Understanding Fi of EIIs-INFjs and the origins of their empathy

[UDP]

What do you mean by "properly express your feelings"? Can you give some examples of what you consider both properly and improperly expressed feelings? Preferably at least two of each. I want to understand what you're thinking here.

Hmm, the way you phrase that seems incorrect; I cannot give examples, because "properly" is not defined by me - it is defined by you. It is not a matter of me considering what is "proper" or not.

Another way to consider it is, "what do you need to feel like you've expressed things well enough?". What environment do you look for to feel comfortable, etc. What do you need from another person to feel like you can adequately (in your eyes) open up or discuss things with them, etc. What are you looking for?


And if you cannot answer these things, that's fine. I'm just trying to understand INFjs from their own minds and words - hear it from them. I don't necessarily expect there to be a concrete answer or "defined process" or "proper way" of doing things. I'm just asking questions.

[Minde]

Hmm, the way you phrase that seems incorrect; I cannot give examples, because "properly" is not defined by me - it is defined by you. It is not a matter of me considering what is "proper" or not.

Am I wrong, then, to have the feeling that you somewhat disapprove of the INFj's actions, or don't think it's the perfect or best way to behave, in this situation you mentioned? -

Like they are constantly waiting for other people's initiative. Just today, an INFj saw things as "a wall of silence" between it and someone else, when in fact there was minimal, extremely minimal, effort on its part to actually communicate and make contact with one person.

I don't want to misunderstand you, which is why I'm asking for clarification instead of just assuming.

What was the point of that example? What were you trying to say/ask?

[Blaze]

good thread. helps me understand my father a lot better.

minde, your response to UDP seems different than the others. i'm wondering why (not trying to imply anything either).

[Minde]

You mean asking for clarification? I don't know. *shrug* It's kind of my first response. I want to understand.

So I kind of wonder why my response is different, too.


BTW, I like that quote in your sig.

[munenori2]

So I kind of wonder why my response is different, too.

I would say that it's a good thing! Besides, I'm not sure that your post is all so different, more like the other side of the coin. On the one hand, you're seeking to understand. On the other, the rest of us were seeking to be understood.

BTW, I like that quote in your sig.

+1 Lewis sounds like a very smart person!

[UDP]

Am I wrong, then, to have the feeling that you somewhat disapprove of the INFj's actions, or don't think it's the perfect or best way to behave, in this situation you mentioned? -

I don't want to misunderstand you, which is why I'm asking for clarification instead of just assuming.

What was the point of that example? What were you trying to say/ask?

Are you referring to how INFjs should act in general? Or the example that you quoted, in post #15?

In general I am trying to understand INFjs.
In regard to the opening post - and that example involving the "wall of silence" quote.... There was a problem there, because the INFj in that example, (for whatever reason), was not expressive enough of her feelings, and, consequently, it had a negative impact for all involved. Or at least in that situation it did not benefit the INFj very much. I want to understand more about INFjs in general, but also, so I can understand why that happened, and if possible, how it can be prevented again in the future. I want to understand why INFjs - from their own words and thoughts - act the way they do.

I am not looking down on, or disapproving of, how they may act.

Does that make sense?



PS: I can see the question of "but how can you say 'was not expressive enough of her feelings' - how are you making that determination?".
To reply to that, well, I cannot say much because the specific example is talking about someone that I am not at liberty to discuss much about. So I will have to be vague.
Hm, let's look at that whole paragraph again:

It seems sometimes INFjs I know just.....expect.... things? Like they are constantly waiting for other people's initiative. Just today, an INFj saw things as "a wall of silence" between it and someone else, when in fact there was minimal, extremely minimal, effort on its part to actually communicate and make contact with one person.

The determination of not being expressive enough has to do with the trouble in that situation that would have been avoided if the INFj was more direct in stating how they felt about things. I understand that INFjs are that way, and I, maybe, understand why. Again, I am not "disapproving" of what they are doing, I am trying to understand the nature of how they interact.

I want to understand for my own interaction with INFjs, and also, when they deal with situations, what is influencing how they make decisions, so I can advise them better, or at least understand them better. Granted each person is different, but any insights or ideas may be helpful - thus me creating this thread. I'm looking for information so I can make the best decisions and give the best advice possible, about something I do not know a great deal about, and so I ask, and have made this thread.

That is why I said this:

Is this because it is so hard for INFjs to really express things? How do you really deal with things like this? What are you looking for? And what can people do - how can they act towards you - to make things go as smoothly and efficiently as possible? What do you need to be able to properly express your feelings towards other people?

so... does that make sense?

[Minde]

In regard to the opening post - and that example involving the "wall of silence" quote.... There was a problem there, because the INFj in that example, (for whatever reason), was not expressive enough of her feelings, and, consequently, it had a negative impact for all involved. Or at least in that situation it did not benefit the INFj very much. I want to understand more about INFjs in general, but also, so I can understand why that happened, and if possible, how it can be prevented again in the future. I want to understand why INFjs - from their own words and thoughts - act the way they do.

Ok, right there, where I bolded -

What, to you, constitutes expressing feelings? Perhaps saying "I feel..."? Spoken expression - is that what you mean by "expressing"?


This may seem like it should have a very obvious answer and you may be puzzled that I'm asking, but give it to me anyway. I want to make sure we're on the same page.



(I'd continue, because there's more to say and ask, but first I want you to answer this very important question. Please, no tangents. Just answer the question simply and directly. Focus.)

[UDP]

Ok, right there, where I bolded -

What, to you, constitutes expressing feelings? Perhaps saying "I feel..."? Spoken expression - is that what you mean by "expressing"?


This may seem like it should have a very obvious answer and you may be puzzled that I'm asking, but give it to me anyway. I want to make sure we're on the same page.



(I'd continue, because there's more to say and ask, but first I want you to answer this very important question. Please, no tangents. Just answer the question simply and directly. Focus.)

Forward: Focus? You make it sound like I am intentionally avoiding something. Now that you have a "focused" question of your own, I will answer it. The more focused your question, the more focused an answer you can get...


See, the problem is you are asking me what constitutes expressing feelings, but I am not the one in that situation. I will comment on the situation you are referring to first (1), and then talk about "myself" briefly, afterwards (2).


(1) In that situation, I do not know if feelings were verbally expressed for sure. I do not know the non-physical happenings either. What I know about the situation is that INFj did not express herself properly - as in, made sure she consistently revealed what she wanted in the relationship. She ultimately became disappointed because what she was feeling was not what the other person was feeling. Apparently it got to a point where she just flat out had to ask him or tell him, basically, but at this time - because there was not proper communication (whether it is because the INFj did not express things well, or the person receiving it did not get it / understand it, I honestly do not know) - the other person had already moved on to other things. So at some point there was a failure of communication, or proper emotional expression, or something. For whatever reason, the person involved was not fully aware of the INFjs feelings in the matter.


