INFj-ESTj dual relations discussion (EII-LSE)

[jessica129]

OT- I really like the music video on the first page.

[munenori2]

you have to let them stew like a goulash... or a souffle.... you add your paprika, caraway seeds, your pepper and your bay leaves, cover and let it cook on a low fire for 10 to 15 minutes until it's picked up the flavor of the seasonings. Then you add more shit and recover and let it simmer gently and adjust the heat. Then you give it some rice.

........then you take your spoon, and stab it in the middle and eat them.

A little flirting couldn't hurt either. When he's talking just look at his eyes for a while then say something like "I really like this eye, for some reason" and just point at one of them. Hahahahah that will mess with his mind, and he'll say "whats wrong with my other eye?" at which point you say "Yeah I was really into it last time we met but today it's all about this one" Hahahahaha.

lolz

[Ms. Kensington]

lol Im blushing! That was a good description.

mission accomplished.

[idolatrie]

@ Ms K: that's an awesome metaphor there. Though, perhaps a little too Titus Andronicus! But yeah, in response to your first comment, I guess I'm worried about two things, which is making me question everything I'm doing so much. We're going to have to be able to work together on a committee for at least another year after this one, and I don't want to compromise that. And secondly, I really like him. And I think, seriously think, that I would actually *want* to have a relationship with him, which is pretty much distinct from every other relationship I've been in. So I guess the fact that this might actually *mean* something is making me freak out a bit preemtively and try to seek additional information.

@ Minde: that is useful, any real life experiences from EIIs is useful, because sometimes reading the function-based descriptions is, well, not very 'real', and well, I don't know many EIIs in rl. If I may take a moment and ask you a question though, what would you appreciate someone doing to show they are interested in you? I know we're going to have some gender-role difficulties here, but I'd appreciate your input.

@ Topaz: haha, you're cute. Although I fear that's more of an IEE thing to do...I can see unefille doing that, but me? Hmmm...not without a lot of drinks! I don't know what I could really help him with practically. I mean, whether anything happens or not, we're not going to be physically around each other lots because we're both pretty busy and doing different things. But yeah, thanks, will definitely keep that in mind!

@ Tereg: ty for the link. Hmmm...I do remember that thread...

@ Jessica: am pretty obsessed with that song atm. It was used in SYTYCD this season, and the routine was gorgeous.

[UDP]

@ Tereg: ty for the link.

Yes, thanks.

[reckoner]

any real life experiences from EIIs is useful, because sometimes reading the function-based descriptions is, well, not very 'real', and well, I don't know many EIIs in rl. If I may take a moment and ask you a question though, what would you appreciate someone doing to show they are interested in you? I know we're going to have some gender-role difficulties here, but I'd appreciate your input.

As a male INFj, I can offer my perspective.

The first thing you should know is that we almost never initiate anything when it comes to pursuing our romantic targets. We'll steal glances when we are absolutely certain that you won't catch us, and we'll spend endless hours daydreaming about you and all of the wonderful discussions we would have and places we would see together if you were only ours. If we have targeted you as our current true unrequited love and you initiate a conversation with us, we will "light up" and start a friendly conversation with you. If you are not our one true unrequited love and you initiate conversation, we will engage in a friendly conversation with you. We do not want anyone to feel bad about themselves, so if you make an attempt to converse with us we will warmly accept it and return it in kind. The key is to gauge our enthusiasm, or the "light up" factor as I referred to it above. I'd recommend closely observing how he converses with others and then compare that with his behavior when speaking with you. It is subtle, but it will be there.

As for your question, "what would you appreciate someone doing to show they are interested in you?" First and foremost, what not to do: do NOT play games with us. We don't have any interest in playing those typical flirtatious games. If someone messes with my head in that way, I will conclude that they lack depth of character and will write them off. DO initiate conversation with us, and make sure it is in a setting where we are a bit isolated from the group so we can really focus on connecting one-on-one. This is what we long for more than anything. When speaking with us, please be genuine and express what you truly think and feel about the topics we are discussing. Even if we don't agree with you, we will respect you if you are being honest, as long as you don't do it in an overly histrionic manner...that scares us...lol. If possible, try to ascertain where a couple of our secret passions/interests lie so that you will be able to steer the conversation in that direction. We like to talk about our interests, and we could go on forever once started. This will make us feel good about the interaction. If we feel good, we will associate that with you.

