The nature of Fi

[aka-kitsune]

I'm curious about the manifestation of in ego block especially, but in general, I'd like to solicit some replies regarding how this element functions, in an effort to help me understand what's really going on there.

As an ego type, I usually find myself searching for a certain quality of warmth in -valuing types. Sometimes it's there, and other times it appears to have vanished completely. A very quick warm-to-cold phenomenon, which I usually find very disconcerting. At times, I feel secure and reassured that I'm valued, and others, it feels like I'm just another random person that only warrants basic politeness. This makes it a bit difficult for me to feel like I'm really establishing a genuine rapport. I constantly worry that I need to recover lost ground each time.

Is this a common perception? Does the chill always ultimately return again and again??

I'd appreciate thoughts and elucidations of and/or references to other threads where the quality of is discussed in more detail...

I really want to understand!

[Joy]

This reminds me much of a situation between my IEI sister in law and Peter.

She and my brother moved in a while ago, and after a couple months or so they said they wanted to move out because they (read: my sister in law) felt unwelcomed. She felt this way because when she was around Peter, he usually just continued what he was doing, or perhaps gave her a straight faced nod in response to her saying hi.

Peter was irritated... Something along the lines of "Why should I be expected to reassure her that I like her every time I see her? 'HI! HOW ARE YOU TODAY? SURE IS LOVELY WEATHER WE'RE HAVING!' Fuck that. I shouldn't have to fake being happy. I'm in my house. It's not my responsibility to see to her mood and make her feel 'welcomed'. I shouldn't have to stop what I'm doing just because she comes downstairs."

Granted, there's another reason he was irritated with her, but I still think that what she expected of him (and me, but since she nows me she's not as shy about saying hi to me first, and I am more talkative in general... however, she still thinks I hate her if I don't say something to her as she's coming or going a few times in a row) was a Fe atmosphere. I feel similarly to Peter... why should I have to act a certain way or fake a mood in order for her to be comfortable? My mood/state is what it is and that's not going to change because someone I lived with enters the room. Why should someone need that kind of constant reassurance?

Interestingly, my FiNe sister had a similar complaint about Peter... I think in her case it was a matter of Ne/Si vs. Se though. The sister in law expected him to create some sort of Fe atmosphere, the sister expected him to create/maintain some sort of Si atmosphere... both of which he feels he shouldn't be expected to do (though he appreciates/likes my sister so he makes more of an effort with her since he found out that she thought he didn't like her).

(And no, my brother and sister in law haven't moved out.)

[Gilly]

A straight faced nod? Christ man, you could try a little...

[Joy]

Er... that was a response to the thing about warmth vs. chill. The moral of that story is that from a Fi perspective, it seems strange that someone should need constant reassurance (in the form of warmth) in order to know that you like them.

I think the easiest way to understand Fi itself is probably to compare it to Ti. I've been meaning to make a thread about that, so I hope you don't mind if I just start a new thread about that specific matter instead of posting about it here.

[aestrivex]

A straight faced nod? Christ man, you could try a little...

and you could stay out of what really is not any of your business at all.

[Joy]

A straight faced nod? Christ man, you could try a little...

and you could stay out of what really is not any of your business at all.

lol

This is a Fe vs. Fi example, I think. Niffweed sees Peter's relationship to my sister in law as being between Peter and my sister in law. Gilly, if I'm not mistaken (a Fe type can correct me if I'm wrong about this perspective), has a similar attitude to my sister in law: Why wouldn't you greet someone with at least a little bit of warmth? Unless, that is, you don't like them or want them to feel bad or just don't care at all about their feelings...

A straight faced nod? Christ man, you could try a little...

He has in situations where they're directly interacting or conversing, but if he's in the middle of something and she says hi just for the sake of acknowledging him, he acknowledges her, yet he doesn't see a reason to stop concentrating on what he's doing to give her a special warm greeting. I don't generally even get "warm" greetings from him (unless I'm returning home after being gone for a while). That's just not his nature. He doesn't feel he should be expected to do something that's against his nature just because she wants to feel "warm". Again, she should be responsible for her own mood.

His focus is on the actual relationship between himself and others, not creating what he sees as a phony emotional atmosphere every time someone he lives with is walking through the next room.

[Gilly]

A straight faced nod? Christ man, you could try a little...

and you could stay out of what really is not any of your business at all.

Was that intentionally ironic?

[aestrivex]

A straight faced nod? Christ man, you could try a little...

and you could stay out of what really is not any of your business at all.

Was that intentionally ironic?

no. the presumption of your post annoyed me.

[aestrivex]

lol

This is a Fe vs. Fi example, I think.

[Khamelion]

good thread

[Gilly]

A straight faced nod? Christ man, you could try a little...

and you could stay out of what really is not any of your business at all.