My question, or reason for this thread, has to do with both the "expression of" and the "receiving of" emotions, or relational indications, etc. For INFjs, what do you need to feel like you have expressed yourself properly? And what gets in the way of you feeling like you have done this? What environment promotes this the most? What are reasons why you would not do this? Or, even, tell about situations where you wanted to express more, but did not, and why.


(2) Now, as for "myself"....

What, to you, constitutes expressing feelings? Perhaps saying "I feel..."? Spoken expression - is that what you mean by "expressing"?

I like being very clear and having defined relationships with people, so I suppose there is a verbal aspect to that, but it is not totally essential. Actions are telling enough - who you spend your time with, how much preference they get over other people in how you react to their needs, etc. To me, people are "expressing" themselves all the time - every action you do, whether you are conscious of it or not, is indicative of things.

I particularly dislike it when people say "I love you" and do not mean it, or only mean it in very light levels. So "verbal" expression of things only has meanings if it is true, or sincere. I am quite serious about my relationship stance to others, and most people I know are not so much, so, I do not really expect people to go about the things I do.

Generally speaking, "actions speak louder than words", so, it is easy to tell what people value by how much they actually "do" for that thing. How much time spent, in particular, on the matter.

[Minde]

Forward: Focus? You make it sound like I am intentionally avoiding something. Now that you have a "focused" question of your own, I will answer it. The more focused your question, the more focused an answer you can get...

Occasionally you don't answer my questions. Or, more likely, you'll answer most or part of my question(s) but not the part that I really wanted answered or thought it important to answer.

And when I say "focus" I mean I don't want |----------------------------------------------------|, I want |-----|. Summarize. Make every word count for twenty normal ones. Thesis sentence, not dissertation. If and when I need clarification on a word then you give me the twenty it stands for (so to speak).

Going off on a million tangents is something I find myself doing, but I don't always like in other people, especially when I'm trying to figure something out. I know; I'm a hypocrite.


You did go off on a couple of tangents, but that's ok this time because they'll help to answer other questions I had. (2) was what I was looking for, by the way, particularly the first paragraph.



From what you describe, I think I know exactly what type of "wall of silence" (there are a few different types) that was. I'm pretty sure I've been in similar situations, though only maybe a couple times in such a, hm, "big" way.

I hide my feelings on purpose. Showing them makes me vulnerable, deep ones especially.

Kristiina described once how her INFj friend looks at her with amazed admiration when she openly expresses her deeply passionate feelings (or something like that - correct me if I'm wrong, Kristiina). I can relate to INFj's point of view. The amazement is because it's such a surprise - I wouldn't dream of doing something similar. And the admiration is for how the person expressing those feelings doesn't seem to have fear.

It seems to me that in the situation you describe the INFj didn't fully trust (for whatever reason) the other person. It doesn't mean the other person wasn't trustworthy, only that point didn't get reached in time.

For my part, I can like or be attracted to someone, but be afraid of them. The more fear, the less trust, and the less I'll let that person see what's really going on in me (though some things may still be apparent, more than I'd wish).

Unless I suddenly stop caring about them. Or momentarily lose my fear. Or feel desperate. But those instances cannot always be predicted.



Before I go further, is this what you meant/were asking?


If I'm understanding you right, then a lighter example of what you describe is perhaps where some co-workers and I are on a lunch break and the topic of discussion is, say, taste in music. If the people there are ones that I do not already feel close to or feel like I can trust, if I think there's a chance they'll disapprove or whatever, then I'll likely just keep my preferences to myself and participate in other ways. In contrast, I'd be much more open with what I really like with someone like, say, my brother or close friend.

Different context, but same operating principle, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Blaze]

You mean asking for clarification? I don't know. *shrug* It's kind of my first response. I want to understand.

So I kind of wonder why my response is different, too.


BTW, I like that quote in your sig.

thanks. this quote helped me to be saved.

perhaps your search for understanding is only the other side of the coin of being understood. infp's also seek understanding first. not that you seem to be an infp. just interesting i guess.

[UDP]

Occasionally you don't answer my questions. Or, more likely, you'll answer most or part of my question(s) but not the part that I really wanted answered or thought it important to answer.

And when I say "focus" I mean I don't want |----------------------------------------------------|, I want |-----|. Summarize. Make every word count for twenty normal ones. Thesis sentence, not dissertation. If and when I need clarification on a word then you give me the twenty it stands for (so to speak).

Going off on a million tangents is something I find myself doing, but I don't always like in other people, especially when I'm trying to figure something out. I know; I'm a hypocrite.


You did go off on a couple of tangents, but that's ok this time because they'll help to answer other questions I had. (2) was what I was looking for, by the way, particularly the first paragraph.

...Minde, just keep in mind I am not one of your students.

From what you describe, I think I know exactly what type of "wall of silence" (there are a few different types) that was. I'm pretty sure I've been in similar situations, though only maybe a couple times in such a, hm, "big" way.

I hide my feelings on purpose. Showing them makes me vulnerable, deep ones especially.

Kristiina described once how her INFj friend looks at her with amazed admiration when she openly expresses her deeply passionate feelings (or something like that - correct me if I'm wrong, Kristiina). I can relate to INFj's point of view. The amazement is because it's such a surprise - I wouldn't dream of doing something similar. And the admiration is for how the person expressing those feelings doesn't seem to have fear.

Yes, that is a very clear difference between the XNFjs.

It seems to me that in the situation you describe the INFj didn't fully trust (for whatever reason) the other person. It doesn't mean the other person wasn't trustworthy, only that point didn't get reached in time.

From what I understand, yes.
Hm, perhaps it could be considered something to the effect of.... "expressing feelings" is more an end result, once trust is earned, rather than anything that would "lead into" or "entice" relationship development? I suppose that makes sense in terms of, for example, beta victims, as opposed to delta infantiles. Victims would use emotions to entice, where as infantiles would not so much, perhaps not in the same way.

For my part, I can like or be attracted to someone, but be afraid of them. The more fear, the less trust, and the less I'll let that person see what's really going on in me (though some things may still be apparent, more than I'd wish).

Unless I suddenly stop caring about them. Or momentarily lose my fear. Or feel desperate. But those instances cannot always be predicted.



Before I go further, is this what you meant/were asking?

Pretty much so, yes.

If I'm understanding you right, then a lighter example of what you describe is perhaps where some co-workers and I are on a lunch break and the topic of discussion is, say, taste in music. If the people there are ones that I do not already feel close to or feel like I can trust, if I think there's a chance they'll disapprove or whatever, then I'll likely just keep my preferences to myself and participate in other ways. In contrast, I'd be much more open with what I really like with someone like, say, my brother or close friend.

Different context, but same operating principle, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That makes sense.

I suppose another question would be, in this analogy, what really leads up to that feeling that you are close enough to express your likings.

Also, would you say it is critical to get to the point where you go past "If I think there's a chance they'll disapprove", in order to share your preferences? So, knowing that there will be positive reception of such an expression is important, yes?

[tereg]

I'd like to answer some of this, and I hope I'm not butting in too much by doing this.

