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Thread: Bizarre Si/Ne vs Se/Ni thoughts

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Default Bizarre Si/Ne vs. Se/Ni thoughts...

    I was trying to think about and and think of comparisons. Still my thoughts are overlapping in unclear ways.

    What prompted this was my overall interaction style with someone I know who I think is ESE. I was asking myself, why we have so much difficulty getting along (trying to think about it in terms of Socionics). And I realized that the thing out of everything that seems to create the most issues (on my end) is her disregard for (and perhaps my corresponding de-valuing of ???). She doesn’t seem to really care what people want, fully consider their autonomy, etc. and I see that as not respecting the rights and conscious will of others. The point is, that I value what I want (ahem, if I know what it is) and I care about what others want. So the conflicts with her I think largely stem from what I see as her continued tendency to disregard the will and autonomy of others, as though it is irrelevant, as though it doesn’t exist. In her mind there are often things that are more important and worth more than what an individual person wants – in my mind there often aren’t. She also doesn’t seem to be very good at understanding things from the point of view of others… this confused me because if she’s Fe leading, shouldn’t that be easy (especially when paired with Ne-valuing)… but then I realized the reason I feel she doesn’t see things from others’ viewpoints is that she, again, doesn’t notice their individual will (she does notice other things). I can’t always see people’s will, but I try to think about it, or at least ask them to make sure.

    But what does that have to do with Si vs. Se? Why does valuing Si mean disregarding Se? This is where I haven’t connected the dots. I am starting to notice that Si/Ne valuers often seem to have a larger vision in mind, about what is good for the group somewhat disregarding of the individual (the higher vision is more important). But to me the individual is always more important than almost any higher vision. In my mind, higher visions are not worth sacrificing free will for (granted that may not be quadra related). So maybe it’s that the Si ego person values Ne>Se and that’s what’s creating this sort of conflict (overall vision>individual will). But how would Alpha and Delta higher vision thinking differ? Delta does seem to be somewhat individualistic, which I suspect could have something to do with Fi-valuing… Maybe each quadra has its own brand of individualism. Alpha perhaps has a strong sense of intellectual individualism/freedom in terms of thinking and ideas (actually the ESE person I was thinking of does seem to value that, though she doesn’t seem to value freedom of action). And I do think that individualists can be found in all four quadras. Gamma for some reason doesn’t seem to value freedom of expression very much (or maybe I’m wrong, and categorizing too much).

    I’m not trying to offend anyone with this (so sorry if I have). And I know there are quite a few misperceptions in what I wrote, so if you notice them, feel free to point them out. Mainly I was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts (any) on this (whether strongly or loosely related).

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    Logos's Avatar
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    I'm amused by your interpretation of ESEs. I'm not sure if you get them, but I do find amusement from that and that's the important thing.
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    strrrng's Avatar
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    I didn't see any glaring problem with it, but it seemed as though you were trying too hard to find something to support your perception, thus causing some of your confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Delta does seem to be somewhat individualistic, which I suspect could have something to do with Fi-valuing…
    yeah, I've always thought Ne-Fi was the cause, but also Si.

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Well, I'm glad it was amusing at least.

    I was thinking about Delta more. The individual aspect of Delta does seem to be very Fi/Ne ish. can see the hidden potentials, the probabilities, the realm of what "could be." So when paired with then it's very much about individual human potential: what someone can be, or has the potential to be... or other inherent potentials in humanity.

    Strrrng mentioned the Delta individualism could also be about . How so???

    and is more about potentials that are more objective, like things that could be, not necessarily what people can be. But how would and work together?

    Maybe I don't understand very well. I associate things with it, but they're mostly silly things. Like one day over Christmas Break I wanted to watch a few Dr. Who episodes with my Mom, and she didn't want to at the moment because she was "sitting here enjoying the feeling of digesting my breakfast." I think that was very , and once again I was like, uh, why? Then once she was done she felt the compulsive need to "do" something. The idea of enjoying the feeling of digesting your breakfast really just bounces off my head. Why? That's all I can think about it. (I suspect my mom may be ESE as well, I'm not completely certain about that though.)

    I don't think I understand ESEs very well either. But I am really certain the person I was thinking of (not my mom) is ESE.

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Maybe I don't understand very well. I associate things with it, but they're mostly silly things. Like one day over Christmas Break I wanted to watch a few Dr. Who episodes with my Mom, and she didn't want to at the moment because she was "sitting here enjoying the feeling of digesting my breakfast." I think that was very , and once again I was like, uh, why? Then once she was done she felt the compulsive need to "do" something. The idea of enjoying the feeling of digesting your breakfast really just bounces off my head. Why? That's all I can think about it. (I suspect my mom may be ESE as well, I'm not completely certain about that though.)
    You've never eaten something so tasty, so breathtakingly fufilling that you just wanted to lay back, relax and bask in the aftermath of amazing deliciousityness?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    I was thinking about Delta more. The individual aspect of Delta does seem to be very Fi/Ne ish. can see the hidden potentials, the probabilities, the realm of what "could be." So when paired with then it's very much about individual human potential: what someone can be, or has the potential to be... or other inherent potentials in humanity.

    Strrrng mentioned the Delta individualism could also be about . How so???

    Ne and Ti is more about potentials that are more objective, like things that could be, not necessarily what people can be. But how would Ne and Fe work together?
    it is more Ne/Fi. but Si could be correlated with simple, pleasurable and indivual activities (but then again, it would probably be that way much less in alpha, where the focus is on Fe, so yeah, you're right).

    not completely sure about Ne and Fe dynamic so I won't reply to that yet

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    You've never eaten something so tasty, so breathtakingly fufilling that you just wanted to lay back, relax and bask in the aftermath of amazing deliciousityness?
    Not to the extent that I want to sit down for half an hour and do nothing but feel that... I would have to force myself to concentrate on it that long I think, I don't know... I do know what the feeling is, but it's a background feeling that isn't clear... I might feel it for a minute or so, but then my attention isn't on it anymore... It would be boring to me to just do that... I don't know. I'm not saying it isn't a nice feeling, but spending that much time just feeling it? Can't/don't want to.

