The pathetic hidden agenda

[MysticSonic]

I agree with labcoat, though. I have no objection to the conclusions of this thread, it's just that there seem to be some underlying implications from them, such as that working on the HA or any function that one is weak in is senseless. This is far from true. Although you'll never be able to use such functions naturally, you will, at least over time and by practicing using them(in as sensible way), understand a limited range of situations in which the functions are required. You'll be able to parrot the functions use in such situations because, even though you don't understand how the conclusion to act or think as such is reached, you know that acting as such or concluding as such, in that very limited range of situations, is right. For instance, as an INTj myself, I've needed to learn when, where, and how to take care of my health and the aesthetics of my surroundings, and even though I am not proficient in doing so(that I let such things go), I am better in taking care of such matters than I previously was. I know I'll never be able to act as naturally with Si as an ISXp or ESXj, but I will be able to at least be functional with Si.

[aestrivex]

I agree with labcoat, though. I have no objection to the conclusions of this thread, it's just that there seem to be some underlying implications from them, such as that working on the HA or any function that one is weak in is senseless. This is far from true. Although you'll never be able to use such functions naturally, you will, at least over time and by practicing using them(in as sensible way), understand a limited range of situations in which the functions are required. You'll be able to parrot the functions use in such situations because, even though you don't understand how the conclusion to act or think as such is reached, you know that acting as such or concluding as such, in that very limited range of situations, is right. For instance, as an INTj myself, I've needed to learn when, where, and how to take care of my health and the aesthetics of my surroundings, and even though I am not proficient in doing so(that I let such things go), I am better in taking care of such matters than I previously was. I know I'll never be able to act as naturally with Si as an ISXp or ESXj, but I will be able to at least be functional with Si.

i don't see why that would be contradictory to the nature of the thread.

[MysticSonic]

The conclusions of the thread are correct. I am not disagreeing with them. But there is simply an implication(intended or not) that the HA is unable to be assisted. It was merely that implication that I was addressing.

I was actually planning to make a topic about this, but since Labcoat commented on it already in this topic, I figured I might as well make an addendum to his statement...

[Ms. Kensington]

I don't quite agree with the spirit that this thread is written in. We should be encouraging people to develop their HA instead of ridiculing people who make the attempt. If everyone has an HA anyway, why not be proud of our own?

Ti HA seems to me to be more about making "final judgments" when very little preliminary thinking has been done.

An ISFp that I know exhibits this kind of behavior a lot. One instance that I can call to mind was him reactively saying that the question "can animals feel pain?" was useless to ask in philosophy.

In itself this would be healthy Ti behavior... A type that is actually strong in Ti receives this kind of input all the time. What makes accepting Ti types different, is that besides getting this particular idea about the question, they'd be able to see a great variëty of alternative ideas as well, thus relativating the statement, for example by noticing the ethical implications of the question, the societal value of solving the problem, how it is possible to form inductive ideas on the topic even when deduction fails, etc.

"Ti HA seems to me to be more about making "final judgments" when very little preliminary thinking has been done." This is how I understood Expat to mean.

I love the "relativating" statement. It's exactly the right way to describe my language.

[force my hand]

The Fi Hidden Agenda is REALLY annoying in ISTps.

Shit. This was just my socionics 'sputnik' moment.

It's clear that my hidden agenda has caused me a hell of a lot more trouble than my polr.

[marooned]

Shit. This was just my socionics 'sputnik' moment.

[Suomea]

I agree with labcoat, though. I have no objection to the conclusions of this thread, it's just that there seem to be some underlying implications from them, such as that working on the HA or any function that one is weak in is senseless. This is far from true. Although you'll never be able to use such functions naturally, you will, at least over time and by practicing using them(in as sensible way), understand a limited range of situations in which the functions are required. You'll be able to parrot the functions use in such situations because, even though you don't understand how the conclusion to act or think as such is reached, you know that acting as such or concluding as such, in that very limited range of situations, is right. For instance, as an INTj myself, I've needed to learn when, where, and how to take care of my health and the aesthetics of my surroundings, and even though I am not proficient in doing so(that I let such things go), I am better in taking care of such matters than I previously was. I know I'll never be able to act as naturally with Si as an ISXp or ESXj, but I will be able to at least be functional with Si.

