and getting nowhere with her. So finally, the groom comes up, and they begrudgingly tell him what the problem is - that she's anxious and crying, and she's locked herself in the bathroom and won't come out. He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". And that's all she needed - she comes out of the bathroom ready to get married. The anxiety of her parents wasn't helping her anxiety. She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

Absolutely. Nothing like an entirely calm "chill out babe" to snap me out of neurotic hysteria.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuBwxePS-s0

<3

@Park

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I was grinning like an idiot, going "awwwwwwww" for like a whole minute after I read this. :wink:

The emotions are within

[istpunk]

gay sex

[consentingadult]

As I have explained in a thread started by Dioclecian, I hypothesize that the attractiveness in an SLI for an IEE is that the SLI does not project/force unspoken expectations on the IEE (that other types might do anyway, even against the subconscious will of the IEE), which allows the IEE to act fully from intrinsic motivation.

I would like to extend this hypothesis: The attractiveness in an IEE for the SLI is that the SLI does not have to speak out their emotional needs and wants, because the IEE will perceive them anyway and try to fulfill those needs.

I realize that both aspects are somewhat IEE-centric, and that more SLI-centric (Si/Te) aspects can also be added to clarify the nature of IEE-SLI duality.

Does this make sense?

Yes, it does make sense indeed. To paraphrase Maritsa: "Confirm"!

[Park]

[applejacks]

Park loves that I carry such enthusiasm for things in which I have little understanding : )

[InvisibleJim]

IEE hozing itt.

[SyrupDeGem]

I generally dislike going with the general consensus but i have to agree re:NTR business. I can absolutely see an IEE involving the help of others to look 'polished' in a conventional way because you think it will make someone happy... i'd definately do that. I once had professional make-up for a birthday... ok so it was a present from an ESFJ friend but i really enjoyed it, (it was tedious) but interesting. I think i have had some 'killer' outfits... maybe not standard fashion, or trendy but my own style and i have felt that others have interpreted it so.
Things like a little house on the prarie dress with dm's and red lipstick...well anyway, in my younger years.

[SyrupDeGem]

Oh hummm... am now remembering the disagreement i had with the make up artist re: lipstick, she said my eyes were the feature and i could only have one feature and i should have nude lispstick... ewks! Nude lipstick just looks bizarre to me... almost antiflesh.. so i asked for pinky lipstick... she was not impressed but eventually could see that i would not budge on it and begrudgingly applied it.... i have picture... (me on right)

Attachment 2092

This was me polished by others (though i did chose the outfit myself)

[applejacks]

Oh hummm... am now remembering the disagreement i had with the make up artist re: lipstick, she said my eyes were the feature and i could only have one feature and i should have nude lispstick... ewks! Nude lipstick just looks bizarre to me... almost antiflesh.. so i asked for pinky lipstick... she was not impressed but eventually could see that i would not budge on it and begrudgingly applied it.... i have picture... (me on right)

Attachment 2092

This was me polished by others (though i did chose the outfit myself)

Look at you, sexy thang! I personally love the lipstick : ) It's addicting though, isn't it?

[blackburry]

If it is type related.. Then I learned something new today?
......!

[DaftPunk]

Oh hummm... am now remembering the disagreement i had with the make up artist re: lipstick, she said my eyes were the feature and i could only have one feature and i should have nude lispstick... ewks! Nude lipstick just looks bizarre to me... almost antiflesh.. so i asked for pinky lipstick... she was not impressed but eventually could see that i would not budge on it and begrudgingly applied it.... i have picture... (me on right)

Attachment 2092

This was me polished by others (though i did chose the outfit myself)

Very hot

[Park]

I'll help you pick your outfits applejacks, if you help me pick my girlfriends.

[anndelise]

I'll help you pick your outfits applejacks, if you help me pick my girlfriends.

No fair...you'd just have her keep removing clothing until it was "just right".

[applejacks]

I'll help you pick your outfits applejacks, if you help me pick my girlfriends.

