Results 1 to 36 of 36

Thread: Patient-psychotherapist relationship

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Posts
    4
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Patient-psychotherapist relationship

    What is the best relationship (or very good) for a patient-psychotherapist relationship? ( Identical, Extinguishment, Mirror, Mirage, other?)
    ( I am EII)
    Last edited by Hannnah; 11-24-2019 at 03:46 PM.

  2. #2
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,211
    Mentioned
    1550 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    IDK, but I’d also like to find out.

    Identicals can share information most easily of all types, but their solutions are the same as yours. If your solutions are failing, chances are that theirs will, too.
    The exception would be if your problems stem from not fully realizing your potential as a type. In that case, their best contribution would come from being an example, more than discussing things with you.

    I have a Mirror (ILI) shrink, and his method of thinking is jarring sometimes and his solutions are not solutions. He helps mostly through encouragement.

    I had a Mirage GF (LSI) who offered some insight into my old PTSD, but one insight in three years is not a great track record for a shrink.

    I have never had any insights relating to my psychological problems from my Extinguishment partners (LII). Objective reality insights, yes. Psychological insights, no.

    I met a Benefit shrink who seemed horrible.

    You might want to not choose a shrink based upon ITR’s, but rather just go with a professional IEI who has a great understanding of other people (they almost all do have this on some level) and see if their advice is at all useful.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-24-2019 at 01:11 PM.

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    15,766
    Mentioned
    1404 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    The most trust inspire duals.
    So the more personal contact is important for the method - the more these IR should be useful.

    Also when you tune to dual's personality and partly introject it, this improves the contact with own unconsciousness and this should reduce any neurotic symptoms. The human irrationally feels better and also consciousness may get useful ideas to rationalize and such stabilize this.

    Such psychotherapy may remind more relations of friends than a medicine. Rogers developed in this direction. It may give positive medical results - what was needed.

  4. #4
    thegreenfaerie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Neptune
    Posts
    2,199
    Mentioned
    102 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think my therapist may be my identical and she's helped me more than anyone, though I haven't really been to consistent therapy until now due to either losing insurance/quitting job, moving or the therapist sucking. I've come across some pretty bad/unprofessional therapists and you don't need to have a master's in this state.

    Rogers's style is called person-centered therapy and it's pretty commonly used or at least implemented in therapeutic styles
    Last edited by thegreenfaerie; 11-24-2019 at 02:08 PM.

  5. #5
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Finland
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    4,159
    Mentioned
    305 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    According to the depth psychologists dual is bad. The reason for this is that they cover up your weaknesses too well, so they don't make you grow. Instead they override your inferior (suggestive) function, making you stay in your comfort zone.

    I found the source.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 11-24-2019 at 02:33 PM.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  6. #6
    thegreenfaerie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Neptune
    Posts
    2,199
    Mentioned
    102 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah @Tallmo , to me having a therapist who seems to have more of a grasp and understanding of my own psyche is helpful (potential identical). It helps more to see how someone similar to myself is able to make things work too. Of course any therapist should be empathetic and free of being overly judgmental, which unfortunately, is not always the case. I've heard of and witnessed some wild and harmful stuff. Though, different styles and approaches do work differently for different people.

  7. #7
    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Spontaneous Human Combustion
    TIM
    EIE-C-Ni ™
    Posts
    8,206
    Mentioned
    335 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Your conflictor. In case you have difficulty to show anger... It works and fast and can be done even if the other party does not know about it... so no need for professionals.

    If you want to exchange worldview level information talk with kindred.

    If you want patronizing talk with your supervisor.

    Identicals are usually too uninteresting unless they have something to offer you. Then it will be great.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org

  8. #8
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,211
    Mentioned
    1550 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    Your conflictor. In case you have difficulty to show anger... It works and fast and can be done even if the other party does not know about it... so no need for professionals.

    If you want to exchange worldview level information talk with kindred.

    If you want patronizing talk with your supervisor.

    Identicals are usually too uninteresting unless they have something to offer you. Then it will be great.
    Great post, Heretic 007. Quoted for Posterity.

  9. #9
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Finland
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    4,159
    Mentioned
    305 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If I ever go to a therapist it has to be a Jungian. Because depth psychology has pretty much changed my life and made me realize things I could never have figured out myself.

    The fact that I got into depth psychology is almost enough of a reason for me to seek a therapist. It is that good (or bad). Of course not the only reason.

    I have decided that there are certain challenges I need to take on at this point and that I will not seek a therapist until I've seen how it turns out.

    There are Jungian therapists here where I live, but they are very few. I've met some of them briefly at a seminar. I think they are IEE, ILE, maybe LII and LIE. There can be more of them I am not sure. So I can't be too picky with the type.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,335
    Mentioned
    64 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Idk about dual being bad, I don't know if it's the best though, but at least for me dual advice usually feels like someone confirming the things in the back of my head, like I am hearing solutions that I feel vaguely familiar with but now they are stated clearly, and that's what makes it click("I always knew that but it makes more sense hearing someone say it out loud"). I guess because those thoughts formed in the back of my mind I might not feel so sure or confident about, not knowing if they are the right answer, but hearing someone speak confidently about them and back them up makes me think I'm on the right track and gets rid of alot of anxiety and insecurity about them.
    But yea if they do the work for you then it won't help you get better at it for sure. It just feels like they are telling you something you secretly already know, which for me feels pretty validating.