Agree...... I love to use my HA. Most of the time it works out really well.

[Rick]

: behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

Example:

Once I had a semi-business meeting with an LIE expat in Ukraine who boasted profusely about his excellent new job and how his boss had flown him to the job interview by business class and put him up in a 5-star hotel. He told me all this while generously "treating" me to a single cup of $.80 coffee in a shabby street cafe for some useful advice and info I had given him previously.

[Gilly]

You drank an 80 cent cup of coffee? Did it come with a free tetanus shot?

[discojoe]

The Fi Hidden Agenda is REALLY annoying in ISTps.

Shit. This was just my socionics 'sputnik' moment.

It's clear that my hidden agenda has caused me a hell of a lot more trouble than my polr.

ISTp: I'm going to do some really embarrassing and inappropriate thing right now on principle.

Other person: But, here's a list of 10,000 reasons why it's a really bad idea to do that. It makes no sense at all.

ISTp: I gotta do what I gotta do.

Other person: What kind of a response is that? Why do you "gotta do" something horrible and pointless?

ISTp: I'm done arguing.



ARRGH

[Ezra]

Are you sure that's an SLI? Te leading, strong in Ti? Sounds more like an SEI.

[implied]

ISTp: I'm going to do some really embarrassing and inappropriate thing right now on principle.

Other person: But, here's a list of 10,000 reasons why it's a really bad idea to do that. It makes no sense at all.

ISTp: I gotta do what I gotta do.

Other person: What kind of a response is that? Why do you "gotta do" something horrible and pointless?

ISTp: I'm done arguing.



ARRGH

lol, this is annoying regardless of type. fuck this. eta - i totally think people should be able to make their own choices and bla bla bla, but yeah, i could see this as being jarring.

[force my hand]

ISTp: I'm going to do some really embarrassing and inappropriate thing right now on principle.

Other person: But, here's a list of 10,000 reasons why it's a really bad idea to do that. It makes no sense at all.

ISTp: I gotta do what I gotta do.

Other person: What kind of a response is that? Why do you "gotta do" something horrible and pointless?

ISTp: I'm done arguing.



ARRGH

lol, this is annoying regardless of type. fuck this. eta - i totally think people should be able to make their own choices and bla bla bla, but yeah, i could see this as being jarring.

Well, the problem for me is that it seems completely spur of the moment. For example, at my job a few years back they wanted us to start doing stretches before we started working, and I responded with was what essentially a 'fuck you'. Got written up for it, but never ever did the exercises despite all sorts of pressure and implied threats.

I could and did easily rationalize it because a) they were doing the stretches incorrectly and b) workers in other departments who had started the program earlier were actually getting injured from them, but honestly, the real reason was because I just didn't feel like doing it, and just got the notion to NOT do it - no matter what. I was there to perform a job and make money, not toe the line with some executive fuckhead's shitty idea.

[marooned]

I think I envy the Fi hidden agenda. I usually can't do something like that, but there have been times I have wanted to.

[force my hand]

I think I envy the Fi hidden agenda. I usually can't do something like that, but there have been times I have wanted to.

Nooo!

You come out looking bad every time.

[marooned]

I think I envy the Fi hidden agenda. I usually can't do something like that, but there have been times I have wanted to.

Nooo!

You come out looking bad every time.

Maybe. But you didn't want to do the stretches. And you flat out said so.

[munenori2]

The Fi Hidden Agenda is REALLY annoying in ISTps.

Shit. This was just my socionics 'sputnik' moment.

It's clear that my hidden agenda has caused me a hell of a lot more trouble than my polr.

ISTp: I'm going to do some really embarrassing and inappropriate thing right now on principle.

Other person: But, here's a list of 10,000 reasons why it's a really bad idea to do that. It makes no sense at all.

