Here's me, zenbrat. Little camera shy at first, but you get the idea of who I am.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlR1WQ9PLU[/youtube]
Here's me, zenbrat. Little camera shy at first, but you get the idea of who I am.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlR1WQ9PLU[/youtube]
Cool. Thanks for posting. Great video. After looking at the video I would say ISTj most likely.Originally Posted by Ezra
Suomea
it is true that i'm an SLE Ti sub but i'm also 8w9. there's no way i'm a 7w8.
IEI - the nasty kind...
Ezra,
I'm curious... why are you so attached to proving your type to me? You cannot make people think what you want them to.
I've seen your video before and my opinion stands. If anything, your rather verbose blast of j on this thread moves me beyond speculation and into certainty. I perceive you to be STj at this time. If, and when, something else affects that perception, it may change.
You haven't asked me to explain, so I haven't. Insulting me just doesn't bring out a desire to prove what I know. Switch tactics, brother - this one isn't workin'. If you're curious about my "foundations" I will gladly take the time to lay them out for your review.
And for the record: aggressiveness and foul language are not indicators of Se dominance - in MBTI or Socionics.
damn every time i read that Se subtype description it kind of looks like me
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
snap, totally agree with this.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
We're discussing that at the moment in Non-socionic Type theories.
We're discussing that at the moment in Non-socionic Type theories.
I couldn't give a shit about trying to prove my type to you; I'm trying to win the argument.
Please explain your foundations for my being an LSE.You haven't asked me to explain, so I haven't.
You totally misunderstand the quote above, you're reading it out of context. It means "Ezra's description [of his friend] is clearly of a Ti quadra type, and LII is a good possibility".i'm aware Expat doesn't dispute the ESTp typing but if he also is considering INTj (Se POLR) then he musn't think Se ego for you is anything to bet the house on.
I don't think LII is likely for Ezra himself at all. LSI, perhaps; LII - no.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
I think SEE is a likely type for Fabio, but it's not something I'm totally convinced of. But basically I think he behaves and thinks and acts like a Se EP, but I can also easily see him in my own quadra, something I really don't with SLEs generally.
I know zenbrat is not arguing this as a point, but as a general remark, since this issue appears now and then.
Those who say I'm ESTj would have to make a case as to why Si is my creative function and not my PoLR, and vice-versa for Ni. I haven't seen that so far; claims that I am ESTj and not ENTj seem to be based on specific behavioral traits they attribute to those two types, behavior traits that are inconsistent with their functions - and if there is an explanation for that, I haven't seen it yet.
Actually my hidden agenda gets a stroke at suggestions that I am ESTj, since their Se is stronger, albeit unvalued.
I'd say 8th function and 6th function can be around the same strength. 6th function just needs a little help from others. 6th function is basically our second creative function IMO.
Suomea
Expat, could you see me as a Gamma?
That contradicts the idea behind socionics. 8th is strong and unvalued, 6th is weak and valued.I'd say 8th function and 6th function can be around the same strength. 6th function just needs a little help from others. 6th function is basically our second creative function IMO.
Our 6th function is a preconscious function used by different people in varying amounts. Some people exibit very strong 6th functions IMO. You'll see some INFps making very Ti claims and having very strong Ti structures... ENTps creating a very friendly atmosphere, ESTjs being hilarious, etc. etc....Expat, could you see me as a Gamma?
That contradicts the idea behind socionics. 8th is strong and unvalued, 6th is weak and valued.I'd say 8th function and 6th function can be around the same strength. 6th function just needs a little help from others. 6th function is basically our second creative function IMO.
Suomea
Zenbrat I think I agree with most of the typings etc in the rest of your post but this part is not consistent with my experience with ESTjs. Some ESTjs really obviously valueand do like to discuss/explore information and even weird or different ideas. Maybe it is a ESTj subtype thing or just how they appear to you based on what your type is.
Socionics: XNFx
MBTI: INFJ
Megan,
From what I have observed, N or S in the ExTj personality affects how the person accepts foreign information.
The ESTj will reject information that conflicts with what they know from their experiences, unless you can provide tangible, reproducible proof otherwise. They will dub it (and the speaker) dumb, wrong and stupid until convinced. The j is very pronounced when combined with S, so it's easier to spot, because foreign information is first judged by ethos. They can, and often do, blindly accept "logic" from a reputable, admired source (even if it's wrong).
ENTj will accept information, process it, challenge rationale, then incorporate it into their 'knowledge-base' if stands judgment via logos. They seem more p than j because information sharing is more fluid. They want to hear what you know, may challenge your rationale to find the holes, but will accept (and later investigate) what they have learned from you without as much source-based judgement.
No, you're thinking of Ti types, a la LSI, LII, where it is strong and valued. The LSE is shit with possibilities, but because it is in Delta quadra, it values Ne, a possibility-based function. The LIE doesn't value Ne, but is good with it. Si has very little if anything to do with processing information. Se processes information, but in a very different way to Ne. In essence, it concerns the outward characteristics of anything that moves; its willpower, its mobilisation etc. Se is about external characteristics, most notably power and the harnessing of it. Ne is about possibilities.