As for "doing" things to gain our appreciation, one thing that I really liked that a girl did once was to write me a short sincere note about her interest in me. It was as simple as letting me know that she found me interesting, that she hadn't met anyone in a while that she found that interesting, and that she would like to get to know me better. She didn't come on strong from a romantic angle, but she didn't narrow it to friendship. As an INFj, we want to be appreciated for what we believe is our "special" nature, and we want to feel that the people we choose as associates are special as well. That little note covered both of those bases. I thought, "this intelligent, beautiful, introverted girl had the guts to write me this really sincere note, and she complimented me on top of it!" Needless to say it worked. We became good friends and attended a formal together...it never escalated to romance...but that wasn't my choice...

I'm not sure if that was at all helpful, but I wish you the best of luck!

[reckoner]

Hmm...I think we're pretty good with the communicating thing. I mean, I do feel I initiate more in conversations, but he also definitely is comfortable asking me questions - and he often remembers things I refered to ages before, which is nice. He tells me quite a bit about what he's been up to when I ask - things that if I had done, I'd only tell friends/people I am comfortable with. But then again, I have no idea how much *he* tells his friends. He questions things I say, asking things like 'do you really think that policy is fair because of these grounds, X. Y, Z', and listens to my reasons. He's certainly no pushover. But as I said, I don't know whether he talks to me more or less than he does to other people.

Sorry for the additional post, but I didn't read through the entire thread carefully the first time. After reading all this, I'm almost certain that this guy likes you, or is at the very least, very interested in you. He is the one who escalated your planned "date" from coffee to lunch. He is sharing personal information with you in conversation. An INFj would not typically do these things unless they liked you. And didn't you say you had a hunch that he reciprocated your interest. If you have any sense that an INFj may be interested in you, that's almost a sure sign right there that they are.

We play things very close to the vest when it comes to relationships due to our fear of rejection. We like to take things ssssslllllooooowwwww. Heck, back in college my s.o. almost gave up on me early in our relationship. After spending nearly every waking hour with her for three months, I still hadn't made a move (physically speaking) or sought to clarify the direction of our relationship. My s.o., who was at her wits ends, figured she would get aggressive and give it one last shot. She invited me out to dinner and a movie, held my hand during the movie, and then pushed me up against a tree and kissed me on the walk home. We've been together ever since. I confessed to her that night that I had wanted to do that every day for the last two months and that I beat myself up every night for letting the opportunity slip away.

My guess is he is waiting for you to make good on your promise to contact him and set up the particulars of your lunch date.

[UDP]

I'm reminded of this

The princess of the male ESTj’s dream does not show initiative herself, she waits, until he notices her. But when he begins to pay attention to her, he does it very tactfully and is not negative even when joking. ESTjs don’t understand sarcastic (?) jokes, they perceive them as negative evaluations of their own personality and that turns them away. They are not tempted nor attracted by mincing manners.

ESTj-INFj duality description by Aushura

[idolatrie]

Thanks bunches for all that, reckoner! And please don't apologise for posting not one, but TWO thoughtful, helpful posts.

My s.o., who was at her wits ends, figured she would get aggressive and give it one last shot. She invited me out to dinner and a movie, held my hand during the movie, and then pushed me up against a tree and kissed me on the walk home. We've been together ever since.

That is both cute and hot! Awww...

[Minde]

@ Minde: that is useful, any real life experiences from EIIs is useful, because sometimes reading the function-based descriptions is, well, not very 'real', and well, I don't know many EIIs in rl. If I may take a moment and ask you a question though, what would you appreciate someone doing to show they are interested in you? I know we're going to have some gender-role difficulties here, but I'd appreciate your input.

That's a difficult question for me, partly because I haven't really thought about it that much and partly because it's very personal sort of thing. For some reason, my initial reaction to the question is that I feel like I'd be very exposed and vulnerable if I told you everything. I'll have to contemplate a little and get back to you on it. Is that ok?

[idolatrie]

That's a difficult question for me, partly because I haven't really thought about it that much and partly because it's very personal sort of thing. For some reason, my initial reaction to the question is that I feel like I'd be very exposed and vulnerable if I told you everything. I'll have to contemplate a little and get back to you on it. Is that ok?

Of course that's ok! I never intended to make you feel exposed with that question - I guess a lot of this thread is about my insecurities and issues with being a girl and taking the initiative. And wondering to what degree I have to follow social conventions to actually indicate interest to the other party - or if I can get around doing things I feel the guy should do without giving an impression that is counter to my intention. So really, don't feel obliged about responding at all. I do apologise for putting you on the spot like that.

[Airman]

Hi there.