ISTp: I gotta do what I gotta do.

Other person: What kind of a response is that? Why do you "gotta do" something horrible and pointless?

ISTp: I'm done arguing.



ARRGH

You know, call me crazy, but I wish I knew somebody like this fictional character of your nightmares.

[mikemex]

I don't know about you, but I control my hidden agenda very well. I'm not an expert in the field, but I'm definetly not lost when using it.

[FDG]

ISTp: I'm going to do some really embarrassing and inappropriate thing right now on principle.

Other person: But, here's a list of 10,000 reasons why it's a really bad idea to do that. It makes no sense at all.

ISTp: I gotta do what I gotta do.

Other person: What kind of a response is that? Why do you "gotta do" something horrible and pointless?

ISTp: I'm done arguing.


-----------------

Damn. That's exactly how I behave.

[reyn_til_runa]

: behavior aimed at showing how popular and liked by the crowd you are, but that is actually making you look like an ass.

i don't aim to appear popular or well liked, usually aim at disappearing. however, there are times i compensate for social anxiety or other feelings of inadequacy by being obviously apathetic, sort of sitting in the corner half asleep or doing something like homework, or being "too quirky" to avoid having to interact with normal people. not sure how you'd classify the latter.

: unshakeable and stubborn defense of ideas and beliefs against all opposition, with unwillingness to even discuss the possibility of their not being correct

never. i can't stand this attitude.

unshakeable and stubborn unwillingness to compromise on personal behavior and principles against all opposition in a social situation

does this refer to my own personal behavior or others'?

: behavior aimed at showing how competent you are in handling practical and financial affairs, or in how much knowledge in a particular subject you have, but painfully focusing on non-essentials to the point made

if im disorganized and impractical, i deal with it. i am not apt to overestimate my knowledge. if anything i'll underestimate it.

: unshakeable belief that you know exactly what is going to happen in your life in a given situation, or precipitated action since you know that "now is the time to act", but ending up shooting your own foot in both cases[

no, and makes me a little condescending with people, i admit, because it seems so obvious that you should not do this. it makes me think the person has never been in need of anything, never experienced hardship, etc. have they never seen a person die unexpectedly? just can't fathom this behavior. i know not to swear that something will happen, even if in my mind there is 99% chance it will. i do not make 5, 10, 15 year plans. i don't make daily plans. i don't think that far in advance in practical matters, but often imagine distant futures and have an immediate grasp on the direction something is headed.

: behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

i would never do this. i don't like excessive displays of wealth or strength, but for some reason seeing through somebody's attempt to appear wealthier/stronger than they are makes me see them as naively trying to fit in. may be somewhat embarrassed for them because the discrepancy is so obvious yet they seem not to notice, makes them seem childlike, so i don't have negative feelings, per se. i would just think to myself "one day you may learn how valueless material things are....but if you dont know now, youre unlikely to."

: showing off how wiser you are than others in taking care of your health by good food and avoiding personal risks, but making you look like a paranoid pussy-wimp. Also, an essentially unphysical person trying to show off how they master daily details in administration, maintainance, housekeeping, etc

definitely not the first part. i avoid talking about most bodily health issues. i neither praise nor condemn taking personal risks. though i prefer only to take calculated risks, i occasionally act impulsively (adhd). basically i'm out of touch with my body and would rather disappear or have no friends than draw attention to my inability to maintain positive health. not that im sick, i'm just not consistently healthy. also, little things in this area, such as a person bragging about weight loss, complimenting my outfit, or any physical feature being enhanced by makeup when it is clear that the person is trying to make it stand out (this one is a pet peeve). i know this is normal makeup procedure (to accentuate positive bodily traits) but it irritates me, makes a person seem fake or egocentric, or just too aware of attractiveness.

2ne part -don't care about other people seeing me master daily details in admin., etc., although i have always been one to quietly get my job done. i guess id rather not draw attention to being good or bad in that area.

