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Thread: +, -, and Sephiroth

  1. #1
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    Default +, -, and Sephiroth

    I'm putting this in Beta because Seph is an INFp, after all. I want to know how real INFps compare -- or contrast -- themselves to this character.

    I assume most all of you have heard of him. Particularly, I want to focus on his words in Advent Children. I think our understanding of + and - as a factor of accepting/producing (INFp creates +Fe to keep things moving along (-Ni)) can help us study Sephiroth as a character. He's quite compelling because he is undeniably evil, and I think that identifying the contrasts between his thinking and healthy INFp thought can help us understand the general principles of relation between healthy people and sociopaths. Obviously such understanding is worth having.

    From FFVII: Advent Children.

    Sephiroth: Good to see you, Cloud.

    [Sephiroth knocks Cloud away, back to the top of the buildings they
    were on. Sephiroth jumps on a higher building and looks down at

    Sephiroth: Your Geostigma's gone, Cloud. That's too bad.

    Cloud: Sephiroth, what do you want?

    Sephiroth: The last thoughts of Geostigma's dead. Those remnants
    will join the Lifestream and girdle the planet -- choking it,
    corroding it. What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the
    cosmos with this Planet as my vessel -- just as my mother did
    long ago.

    [Sephiroth lifts his hand into the sky and it turns pitch black.]

    Sephiroth: Then one day we'll find a new planet, and on its soil we'll
    create a shining future.

    Cloud: What about this planet?

    Sephiroth: Well, that's up to you, Cloud.

    [Cloud and Sephiroth fly toward each other and begin an absolutely
    epic battle.]

    [A "Black Lifestream" can be seen coming down to take over the city
    of Midgar and Edge.]

    [Scene switches to Marlene, where she hears a drop of water.]

    Marlene: Is it her?!

    [Scene switches back to Cloud and Sephiroth, who are in the middle
    of the darkness battling fiercely.]

    [Sephiroth disappears and then reappears to the side of Cloud and
    knocks him into an old building. The two continue the fight and
    eventually lock swords.]

    Sephiroth: Where did you find this strength?

    Cloud: I'm not about to tell you!

    [Both of them come out of the building and onto another. They
    continue their fight, with Sephiroth having the upper hand. Sephiroth
    jumps into the air and continues flying up, mocking Cloud in the

    Sephiroth: I thought of a wonderful present for you.

    [Sephiroth slashes a large piece of falling debris in half with his
    sword to try to hit Cloud. Cloud slashes right through it and
    continues on after Sephiroth.]

    Sephiroth: Shall I give you despair?

    [Sephiroth knocks Cloud down, but Cloud manages to stab his sword
    into the side the building to serve as a platform to stand on.
    Sephiroth hovers above Cloud.]

    Sephiroth: On your knees. I want you to beg for forgiveness.

    [The entire top of the building suddenly begins to fall toward the
    both of them. Sephiroth slices through it effortlessly. Cloud removes
    one part of his sword and uses both to slice cleanly through the
    massive debris.]

    [Sephiroth then comes out from behind some of it and knocks Cloud
    down onto one of the falling pieces. The two begin to exchange blows
    on the falling ground.]

    [Cloud eventually jumps off and heads up to another piece of ruined
    building. He gets to the top and then falls to one knee. Suddenly,
    Sephiroth catches up and tries to slash at him, but the Cloud avoids]

    [Sephiroth pushes Cloud back against a wall and stabs him in his
    right shoulder.]

    Sephiroth: Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of
    taking it away.

    [All sorts of memories flash through Cloud's mind very quickly.
    Angered, he grabs Sephiroth's sword out of his shoulder and stands

    Cloud: I pity you. You just don't get it at all.

    Sephiroth: Heh.

    [Sephiroth run towards Cloud and tries to attack, but his attack his
    blocked. He jumps off of a wall and hovers in the air. Cloud leaps
    into the air as well.]

    Cloud: There's not a thing I don't cherish!