Yeah Ne POLR.
Suomea
I'm not talking about Ne vs Se, generally. I'm making a comparison between Ne and Se in extraverted rationals, only.No, you're thinking of Ti types, a la LSI, LII, where it is strong and valued. The LSE is shit with possibilities, but because it is in Delta quadra, it values Ne, a possibility-based function. The LIE doesn't value Ne, but is good with it. Si has very little if anything to do with processing information. Se processes information, but in a very different way to Ne. In essence, it concerns the outward characteristics of anything that moves; its willpower, its mobilisation etc. Se is about external characteristics, most notably power and the harnessing of it. Ne is about possibilities.
Also... Se, alone, is not focused on harnessing power. It is merely an information-based function; an observation filter. Information gathered through Se is then processed through other functions. However, the combined presence of Extraversion and T often create a focus on power dynamics.
Actually, Slacker Mom, an IEE, said she could see me as a Ne type. She did a test, where she said I lacked imagination, and expected me to retort, but I didn't; I accepted it. This, she said, was suggestive of my being weak in Ne, but valuing it.
I'm almost certain you're trying to merge MBTT ideas into socionics.I'm not talking about Ne vs Se, generally. I'm making a comparison between Ne and Se in extraverted rationals, only.No, you're thinking of Ti types, a la LSI, LII, where it is strong and valued. The LSE is shit with possibilities, but because it is in Delta quadra, it values Ne, a possibility-based function. The LIE doesn't value Ne, but is good with it. Si has very little if anything to do with processing information. Se processes information, but in a very different way to Ne. In essence, it concerns the outward characteristics of anything that moves; its willpower, its mobilisation etc. Se is about external characteristics, most notably power and the harnessing of it. Ne is about possibilities.
Also... Se, alone, is not focused on harnessing power. It is merely an information-based function; an observation filter. Information gathered through Se is then processed through other functions. However, the combined presence of Extraversion and T often create a focus on power dynamics.
Hmm. I don't think Ne = imagination.
Se is an estimation of form and function. Ne is an estimation of cause and effect.
Se writers have a gift for imagery because their imaginations (re)create sensory experiences. Ne strategists have a gift for prediction because their imaginations (re)create scenarios.
I think we value our POLR to some degree. Not an overwhelming degree and we don't like it shoved down our faces... but to some degree. If someone asked me to take a test on whether people liked me or not I'd gladly take it... doesn't mean Fi isn't my POLR. Also imagination can be both Ne and Ni.Actually, Slacker Mom, an IEE, said she could see me as a Ne type. She did a test, where she said I lacked imagination, and expected me to retort, but I didn't; I accepted it. This, she said, was suggestive of my being weak in Ne, but valuing it.
Suomea
No, we do not value our PoLR. Otherwise you are talking of a socionics a world away from classic socionics, and I am not interested unless it offers better potential for living than classic socionics does.I think we value our POLR to some degree. Not an overwhelming degree and we don't like it shoved down our faces... but to some degree. If someone asked me to take a test on whether people liked me or not I'd gladly take it... doesn't mean Fi isn't my POLR. Also imagination can be both Ne and Ni.Actually, Slacker Mom, an IEE, said she could see me as a Ne type. She did a test, where she said I lacked imagination, and expected me to retort, but I didn't; I accepted it. This, she said, was suggestive of my being weak in Ne, but valuing it.
We value all functions to some degree. If we didn't we would see many more drastically unhealthy individuals... and I think the most unhealthy individuals are those who don't value their 3rd, 4th, and 7th functions at all. Now I'm not saying that individuals value 3rd, 4th, 7th, and 8th functions more than 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th functions, however we value them all to a degree.
Suomea
You've got it wrong. It's not that we value all eight functions, but that we use all eight. This is what is meant by the unconscious functions.
Not sure about that. Consider all the avatars I can remember having.
My first was the Jewish prophet Ezra. It was witty imho. At one point I had a picture of the WOMAD flags, because I loved the colours, and I'd just been there. I had "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU", because I found it amusing. I had "How About A Nice Cup Of Shut The Fuck Up" briefly because I found that amusing as well. I have a Spartan warrior helment because I appreciate the Spartan ideals and way of life, and my simple avatar is a way of showing this.
So do I.i have a hard time seeing Te + Si + Fi being as interested.
I won't. She's hopelessly mangled socionics with her own MBTT-ridden ideas, causing her to think I am an LSE. Truth is, she has no logical or, more importantly, socionical foundation for this, but that she believes she is IEI and doesn't like me.i'll buy zenbrat's self-typing [...]
Ezra,
I do not dislike you. If you didn't care what I thought, and didn't run whining to your "supporters" about big, bad zenbrat picking on you, I'd almost believe you were an 8.
However, your blowhard, whiny, chest-thumping, "trying too hard to be hard" behavior is cp6.
Oh, and btw - it's MBTI you dipshit, not MBTT.