    Idk, everytime I hear conflictor advice I immediately get exhausted, I will admit conflictor presence can make you a little better without you knowing it, but their advice, nah, it has never worked ime. I can't tell you how many Se filled motivational videos I watched on the internet and just feel completely defeated after watching them instead of motivated "HARD WORK! WORK HARD! PUSH YOURSELF!" as I feel 1D Se cringing in the background, and I don't feel the desire to be that way even though I can be envious of people who are like that, while with Te advice even when overwhelming I still think I need to be that way more while feeling it'll never happen.

    But of course the best would be an identical whose already solved your problem, and their solution might make you face palm and say "DUH!".

  11. #11
    YXPR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    TIM
    INFp / VEFL
    Posts
    245
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Mirrors, Duals and Identicals. In that order.

  12. #12
    Rebelondeck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    1,929
    Mentioned
    175 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    LSEs seem to be able to slap EIIs in the face with doses of reality without making it hurt - if you could ever find one who has chosen psychotherapy as a profession......

    a.k.a. I/O

  13. #13
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,211
    Mentioned
    1550 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    LSEs seem to be able to slap EIIs in the face with doses of reality without making it hurt - if you could ever find one who has chosen psychotherapy as a profession......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Lol. That’s not likely.

    That would be like finding an IEI stock broker.

  14. #14
    Hot Scalding Gayser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The evolved form of Warm Soapy Water
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    14,902
    Mentioned
    661 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    The best therapist I had was probably my Activity partner. I liked her criticisms of me, she wasn't too nice and sweet but she also wasn't a total sadistic asshole either like so many the-rape-ists.

    Many therapists just enjoy being around vulnerable people that need help because they like preying on them. (under the societal illusion that they are 'helping' but really they are just throwing tampons at Carrie with the other girls.) It's a predatory-prey relationship where they get off on you being so honest and open and vulnerable with them but they don't tell you really anything weak about themselves, or the shit they do say is just blue-pill PC crap that protects only them and their career and is never a TRUE vulnerability - that's why I dislike most therapy.

    However I understand that a therapist needs to be more closed off and less open with you and more uh detached or something/as that's kind of a balancing ground for the therapy to actually work. There has to be a top and bottom, so to speak. You are there for therapy after all, you are not there to make a friend or just have somebody agree with you and not challenge you. So I won't say I even liked the LSI I had all that much, but I disliked her the least out of all the others. <g>

  15. #15
    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Spontaneous Human Combustion
    TIM
    EIE-C-Ni ™
    Posts
    8,206
    Mentioned
    335 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Lol. That’s not likely.

    That would be like finding an IEI stock broker.
    LIE kindergarten teacher
    ILE funeral director
    SLE charity worker

    Their destiny intertwines and what could possibly happen...
    Coming this Christmas movie theater near you:
    Countless body count
    Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 11-28-2019 at 12:37 PM.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org

  16. #16
    PinKDiGiT18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    TIM
    EII-1Ne 4w5 sx/so
    Posts
    568
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think this is a very interesting concept.

    Of the counselors I’ve been able to type, I’ve had ILI-Ni, IEE-Ne, and possibly ESI-Fi.

    I got along the best with ESI, although we didn’t actually do much therapy lol. we had more coffee conversations than anything else.

    The ILI was probably the best one as she both listened with care and shared techniques with me. I didn’t get a ton out of our sessions though, so I moved on.

    The IEE was the therapist from hell. She seemed nice initially but then talked over me and invalidated me until I was red in the face and asked to leave.

    My opinion on the best intertypes for therapy?

    It depends on what you’re in need of.

    Most often if you’re in therapy, you’re in need of psychological relief. And for that, a healthy dual is impeccable. An even-subtype mirror may be good as well (I.e. I’m EII-Ne, so an even mirror for me would be IEE-Fi).

    Or you may be trying to understand what your issues are, or what’s at their root. For that, an identical, a lookalike, or a contrary may help. I added Contrary because although they are in the opposite quadra, they understand you on the dimension of rationality and their thought process is complementary to your own (which matters more than you might think!). That plus similar strengths and understanding in my experience puts them in a good position for a healthy therapy relation.

    Or you’re looking to understand what’s going on in an acquaintance or loved one’s head. In general, intuitive types are likely to have a plethora of insight on this due to their natural leaning toward figuring out what makes people tick. However, you may also be looking for efficient ways to deal with people you find difficult, in which case a dual or even-subtype illusionary can psychologically fortify you.

    Or maybe you just want someone to talk to, and vent. For this, I’m inclined to say Illusionary or Beneficiary. Make sure you got a good subtype though.

    Lastly, if you’re in need of some good advice that takes more than your own worldview into account, I’m inclined to say try looking for a semi-dual or benefactor.

