Satanism and IEIs/INFps

[marooned]

I don't believe in evil either. I don't think there is some intrinsic nature of evil inside human beings... but I do think that human beings have powerful imaginations... "evil" is an idea... but when we believe in it, we give it a form. Thus we can commit acts that may be considered "evil" but no human being is evil, nor is there some hidden evil property within humanity. There is darkness, yes, but I wouldn't call it "evil." I also think that no good really comes of thinking of things in terms of "good" and "evil" because this is rather judgmental. It's a fixed sort of judgment in a way. Once something is declared evil, it can be condemned... to me, to call someone or something evil is to give up on that person or that thing. And I cannot believe that there is never any hope for anyone (even if by all reason there doesn't appear to be). I think that people have fears, and that these fears (and other negative energy/emotions) can be blown out of proportion to the point where a person starts thinking it's "evil" or that they themselves are "evil" or that others are "evil" when really it's just fear, worry, pain, guilt, etc. When a person believes strongly in evil, I really think that can become a way to create something in reality that starts looking like the idea we all have of "evil." What I'm saying is that it is an illusion... a path to get lost on.

Edited.

[Blaze]

@loki: read my post. i am not saying what you think i'm saying.

[marooned]

@loki: read my post. i am not saying what you think i'm saying.

Sigh... I haven't read your last post yet--I was probably still working on my post when you posted it. I had to edit it a few times since I left out some stuff.

Edit: Also, I wanted to mention that sometimes when I post things, I may just be trying to get to my own thoughts on a matter, not necessarily responding to others' thoughts. Though I realize this can be quite unclear as sometimes I actually am responding to others' thoughts. Hmm.

[Not A Communist Shill]

More people die of the common cold than are murdered - if anyone is evil, it is God. Malaria is supposed to be the biggest killer of humans in history - and is caused by a pathetical small parasite - it would hardly be fitting to call that 'evil'.

[Creepy-bg]

sinning is what leads to being entrapped by evil. evil is always there waiting to tempt us.

I can agree with this but only as a metaphor. Taken literally, I cannot agree with it.

the Bible emphasizes the need to have the truth inside us....the truth is what fends off evil i think and keeps us strong. evil is kind of like always trying to seduce us with promises of power and prestige...yet when we are seduced by this, we end up actually being powerless and ashamed. so it's like a paradox.

I can agree with this also on a metaphorical level. I do agree about the paradox part.

think of your good old fashioned cartoon villain. typically he has this terrible childhood and yet has this inner part that want to do good. we connect to this vulnerable inner child and we want to trust him and help him. but his bad side always overwhelms this part of him. while he may have some power in a sense, the things he does, and the people he associates with who are the type that are inclined towards power and to be drawn to him, they always betray him and his actions are self defeating. so he has a temporary illusion of power.

I think we want to help him because that inner part of him that wants to be good is who he truly is... the rest of it is where he has gotten lost. It does seem to be true that sometimes people get so lost they can't find their way back, and that others' attempts to help them fail. I must always believe they can find their way back though (even if it's unlikely).

but true power comes through weakness and submission. admitting when you are wrong and making amends for that. forgiving others for their sins and flaws.

I agree about admitting when you're wrong... I think that weakness is weakness though... er... maybe it's just semantics.

getting your strength through God or your higher power or remembering the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on our behalf.

I do not take the Bible literally, or agree with most (if any) literal interpretations of it.

i know you probably don't want to hear about Jesus. it's verboten to say his name. somehow Jesus Christ has become like Voldemort. riddle me that batman.

I think Jesus was a cool enlightened individual, but I don't think he was most of the things in a literal way that people tend to say he was when they are interpretting the Bible literally.

people are evidently not incapable of changing. but change will be much more difficult for some than for others, depending upon how entrapped one has become.

I agree.

we live in a wicked world.

the world is as we believe it to be... I don't agree that it is wicked.

Acts of terrorism. Bin Laden is like the ultimate cartoon villain.

I'm rather skeptical about the news media's portrayal of Bin Laden, though I do think it's probably some brand of the truth (most likely). In any case, since I know nothing about Bin Laden aside from what appears in the news, I can't really say anything about what he is like.

this is not to say that all is evil in the world, there are many wonderful creative things. God has created them and man has created them. in this way we are created in God's own image.

I don't really believe in God in this sense. I don't believe "God" literally created anything, especially not in 7 days.

but true evil is truly very very close to good. at times it is almost impossible to tell the difference.

I don't believe in true evil.

I think I agree with most all of your agreements

[marooned]

I think I agree with most all of your agreements

And I think I shouldn't have posted that...