I'm sorry, did you say something? I was thinking about the Batman Moonbounce again.

[Park]

I have delicate tastes, it's true.

[Amoeba]

IEE = SLI sex toy.

[Park]

I want an SLI bride.

[Kim]

I want an SLI bride.

Snap out of it.

[Galen]

Okay so I've been living with two SLIs for the past few months SO I KNOW WHAT TRUE DUALITY IS LIKE



With one of them (Si-SLI 9w8 sx/sp???), I find myself in a constant struggle trying to inject some sort of emotional maturity. He tends to put on a front where he becomes oblivious to all problems around him, and passes them off by laughing and making funny noises and speaking in funny accents. He types as ENFP, but he seems rather oblivious to other people's emotional reactions and perspectives, and he rarely ever expresses his own deeper sentiments unless pushed to do so by myself. We actually used to be best friends: there was a rather engaging boyish charm to him that I found easy to connect with. But, living with people and getting to know more about how they operate tends to change relationships, and we've since dissolved into nothing more than roommates at this point.

The other (Te-SLI 6w7 sp/sx) is much more emotionally grounded than the other and ultimately easier to connect with. He says he likes to talk to people, which can be refreshing since I don't often initiate conversations with many. He's a bit more worldly experienced and tends to have interesting things to talk about and share with others, and I find myself very receptive to it. He's notably dryer in terms of overall affect than the other guy, but he still knows how to have fun and be a stupid goof when he feels like it (apparently I'm not particularly fond of the "stupid goof" side of people, guess I'm fucked). Definitely more emotionally and intellectually mature than the other one as well, we get on rather well.

[Cyrano]

Galen, Is it rare to find two SLIs? How did you types them as SLI? A SLI that likes to talk to people, and another who makes funny noises and speaks in funny accents? Not sure that's SLI behavior. What did you see?

[consentingadult]

As someone reminded me of this post by putting a 'like' on it, I think I can now, after ten years, say something more significant about the matter.

As I explained in the first post, SLIs do not project unspoken and unwanted expectations on an IEE. Conventional Socionics wisdom explain this as IEEs having a need to keep their freedom, happy-go-lucky as they are, or so they claim. But this is not the case. The most important aspect of SLIs not projecting expectations on IEEs, is that this more or less frees IEEs from emotional 'contamination'. In contact with SLIs, IEEs reach a state of emotional neutrality (largely in terms of Fe) which causes the storms in their brains fade away, figuratively speaking of course. They are, in fact, 'contaminated' with Si, their dual seeking function. And this in turn is a precondition for becoming truly productive and creative and do something good with their lives. Si is a precondition for IEEs becoming their true and best selves.Without Si in their lives, IEEs are just wandering in the desert:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...stive-and.html

Likewise, Ne is a precondition for SLIs and SEIs to becoming their true and best selves.

[at sirac son of sirac]

As someone reminded me of this post by putting a 'like' on it, I think I can now, after ten years, say something more significant about the matter.

As I explained in the first post, SLIs do not project unspoken and unwanted expectations on an IEE. Conventional Socionics wisdom explain this as IEEs having a need to keep their freedom, happy-go-lucky as they are, or so they claim. But this is not the case. The most important aspect of SLIs not projecting expectations on IEEs, is that this more or less frees IEEs from emotional 'contamination'. In contact with SLIs, IEEs reach a state of emotional neutrality (largely in terms of Fe) which causes the storms in their brains fade away, figuratively speaking of course. They are, in fact, 'contaminated' with Si, their dual seeking function. And this in turn is a precondition for becoming truly productive and creative and do something good with their lives. Si is a precondition for IEEs becoming their true and best selves.Without Si in their lives, IEEs are just wandering in the desert:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...stive-and.html

Likewise, Ne is a precondition for SLIs and SEIs to becoming their true and best selves.

I don't think it's quite the case, if socionics relations are true, then it's my experience that SLIs don't have expectations of IEEs because the IEE uses their creative function - Fi in such a way that the SLI doesn't have a need for expectation.