I hide my feelings on purpose. Showing them makes me vulnerable, deep ones especially.
...
It seems to me that in the situation you describe the INFj didn't fully trust (for whatever reason) the other person. It doesn't mean the other person wasn't trustworthy, only that point didn't get reached in time.

This is spot on for me as well. I think when I take an honest look at myself, I would have to say that I fear being vulnerable to people because deep down I sometimes don't know what they will do with my trust. Will they scoff? Betray? Accept? Embrace? And withholding emotions and withholding engagement is, I guess in my mind, how to deal with that unknown. Other logic says that if you don't know something, ask. But for me, it's honestly often the case, if I don't know something, I need more time to think about the ramifications of asking because I don't know how a person will react at the moment if I ask.

It's about being confident enough of how a person will respond. Again, I go back to comfort level and a comfortable atmosphere. These are intertwined for me.

From what I understand, yes.
Hm, perhaps it could be considered something to the effect of.... "expressing feelings" is more an end result, once trust is earned, rather than anything that would "lead into" or "entice" relationship development? I suppose that makes sense in terms of, for example, beta victims, as opposed to delta infantiles. Victims would use emotions to entice, where as infantiles would not so much, perhaps not in the same way.

Yeah, I can think about specific incidents in my life that will illustrate and contrast this concept. There have been times where I noticed that my unresponsiveness enticed people to start to ask what's wrong. But the difference here is that even when they ask "What's wrong?" I still don't feel comfortable enough to respond yet. (Would it be the case for a beta victim to then outwardly respond and "change" when they are asked this question?) See, for me even though I start to get a worried vibe from other people and they want to know what's wrong, that doesn't make me feel any more comfortable to explain myself. In fact, I feel worse because I have now directly caused other people to worry about me which is not acceptable for me.

If I'm understanding you right, then a lighter example of what you describe is perhaps where some co-workers and I are on a lunch break and the topic of discussion is, say, taste in music. If the people there are ones that I do not already feel close to or feel like I can trust, if I think there's a chance they'll disapprove or whatever, then I'll likely just keep my preferences to myself and participate in other ways. In contrast, I'd be much more open with what I really like with someone like, say, my brother or close friend.

Different context, but same operating principle, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That makes sense.

I suppose another question would be, in this analogy, what really leads up to that feeling that you are close enough to express your likings.

Also, would you say it is critical to get to the point where you go past "If I think there's a chance they'll disapprove", in order to share your preferences? So, knowing that there will be positive reception of such an expression is important, yes?

From my point of view, the driving force that leads to a comfort level with a person is along the lines of what Sereno had added. It's the non-verbal body language of a person when I'm in their midst. I can tell when someone is irritated when I enter the room. I can tell when a person doesn't like talking to me. I can tell when maybe I'm expressing something to a third person, and the person responds in some way that makes me uncomfortable. There are other examples, but for me it basically just comes down to, are you comfortable being around me, do you like what I have to say, and do you enjoy my company in normal social situations? There are exceptions to this: I might like someone but don't feel comfortable expressing myself. And I think that happens because I'm interested in what they have to say but I don't get the same vibe when I share my ideas.

I would say getting past the "If there's a chance I think they'll disapprove" is important to me. And at its core I have seen it to be a fundamental trust issue with things that I have no control over. Can I trust you with this idea or thought that once I say it, I cannot control? If the answer is "I don't know what they're going to say/do" then I hold it some more until I do know.

[Minde]

...Minde, just keep in mind I am not one of your students.

I'm telling you what I'd prefer. You, of course, are free to oblige or not.

Hm, perhaps it could be considered something to the effect of.... "expressing feelings" is more an end result, once trust is earned, rather than anything that would "lead into" or "entice" relationship development? I suppose that makes sense in terms of, for example, beta victims, as opposed to delta infantiles. Victims would use emotions to entice, where as infantiles would not so much, perhaps not in the same way.

"End result"... Yes, I suppose so. In a way, I guess. Dunno about victims... just speaking for myself.

I suppose another question would be, in this analogy, what really leads up to that feeling that you are close enough to express your likings.

Also, would you say it is critical to get to the point where you go past "If I think there's a chance they'll disapprove", in order to share your preferences? So, knowing that there will be positive reception of such an expression is important, yes?

Yes, knowing there will be a positive reception is huge. That's why I can say whatever I feel like to my brother or close friend. I know they'll love me no matter what I say, big or little.

I consider myself such an odd little person that it takes me by surprise when people (not counting family, of course) genuinely like all of me, no matter what I show them. When people do that it's really very disarming.

I'd like to answer some of this, and I hope I'm not butting in too much by doing this.

Not at all. Your input is valuable.

This is spot on for me as well. I think when I take an honest look at myself, I would have to say that I fear being vulnerable to people because deep down I sometimes don't know what they will do with my trust. Will they scoff? Betray? Accept? Embrace? And withholding emotions and withholding engagement is, I guess in my mind, how to deal with that unknown. Other logic says that if you don't know something, ask. But for me, it's honestly often the case, if I don't know something, I need more time to think about the ramifications of asking because I don't know how a person will react at the moment if I ask.

It's about being confident enough of how a person will respond. Again, I go back to comfort level and a comfortable atmosphere. These are intertwined for me.

Yes.

Yeah, I can think about specific incidents in my life that will illustrate and contrast this concept. There have been times where I noticed that my unresponsiveness enticed people to start to ask what's wrong. But the difference here is that even when they ask "What's wrong?" I still don't feel comfortable enough to respond yet. (Would it be the case for a beta victim to then outwardly respond and "change" when they are asked this question?) See, for me even though I start to get a worried vibe from other people and they want to know what's wrong, that doesn't make me feel any more comfortable to explain myself. In fact, I feel worse because I have now directly caused other people to worry about me which is not acceptable for me.

See, I'm not that selfless - to be sad that other people are worried about me. I mean, it's not a good thing, but unless the person means a lot to me it's not going to bother me much. Sensing worry from someone, directed at me, would more likely make me worried in turn about what they might try to do to/for me that I might not really want, as opposed to be empathetically sad for their sakes. In that situation I just freeze up, often because I haven't yet formulated how to express myself. So I go to the default "Nothing, I'm fine" to deflect attention until I can figure out what I really want and if I want it badly enough to risk whatever there is to risk. However, usually by the time I get things nicely resolved in my head, found that perfect balance, everybody's gone home and the point is moot.

(By the way, that paragraph above is really very convoluted, so I don't expect much sense to be made of it. Way to detailed and analytical...)

From my point of view, the driving force that leads to a comfort level with a person is along the lines of what Sereno had added. It's the non-verbal body language of a person when I'm in their midst. I can tell when someone is irritated when I enter the room. I can tell when a person doesn't like talking to me. I can tell when maybe I'm expressing something to a third person, and the person responds in some way that makes me uncomfortable. There are other examples, but for me it basically just comes down to, are you comfortable being around me, do you like what I have to say, and do you enjoy my company in normal social situations? There are exceptions to this: I might like someone but don't feel comfortable expressing myself. And I think that happens because I'm interested in what they have to say but I don't get the same vibe when I share my ideas.