[Creepy-bg]

I think I agree with most all of your agreements

And I think I shouldn't have posted that...

why not? Blaze is a big girl and an alpha to boot... she's not gunna be offended or anything by what you wrote.

[Blaze]

@loki: don't worry about it. i'm not that easily offended. hahaha

i realize that my ideas are all over the place....and i'm not connecting all the dots.

here's something to ponder, maybe this accomplishes things more effectively.

have you ever read Lord of the Flies? this story is an excellent example of how evil can take over. our world is inherently chaotic; everything is up for grabs; laws are only as good as our abilities to enforce them. perceptions are everything and they are manipulated by those who desire power.

i'm not saying that power is bad BTW. i'm saying that we are a race of little children who have to constantly be reminded to behave and who are very easily manipulated in certain kinds of contexts, especially. any information element can be spun in a self serving manner. take WWII as an example.

are we helpless victims? absolutely not. but there is a constant tension between good and evil.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Why does the concept of evil even matter to a Christian? Gandhi and Stalin are both going to be punished in hell for all eternity - they are clearly very alike in terms of evilness.

[Blaze]

er how exactly is Ghandi evil?

[Not A Communist Shill]

er how exactly is Ghandi evil?

Well, he liked Christ, but he didn't accept him as his Saviour. Therefore, he is going to hell.

[aka-kitsune]

i'm saying that we are a race of little children who have to constantly be reminded to behave and who are very easily manipulated in certain kinds of contexts, especially.

I personally find this a repulsive metaphor. I can't see how any free-thinking person can swallow this without feeling demeaned.

[Blaze]

i'm saying that we are a race of little children who have to constantly be reminded to behave and who are very easily manipulated in certain kinds of contexts, especially.

I personally find this a repulsive metaphor. I can't see how any free-thinking person can swallow this without feeling demeaned.

i find your reaction to be overblown and your thinking narrow and your statements inflammatory and rude.

[Blaze]

er how exactly is Ghandi evil?

Well, he liked Christ, but he didn't accept him as his Saviour. Therefore, he is going to hell.

that's not how i would define evil.

[marooned]

my response about Lord of the Flies is that with everyone and every culture or group of people there are so many possibilities of what it can become. Some we might call "bad" and others we might call "good" depending upon what we think is bad and what we think is good. But what emerges is just one possibility out of everything that could have been... and by itself, it is neither bad nor good; it just is. Patterns of behavior can escalate into something terrible, especially when a group mentality overcomes people's self-awareness... I don't know I just don't think of it as evil. It isn't right, it's horrible, unfortunate, dark, but not evil.

As for power, I don't really think of it as good or bad either. True power strengthens someone... if it doesn't do that, then it isn't really power, just something that looks like it. Power seems to be one of those things where if you seek it, you'll never get it, you'll only get lost. If you don't seek it, then you will be far more likely to get it, and when/if you do, you won't think of it as "power." I'm becoming increasingly vague, so I'll leave it at that...

[Not A Communist Shill]

er how exactly is Ghandi evil?

Well, he liked Christ, but he didn't accept him as his Saviour. Therefore, he is going to hell.

that's not how i would define evil.

Someone who is without God is evil...why else would someone be punished for all eternity?

[aka-kitsune]

i'm saying that we are a race of little children who have to constantly be reminded to behave and who are very easily manipulated in certain kinds of contexts, especially.

I personally find this a repulsive metaphor. I can't see how any free-thinking person can swallow this without feeling demeaned.

i find your reaction to be overblown and your thinking narrow and your statements inflammatory and rude.

I simply don't take kindly to being talked down to. I'm not a little child and I would never accept any dogma that requires I accept that. Would you accept that kind of rhetoric from your boss at work? Your mate? Your President? Even from your parents once you're older than say 20 years old?

When does god allow you responsibility for your own actions without wagging the finger at you for being a naughty child?

[Blaze]

my response about Lord of the Flies is that with everyone and every culture or group of people there are so many possibilities of what it can become. Some we might call "bad" and others we might call "good" depending upon what we think is bad and what we think is good. But what emerges is just one possibility out of everything that could have been... and by itself, it is neither bad nor good; it just is. Patterns of behavior can escalate into something terrible, especially when a group mentality overcomes people's self-awareness... I don't know I just don't think of it as evil. It isn't right, it's horrible, unfortunate, dark, but not evil.

i appreciate this approach...except that i don't think i used to word good or bad. in lord of the flies i don't think anyone would argue that the outcome was not optimal. and you are right it is a metaphor...i am suggesting that the word evil be considered from a slightly different angle. that evil is really not so absolute. it's a strong word that people react to (kind of like infantile to use a socionics reference). yet we all here at socionics have not thought of a better word to describe this erotic attitude. so it is the same with the word evil. we have not thought of a better word to describe the nefarious, unholy, profane, and otherwise suspect. there are evil people, evil plans, evil motives etc. we know what we mean.

the other thing is that post-modern cultural relativism is also suspect to a certain degree aka everything and everybody is ok. do what feels good, do what you want, anything goes.

