On Beta Extraverted Ethics Fe

[aestrivex]

this is generally poorly understood, so i'll attempt to explain it. i'm not even saying that i completely subscribe to this interpretation of "expatian" socionics, but it does seem like it at least describes a number of things fairly effectively.


essentially, this whole thing started with the attempt to explain phaedrus as an IEI. the idea is that, in addition to phaedrus' obvious butchering of Ti/Te, phaedrus is more oriented towards a sort of passive relation towards Fe, which manifests as a need to both have his Ti interpretations accepted and to positively influence the emotional atmosphere, with an eye towards the future.

in fact, i'll show you expat's words. this discussion is straight from the talk page of http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...eed17/userlist.

Nice list. I just think that you tend to see as Ti-ego some people who are Ti quadra, but not necessarily - and in my opinion not probably - Ti dominants. In my opinion you're a bit oblivious to their use of Fe, but that also makes sense. Expat 16:59, 27 September 2007 (BST)

such as who? Niffweed17 21:35, 27 September 2007 (BST)

Such as Phaedrus, Jarno, and Dioklecian. You've typed them all as LII, but I think IEI is more likely. Benchmarking a bit, LIIs are more like thehotelambush and Logos, in my opinion -- they prefer Ti to Te, but they do not "massacre" Te, which is what Phaedrus does, and Jarno, to a lesser extent (because he keeps a lower profile), while Dio's behavior is very Ti, Fe, and victim imo. Oh, and snegledmaca. I think he's a good example of IEI who knows very well what he is and why. I think that male IEIs are a bit "orphan" in socionics and MBTI. The typical IEI descriptions emphasize Fe in a way they don't identify much with, because it's too "expressive", while the MBTI INFP is most like an EII and the INFJ, at best like an EIE. So there is actually no obvious description for them, and they tend to "migrate" to INTP, which is not really like an ILI because it does not value Fi and does value Ti. The same thing seems to be happening to dee who, incredibly, thinks he's ILI. I don't think it's only self-delusion since it happens too often. The exceptions are snegledmaca and misutii, who recognize they are IEIs despite also identifying most with INTP. That makes perfect sense to me. That is also the reason why Phaedrus and Jarno are the biggest proponents of ABCD = ABCd. They only identify well with INTP, and the only way they have to also use socionics while seeing themselves as "logical", which they convinced themselves they must be, is with the ILI = INTP bullshit. That's what's happening, but, again, only snegledmaca and misutii truly understand the situation "from inside" - because they bothered to understand the functions, which the others haven't. Expat 23:03, 27 September 2007 (BST)

hmm. well, you've certainly given me quite a bit to think about. there's definitely something to what you're saying, but i'm not sure how it fits. dio for example is somebody who i would have a hard time seeing as victim; i think he has demonstrated on numerous occasions that he is looking for an Fe caregiver. he seems to react very negatively to anything that doesn't function as an emotional booster. although i can see a significant distinction between his thinking, which doesn't appear to exist at all, and that of an LII like hotelambush. (btw im relieved to see you no longer see dio as IEE. there's absolutely no way he's Te/Fi.) i need a few days to think about everything here. Niffweed17 00:57, 28 September 2007 (BST)

Well, Dio's type is secondary, or even unimportant, to my reasoning above, which I think is indeed valid for Phaedrus, Jarno, snegledmaca, and misutii. I don't have a firm opinion on Dio's type, and I didn't, either, when I said I thought he was IEE. I did think that, but it was more like a guestimate, I couldn't make a very good case. So perhaps I shouldn't have included Dio in my list above. Expat 08:53, 28 September 2007 (BST)

Another point. Kristiina now sees herself as EIE, rightly so in my and Rick's opinion, and I think she truly understands the type. In person her Fe-ego is very clear. Yet she thought at first she was LII, then LIE. I think it may be a characteristic of the Beta quadra - even the ethical types - to focus on, or value, their Ti so much that they don't really identify with Fe. Perhaps because Fe is described too often in an Alpha, "touchy-feely", way that they don't see in themselves. In a broad-brush way, Alpha's Fe helps them to "reflect and delight in", Beta's Fe helps them "to conquer". So, again, I think it makes sense for an IEI, especially male, to identify with INTP. I don't know if Baby or Kioshi also did, but maybe they didn't look at MBTI first. And then it takes some detachment, or soul-searching, to see that IEI makes more sense. Expat 09:59, 28 September 2007 (BST)

essentially the key point here is that these beta NFs ARE exhibiting Fe, but in a passive, Ni-oriented sense rather than in an alpha sense. hitta's recent threads are the prime example. they challenged everybody else for "not supporting change" and placed the blame for his lack of success not on the idiocy of his theories (which seems to me like it would be sensible) but rather on the oppressive surrounding environment, which, according to him, quells new ideas and places little focus on emotional support.

this is the epitome of an > kind of argument. the focus here is absolutely not on any kind of objective analysis of his theory, but rather on the "dynamics" or mood of the surrounding environment.




this is a general overview. but perhaps this exposition might have some application in some present discussions, maybe.