I would say getting past the "If there's a chance I think they'll disapprove" is important to me. And at its core I have seen it to be a fundamental trust issue with things that I have no control over. Can I trust you with this idea or thought that once I say it, I cannot control? If the answer is "I don't know what they're going to say/do" then I hold it some more until I do know.

For me it's not always so much body language and all that (though, it can be, I suppose, at times and with right people), but if they've already expressed approval of me.

I'll "test the waters" with people, giving out bits of my opinions and self to see how they react to it. If it's favorable, then I'll feel better about continuing.


Something else, another oddity, perhaps - If I'm brusque or unusually open with someone it's either because I trust them a lot and know they won't really mind (or that it won't permanently damage the relationship), or because I (temporarily) don't care what they feel about me, or because there's something more important going on than feelings and vulnerability, like a flood or burnt toast.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I can tell when someone is irritated when I enter the room. I can tell when a person doesn't like talking to me. I can tell when maybe I'm expressing something to a third person, and the person responds in some way that makes me uncomfortable.

*Nods* It's how your greatest strengths manifest into your greatest weaknesses. By doing all that you're also open to people thinking you're weak, timid and mousy/can't stand up for yourself. As well as mean ESTp-jock boys saying 'Man that dude really could throw a football around sometimes.' You're just too insightful for your own good... you won't do anything offensive, because you already know what's offensive a little too well....so yeah.

[tereg]

I consider myself such an odd little person that it takes me by surprise when people (not counting family, of course) genuinely like all of me, no matter what I show them. When people do that it's really very disarming.

There is a phrase that hits my core like none other, and I have a hunch that you might agree. When I hear someone say to me, "I love you and I like you just the way you are." mm. ....... Whenever I hear a voice that I know accepts me for who I am, it hits a very tender spot in me. So, I relate to what you said very much, especially in moments like that. Be it from Christ or Mr. Rogers or a devoted friend. It is disarming and surprising.

Yeah, I can think about specific incidents in my life that will illustrate and contrast this concept. There have been times where I noticed that my unresponsiveness enticed people to start to ask what's wrong. But the difference here is that even when they ask "What's wrong?" I still don't feel comfortable enough to respond yet. (Would it be the case for a beta victim to then outwardly respond and "change" when they are asked this question?) See, for me even though I start to get a worried vibe from other people and they want to know what's wrong, that doesn't make me feel any more comfortable to explain myself. In fact, I feel worse because I have now directly caused other people to worry about me which is not acceptable for me.

See, I'm not that selfless - to be sad that other people are worried about me. I mean, it's not a good thing, but unless the person means a lot to me it's not going to bother me much. Sensing worry from someone, directed at me, would more likely make me worried in turn about what they might try to do to/for me that I might not really want, as opposed to be empathetically sad for their sakes. In that situation I just freeze up, often because I haven't yet formulated how to express myself. So I go to the default "Nothing, I'm fine" to deflect attention until I can figure out what I really want and if I want it badly enough to risk whatever there is to risk. However, usually by the time I get things nicely resolved in my head, found that perfect balance, everybody's gone home and the point is moot.

(By the way, that paragraph above is really very convoluted, so I don't expect much sense to be made of it. Way to detailed and analytical...)

I saw this and I realized that I was speaking too generally. I'll expand on what I said when it comes to people I already feel comfortable with. When someone I feel comfortable with asks me "What's wrong?", I might still not be able to answer the question immediately as before. But if I do sense worry from them, it does feel different to me because I know that they know that I will be forthright when the time is right. It's almost like I know they are being patient with me and it's almost like I can sense that they trust that I will share it with them.


I hadn't concretely thought of the second bit until you said it. And when I put myself in those situations in those terms, like if the people are more proactive in trying to get me to talk, that does worry me. That would, indeed cause a great deal of discomfort in me and would cause me to withdraw even more. Fortunately, I haven't been in a situation where someone prodded me so much that it caused me to get to that point. There always seemed to be a letting off the accelerator at some moment, but I was still always aware that any further prodding would indeed make drive me further away.

For me it's not always so much body language and all that (though, it can be, I suppose, at times and with right people), but if they've already expressed approval of me.

I'll "test the waters" with people, giving out bits of my opinions and self to see how they react to it. If it's favorable, then I'll feel better about continuing.

Something else, another oddity, perhaps - If I'm brusque or unusually open with someone it's either because I trust them a lot and know they won't really mind (or that it won't permanently damage the relationship), or because I (temporarily) don't care what they feel about me, or because there's something more important going on than feelings and vulnerability, like a flood or burnt toast.

Before I start, I don't want it to sound like I'm being wishy-washy and shifting my position. If anything it expands and strenthens my understanding of it. I think what you said here describes this much better than I did. I did emphasize body language, but it doesn't sound as full now and what you said makes more sense now that I actually see it written out. And it's not that you did anything negative by saying it... how you said it just resonates better. When I said

It's about being confident enough of how a person will respond. Again, I go back to comfort level and a comfortable atmosphere. These are intertwined for me.

I think inherent in that is a knowledge of how a person will respond to things I say. I didn't make the connection in writing, but you did.

I do the same kind of small testing. I'd also add that sometimes once is enough for me to get the answer I need.

The stuff that I do in my video blogs, I would only act out those kinds of things (imo very open things) in front of people I'm really comfortable with. Like, for instance, if someone wants me to do my Matt Foley impersonation (which is a really loud, physical comedic act, and not part of what I do in my video blogs, but it's the same idea), I like doing the impression when nobody's around or only with people that I'm comfortable with. Other times I won't because the atmospheric makeup isn't right.

I really appreciate your insight on this, Minde. It really does help me to clarify what I often toss around in my head. It gives me a more concrete understanding of it and actually puts into words a lot of what I do feel but can't quite express.

[cracka]

Be it from Mr. Rogers

Awesome, I remember he used to say that on his show all the time.

[tereg]

See, I didn't grow up watching Mr. Rogers. I mean, I would on occasion, but I was too young to really "get" the message of that same feeling that I am about to describe. I started to look at his life after he passed away, and what I quickly realized was that what he represented and stood for resonates in me in such a profound way that I didn't seem to catch before.

I can't watch this video all the way through without crying. And I think it perfectly represents things that other people do and say that really comforts me in a way that words can't express at the moment.



This is another video that does the same thing, but it's more like a "That's awesome" kind of feeling when I watch it.

[Lobo]

*Nods* It's how your greatest strengths manifest into your greatest weaknesses. By doing all that you're also open to people thinking you're weak, timid and mousy/can't stand up for yourself. As well as mean ESTp-jock boys saying 'Man that dude really could throw a football around sometimes.' You're just too insightful for your own good... you won't do anything offensive, because you already know what's offensive a little too well....so yeah.

Ah yes, you are in the right. It's frustrating how people think the you are timid, lacking initiative and all that, when you really are more aware of the negative consequences of things and try to avoid them. But, people change with time, and they mature. It got to a point for me where I started to think too much about things, and then I said to myself "why are you doing all this?" It was then that I began to practice doing things without thinking, and then feeling free to tell people to go fuck themselves. Yes, that is very liberating...