Was that intentionally ironic?

no. the presumption of your post annoyed me.

Presumption? I'm just assuming that most people like to be acknowledged. I know he doesn't have any duty to society, but you can't always just think of yourself. Being cordial is asking nothing. Doing someone the same courtesy they do you is not below anyone.

And...you could stay stay out of what is not any of your business at all.

[FDG]

I suppose, if you don't like somebody you don't greet him/her, and vice versa.

[discojoe]

I suppose, if you don't like somebody you don't greet him/her, and vice versa.

That's only true when that's what you expect. It's illogical and silly though, but I acknowledge that it's a reality.

[FDG]

I suppose, if you don't like somebody you don't greet him/her, and vice versa.

That's only true when that's what you expect. It's illogical and silly though, but I acknowledge that it's a reality.

Sorry, what do you mean? Why is it illogical not to be warm to somebody you dislike?

I wanted to clarify that it's not a double implication so if you're not warm it doesn't mean you dislike, but if you dislike you will not be warm.

[discojoe]

A straight faced nod? Christ man, you could try a little...

and you could stay out of what really is not any of your business at all.

Was that intentionally ironic?

no. the presumption of your post annoyed me.

Presumption? I'm just assuming that most people like to be acknowledged. I know he doesn't have any duty to society, but you can't always just think of yourself. Being cordial is asking nothing. Doing someone the same courtesy they do you is not below anyone.

And...you could stay stay out of what is not any of your business at all.

I do acknowledge people when they speak to me, and if I don't it's because I didn't hear them. I think this is about me not smiling or making smalltalk.

[aestrivex]

Presumption? I'm just assuming that most people like to be acknowledged. I know he doesn't have any duty to society, but you can't always just think of yourself. Being cordial is asking nothing. Doing someone the same courtesy they do you is not below anyone.

courtesy and everything else that you describe constitutes an arbitrary and pointless social ritual. other people be damned. if you don't like it, kiss my ass.

[discojoe]

I suppose, if you don't like somebody you don't greet him/her, and vice versa.

That's only true when that's what you expect. It's illogical and silly though, but I acknowledge that it's a reality.

Sorry, what do you mean? Why is it illogical not to be warm to somebody you dislike?

I wanted to clarify that it's not a double implication so if you're not warm it doesn't mean you dislike, but if you dislike you will not be warm.

You didn't say "be warm", you said "greet". Of course being cold to someone shows either dislike or indifference, but not greeting someone doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Joy]

I think this is about me not smiling or making smalltalk.

yes

[Slacker]

I'm curious about the manifestation of in ego block especially, but in general, I'd like to solicit some replies regarding how this element functions, in an effort to help me understand what's really going on there.

As an ego type, I usually find myself searching for a certain quality of warmth in -valuing types. Sometimes it's there, and other times it appears to have vanished completely. A very quick warm-to-cold phenomenon, which I usually find very disconcerting. At times, I feel secure and reassured that I'm valued, and others, it feels like I'm just another random person that only warrants basic politeness. This makes it a bit difficult for me to feel like I'm really establishing a genuine rapport. I constantly worry that I need to recover lost ground each time.

Is this a common perception? Does the chill always ultimately return again and again??

I'd appreciate thoughts and elucidations of and/or references to other threads where the quality of is discussed in more detail...

I really want to understand!

It's interesting that you see this constant warmth as genuine, because it's really the opposite for me. When people are warm all the time, it sometimes feels like they're doing a job rather than responding naturally. And when I'm around people with strong Fe, I feel some kind of obligation to go along with it and help, which at some point starts to wear me out. I would prefer to be able to relax and chat with people I want to chat with and not worry about how everyone is feeling.

[discojoe]

Presumption? I'm just assuming that most people like to be acknowledged. I know he doesn't have any duty to society, but you can't always just think of yourself. Being cordial is asking nothing. Doing someone the same courtesy they do you is not below anyone.

courtesy and everything else that you describe constitutes an arbitrary and pointless social ritual. other people be damned. if you don't like it, kiss my ass.

There's a sort of "bottom line" thing here, where even though it is silly/retarded to have to greet people warmly and behave cordially in certain situations, the bottom line is that it's a vital part of advancing in business and of making certain types of people like you. If you don't care for either of those things then it's still rubbish, though.

[aestrivex]

There's a sort of "bottom line" thing here, where even though it is silly/retarded to have to greet people warmly and behave cordially in certain situations, the bottom line is that it's a vital part of advancing in business and of making certain types of people like you. If you don't care for either of those things then it's still rubbish, though.

i have no actual business or work-related experience to draw on, but as of yet my lack of interest in senseless social rituals has never significantly hurt me in any kind of important formal situation.