    [Cloud then pulls his sword back and flings it forward, allowing all
    of his blades to come out and surround Sephiroth. Moving fast enough
    to leave golden after glows, he performs his Limit Break "Omnislash
    V5 on Sephiroth, defeating him.]

    Cloud: Stay where you belong ... in my memories.

    Sephiroth: I will ... never be a memory.

    Seph's opening lines reflect heavy -Ni+Fe. But with a twist. The +Fe is actually going to have as its consequences the destruction of the entire lifestream; so although it is creating more activity inside the planet, the outcome of the activity will be non-activity: it is +Fe bent on the creation of -Fe.

    This is Sephiroth's defining trait as a villain: he raises function content as a means of destroying it. I've heard it said before (in a plot analysis of the movie) that Sephiroth is like a kind of virus, and this is an accurate analogy. A virus creates more activity in its host by spreading, by means of which it eventually kills both the host and itself along with it. +Fe that creates -Fe.

    The -Fe that arises from Seph's +Fe is not the same as say, Alpha -Fe, in the sense that Alpha sees an absence of Fe and then brings it into being (machintruc's observations), whereas Sephiroth's -Fe is trying to destroy Fe altogether. Alpha -Fe would, say, look at the ruin of a triumphant Sephiroth and return life to the ruin.

    The following passage would seem to indicate that Sephiroth's other functions are also intended for destruction, as opposed to creation.
    Sephiroth: Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of
    taking it away.
    "Tell me what you cherish most" is Sephiroth asking for +Te from Cloud. Sephiroth intends to use this (reckless) communication to inflict harm to Cloud (-Si), thus destroying Cloud's -Si. He would accomplish this by destroying those close to Cloud, those who play a role in his life. This was a big mistake on Sephiroth's part, because to Cloud those relationships are the very core of who he is as an ISTp; of course he would never stand to lose the Si whose creation he identifies himself with. For Sephiroth, Si is a responsibility; for Cloud, it's a way of life. Superego relations at work, with the predictable response of the one threatening other's role in the world, only to be taken aback with a determined counterattack. Sephiroth also erred by using +Te to inquire into +Fi... which struck a nerve in Cloud's HA.

    "Give me the pleasure of taking it away" What does this mean? It's not clear what the functional attribution is. It's most likely Si because it's in the context of Te, which implies that Sephiroth is actually expects to obtain higher personal Si at the cost of Cloud's. This is an important aspect of the problem: Sephiroth receives reward from destruction.

    What drives Sephiroth? As he makes clear, it's his id. "What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos with this planet as my vessel." Sephiroth doesn't give a damn about society or it's wants; it's a distraction. He only cares about fulfilling his program of seeking "godhood". This will be the foundation for the goals of his deepest, "darkest" desires: finding a new planet and using -Fe to create the life of his "shining" +Ni future.

    So what's the difference between Seph and a healthy INFp? Well, their orders are the same, functions, polarities, and all... except Seph sees the leading element of each function as the problem, and its contrary as the solution. Enthusiastic -Ni+Fe? It's getting in the way of +Ne-Fi: reinforcing character brings out one's inner potential. It doesn't matter that this is thinking produces little social value, because that's not what he cares about. It's the very fact that it does not have social value, but is rather primordial and primal, that makes it appealing. It is creation of its own very sake, from the ruin of destruction.

    Well now wait a sec... if Sephiroth wanted to enhance Cloud's character to bring out his potential... then wouldn't that mean that Sephiroth intended to help Cloud all along?

  2. #2

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    gay sex
    Last edited by istpunk; 07-17-2008 at 07:09 PM.

  3. #3

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    Sephiroth seems like an depressing "emo", so INFP fits perfectly.
    Fuck you, you sissy little delta that needs a fucking womanly-ENFp bitch to save you all the god fucking time. Seriously.

    INFps aren't depressing emos. Even though I admit, I thought it was kinda... a little much how emo became the new 'gay.' The new all-purpose insult. Fuck that level of ignorance. People who say that usually aren't smart enough to argue their point anyway, no offense. ;p

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