: behavior aiming at showing how original and creative you can be, but making too much out of obvious and trivial ideas.

trying to think if i know someone who does this. i think i do. my reaction to this would be sort of a blank stare. it would be as if there is no point trying to communicate because there will be no understanding. i have no trouble discriminating between creative/trivial ideas. i don't blame people who do, just feel at a loss as to how to proceed.

[Wittmont]

ISTp: I'm going to do some really embarrassing and inappropriate thing right now on principle.

Other person: But, here's a list of 10,000 reasons why it's a really bad idea to do that. It makes no sense at all.

ISTp: I gotta do what I gotta do.

Other person: What kind of a response is that? Why do you "gotta do" something horrible and pointless?

ISTp: I'm done arguing.


-----------------

Damn. That's exactly how I behave.

Interesting. Maybe the ISTp here really is an ESTp which would make Discojoe's example one of supervision... ?

[FDG]

I don't know. Many ESTps I know are far better at knowing what's socially right to do.

[Mea]

I don't know. Many ESTps I know are far better at knowing what's socially right to do.

They LEARN what's socially right to do. That's what I've observed.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[eunice]

Ne HA from my LSE boss: Two weeks ago, she wanted me to compile the training statistics for the current year and showed me an example of how one of my colleagues compiled them into powerpoint slides last year. We have differing opinions on how the information should be presented. I decided to retain the format of the powerpoint slides and just edit the numbers. However, she prompted me to think of ways about how the slides can be improved and how the information could be better presented rather than following the previous year format. To me, if it ain't broken, why fix it?

[implied]

Well, the problem for me is that it seems completely spur of the moment. For example, at my job a few years back they wanted us to start doing stretches before we started working, and I responded with was what essentially a 'fuck you'. Got written up for it, but never ever did the exercises despite all sorts of pressure and implied threats.

I could and did easily rationalize it because a) they were doing the stretches incorrectly and b) workers in other departments who had started the program earlier were actually getting injured from them, but honestly, the real reason was because I just didn't feel like doing it, and just got the notion to NOT do it - no matter what. I was there to perform a job and make money, not toe the line with some executive fuckhead's shitty idea.

i don't think your complaint was totally ridiculous in this case. i probably wouldn't have found any issues with this, though. maybe would have attempted to talk to the executive fuckhead [sic!] first. i'm referring more to the "i'm going to do this really stupid thing that is completely irrational and absolutely nothing good will come of it and you can't stop me no matter what and there is absolutely no way to reason with me ever," sort of mentality. what if someone tried to calmly take you aside and talk to you about why you should do the shitty exercises and gave some good, solid reasons for doing so? i mean, i get the idea that usually when it happens it happens almost too quickly for someone to intervene. but if they were to do so?

[force my hand]

i don't think your complaint was totally ridiculous in this case. i probably wouldn't have found any issues with this, though. maybe would have attempted to talk to the executive fuckhead [sic!] first. i'm referring more to the "i'm going to do this really stupid thing that is completely irrational and absolutely nothing good will come of it and you can't stop me no matter what and there is absolutely no way to reason with me ever," sort of mentality. what if someone tried to calmly take you aside and talk to you about why you should do the shitty exercises and gave some good, solid reasons for doing so? i mean, i get the idea that usually when it happens it happens almost too quickly for someone to intervene. but if they were to do so?

When I get a dumb notion, someone would really have to work me to get me to change my mind. Implying that future 'promotions' might go south or harassing me about it ever fifteen minutes throughout the duration of my shift isn't going to work. What really got under my skin was when the lead-hand flat out agreed with me, but because he was on some company-spirit kick, he didn't raise his own objection. Doesn't matter if it's a good idea or not, just so long as everyone is flailing around like a retard, together, the world keeps on spinning.

I finally pulled the 'refusing unsafe work' card, which is pretty hilarious since by law they cannot ever hold it against me.

[Expat]

From some posts, and some PMs, it seems to me that some people are getting the wrong idea about what I was pointing out.

Those descriptions are not of healthy behavior of the types. They are about when you're being pathetic.

Intelligent, self-aware, healthy people will NOT identify with those descriptions as their NORMAL behavior.