[FDG]

I suppose, if you don't like somebody you don't greet him/her, and vice versa.

That's only true when that's what you expect. It's illogical and silly though, but I acknowledge that it's a reality.

Sorry, what do you mean? Why is it illogical not to be warm to somebody you dislike?

I wanted to clarify that it's not a double implication so if you're not warm it doesn't mean you dislike, but if you dislike you will not be warm.

You didn't say "be warm", you said "greet". Of course being cold to someone shows either dislike or indifference, but not greeting someone doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Depends on the situation, probably.

[Joy]

I relate to what you said, slacker mom.

Presumption? I'm just assuming that most people like to be acknowledged. I know he doesn't have any duty to society, but you can't always just think of yourself. Being cordial is asking nothing. Doing someone the same courtesy they do you is not below anyone.

courtesy and everything else that you describe constitutes an arbitrary and pointless social ritual. other people be damned. if you don't like it, kiss my ass.

There's a sort of "bottom line" thing here, where even though it is silly/retarded to have to greet people warmly and behave cordially in certain situations, the bottom line is that it's a vital part of advancing in business and of making certain types of people like you. If you don't care for either of those things then it's still rubbish, though.

I just see it as "the language of the natives". When you're dealing with people, you have to speak their language in order for effective communication to occur. I see the Fe in what people are doing and generally what they need, and I try to give it to them for the sake of proper communication. A lot of times I see where Fe can solve problems when others are not giving Fe enough attention and it's resulting in their not being able to accomplish something that they're trying accomplish (or that needs to be accomplished). It's sort of cool, really. You can accomplish so much and get people to work with you when you can see the Fe dynamics of the situation and offer people what they want. And it's not so bad... When you get into it, it can be fun, and you make friends (or at least friendly acquaintances) if you do it enough. It is exhausting though.

[munenori2]

I just see it as "the language of the natives". When you're dealing with people, you have to speak their language in order for effective communication to occur.

I agree completely.

[Blaze]

to me Fe is a signal of where the relationships stands. if the emotional vibe is cold, then i think that there's a problem or that the other person is having a bad day.

as a Ti person, i look for consistency between emotional expression, behavior, and communication. i want these to line up. when they don't i start to think there's a problem.

i'm much more effective when there's a pleasant flow of positive Fe.

a heavy Fi atmosphere makes me feel cornered and tense and evaluated. seems like positive Fi is demonstrated primarily by actions rather than emotions, words or mood.

FWIW.

[Joy]

What is an Fi atmosphere? Honestly, I can't say I've ever noticed this.

[Blaze]

What is an Fi atmosphere? Honestly, I can't say I've ever noticed this.

easy. discussions about who is doing the right thing or wrong thing and why that is. heavily action focused. Fi atmosphere is kinda cold and to me feels tense. heavy focus on roles and boundaries and rules.

what is an Fe atmosphere? i mean wtf you think there's no such thing as an Fi atmosphere?

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[redbaron]

I just see it as "the language of the natives". When you're dealing with people, you have to speak their language in order for effective communication to occur. I see the Fe in what people are doing and generally what they need, and I try to give it to them for the sake of proper communication. A lot of times I see where Fe can solve problems when others are not giving Fe enough attention and it's resulting in their not being able to accomplish something that they're trying accomplish (or that needs to be accomplished). It's sort of cool, really. You can accomplish so much and get people to work with you when you can see the Fe dynamics of the situation and offer people what they want. And it's not so bad... When you get into it, it can be fun, and you make friends (or at least friendly acquaintances) if you do it enough. It is exhausting though.

It's emotional intelligence--being able to adjust yourself a bit to the emotional needs of those around you to get where you need to go even when it might not be your preference.

[Blaze]

huh you guys really think it's that big of an effort to be a little er effusive?

well i guess i think it's too big of an effort to pay attention to every little nitpicky social etiquette rule or boundary violation or role violation a la "stepping on somebody's toes". so it makes sense.

there really is a divide about this it seems.

[redbaron]

I think that once you get to know someone--when you realize that they AREN'T the type to create that warm positive emotional atmosphere, you can just give them the benefit of the doubt and not need that from them, even if you're a Fe type. I appreciate the warmth but I don't feel that I need it from everyone. I know there are some people who just aren't inclined to be that way and that doesn't necessarily mean they don't like me. I feel like after awhile (even just a few minutes) I can usually tell what sort of person I'm dealing with and adjust my expectations. I do think it's silly to feel like you should have to always be so reassuring to someone in your own house.

[Joy]

What is an Fi atmosphere? Honestly, I can't say I've ever noticed this.

easy. discussions about who is doing the right thing or wrong thing and why that is. heavily action focused. Fi atmosphere is kinda cold and to me feels tense. heavy focus on roles and boundaries and rules.