[Christy B]

It got to a point for me where I started to think too much about things, and then I said to myself "why are you doing all this?" It was then that I began to practice doing things without thinking, and then feeling free to tell people to go fuck themselves. Yes, that is very liberating...

!!!! Sweet !!!!

[UDP]

I'm telling you what I'd prefer. You, of course, are free to oblige or not.

For the record, I actually don't mind that. Knowing what you want helps me give it to you.

Not at all. Your input is valuable.

Yeah, tereg. I personally am gaining a lot from this thread.

[UDP]

Yeah, Mr Rogers is a legendary human being.

[Sponyonye]

My God. I'm an ENFp, or at least I USED to be one. I was certain I was an ENFp, but you guys have been portraying these concepts I had in my mind so well... Is it possible to be an ENFp, but to have learned to be an INFj in social situations? Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. I relate to ENFp so well except for in social areas.

I thought I was an extrovert because with certain people, I can talk to them for days on end. But I have the difficulties with 'people I'm not comfortable with,' like you guys mentioned. I can often feel how they will respond to what I say, and I am selective with the topics I mention with each individual person, knowing their interests and our common ground.

I almost feel like I have to grow out of these tendencies, too. Like they're bothersome, and 'not me,' and I'll finally be liberated when I do. I've done a ridiculous amount of analyzing to find the 'core problems' around my feelings and actions, and a lot of times once I figure it out the problem disappears.

I think my mind is stuck between ENFp and INFj in social matters. Ummm, is this possible?

EDIT: I may have 'learned' to be an introvert due to my social anxiety when I was younger. Also, both of my parents are shy. I must be an extrovert, because I hate being alone, doing activities alone, and when other people tell me they need to be alone I can't understand why.

This brings something up. Can you learn to be another type?

[tereg]

My God. I'm an ENFp, or at least I USED to be one. I was certain I was an ENFp, but you guys have been portraying these concepts I had in my mind so well... Is it possible to be an ENFp, but to have learned to be an INFj in social situations? Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. I relate to ENFp so well except for in social areas.

I thought I was an extrovert because with certain people, I can talk to them for days on end. But I have the difficulties with 'people I'm not comfortable with,' like you guys mentioned. I can often feel how they will respond to what I say, and I am selective with the topics I mention with each individual person, knowing their interests and our common ground.

I almost feel like I have to grow out of these tendencies, too. Like they're bothersome, and 'not me,' and I'll finally be liberated when I do. I've done a ridiculous amount of analyzing to find the 'core problems' around my feelings and actions, and a lot of times once I figure it out the problem disappears.

I think my mind is stuck between ENFp and INFj in social matters. Ummm, is this possible?

Wow. This all sounds like me. This is all stuff I'd say. Edit: or at least say to myself in impulsion

I've been saying the bold part to myself for years. Liberation is such a powerful, attractive word to me.

[cracka]

Sponyonye, how would a person say this username?

[Minde]

I like being me.

I mean, there are times when I hate myself (usually for a mistake or when something goes wrong), but... I dunno. I'm fine being me. I even enjoy it.

It probably helps knowing my purpose.

Anyway...

My God. I'm an ENFp, or at least I USED to be one. I was certain I was an ENFp, but you guys have been portraying these concepts I had in my mind so well... Is it possible to be an ENFp, but to have learned to be an INFj in social situations? Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. I relate to ENFp so well except for in social areas.

Since socionics is all about how people interact with each other, you might want to focus on that to help determine your type as opposed to how you feel just when you're by yourself. Just a suggestion.

Also, keep in mind that ENFps and INFjs are mirrors (or whatever the term is now), so they're going to be similar in many ways, including how they view and approach people, I'd think.

I thought I was an extrovert because with certain people, I can talk to them for days on end. But I have the difficulties with 'people I'm not comfortable with,' like you guys mentioned. I can often feel how they will respond to what I say, and I am selective with the topics I mention with each individual person, knowing their interests and our common ground.

I almost feel like I have to grow out of these tendencies, too. Like they're bothersome, and 'not me,' and I'll finally be liberated when I do. I've done a ridiculous amount of analyzing to find the 'core problems' around my feelings and actions, and a lot of times once I figure it out the problem disappears.

I think my mind is stuck between ENFp and INFj in social matters. Ummm, is this possible?

EDIT: I may have 'learned' to be an introvert due to my social anxiety when I was younger. Also, both of my parents are shy. I must be an extrovert, because I hate being alone, doing activities alone, and when other people tell me they need to be alone I can't understand why.

"Introversion" and "extroversion" do not necessarily mean "quiet" and "talkative" (respectively) in socionics. Instead of thinking in terms of "do I talk a lot or not?" try thinking of when you talk a lot, what you find yourself talking about, and perhaps to what type of people you find yourself talking a lot to.

This brings something up. Can you learn to be another type?

Some would say "yes." Others would say "no." Sometimes they even argue about it. I'll let you decide for yourself.

[Lobo]

I like being me.
Also, keep in mind that ENFps and INFjs are mirrors (or whatever the term is now), so they're going to be similar in many ways, including how they view and approach people, I'd think.

I do think that there is general agreement between INFjs and ENFps on the more deep-down-serious issues, if that makes sense. The way I look at it, which might be a wrong way to do, using "extraversion" and "introversion" as commonly understood by the general public, is that ENFps are the extraverted versions of INFjs and vice-versa. ENFps tend to do the things that I would like to be able to do, and so "openly" about it, which is what I get as being "extraverted." Case in point: I was in a friend reunion and this ENFp there would act so warm towards the people there in a genuine way, and embrace people that he hadn't even met before. And, it wasn't in an Fe way. It really can bother not being able to show physical affection that way...


I am basing the above also on my impression of ISTps and ESTjs. I look at ISTps as an introverted version of ESTjs, without all the misunderstanding. I know that it probably goes against some socionic concepts though, but that's my impression. I have this poorly proven theory as yet that consists in that understanding your activity partner makes it easier to understand your dual partner...

Sponyonye, how would a person say this username?

lol... maybe, SPUN-YUN-YEH.

[Christy B]

I have this poorly proven theory as yet that consists in that understanding your activity partner makes it easier to understand your dual partner...

Yes, I think there is something to this. Understanding my activity partner has helped with dual. I have noticed similarities between LSE-Si and SLI-Si, and LSE-Te and SLI-Te. Sometimes subtype feels so strong I am not sure at first which one is which.

[BlackTigress]

Yes, knowing there will be a positive reception is huge. That's why I can say whatever I feel like to my brother or close friend. I know they'll love me no matter what I say, big or little.

I consider myself such an odd little person that it takes me by surprise when people (not counting family, of course) genuinely like all of me, no matter what I show them. When people do that it's really very disarming.