Everyone's pathetic on occasion, but if you are being very frequently pathetic and disliked, due to behavior as described, it's because you're focusing way too much on your hidden agenda (or perhaps dual-seeking) -- or perhaps because it's an ego function and you're just dumb.

So, if you know your type, and you look at that list of descriptions, see your hidden agenda there and go "I never or almost never act like that!" then congratulations, you are an intelligent and healthy representative of your type.

(but again, I would expect everyone to over-focus on their hidden agenda on occasion, except perhaps without noticing it).

[Expat]

what about overdoing the role function? or personal knowledge even? personal knowledge isn't supposed to be inept, but if you are using it in support or defense of values very different from those of that function's home quadras, might that plausibly cause upset?

It's not about "causing upset". You may upset your supervisee, say, by using your 7th function. It's about behaving in such a way that makes people see that you're out of your depth in that function, and not even realize it. It's when people go .

Overdoing the role function would have a similar effect, although I think this is rarer since it's not a quadra value. On the other hand, Rick said that especially when in contact with your super-ego you may become more active in your role function. Which is fair enough.

[Expat]

i am thinking outloud. the id functions are something i don't understand well, as far as how they work in intertype relations.

My understanding is this:

- your 7th function: something you are strong/confident in but don't value, yet you take it seriously when you see it "misused". So you are likely to be annoyed by, and to annoy, those who value it but are unconfident in it (your conflictor, super-ego, supervisee, look-alike).

- your 8th function: something you are strong/confident in and don't value, and you don't really take seriously. So you do not annoy your dual with it (who has it as PoLR), much less expect your dual to use it or value it. You disappoint/annoy your conflictor and supervisor who do expect you to use it and to value it.

[Blaze]

Overdoing the role function would have a similar effect, although I think this is rarer since it's not a quadra value. On the other hand, Rick said that especially when in contact with your super-ego you may become more active in your role function. Which is fair enough.

you could add lookalike to superego i would think. except your lookalike can help you improve your role function somewhat, via creative function.

[Ezra]

: behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

This reminds me of how people used to see me when I first came to the forum. That's why everyone used to think I was an EIE.

[Suomea]

:Se: : behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

This reminds me of how people used to see me when I first came to the forum. That's why everyone used to think I was an EIE.

I was actually gonna write something on this.

[Ezra]

What, how people used to think I was like this, or a general comment about how people can look like they're faking?

In fact, I think some people still think my Se is pathetic. For example, I'm still not entirely convinced that Gilly thinks I'm an SLE. In fact, I'm not even convinced that I am.

[PotatoSpirit]

- your 7th function: something you are strong/confident in but don't value, yet you take it seriously when you see it "misused". So you are likely to be annoyed by, and to annoy, those who value it but are unconfident in it (your conflictor, super-ego, supervisee, look-alike).

I have very recently discovered that I can appreciate Te based conversations, I just don't naturally go that way.

- your 8th function: something you are strong/confident in and don't value, and you don't really take seriously. So you do not annoy your dual with it (who has it as PoLR), much less expect your dual to use it or value it. You disappoint/annoy your conflictor and supervisor who do expect you to use it and to value it.

This is totally true IME, especially with Si creative and HA. Not sure why it happens less with Si leading.
Has been said before, but I think you also protect your dual from people who use it, by actively going against it. I'm guessing it's part of the appeal of an illusionary relationship.

[Expat]

In fact, I think some people still think my Se is pathetic. For example, I'm still not entirely convinced that Gilly thinks I'm an SLE. In fact, I'm not even convinced that I am.

I think your Se is a bit "inhibited", and discussing such matters in Germany (not you in particular), it may be a consequence of having a LII (?) father and growing up in a household that generally disencourages the use of Se. You may be similar to a guy Rick described, a SLE "modest" in the active use of Se.

- your 7th function: something you are strong/confident in but don't value, yet you take it seriously when you see it "misused". So you are likely to be annoyed by, and to annoy, those who value it but are unconfident in it (your conflictor, super-ego, supervisee, look-alike).