I´m an ESTj ... well I´ll try to be as brief as possible about this.
About two years ago I met a beautiful, charming, introvert, sensitive girl at the university. We started a kind of very polite friendship - I usually like to start off with girls I´m interested in like this - and then I found out that she was better than it already seemed. She was the kind of dream girl I never thought to encounter in my life. She´s an Aries, I´m a Libra. She´s a INFJ very probably I assume, I´m an ESTJ. And the best part, she really liked me. She always sat near me when we had classes together and she´s so shy, she wouldn´t speak a word but I´d stare at her a bit coldly but amazed by her beauty and she´d just turn very red. So lovely.

Then I had a mental breakdown - engulfed by my rage - and paused my university course for 1 year. Now this year I´m back. And to my surprise... yesterday I was waiting for the elevator and felt someone really too close to me in the line, just to turn and find out it was her - turned red immediately as I looked at her deep blue eyes. I was happy but at the same time couldn´t know what to say to her, or even if it would be good to say something, so I just kept waiting for the elevator for about a minute thinking 'i wish i had something really good to say to her, something that wouldn´t frighten her sensitivity or sound too cold' because I´m almost always on the extremes of either being too intense or too cool when I interact with people, especially girls who I´m interested in.

So I´d like some advice. What should I do, and/or not do, in approaching an INFJ girl? I´m really into her. Since I met her, when we look at each other something happens and it is so obvious for both of us that I just get a little uncomfortable and she turns all red and nervous. I´ve had some girlfriends before but never felt something like this for any of them. This is just ridiculous but I cannot control it. And I really don´t want to hurt her sensitivity in any way because that is what I find most attractive about her. This is a very intense situation. I´d like to see if socionics can help me with this.

[Beautiful sky]

I really like it when I am smiled to and said "Hi" to and "How are you?", that will break my sensitivity level right off, then I expect a light hearted conversation, something that revolves around a class or major that I am taking. So you can ask her "What are you majoring in?" and engage her in small talk. You can comment on the weather to break the ice. Don't comment on her looks (what she is wearing, how she has her hair, that she forgot to do our nails etc), we feel uncomfortable with this regard.

We are very happy to answer questions in person; we don't push people away so as long as you are next to her, you can talk to her all you want about whatever you want and she will not tell you to stop talking because we don't want to hurt people's feelings. We believe that when a person speaks, they have something to say, that it is kind to listen to people and not to ignore them. We are very good about listening and if you express concern, we will be there to help you solve the problem.

We are also result oriented, so if she likes you physically at an instant, you don't have to spend time playing games (Most of the time, we don't look at the person's looks, we look for the feeling of honesty and sincerity of the individual; we can feel the character of the person without any words. So, if we feel you are a good person, you will have our attention). You can get right down to asking her for coffee after class. We love company and to share knowledge of something is just great. So ask "Would you like to join me for a coffee and a conversation after your class? I wouldn't mind getting your advise about such and such a situation."

She will likely not ignore you and say "yes", if she feels that you need her and are sincere.

Don't use bad language when speaking with her!!! Be kind, sensitive, and gentle. Don't criticize other people, we love all people (so don't make fun of other's or make derogatory comments about other individuals based on sex, race, nationality, anything at all). and don't want to hear that side just yet, but if we are slowly exposed to that we adapt and get used to the person's inability to praise and make compliments.

[Airman]

Thank you Maritsa. Now I guess I have improved my chances in not being repuked by her.
It is definitely hard for an ESTJ not to criticize anyone, but it is feasible.
I also understand that she finds me a bit too full of myself, but that is very common among people with ESTj´s I suppose.
There is one Jay-Z phrase which I think expresses this often misunderstood feature of ESTj´s:
"I´ve been real all my life they confuse it with conceit."
And ironically this is what gives me the kind of sincerity and straighforwardness which I think attracts women like her. You can tell I really do not fake. I´m extremely real to what I think I should do, how I should behave, and even to criticize others and myself and make some jokes about them when I feel I am simply being just and honest.

[Beautiful sky]

Thank you Maritsa. Now I guess I have improved my chances in not being repuked by her.
It is definitely hard for an ESTJ not to criticize anyone, but it is feasible.
I also understand that she finds me a bit too full of myself, but that is very common among people with ESTj´s I suppose.
There is one Jay-Z phrase which I think expresses this often misunderstood feature of ESTj´s:
"I´ve been real all my life they confuse it with conceit."
And ironically this is what gives me the kind of sincerity and straighforwardness which I think attracts women like her. You can tell I really do not fake. I´m extremely real to what I think I should do, how I should behave, and even to criticize others and myself and make some jokes about them when I feel I am simply being just and honest.