I strongly agree. Being accepted for who I am is extremely important to me. However, because my thoughts, opinions, tastes etc. are so different from everyone else, I hardly ever feel accepted. And when it does actually happen, it catches me off guard; I don't have much practice with being able to truly be myself, and it takes some time to recompose myself. Unfortunately, some people get discouraged at having given me an opportunity to be myself and have to wait even longer for me to actually do it, and that sometimes makes them not bother trying it again.

One thing that is key in getting me to open up is to not judge me and what I say and feel. It has a lot to do with being accepted. I know very well that there are going to be things where me and another person disagree about, but having that person openly degrade me and/or my thoughts/feelings is pretty much a slap to the face. The pain that comes from rejection is exponentially greater to me than the pain of being misunderstood because I keep to myself.

I like it when people take my thoughts and feelings and consider them to be another way of looking at things rather than the wrong way. Ideally, they would instead say something neutral about what I have to say, with bonus points for them if they take my thoughts/feelings seriously and try to expand on it (expanding on it doesn't mean that they have to agree with it). However, being neutral too much can backfire, as it leads me to think you don't really care about what I have to say, so I'll progressively say less and less if this happens. Sincerity also counts for a lot; if I sense you're being false to me in any way, I'll probably refuse to go any farther until you come to me and tell me you weren't being true to me (it's possible I'll initiate that confrontation myself, but don't count on it).

My thoughts and feelings are one of my greatest treasures, so naturally I'm going to guard them with a great deal of strength. But I am not selfish by wanting to keep them to myself, indeed it is quite the opposite. I'd love to be able to open up to others, but either they aren't worth my trust or they aren't willing to give me time to feel comfortable enough to open up. The thing about sharing thoughts and feelings is that once you do it, you are at the mercy of the person you shared with; once you open yourself up, you can't force them to forget what you expressed to them if they prove they can't be trusted.

[tereg]

I strongly agree. Being accepted for who I am is extremely important to me. However, because my thoughts, opinions, tastes etc. are so different from everyone else, I hardly ever feel accepted. And when it does actually happen, it catches me off guard; I don't have much practice with being able to truly be myself, and it takes some time to recompose myself. Unfortunately, some people get discouraged at having given me an opportunity to be myself and have to wait even longer for me to actually do it, and that sometimes makes them not bother trying it again.

One thing that is key in getting me to open up is to not judge me and what I say and feel. It has a lot to do with being accepted. I know very well that there are going to be things where me and another person disagree about, but having that person openly degrade me and/or my thoughts/feelings is pretty much a slap to the face. The pain that comes from rejection is exponentially greater to me than the pain of being misunderstood because I keep to myself.

I like it when people take my thoughts and feelings and consider them to be another way of looking at things rather than the wrong way. Ideally, they would instead say something neutral about what I have to say, with bonus points for them if they take my thoughts/feelings seriously and try to expand on it (expanding on it doesn't mean that they have to agree with it). However, being neutral too much can backfire, as it leads me to think you don't really care about what I have to say, so I'll progressively say less and less if this happens. Sincerity also counts for a lot; if I sense you're being false to me in any way, I'll probably refuse to go any farther until you come to me and tell me you weren't being true to me (it's possible I'll initiate that confrontation myself, but don't count on it).

My thoughts and feelings are one of my greatest treasures, so naturally I'm going to guard them with a great deal of strength. But I am not selfish by wanting to keep them to myself, indeed it is quite the opposite. I'd love to be able to open up to others, but either they aren't worth my trust or they aren't willing to give me time to feel comfortable enough to open up. The thing about sharing thoughts and feelings is that once you do it, you are at the mercy of the person you shared with; once you open yourself up, you can't force them to forget what you expressed to them if they prove they can't be trusted.

I really resonate with this whole thing. I don't think I could have expressed this better than this was.

Bolded parts hit me in the most significant way.

I'd like to add that for me, this reminded me of this seemingly significant disconnect between who I am when nobody's around and when people are around. It bothers me that I can feel "looser" when I'm alone and I can't access that when people are around and I'm suddenly on the spot and feel different. I think that when I appear uncomfortable around people, part of that is this feeling that I'm unable to loosen up like I know I'm able to; that I feel like I'm just putting on a show that doesn't feel genuine. But another significant portion that is happening at the same time is the feeling that I don't know how people will respond or if they'll accept the looseness or if they'll suddenly think that I'm putting on a show and being disingenuousbecause I appear more subdued most of the time.

It's about trust. "Can I let go and just be me?" is the question that I'm constantly having to ask myself. At times, I can let go a little bit, but it's challenging to sustain it without constantly consciously thinking about it and choosing to let go. And that's why I say that it doesn't come naturally to me, I have to force myself to let go to be able to do it. It's a very frustrating and sometimes tiring mental thought process.

[munenori2]

I do think that there is general agreement between INFjs and ENFps on the more deep-down-serious issues, if that makes sense. The way I look at it, which might be a wrong way to do, using "extraversion" and "introversion" as commonly understood by the general public, is that ENFps are the extraverted versions of INFjs and vice-versa. ENFps tend to do the things that I would like to be able to do, and so "openly" about it, which is what I get as being "extraverted." Case in point: I was in a friend reunion and this ENFp there would act so warm towards the people there in a genuine way, and embrace people that he hadn't even met before. And, it wasn't in an Fe way. It really can bother not being able to show physical affection that way...

This matches my experience superlatively.

[BlackTigress]

I'd like to add just a bit more.

Oftentimes people will ask me a simple question, like "How are you?" or "How was your weekend?" At least, in theory those questions are simple, but more often than not they are quite loaded to me. When people ask me this type of question, hundreds of things are going on in my mind. I want to answer them truthfully and completely, but I can't do that without telling them everything that is on my mind. They want a very brief response from me, but often I can't really sum up all my feelings into just one or two sentences. It bothers me a lot that I can't be completely honest with them because to them I'd be giving them too much information, which would make them bored and/or annoyed with me. It's one of those times where their definition of how you are at a given time is far simpler than it is to me.

And that's assuming I'm even able to put all my thoughts and feelings into words, which very rarely happens. Sometimes someone will ask me a question that would normally be simple, but due to my complicated thought process, I don't have an answer at all because I haven't sorted through all my thoughts and feelings, so I am forced to make something up or give them an answer they were expecting (even though that answer is usually something that I don't feel, but it's not like I can just not say anything or take too long in answering, because that's plain rude). When I am forced to make something up like that, again it bothers me, because I value honesty and being true to myself; I really don't like lying to people, but often I find myself having no real other choice. I suppose I'm saying that I really suck at small talk, which is rather unfortunate for me since that's what a lot of people seem to enjoy.

Some people actually catch the hint that I don't like small talk, but as most of them think that small talk is normal and therefore anything else isn't, they think I'm snobbish or antisocial or something. I so want to tell them that I'm not, but first impressions are often the hardest to change.

[UDP]

(I wrote this before Black Tigress's last post, ftr, but apparently it did not get sent, just to be chronologically accurate)


Mmm... a lot of the talk here about being judged, etc, reminds me of something an Ne-EII was talking about recently: basically, she was explaining a situation where there was a mishap, and she was yelled at by someone for "being a terrible person"...