I have very recently discovered that I can appreciate Te based conversations, I just don't naturally go that way.

But I think it's only if it is "Te with good Ti". I also liked Igor's Ti-based formulations, but while they are backed by "good Te". I think that "Te with bad Ti" would annoy you as much as "Ti with bad Te" annoys me.

- your 8th function: something you are strong/confident in and don't value, and you don't really take seriously. So you do not annoy your dual with it (who has it as PoLR), much less expect your dual to use it or value it. You disappoint/annoy your conflictor and supervisor who do expect you to use it and to value it.

This is totally true IME, especially with Si creative and HA. Not sure why it happens less with Si leading.
Has been said before, but I think you also protect your dual from people who use it, by actively going against it. I'm guessing it's part of the appeal of an illusionary relationship.

Yes, I agree on the "protecting your dual" bit. I must say, though, that illusionary can go either way. For instance, in things like "dressing like you're supposed to" my LSI friend can be quite annoying some times, because then the Si is "at the service" of his Ti structure. So it's not really Si that's his concern, it's Ti, but it's Si that makes me devalue it.

[Ezra]

I think your Se is a bit "inhibited", and discussing such matters in Germany (not you in particular), it may be a consequence of having a LII (?) father and growing up in a household that generally disencourages the use of Se. You may be similar to a guy Rick described, a SLE "modest" in the active use of Se.

I think my father is much more likely to be an EII or even an IEI than an LII. I can't really make a distinction between the IEI and the EII right now, as I don't understand them, so I don't know which one he might be.

My mother I think either values Se or is very good with it. She is adept in being able to get people to do things against their will. Also, as a (recreational, not professional) photographer, artist and art therapise, she's also very sensually attuned.

[Expat]

I think my father is much more likely to be an EII or even an IEI than an LII. I can't really make a distinction between the IEI and the EII right now, as I don't understand them, so I don't know which one he might be.

It makes no sense to be torn between EII and IEI for a person you know so well. Quasi-identicals are only superficially similar; a conversation on a subject of mutual interest is already enough to show the deep differences (like Rick smiling at me discussing historical typings with Igor).

My mother I think either values Se or is very good with it. She is adept in being able to get people to do things against their will. Also, as a (recreational, not professional) photographer, artist and art therapise, she's also very sensually attuned.

From a previous description, I think I said ESE.

Anyway, again, if you wish we can discuss your father's type with some depth. It should be easy to rule out EII or IEI.

[Expat]

unshakeable and stubborn unwillingness to compromise on personal behavior and principles against all opposition in a social situation

does this refer to my own personal behavior or others'?

I was thinking of your own, but it might also apply when you are so rigid in judging someone else's ethical behavior that everyone else goes "wtf?"

[reyn_til_runa]

unshakeable and stubborn unwillingness to compromise on personal behavior and principles against all opposition in a social situation

does this refer to my own personal behavior or others'?

I was thinking of your own, but it might also apply when you are so rigid in judging someone else's ethical behavior that everyone else goes "wtf?"

you say "ethical behavior" and i ask myself what you mean by ethical behavior. behavior is just patterns of objects to study, handle, etc. perhaps any apparent rigidness in evaluating behavior is a result of trying to see a situation clearly and handle it without bias. i've gotten the wtf reaction at times, generally (i think) because people are used to seeing me very laid back and almost too tolerant of a wide range of behavior. but if you are swimming in the ocean and there are no sharks in sight, you will most likely not be thinking about staying away from the shark or acting as if one is nearby. this would mean you'd never feel free to play in the ocean. but if you see a shark in your vicinity, you redefine your boundaries /priorities (in other words, get out of the ocean) because there is immediate danger. the shark's entry, like the behavior in question, is the turning point, that object that threatens the very life (of the relationship) or the validity (of the ocean) as you've come to understand it. the ocean represents "the way things always have been." so, i would say that much of this uncompromising judgment may result from an attack on boundaries, and then, a sudden need to detach in order to see the true nature of things.