You can be honest in providing information, but don't "cast" people down or disregard their value. I love people and I don't want to hear comments like "I think the Japanese are like this or that." That's awful. We connect to people but not to institutions where people and values to people is underminded; we hate war, so you can make comments about how unfair and unjust the war is on people who are not involved or do not want to be in the crossfire that has so much political power play involved.

You can also show her kindness, by taking her a tea...I love that sort of thing. I think that's very sweet and considerate.

[Airman]

Why do INFJs are attracted to ESTJs that much?
We have so much in difference.
I know why I am attracted to INFJs. But I can´t tell how a delicate sensitive flower like that is attracted by a guy like me, basically a good-willed tirant who takes everything too seriously and is prejudicial about people based on race, nationality, sex, etc. until they prove otherwise.

[Beautiful sky]

Why do INFJs are attracted to ESTJs that much?
We have so much in difference.
I know why I am attracted to INFJs. But I can´t tell how a delicate sensitive flower like that is attracted by a guy like me, basically a good-willed tirant who takes everything too seriously and is prejudicial about people based on race, nationality, sex, etc. until they prove otherwise.

Because you can easily break people who use us away from us, while we will just allow them to take advantage of us and play on our sensitive guilt side. Because you can easily remove us from situations where we are doing too much work, and because we can provide gentle care and relaxation for you when you’re over working yourselves and not relaxing enough. You allow us to voice our opinion in a safe environment, where we will not get hurt physically for being blunt and honest. I haven’t met a dual I haven’t found to be physically attractive, so that's a huge plus. You can be funny and charming, and very organized and neat, so together, it's inspiring. We like your serious nature, it's grounding.
Strong, smart, cute, protective, sensitive -in the inside, and loyal are the reasons why we are attracted to ESTj's.

We accept you as you are by slowly adapting to your nature...and our adapting does not bother or stress our Se, it's an interesting thing and very strange. We are bothered and stressed with ESTp over time because of the stress that is put on Se.

The nature of Fi is such that it always forgives and learns to see from the other person's shoes and that something that can not be fixed. That is empathetic/unconditional nature of that function. That is the reason why we refrain from being angry, from cursing and making comments that may sever relations with people completely, and why we forgive, forget, and move on.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Brilliand]

Maritsa is widely regarded as thoroughly wrong by members of this forum... and *ahem* Pinocchio isn't all that well-regarded himself, though he's quite a bit better than Maritsa. However, in this case I think that Pinocchio's advice is quite right, and Maritsa's advice is harmless, because as Pinocchio said, you have quite a bit of leeway when dealing with your dual.

[Airman]

Thank you for replying. I´ll bear these in mind.

[Shagbag The Wizard]

Frankly I'm surprised to find an LSE that takes astrology seriously.

I guess you learn something new everyday.

[Slacker]

Regardless of your type or her type, if you want to attract your dual, you should act like yourself, as your dual is attracted to you as you are. Just be yourself. It's good dating advice regardless of Socionics.

[Blaze]

Why do INFJs are attracted to ESTJs that much?
We have so much in difference.
I know why I am attracted to INFJs. But I can´t tell how a delicate sensitive flower like that is attracted by a guy like me, basically a good-willed tirant who takes everything too seriously and is prejudicial about people based on race, nationality, sex, etc. until they prove otherwise.

they soften you up. and get strength and reassurance from your confidence and stability.

[Blaze]

Maritsa is widely regarded as thoroughly wrong by members of this forum... and *ahem* Pinocchio isn't all that well-regarded himself, though he's quite a bit better than Maritsa. However, in this case I think that Pinocchio's advice is quite right, and Maritsa's advice is harmless, because as Pinocchio said, you have quite a bit of leeway when dealing with your dual.

once in a while, each of them hits the ball out of the park though. and i don't think it's by chance.

[Shagbag The Wizard]

Why do INFJs are attracted to ESTJs that much?

Because God felt sorry for the ESTjs.

We have so much in difference.

Socionically, this is a good thing.

good-willed

This is endears you to us, in spite of your flaws.

tirant

This can be cured. So can bad spelling.

takes everything too seriously

We love this. Keep doing it.

prejudicial about people based on race, nationality, sex, etc.

Hence, you need us. Hence, we need you.

[Beautiful sky]

RYU, your emotionality is inconsistent with me. You have emotional ups and downs that are very characteristic with this type relations with me.

You need Ne not Ni polr help.

[UDP]

RYU, your emotionality is inconsistent with me. You have emotional ups and downs that are very characteristic with this type relations with me.

You need Ne not Ni polr help.

But who will I turn to, if not you, for the goodnesses you bestow upon me?

[Beautiful sky]

Goodness is one thing, but Te is what I need most importantly. I need to figure out what color couch to get that matches off white walls and real natural hard wood floors. What do you recommend?