I don't equate all of that stuff with Fi, but we could be talking about different things when we use the same words. Rules are, imo, more of a Ti thing than a Fi thing. Roles and boundaries could be Fi, depending on what you mean. The right or wrong thing can be related to any rational information element. Action focus is not a Fi thing at all (probably Se, if I understand what you're talking about). The coldness that you're talking about is more a lack of Fe than it is Fi.

what is an Fe atmosphere?

Mood, warmth, emotional expression, etc.

I haven't really explored this idea yet, but when people are talking about "atmosphere", I tend to think of Fe and/or Si. I'm sure "atmospheres" could consist of any of the information aspects, but I think the perception of them is still related primarily to Fe and Si. For example, there could be a lot of Ti discussion going on, but individuals only perceive it as a Ti "atmosphere" via Fe. Or there could be a lot of very Se people communicating in a very Se manner, but individuals only perceive it as a Se "atmosphere" via Si.

[redbaron]

huh you guys really think it's that big of an effort to be a little er effusive?

well i guess i think it's too big of an effort to pay attention to every little nitpicky social etiquette rule or boundary violation or role violation a la "stepping on somebody's toes". so it makes sense.

there really is a divide about this it seems.

Yes, I'm with you on this. I hate that stuff.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Joy]

pay attention to every little nitpicky social etiquette rule or boundary violation or role violation a la "stepping on somebody's toes".

I fucking HATE that shit. Especially "social etiquette".

[Blaze]

huh you guys really think it's that big of an effort to be a little er effusive?

well i guess i think it's too big of an effort to pay attention to every little nitpicky social etiquette rule or boundary violation or role violation a la "stepping on somebody's toes". so it makes sense.

there really is a divide about this it seems.

Yes, I'm with you on this. I hate that stuff.

Hmm, yeah, I also hate that stuff. *shrug* Don't think it's Fi btw.

it's leading Fi not creative.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Joy]

huh you guys really think it's that big of an effort to be a little er effusive?

well i guess i think it's too big of an effort to pay attention to every little nitpicky social etiquette rule or boundary violation or role violation a la "stepping on somebody's toes". so it makes sense.

there really is a divide about this it seems.

Yes, I'm with you on this. I hate that stuff.

Hmm, yeah, I also hate that stuff. *shrug* Don't think it's Fi btw.

it's leading Fi not creative.

So you're saying that it's IxFjs that are all about social etiquette?

[FDG]

Action focus is not a Fi thing at all

Te-Fi axis, peak of grave over merry (with blaze being a Ti ENTp and thus peak of merry)

In any case, much of that is probably calibrated by the individual, in the sense that to a Te type a Fi type will seem to be "appropriately" warm given the status of the relationship, whereas to a Ti type the Fi type will look not sufficiently warm; actions are an entirely different topic, simply because each dual pair has its focus of action for each pair of subtypes. Rule of thumb: external=action, internal=not; so for a Te(Ni) Fi(Se) the two would have a more similar level of activity in comparison to a (Te)Ni (Fi)Se couple where the first agent will be clearly more active than the second.

[Blaze]

What is an Fi atmosphere? Honestly, I can't say I've ever noticed this.

easy. discussions about who is doing the right thing or wrong thing and why that is. heavily action focused. Fi atmosphere is kinda cold and to me feels tense. heavy focus on roles and boundaries and rules.

I don't equate all of that stuff with Fi, but we could be talking about different things when we use the same words. Rules are, imo, more of a Ti thing than a Fi thing. Roles and boundaries could be Fi, depending on what you mean. The right or wrong thing can be related to any rational information element. Action focus is not a Fi thing at all (probably Se, if I understand what you're talking about). The coldness that you're talking about is more a lack of Fe than it is Fi.

what is an Fe atmosphere?

Mood, warmth, emotional expression, etc.

I haven't really explored this idea yet, but when people are talking about "atmosphere", I tend to think of Fe and/or Si. I'm sure "atmospheres" could consist of any of the information aspects, but I think the perception of them is still related primarily to Fe and Si. For example, there could be a lot of Ti discussion going on, but individuals only perceive it as a Ti "atmosphere" via Fe. Or there could be a lot of very Se people communicating in a very Se manner, but individuals only perceive it as a Se "atmosphere" via Si.

perhaps the lack of atmosphere with Fi creates a tense atmosphere for an Fe valuing person.

Fi is clearly evaluative, static, and judges people according to ethical right and wrong. roles and boundaries are what defines relationships i would think. according to Fi you're to behave properly for your role and negotiate appropriate boundaries based on your role and the role of the other person(s) involved. how is this not Fi? if one's relationship is not defined by emotional expressed as with Fe, then exactly how would it be defined other than by actions and words? again how is that not Fi?