They have enough freedom to come and go as they please whilst being aware the relationship is solid.

A lot of this comes down to situations, an SLI-IEE who are 20 will have a lot less expectation than a couple who are say, possibly late 30s, as expectation may be the norm - money to pay the bills, a family to have, if not started yet.

I'm not convinced enough of ITRs being true. Sure, my best relations appear to have been with delta NFs from what I can tell, but i've seen many relations and not just relations, but people getting on who should not get on, according to the theory.

But then, this is a socionics forum, so I am aware i'm on the fringes so to speak, with my observations not being in line with others on here - or at least the expectations of observations.

[Hope]

This.^

Thats exactly how it works in my case. I think in interpersonal relations I never project or push others to anything and absolutely I dont want others to fulfill my expectations because I don't have any (more than basic respect). I take things as they come. I'm a very easy going and accepting person, in the same sense I don't accept a different treatment for myself. So I think that actually the freedom goes also in this sense, IEEs dont feel like they have to fulfill expectations so they feel comfortable and at ease, SLI resist to fulfill expectations for no good reason even if they are told. Both enjoy having certain level of freedom in their relations.

[Bertrand]

I feel like its the sort of thing you absolutely cannot put in a box because as soon as you tell these types what it should look like they'll find a way to make it work in exactly some other way (if they're so inclined) [1]. a better way to look at is theyre not playing the same game as anyone else, so they can look like anything whereas the underlying reality is something as dual irrationals is something they uniquely perceive (particularly along Ne Si lines, i.e.: the outer situation as they understand it, combined with Fi) this makes their outward manifestation, their words, the way they look, the way they describe things, totally idiosyncratic. at the end of the day though its precisely that dynamic that "speaks" to them, its like their unique form of dogwhistling to one another. if you told these types "oh you don't have expectations" that's not quite right, its true in some sense, but its more that the expectations sort of explode what we traditionally think of as "expectations in a relationship", but they are nevertheless there in some other sense. this is the dyad, I think, that could "play" at any sort of dynamic, one with tons of "expectations" or none at all, because they operate on a level where those labels and signs and concepts even are just a "thin ethical game." their mutual inner outer understanding (FiNe) is privately shared and outward they care not for (Fe Ti polrs)

[1] this could lead to "alternative" arrangements, or even hyper conservative forms of relating. the point is they choose

[Rebelondeck]

I doubt that there's implicit perception of emotional needs among duals because most needs are a result of environment, experience and upbringing. Some types are better at reading emotional needs like perhaps IEEs. Duals can fill in some of gaps in each other's information processing but individual needs have to be discovered by the other partner. Duals cannot totally provide for each other's emotional needs although they will likely come to understand them intimately. I find that duals tend to give each other elbow room so that each partner can deal with their own needs - often providing a safe base from which to do this.

a.k.a. I/O

[Bethanyclaire]

I doubt that there's implicit perception of emotional needs among duals because most needs are a result of environment, experience and upbringing. Some types are better at reading emotional needs like perhaps IEEs. Duals can fill in some of gaps in each other's information processing but individual needs have to be discovered by the other partner. Duals cannot totally provide for each other's emotional needs although they will likely come to understand them intimately. I find that duals tend to give each other elbow room so that each partner can deal with their own needs - often providing a safe base from which to do this.

a.k.a. I/O

@Lady Leviathan

Could be helpful to read..