I need an extravert, who is not in their heads, who can see the workings of the outer world to tell me which one to choose.

I need a sensory type wo has a good handle on aesthetics to give me an idea of what works.

I need it all to be efficient, clutter free and I need it to be quick because I would like a home not a junk yard.

[stray]

You need to be Te for that? I'm umm.. mostly a musician, but somewhat of an artist. I'm not great, but I've had a decent hand at aesthetics since I was a little kid. I'm not a neat or cleaning things a lot, but I'm hardly a bad designer. How does Te help that? I don't know one LSE or SLI (or at least, people who may be LSE or SLI) who could really help me here, other than on a economical level. They could probably cook better too. In fact, I'm sure of it.

[Beautiful sky]

Yes. Especially LSE is very maticulous about what things they observe in their outside enviornment. Like, for instance, when picking a couch, my LSE cousin will carefully look at the stitching, the color, the cut, the style. I can't process this sort of sensory information...I can to a limit and Ne seeps in and I can't see anything anymore; they all become like shadows.

[stray]

Yes. Especially LSE is very maticulous about what things they observe in their outside enviornment. Like, for instance, when picking a couch, my LSE cousin will carefully look at the stitching, the color, the cut, the style. I can't process this sort of sensory information...I can to a limit and Ne seeps in and I can't see anything anymore; they all become like shadows.

Hmm.. perhaps another nail in the coffin of me not being EII. The day an LSE has a more aesthetic eye than I do is the day I actually am put in a coffin. I've always been an artist, so to speak, like I said. Quite a few LSEs I know are just down to earth military guys, brokers, or in sales. They're not really "aesthetes". Kind of strange that one's confusion with stylistic choices comes down to typology.

One LSE I know is very efficient, I suppose.. he's got a really "neat", well put together garden. One SLI I know is a good jazz musician, and we can talk often, but he also has this whole other side that's really "blue collar". He works in a power plant, and talks more about energy related matters than anything. I mean, he just has his job on his mind a lot, I guess.

[helvetica]

So basically my relationships in life are all doomed unless I can find an LSE?

I wish this would focus more on what could actually improve a relationship with an SLI other than magically transforming into duals. I see something similar to this happening between an SLI and myself, but I'd really rather make it better if possible.

Any advice? Personal experiences maybe?

[Lobo]

So basically my relationships in life are all doomed unless I can find an LSE?

I wish this would focus more on what could actually improve a relationship with an SLI other than magically transforming into duals.

Any advice anyone?

Thing is, it really depends on the type of relationship you want at any particular time... I feel like I have a lot to say about this topic, but I wonder if it's worth the hassle of writing something very elaborate, aside from saying that it "depends on what you want out of a relationship." I have an SLI friend who is the best activity partner I've had, but I'd only keep it at that level. Even though I've yet to find a dual that connects with me at that level, LSEs seem to be better for me when it comes to solving inter-personal problems. There's give and take.

On a side note, which I just feel like saying now: To me, there is no such thing as a bad relationship. You go into it for some reason, and you go out of it for another, it was meant to be and you learn/know more about yourself/become stronger. A lot of people don't see it like this, but unless you were forced to be with someone, to the best of your knowledge at that time you thought the person was good for you. Experiences become mistakes when you don't learn from them. /end side note

[redbaron]

On a side note, which I just feel like saying now: To me, there is no such thing as a bad relationship. You go into it for some reason, and you go out of it for another, it was meant to be and you learn/know more about yourself/become stronger. A lot of people don't see it like this, but unless you were forced to be with someone, to the best of your knowledge at that time you thought the person was good for you. Experiences become mistakes when you don't learn from them. /end side note

very nice!

[Beautiful sky]

So basically my relationships in life are all doomed unless I can find an LSE?

I wish this would focus more on what could actually improve a relationship with an SLI other than magically transforming into duals. I see something similar to this happening between an SLI and myself, but I'd really rather make it better if possible.

Any advice? Personal experiences maybe?

Yes. Don't be in a relationship with one.

[Airman]

What could hurt/imbalance my dual in a date?

[EyeSeeCold]

If you're ESTj you have nothing to worry about.

[Timeless]

What could hurt/imbalance my dual in a date?

• Going on a high speed car race up a mountain talking about how much you kick ass and are better than the guy who delivers mail.
• Biting Evander Holyfield's ear off.
• Dominating them.

[ashlesha]

punching them in the face.

[ashlesha]

If you're ESTj you have nothing to worry about.

no, but really, this. if you were ESTj, hypothetically.