    I guess what I mean is, I could read a book while digesting my food. Or I could think about something while digesting my food. Or I could watch something, browse the internet, write something while digesting my food... but what I wouldn't really want to do is just sit there and feel the feeling of digesting my food. I mean, if I were reading something, my mind would be mostly on what I was reading and what I was thinking about that, but then I might realize suddenly that I had that feeling that my energy was back with the calories from the food and be momentarily pleased about that, and then go back to not focusing on it. So I'd focus on the sensation a minority of the time, where as what my mom was doing was fully focusing on it the majority of the time.

    Also if someone tastes overwhelmingly tasty, I'll notice it, I mean who wouldn't?

    Anyway, I honestly don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. Well, maybe I wonder sometimes, or try... but I don't know.
    Last edited by inumbra; 01-15-2008 at 12:19 AM. Reason: add'n and subtraction... I'm done now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I do know what the feeling is, but it's a background feeling that isn't clear...
    I think it's called boredom.

    Also if someone tastes overwhelmingly tasty, I'll notice it, I mean who wouldn't?
    I also notice when someone tastes overwhelmingly tasty. I usually remember this for a long time.
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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    oops, i meant something not someone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post

    But what does that have to do with Si vs. Se? Why does valuing Si mean disregarding Se? This is where I haven’t connected the dots. I am starting to notice that Si/Ne valuers often seem to have a larger vision in mind, about what is good for the group somewhat disregarding of the individual (the higher vision is more important). But to me the individual is always more important than almost any higher vision. In my mind, higher visions are not worth sacrificing free will for (granted that may not be quadra related). So maybe it’s that the Si ego person values Ne>Se and that’s what’s creating this sort of conflict (overall vision>individual will).

    This is very interesting. It very well may be true. My desires always try to reflect the will of all members and do what's best for everyone. I think this aggravates some Beta NFs because they want me to act in the way that benefits myself or them the most without regard for the consequences or how it affects others.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the reduction of free will though..... but I'll just take a guess at it. Do you mean repressing internal desires to benefit oneself and be 'greedy'? Like Alphas always want people to look out for one another?
    Suomea

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    how did free will get connected to Se, though? don't we all have free will no matter what our type? respect for self and others, isn't that just healthy? why is that type related?

    i'd have to say that i'm concerned with my own well being first - because i am my own responsibility...and, being healthy and having my own needs met puts me in a position of being able to be helpful to others.

    i'm not sure this is really an Se/Ni vs Ne/Si thing at all.

    but to be fair loki, sitting around noticing how my body feels while digesting food seems boring to me, too. :wink:

    ILE

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suomea View Post
    This is very interesting. It very well may be true. My desires always try to reflect the will of all members and do what's best for everyone.
    But what if they don't all have the same will? What if there isn't one thing that's best for everyone?

    I think this aggravates some Beta NFs because they want me to act in the way that benefits myself or them the most without regard for the consequences or how it affects others.
    I don't know what to think of that.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the reduction of free will though..... but I'll just take a guess at it. Do you mean repressing internal desires to benefit oneself and be 'greedy'? no Like Alphas always want people to look out for one another?
    I didn't really mean that. Meh. Yeah, this isn't helping. Like how most people I think consider the consequences of their actions and how that will affect others and things at large, I think a lot of people also look out for others (in different ways).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively
    how did free will get connected to Se, though? don't we all have free will no matter what our type? respect for self and others, isn't that just healthy? why is that type related?
    I made a picture:



    But yes, you're right, it may not be related to anything relevant at all, or if it is, be highly insignificant. If anything, I am being biased.
    Last edited by inumbra; 01-16-2008 at 12:47 AM. Reason: img into body w/o link

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    Logos's Avatar
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    Okay, even with that picture I am not getting how = free will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Okay, even with that picture I am not getting how = free will.
    I was trying to say it doesn't = freewill... just that *one* part of respecting someones freewill/autonomy means acknowledging what they want...

    perhaps i'm just lost in my semi-insane nonsense

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    cool fucking picture loki.

    i agree that part of what Se perceives is what people want, what motivates them. it's part of how Se gets people moving in the direction it wants.

    what i don't agree with is the free will part, since i'm not sure that what people want has to be contained within their free will.

    ILE

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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    Si focuses on very personal needs without the consideration of others around them.

    Se focuses on the result of watching everyone else pursue their personal goals and makes an assesment (not explained well, i know) and then selects a personal goal.

    Both Si and Se are about obtaining concrete goals (what people want).

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    Loki, perhaps think of one aspect of as a 'downshift'.

    You wake up in the morning - you slept in, late for work - holy fucking shit! You got a million fucking things to do - shower, make breakfast, then lunch, clothes in the dryer from a wash the night before, pot of coffee to put on, rush, rush, ru-*downshift*

    "Hey," you mutter out loud, "maybe I actually want to enjoy my life!"

    So you do... and maybe you show up two minutes late for work, or miss a class... or maybe you hit all the green lights and because you took that time just to downshift for a moment, you're in an excellent frame of mind for the rest of the day.

    Either way, you don't really care because you just let it ride for a moment and that was the only thing that mattered.

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    Hmm... I don't have anything more to say at this point that's coherent, but I've found that last two posts very interesting/helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Hmm... I don't have anything more to say at this point that's coherent, but I've found that last two posts very interesting/helpful.
    You ever watch Surf's Up?

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