She was zoning out, standing looking out a glass window/door, and apparently a person with a disability was trying to get inside the building. She was unaware of this person until someone else came over and opened up the door, and of course seeing this she then helped him in, too. Later, the person said she was a horrible person because she was just standing there, watching this person struggle - according to him. But it was a misinterpretation on his part, the EII was just zoning out. So the EII felt bad about that, she didn't like being called a terrible person or being yelled at.

Then she went home and told a relative about this story, who was an Fe dominant, and interpreted her reaction as being scholded. From my understanding of the situation, the Fe dominant was commenting on the "badness" of not helping a disabled person. But this bothered the EII even more because she was expressing her story, and got "judged".


Hm, I'm trying to come up with a way to talk about how my ISFp friend uses Fe, but give me a moment.

[tereg]

I'd like to add just a bit more.

Oftentimes people will ask me a simple question, like "How are you?" or "How was your weekend?" At least, in theory those questions are simple, but more often than not they are quite loaded to me. When people ask me this type of question, hundreds of things are going on in my mind. I want to answer them truthfully and completely, but I can't do that without telling them everything that is on my mind. They want a very brief response from me, but often I can't really sum up all my feelings into just one or two sentences. It bothers me a lot that I can't be completely honest with them because to them I'd be giving them too much information, which would make them bored and/or annoyed with me. It's one of those times where their definition of how you are at a given time is far simpler than it is to me.

And that's assuming I'm even able to put all my thoughts and feelings into words, which very rarely happens. Sometimes someone will ask me a question that would normally be simple, but due to my complicated thought process, I don't have an answer at all because I haven't sorted through all my thoughts and feelings, so I am forced to make something up or give them an answer they were expecting (even though that answer is usually something that I don't feel, but it's not like I can just not say anything or take too long in answering, because that's plain rude). When I am forced to make something up like that, again it bothers me, because I value honesty and being true to myself; I really don't like lying to people, but often I find myself having no real other choice. I suppose I'm saying that I really suck at small talk, which is rather unfortunate for me since that's what a lot of people seem to enjoy.

Some people actually catch the hint that I don't like small talk, but as most of them think that small talk is normal and therefore anything else isn't, they think I'm snobbish or antisocial or something. I so want to tell them that I'm not, but first impressions are often the hardest to change.

Holy crap. Are you my twin or something? I feel like I'm reading my own posts!

[tereg]

(I wrote this before Black Tigress's last post, ftr, but apparently it did not get sent, just to be chronologically accurate)


Mmm... a lot of the talk here about being judged, etc, reminds me of something an Ne-EII was talking about recently: basically, she was explaining a situation where there was a mishap, and she was yelled at by someone for "being a terrible person"...

She was zoning out, standing looking out a glass window/door, and apparently a person with a disability was trying to get inside the building. She was unaware of this person until someone else came over and opened up the door, and of course seeing this she then helped him in, too. Later, the person said she was a horrible person because she was just standing there, watching this person struggle - according to him. But it was a misinterpretation on his part, the EII was just zoning out. So the EII felt bad about that, she didn't like being called a terrible person or being yelled at.

Then she went home and told a relative about this story, who was an Fe dominant, and interpreted her reaction as being scholded. From my understanding of the situation, the Fe dominant was commenting on the "badness" of not helping a disabled person. But this bothered the EII even more because she was expressing her story, and got "judged".


Hm, I'm trying to come up with a way to talk about how my ISFp friend uses Fe, but give me a moment.

Wow. I cannot tell you how real this is. I've been in similar spots, exactly as you have described where I was criticized for something I could have done... and I have been in that zoned out state before. I have (who I believe is) an ESI aunt who had a strong presence in my childhood who would reciprocate what I already felt which also bothered me even more into a sense of guilt.

It has not happened much in my life, but I can distinctly remember these moments which caused me to address it by "forcing" myself to be more mindful of my surroundings. It became a reactionary response to "guard" myself against it happening again because I didn't want people to have to tell me something that I already felt so strongly about. I never felt like I had the chance to say "I'm sorry, it was an honest mistake." because it was always taken as "Well, you SHOULD have been paying attention and it shouldn't have happened!"

So, yes, I have had significant episodes of guilt trips from close family members that have shaped some of why I "guard" against it happening again.

[UDP]

I'd like to add just a bit more.

Oftentimes people will ask me a simple question, like "How are you?" or "How was your weekend?" At least, in theory those questions are simple, but more often than not they are quite loaded to me. When people ask me this type of question, hundreds of things are going on in my mind. I want to answer them truthfully and completely, but I can't do that without telling them everything that is on my mind. They want a very brief response from me, but often I can't really sum up all my feelings into just one or two sentences. It bothers me a lot that I can't be completely honest with them because to them I'd be giving them too much information, which would make them bored and/or annoyed with me. It's one of those times where their definition of how you are at a given time is far simpler than it is to me.

Does it bother you if people ask you how you are doing anyways?
See, I really wouldn't mind knowing everything that you wanted to say - I like hearing about everything, but I understand trust is a factor.

I assume, ideally, you'd like to be able to tell someone everything - to answer the question fully. But from what has been said here in the thread, it sounds like confidence that you won't be looked down upon or rejected is important, as well as trust that the person you are talking to actually wants to hear you. (correct me/add more if you want).

Is there a better question you'd like to be asked, as opposed to "how you are doing?" etc? Or are you comfortable with that?

[Christy B]

Agree with other EIIs. Not everyone does want to hear everything. In fact if you tell them REALLY how things are often they are disturbed.

My mother and sister are both Fe first and they always ask me how I am doing, but they don't REALLY want to know. In fact if I tell them something that is unpleasant they get mad at me, and or have advice about how I should change my thinking to more positive thoughts, etc.

I cannot lie so sometimes when they ask me one of these questions I just don't speak- it is like I cannot even open my mouth, and I may just stare at them or I may walk away. I do not want to do this- I really, really want to tell them everything but I just can't. When I do not answer they find this to be hostile and then are mad at me for being rude, but if I don't have something "good" to say then I would rather say nothing at all (which is what they have told me from a very young age anyway. . .)

This is all very frustrating.

[Christy B]

Wow. I cannot tell you how real this is. I've been in similar spots, exactly as you have described where I was criticized for something I could have done... and I have been in that zoned out state before. I have (who I believe is) an ESI aunt who had a strong presence in my childhood who would reciprocate what I already felt which also bothered me even more into a sense of guilt.

It has not happened much in my life, but I can distinctly remember these moments which caused me to address it by "forcing" myself to be more mindful of my surroundings. It became a reactionary response to "guard" myself against it happening again because I didn't want people to have to tell me something that I already felt so strongly about. I never felt like I had the chance to say "I'm sorry, it was an honest mistake." because it was always taken as "Well, you SHOULD have been paying attention and it shouldn't have happened!"

So, yes, I have had significant episodes of guilt trips from close family members that have shaped some of why I "guard" against it happening again.