[wasp]

@Rebelondeck I think that's missing the point of OP's observations tho

it's easy to argue that every type can do anything and nothing is type related (which isn't exactly what you're doing here, I know, but it feels similar)

IEEs have the most useful tools for psychoanalysis. Ne-Fi is literally about entering the heads of other people, it's about shifting perspectives, it's about analyzing intentions, it's about identifying hidden insecurities and attachments, especially in the case of IEE-Ne, anyway I think it was bertrand who said that IEEs are notorious for managing fears in other people, so if they have an average capacity for empathy then it means that they're usually worrying excessively about how their words/actions are being perceived by the outside world, which inhibits their natural expression because they're not thinking from intrinsic motivation anymore, so instead it morphs into high social neuroticism ("how can I say/do [x] without accidentally hurting [y]?") especially IEEs who have formed friendships where they sincerely want to do best by their friends, but it's extremely easy to take advantage of them in those circumstances because they'll forgive a lot from people they've formed attachments with, if only because they're social creatures by nature, then over time it becomes near impossible for them to relax without feeling like they gotta manage everybody in their environment i.e. secondhand neuroticism

that doesn't mean IEE is the pinnacle of morality because sometimes the reverse happens where they think "how can I say/do [x] to get a reaction from [y]?" because Ne is still their lead function - even if it's lighthearted usage, it still has the potential to get under people's skin, if taken to an unreasonable degree - BUT true evil is hard to come by, so IEEs usually fall into the position of inadvertently helping out their friends (and strangers alike) at the direct expense of themselves, in socionics terms that's like forcing them to use their creative instead of their leading function, which turns "helping people" into a chore instead of a fulfilling pastime, but SLIs are literally self-sufficient by nature, which doesn't mean that they don't need some "psychoanalysis" from time to time, even if they're some of the most low-maintenance people I've ever met, it just means that they won't expect it from IEEs in the same way that other types might, which ironically enough makes IEEs want to help them even more, but this time it's enjoyable for them because it's a choice

therefore SLIs don't project their emotional needs onto IEEs because they know how to take care of themselves, that's literally the foundation of their calmness, so instead of IEEs absorbing secondhand neuroticism, they end up absorbing secondhand calmness, and so they can finally act naturally

[Rebelondeck]

@Rebelondeck I think that's missing the point of OP's observations tho

it's easy to argue that every type can do anything and nothing is type related (which isn't exactly what you're doing here, I know, but it feels similar)..........

I do think that people are born blank slates and type determines how one goes about filling the slate; type determines the perspectives and processing that will likely be taken toward all information and experiences so in that way, type influences everything. However, a type raised in a middleclass home in a western society will likely have much different emotional needs than an identical type raised in a squalid, crime-ridden refugee camp. It is very difficult to separate baggage from type and many on this site seem to have trouble doing that........

a.k.a. I/O

[aixelsyd]

Looks like I'm not the only one who had no idea an SLI was interested. I met my wife via an online dating site and she was the first to message me. We mostly talked about our respective work and what have you. She proposed a meet up after a few weeks. I reluctantly went (was over dating at that point but had no real reason to say "no" when she seemed decent granted not my type). I was surprised to find her attractive and familiar from the get-go. She wasn't at all what I expected. I expected a rather feminine woman but her hair was cropped shorter and her mannerisms matched that of two other women I had had crushes on in the past whose types eluded me. Had her pegged as SLI from the get-go, though I was inclined to go for ILIs, at the time, and finding much disappointment in the process.

In any case, it was the first date that I truly had a good time: at a bar right off the beach and less than five miles from where I lived, then. Her own apartment was right around the corner. We simply hung out until sunset. She had explained she had forgotten that she agreed to meet me and so threw an outfit on last minute. I thought nothing of it.

We texted sporadically for the next couple of months. I actually had no inkling that she liked me liked me, really. Even after the second time I met up with her, months later, where she was rather drunk and started kissing me only to pass out shortly after, I didn't think there was anything there, rationalizing it that she was merely drunk and desperate. After all, I was still not over another girl I was talking with but no longer. I told her that after the fact. She didn't mind.

It wasn't until after a few weeks of hanging out (her feeding my malnourished ass) that I had started falling for her that I learned the truth. Even from the first time we met, she revealed she was thinking of fucking me right then and there at the bar. Hell, even before that, I'd discover many months later when we started talking about marriage, that she knew I was the one. Here I thought we were just friends when she was already planning on marrying me. And here we are.

Type related? Maybe.