As for power, I don't really think of it as good or bad either. True power strengthens someone... if it doesn't do that, then it isn't really power, just something that looks like it. Power seems to be one of those things where if you seek it, you'll never get it, you'll only get lost. If you don't seek it, then you will be far more likely to get it, and when/if you do, you won't think of it as "power." I'm becoming increasingly vague, so I'll leave it at that...

power can be used for good or for not so good. pure and simple. there are those that use power responsibly and for the common good and those that use power for themselves and for their personal profit and gain. i agree that we all have true personal power....as i said we are not helpless victims. you're not really that vague though lol i see what you mean.

in a way, we never really know for sure who is using power for good and who is using power for not so good. sometimes we only know in hindsight. in lord of the flies we only start to suspect for sure that power is being used for not so good when somebody gets hurt. but just because we don't really unequivocally know doesn't mean that we should pretend that these games are not being played out. the fact that these games are being played out necessitates faith.

for myself as a christian, since it is nearly impossible to know who is using power for good and who is using power for evil, it then becomes my job to simply live a life of faith and try to keep myself as best i can on a track with God.

as for literal interpretations of the Bible, since i never responded to that piece, i am divided on the issue. mostly i think we should not take everything in the Bible literally. but there are some pieces that i truly believe we can.

[Blaze]

i'm saying that we are a race of little children who have to constantly be reminded to behave and who are very easily manipulated in certain kinds of contexts, especially.

I personally find this a repulsive metaphor. I can't see how any free-thinking person can swallow this without feeling demeaned.

i find your reaction to be overblown and your thinking narrow and your statements inflammatory and rude.

I simply don't take kindly to being talked down to. I'm not a little child and I would never accept any dogma that requires I accept that. Would you accept that kind of rhetoric from your boss at work? Your mate? Your President? Even from your parents once you're older than say 20 years old?

When does god allow you responsibility for your own actions without wagging the finger at you for being a naughty child?

why do you think these comments are directed at you personally? especially when i say "we"? which would appear to include myself, btw. my statement is not dogma...it's my admittedly awkward attempt to try to illustrate a point or to pose a different way of looking at things. if you don't understand this, then i would think you would ask questions instead of making assumptions about motives or intent.

we are all responsible for our own behavior....God has given us free will. and children have free will also. i am reminded of my older daughter complaining that when my younger daughter gets something that it is not fair, why has she not gotten something also. and then i look at my staff who wonder why one person has gotten a raise but not another and how unfair that is. the point is that although we have become more skilled and experienced than children, we do remain children of God.

i forgot to say also that your statements about children imply that somehow adults are better than children, that we are elevated above them, that somehow it is insulting to be called a child. i do not believe this. we all are equal in the eyes of God. we are here to guide each other and to be responsible to each other. some of us have been given greater authority than others, but we are all equal and every soul on the planet is a valuable gem.

[Blaze]

er how exactly is Ghandi evil?

Well, he liked Christ, but he didn't accept him as his Saviour. Therefore, he is going to hell.

that's not how i would define evil.

Someone who is without God is evil...why else would someone be punished for all eternity?

someone who is without God is full of sin and unrepentent. not necessarily evil.

i suppose some christians would say that Ghandi is going to hell. i would say i don't know. we don't really know all of God's plan or how he speaks in all cases. so i would reserve judgement on Ghandi...and also although we know that Ghandi like all of us was sinful, we cannot know whether or not he was unrepentent.

[Ms. Kensington]

i'm saying that we are a race of little children who have to constantly be reminded to behave and who are very easily manipulated in certain kinds of contexts, especially.

I personally find this a repulsive metaphor. I can't see how any free-thinking person can swallow this without feeling demeaned.

i find your reaction to be overblown and your thinking narrow and your statements inflammatory and rude.

I simply don't take kindly to being talked down to. I'm not a little child and I would never accept any dogma that requires I accept that. Would you accept that kind of rhetoric from your boss at work? Your mate? Your President? Even from your parents once you're older than say 20 years old?

When does god allow you responsibility for your own actions without wagging the finger at you for being a naughty child?