I don't think this has ever happened to me. I am really aware of other people around me and their needs, usually over my own. I don't "zone" out in a way that would prevent me from noticing if someone was in need of practical care. In fact am probably hyper-aware of this sort of thing. . .

[tereg]

Does it bother you if people ask you how you are doing anyways?
See, I really wouldn't mind knowing everything that you wanted to say - I like hearing about everything, but I understand trust is a factor.

I assume, ideally, you'd like to be able to tell someone everything - to answer the question fully. But from what has been said here in the thread, it sounds like confidence that you won't be looked down upon or rejected is important, as well as trust that the person you are talking to actually wants to hear you. (correct me/add more if you want).

Is there a better question you'd like to be asked, as opposed to "how you are doing?" etc? Or are you comfortable with that?

My feeling about people asking me about how I'm doing is this: I am not bothered by the question. I would love to be able to answer the question in a way that I feel would be adequate. But many times, I feel like there isn't enough time to adequately answer the question (like if I'm passing someone down the hall and someone asks me the question)

It's more about applying the principle into all areas of social interaction. There are other times when it's more appropriate to elaborate EXACTLY how I'm feeling, but I don't think when I'm crossing paths with someone down the hall is one of those times.

It bothers me personally (I must emphasize not towards the question nor towards the person asking the question) that I feel pressed to answer that question in a "canned" way. I answer things in ... the only way I can describe it is "robotic", prepared answers. I don't know there's this feeling I have where I want to be genuine with people and not present a facade to them. I don't like perceiving myself as being even slightly disingenuous in common social situations, and therefore it bothers me that I'm left to answer these innocuous questions in prepared ways. I just feel that people deserve more out of me than that. But hey, I've been guilty of overthinking things before and this might, indeed, be one of those times.

"Hey Josh, how are you?"
"I'm doing well, and yourself?"
"I'm doing great!"
"Good!"

The more that this kind of thing goes on, the more that it grows on me that I would rather have the time to be more detailed to answer a question as innocuous as that... it just feels like I should and want to do more to not be so robotic. But this situation is just so common that I'm left to wonder if I'm simply thinking too much about it.

I'm imagining a scenario in which someone asks me the question walking in the opposite direction and I give them an explanation longer than 20 seconds... it just doesn't seem appropriate for me to do that. Well, I don't know... I think there are exceptions to that. But for the most part when it looks like someone is going somewhere and opposite of me, I'm not going to be able to answer the question like I want to.

I mean, it's such a common thing to ask when you see someone for the first time during a given day. So, I'm not advocating not asking the question at all. But, I think I would feel more ... hmm... if I just had more time in a more appropriate setting to really answer the question more than just saying "I'm doing well, and yourself?" would feel better for me.

This is what a more appropriate situation would be. Say I'm crossing someone's office, not particularly busy, but on my way somewhere and someone stops me.

"Hey Josh?"
"Yes?"
"Hey, how's everything going? You look a little down today."
"Well..." and proceed to explain more in detail.

I'm not sure why it's different, but it just feels more comfortable to take the time to say more than "I'm doing well, how about yourself?" It's a relaxed atmosphere, they are obviously willing to listen... it just feels better.

[tereg]

I don't think this has ever happened to me. I am really aware of other people around me and their needs, usually over my own. I don't "zone" out in a way that would prevent me from noticing if someone was in need of practical care. In fact am probably hyper-aware of this sort of thing. . .

For me personally, it is because of these guilt situations that has driven me into hyper-awareness.

[BlackTigress]

Holy crap. Are you my twin or something? I feel like I'm reading my own posts!

Great minds think alike.

Wow. I cannot tell you how real this is. I've been in similar spots, exactly as you have described where I was criticized for something I could have done... and I have been in that zoned out state before. I have (who I believe is) an ESI aunt who had a strong presence in my childhood who would reciprocate what I already felt which also bothered me even more into a sense of guilt.

It has not happened much in my life, but I can distinctly remember these moments which caused me to address it by "forcing" myself to be more mindful of my surroundings. It became a reactionary response to "guard" myself against it happening again because I didn't want people to have to tell me something that I already felt so strongly about. I never felt like I had the chance to say "I'm sorry, it was an honest mistake." because it was always taken as "Well, you SHOULD have been paying attention and it shouldn't have happened!"

So, yes, I have had significant episodes of guilt trips from close family members that have shaped some of why I "guard" against it happening again.

I feel like that quite often. I frequently find myself daydreaming (far more than most people), and every now and then it causes me to miss out on important information. Ironically, what I daydream about most often is me in a situation where everything is fine and I feel comfortable enough to act myself; there are no mistakes on my part, and everyone is happy with me. Dreaming of a place where I am free from mistakes sometimes causes me to actually make them since I am zoning out. It's pretty painful when that happens, because it takes so long for me to recover. If I can't even feel comfortable through daydreaming, is there ever going to be a way for me to feel at ease?

Does it bother you if people ask you how you are doing anyways?
See, I really wouldn't mind knowing everything that you wanted to say - I like hearing about everything, but I understand trust is a factor.

I assume, ideally, you'd like to be able to tell someone everything - to answer the question fully. But from what has been said here in the thread, it sounds like confidence that you won't be looked down upon or rejected is important, as well as trust that the person you are talking to actually wants to hear you. (correct me/add more if you want).

Is there a better question you'd like to be asked, as opposed to "how you are doing?" etc? Or are you comfortable with that?

I suppose it depends on the circumstances in which they ask it. If they are willing to give me time enough to gather my thoughts and feelings and attempt to sum them up in a few sentences (and be ok with it if I can't), then I actually enjoy them asking. But when they just want a robotic answer like tereg said, I'd rather them ignore me completely. I really don't like it when people talk just for the sake of talking; I want them to talk in order to gather information or to express that they care (even if they care only a little).

For me personally, it is because of these guilt situations that has driven me into hyper-awareness.

Indeed, I don't remember a day where I haven't felt guilt in some fashion, whether the guilt is justified or not. I also feel guilt a lot stronger than most people; sometimes people notice this and use that as a reason to avoid me. Sometimes they think I'm just making it up and I want attention or something. But most do not see just how much things really bother me. It's not like I feel so guilty on purpose, it's just the way I react to things.

This constant guilt trip is one of many reasons why I am not more social; why interact with people when chances are you're going to feel miserable from it? I actually like being around people, but because I'm so different, most people don't care to be around me, which leaves me feeling very alienated, which in turn makes me less social, which makes people get the wrong assumption about me, which makes me feel terrible because I'm not showing them who I really am and I am therefore being false. Sometimes I can't help but wonder why I bother at all, but I know very well that I'd be at least as miserable (if not much more) if I didn't interact at all.



I must say that I am quite pleased that you are so interested enough in what I have to say. You didn't reject me, nor did you necessarily agree with me, you just take what I say and consider it deeply, and that's really what I want the most in discussions like this. It makes me want to tell you even more about how I deal with things (in future posts; I'll stop for now to give me time to think about what I should say next).