Actually it's MBTT as well (Meyers-Briggs Type Theory).
Not all 8s are big boys who bite like they bark. I've met some pretty lame 8s. Ezra seems more like an 8 to me than Joy, and she's got more bite. And believe it or not, I think she's a cp 6
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
What? zenbrat, you've lost control of this battle I'm afraid. If this were a real conflict, your troops would be splattered, because under your leadership they would've been too arrogant and too foolhardy. You leapt before you looked. Since you're impossible to persuade, I won't bother trying to explain how you are wrong in all of the above. I refuse to waste my time on you any longer.
Agree with the top point; I don't know Joy in real life to make that assumption. But what you say is in part supported by the bold part of this (I posted the whole thing because it's interesting, and it's worth reading if you're interested in the Enneagram. Also, specifically for you, Gilly, it may or may not help you decide on your wing).Not all 8s are big boys who bite like they bark. I've met some pretty lame 8s. Ezra seems more like an 8 to me than Joy, and she's got more bite. And believe it or not, I think she's a cp 6
Misidentifying Sixes and Eights
Sixes and Eights are aggressive, although only the Eight is an entirely aggressive personality. Sixes react both to their fears and to other people and constantly oscillate from one state to another, from Level to Level. They are ambivalent and passive-aggressive, evasive, and contradictory. In contrast, Eights have solid egos and formidable wills; they keep pushing others until they get them what they want. There is little softness in Eights and even less tendency to comply with the wishes of anyone else. They have no desire to be liked or to ingratiate themselves with others. Rather than look to others for protection, Eights offer protection (patronage) in return for hard work and loyalty.
As different as these two types are, they are nevertheless similar at Level 6–but only at this Level. At this stage both Sixes (The Authoritarian Rebel) and in Eights (The Confrontational Adversary) show similar aggressive traits–belligerence, defiance, a willingness to intimidate others, a quick and threatening temper, the threat of violence, hatred of others, and so forth. However, Eights arrive at this stage as a result of constantly escalating their pressure on others to get what they want until they have become highly confrontational and combative. Sixes arrive at their state from a very different route–in reaction to their vacillation and dependency. Sixes become aggressive because they do not want to be pushed around anymore; Eights become aggressive to push others even more.
The essential difference is that Sixes eventually will yield and their defenses will crumble if enough pressure is applied to them, whereas opposition to Eights only encourages them to remain defiant and to meet their adversary with renewed aggression.
Both types at this Level can be dangerous; ironically, Sixes are probably more dangerous at this stage than Eights since they are anxious and may strike out at someone impulsively or irrationally. On the other hand, average Eights are more rational: they take the odds of success into account at every move. If and when they finally do become violent, however, Eights are more dangerous than Sixes because they are more ruthless, and the momentum of their inflated egos makes them feel that they can and must press onward until their enemies are utterly destroyed. Eights eventually become megalomaniacs (and may be destroyed after they have destroyed others). By contrast, unhealthy Sixes eventually become self-defeating (and may be destroyed by their own fear). Compare G. Gordon Liddy and Mike Tyson (Sixes) with Henry Kissinger and Muhammad Ali (Eights) to understand more about the similarities and differences between these types.
LOL.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
It is necessary for all of us to use all 8 functions to some degree to operate properly in society. Therefore they have value. Now if you want to argue that just because something has value that people 100% overlook the value of the function go ahead. You definitely won't get me to agree with you. I'm thoroughly convinced that you are an ISTj by the way.You've got it wrong. It's not that we value all eight functions, but that we use all eight. This is what is meant by the unconscious functions.
Suomea
That basically contradicts what I just said, most notably the part that you agreed with. My point is that sometimes a 6 can have more willpower than an 8; they're driven more by a reactionary defense mechanism, whereas unhealthy 8s are just plain pushy, but that doesn't make them "weaker." Insecurity can be more of a drive to get things done than genuine desire, sometimes.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Okay. Well, your thoughts impose no necessity on things.It is necessary for all of us to use all 8 functions to some degree to operate properly in society. Therefore they have value. Now if you want to argue that just because something has value that people 100% overlook the value of the function go ahead. You definitely won't get me to agree with you. I'm thoroughly convinced that you are an ISTj by the way.You've got it wrong. It's not that we value all eight functions, but that we use all eight. This is what is meant by the unconscious functions.
I don't think that strictly contradicts it. I can agree with both that and you, and I wouldn't be contradicting myself.
Look, zenbrat, it's a celebrity you. She's a pop singer.
Don't know what that means.....Okay. Well, your thoughts impose no necessity on things.It is necessary for all of us to use all 8 functions to some degree to operate properly in society. Therefore they have value. Now if you want to argue that just because something has value that people 100% overlook the value of the function go ahead. You definitely won't get me to agree with you. I'm thoroughly convinced that you are an ISTj by the way.You've got it wrong. It's not that we value all eight functions, but that we use all eight. This is what is meant by the unconscious functions.
Suomea
!
why?
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
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