An outsider sees this as very Fe based. an ultimate reality would seem to be independent of whether or not you accept the rhetoric, doesn't it?

For myself I find that certain religions do seem to make more sense to certain types. For example, i read somewhere that role Fi makes you think people are fucking idiots and immoral (and if you pushed it, perhaps evil) ones at that. I basically have no faith in people and think they are dirty scumbags. So, that's true of me anyway. So, it's not really hard for me to swallow that something good and universal and true and all these good things would be something above humanity. That's what makes it a God. Why would a god be just like us anyway. Then it wouldn't be a god.

[aka-kitsune]

An outsider sees this as very Fe based. an ultimate reality would seem to be independent of whether or not you accept the rhetoric, doesn't it?

I'm really not sure what you're saying. Ultimate reality? I don't purport to know that. I just don't accept a "daddy" god who supervises all my behavior, period.

[marooned]

Hmm... I'm not sure when it arose... but at some point in my religious ponderings over the years (maybe back when I was around 14) I started having issues with the idea of prostrating myself to, worshipping, humbling myself to, bowing down to, (etc.) any sort of god. I think what fuels this is my rather prideful, arrogant streak. And I don't know if it was my issue with the seemingly patriarchal nature of Christianity (as people had tried to push that on me, and I really didn't like that at all). So I think I rather relate to Aka-kitsune here. I think maybe I believe that "God" isn't supreme over "man" but that "God" is within and a part of "man." To further clarify. If someone came up to me and said "I am God," I would probably reply "yes, you are."

[Blaze]

yes it is hard to humble oneself. it is much more tempting to put our own egos ahead. for myself, i value myself as a creation of God and try to identify my strengths so they can be put to best use for time i am here. but i need to keep humble....in my humility (which i am quite sure i fall short on) comes strength from God.

[Animal]

Whether God exists or not is irrelevant. If we want God to exist, we need only to practice love, forgiveness, and kindness in our own lives. We have a responsibility to be God's presence here on earth. We are where God lives and works - not in the Churches. The reprehensible atrocities of our history and present - war, genocide, rape, murder, despotism - indicate no lack of benevolence on God's part, but a gross indiscretion on our part. What's more, whether the Devil exists or not is irrelevant. Before we can accomplish anything good, we first need to claim responsibility for our own evils.

"It is easy to let the adulation of the Deity make amends for the lack of proper behavior toward men. And so we see that in all time and in all countries, the great majority of mankind find it easier to beg their way into heaven by prayers than to deserve to go there by their actions."
- Arthur Schopenhauer

[Creepy-bg]

Whether God exists or not is irrelevant. If we want God to exist, we need only to practice love, forgiveness, and kindness in our own lives. We have a responsibility to be God's presence here on earth. We are where God lives and works - not in the Churches. The reprehensible atrocities of our history and present - war, genocide, rape, murder, despotism - indicate no lack of benevolence on God's part, but a gross indiscretion on our part. What's more, whether the Devil exists or not is irrelevant. Before we can accomplish anything good, we first need to claim responsibility for our own evils.

"It is easy to let the adulation of the Deity make amends for the lack of proper behavior toward men. And so we see that in all time and in all countries, the great majority of mankind find it easier to beg their way into heaven by prayers than to deserve to go there by their actions."
- Arthur Schopenhauer

+8

[Not A Communist Shill]

I don't need to believe in God or Satan in order to do good things .

[Animal]

I don't need to believe in God or Satan in order to do good things .

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying. "Whether God does or does not exist is irrelevant." I see the concept of God as a metaphor for the physical manifestation of good. Of course, one can have goodness without having God. However, God does not exist where there is no good. To relegate God to some supernatural existence is to render him essentially non-existent.

[Not A Communist Shill]

I don't need to believe in God or Satan in order to do good things .

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying. "Whether God does or does not exist is irrelevant." I see the concept of God as a metaphor for the manifestation of good. Of course, one can have goodness without having God. However, God does not exist where there is no good.

I don't see why someone would need a metaphor of goodness, in order to do good things. If anything, that would make someone less likely to do something good, because they'll think the 'metaphor' will do it.

[Animal]

How can a metaphor do anything? A metaphor is an idea, lol.

I am essentially expounding on Gandhi's "Be the change you wish to see in this world."

[Not A Communist Shill]

How can a metaphor do anything? A metaphor is an idea, lol.

Ah, I see. But some people don't see God as a metaphor, do they? How can you suggest people have a responsibility to a metaphor? That sounds kinda empty.

[Animal]

It isn't empty if you consider everything that the construct of "God" was meant to exemplify for people, in terms of the natural (as opposed to supernatural) world: altruism, love, kindness, peace, etc. One can very well practice these things and in doing so, one is essentially bringing "God" into existence. Likewise, the construct of "evil" is a blanket term to represent many things from mental illness, selfishness, sadism, violence, greed, sexual indiscretion, etc. These are the existence of Satan. Not as some supernatural presence. The designation of both God and Satan to some supernatural forces, outside our control, is IMO irresponsible and cruel (in the case of mental illness).

Of course, you don't need to believe in God or Satan as supernatural beings or even as metaphors. It's just a more poetic way to think about things and a way to think about what these terms actually mean on a deeper level.

[Blaze]

It isn't empty if you consider everything that the construct of "God" was meant to exemplify for people, in terms of the natural (as opposed to supernatural) world: altruism, love, kindness, peace, etc. One can very well practice these things and in doing so, one is essentially bringing "God" into existence. Likewise, the construct of "evil" is a blanket term to represent many things from mental illness, selfishness, sadism, violence, greed, sexual indiscretion, etc. These are the existence of Satan. Not as some supernatural presence. The designation of both God and Satan to some supernatural forces, outside our control, is IMO irresponsible and cruel (in the case of mental illness).

Of course, you don't need to believe in God or Satan as supernatural beings or even as metaphors. It's just a more poetic way to think about things and a way to think about what these terms actually mean on a deeper level.

ok so then we are gods? we are the best threis in the universe? if so the universe is in a world of shiiittt.

[Creepy-bg]

ahhh come-on Blaze, ya can't be that jaded against humanity can ya? We aren't all bad

[aka-kitsune]

It isn't empty if you consider everything that the construct of "God" was meant to exemplify for people, in terms of the natural (as opposed to supernatural) world: altruism, love, kindness, peace, etc. One can very well practice these things and in doing so, one is essentially bringing "God" into existence. Likewise, the construct of "evil" is a blanket term to represent many things from mental illness, selfishness, sadism, violence, greed, sexual indiscretion, etc. These are the existence of Satan. Not as some supernatural presence. The designation of both God and Satan to some supernatural forces, outside our control, is IMO irresponsible and cruel (in the case of mental illness).

Of course, you don't need to believe in God or Satan as supernatural beings or even as metaphors. It's just a more poetic way to think about things and a way to think about what these terms actually mean on a deeper level.

ok so then we are gods? we are the best threis in the universe? if so the universe is in a world of shiiittt.

There is a distinct difference in saying we are all "God" from saying we are all "gods".

[Animal]

if so the universe is in a world of shiiittt.

We have no one to blame but ourselves for that.

[Blaze]

fine. gang up on me then all you hosers.

there ain't no convincin anybody who doesn't want to believe to believe....but i do believe....not all are called by God i guess. :wink:

btw i agree w you for once baby. we do only have ourselves to blame for the state of things.

[Blaze]

It isn't empty if you consider everything that the construct of "God" was meant to exemplify for people, in terms of the natural (as opposed to supernatural) world: altruism, love, kindness, peace, etc. One can very well practice these things and in doing so, one is essentially bringing "God" into existence. Likewise, the construct of "evil" is a blanket term to represent many things from mental illness, selfishness, sadism, violence, greed, sexual indiscretion, etc. These are the existence of Satan. Not as some supernatural presence. The designation of both God and Satan to some supernatural forces, outside our control, is IMO irresponsible and cruel (in the case of mental illness).

Of course, you don't need to believe in God or Satan as supernatural beings or even as metaphors. It's just a more poetic way to think about things and a way to think about what these terms actually mean on a deeper level.

ok so then we are gods? we are the best threis in the universe? if so the universe is in a world of shiiittt.

There is a distinct difference in saying we are all "God" from saying we are all "gods".

yes there is. but we are not God either. the Holy Spirit works through us.

[Blaze]

ahhh come-on Blaze, ya can't be that jaded against humanity can ya? We aren't all bad

no we're just sinners one and all! :-)

[mustachio]

i'm just curious Blaze, what do you consider to be a sin? besides the obvious i mean (i.e. murder, rape, adultery, theft, yadayadayada :wink: ). for example, would you consider gossip a sin? do you consider lying to save your own hide a sin? because, let's face it, sometimes it's just better to do something that's relatively morally wrong. last guys finish last don't they?

i'll make up a scenario. what if some guy decided to enter a relationship with two different women. these two ladies already have boyfriends and aren't aware of each others' existence. now, their involvement in this triangular relation is purely sexual at first. the guy thinks it's okay to have them both because he figures these relations are already "crooked". would you say he's sinning and why?