    I write this based on my own experiences, so take with a grain of salt. ☺️
    Last edited by PinKDiGiT18; 08-23-2020 at 01:05 AM.

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    TIM
    LSI
    Posts
    47
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    The IEE was the therapist from hell. She seemed nice initially but then talked over me and invalidated me until I was red in the face and asked to leave.
    Most of the "therapists" I've encountered were Deltas who couldn't understand me at all. They spend all this time trying to make me do ridiculous exercises like writing lists of things I like about myself, and other annoying crap. I don't need to learn to count to 10 and take 10 deep breaths like I'm some kind of raging idiot.

    I don't know how to find a therapist that's good for me — or if a therapist is even what I need. Someone suggested I look for a psychoanalyst (someone for helping with unresolved trauma), but that sounds quite expensive for me.

  18. #18
    Haikus Computer Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,431
    Mentioned
    96 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oath of solitude View Post
    Most of the "therapists" I've encountered were Deltas who couldn't understand me at all. They spend all this time trying to make me do ridiculous exercises like writing lists of things I like about myself, and other annoying crap. I don't need to learn to count to 10 and take 10 deep breaths like I'm some kind of raging idiot.
    lmao @ writing a list of things/counting to 10

    i'd say the most ideal should be ur dual/identical that's been through similar situations, have similar cultural backgrounds as u... pretty much really/deeply understand where ur coming from

  19. #19
    Itsme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    TIM
    LIE
    Posts
    290
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Had one or two conversations with an ESI shrink, she wanted to date me, should have done it, but was not ready for relationships this time (maybe she should have worked a bit with me before) chemistry was great, from sexual to psychological, she just did not get me speaking in abstractions which could have been interesting material to analyze from a socionics POV, but i did not know it this time.
    She was also very impressed about my thinking style and style of operating in general, i guess this kind of setting just brings a close personal distance into the game were duality becomes obvious.

    Had another one being ESI or maybe EII/LSI, was also very wholesome.

    Then i had this EII woman, she basically castrated me for Delta values and told me i had BPD instead of letting me accept my giftedness which the ESI before put a great effort into.
    She propably even got the BPD idea from myself because my Te suggesitive was just too convincing to her, bad basis for this if you tend to think of yourself as ill because of a former 'Münchausen by Proxy' treatment.
    Still cause a lot of damage to me, trying to reconcile me with abusive people, automatically taking my ex gfs side and low key guilting me into admitting that 'the relationship was harmful for both of us' instead of naming it as her being abusive and working on fixing that damage.
    So yes, she sucked, i should have fucked the first ESI and for some of them i do not have their types and it is to long ago.

    So to stay on topic, i think same Quadra Relationships in general are the best, they are symmetric and you share valued functions and values in general.
    A therapist from another quadra will most likely steer you into that direction and there is a risk of you being in a asymmetric relationship with them which makes the intearaction potentially more harmful and/or less effective depending on who is in the weaker position.

  20. #20
    Aramas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,263
    Mentioned
    127 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    According to the depth psychologists dual is bad. The reason for this is that they cover up your weaknesses too well, so they don't make you grow. Instead they override your inferior (suggestive) function, making you stay in your comfort zone.

    I found the source.
    I think the depth psychologists are kinda right and wrong here. Duality makes you dependent to some degree but also allows you to develop your strengths which makes you more desirable. So you become kinda dependent and independent at the same time. That's the nature of real interdependence and mutuality. Your dual is the food from which your ego is born.

    Sure, separation causes anxiety and you have to learn to do some things on your own that they did for you, but with a strong and whole ego that's been supported and balanced, you're more likely to succeed. In other words, you leave prepared and on good terms ready to face life.

    Ideas like the ones in that link stem from a mindset that life is supposed to be difficult and austere. And putting two identicals together? That seems like sadism to me, although maybe unconscious.
    Last edited by Aramas; 08-23-2020 at 07:29 PM.

  21. #21
    Aramas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,263
    Mentioned
    127 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    I think this is a very interesting concept.

    Of the counselors I’ve been able to type, I’ve had ILI-Ni, IEE-Ne, and possibly ESI-Fi.

    I got along the best with ESI, although we didn’t actually do much therapy lol. we had more coffee conversations than anything else.

    The ILI was probably the best one as she both listened with care and shared techniques with me. I didn’t get a ton out of our sessions though, so I moved on.

    The IEE was the therapist from hell. She seemed nice initially but then talked over me and invalidated me until I was red in the face and asked to leave.

    My opinion on the best intertypes for therapy?

    It depends on what you’re in need of.

    Most often if you’re in therapy, you’re in need of psychological relief. And for that, a healthy dual is impeccable. An even-subtype mirror may be good as well (I.e. I’m EII-Ne, so an even mirror for me would be IEE-Fi).

    Or you may be trying to understand what your issues are, or what’s at their root. For that, an identical, a lookalike, or a contrary may help. I added Contrary because although they are in the opposite quadra, they understand you on the dimension of rationality and their thought process is complementary to your own (which matters more than you might think!). That plus similar strengths and understanding in my experience puts them in a good position for a healthy therapy relation.

    Or you’re looking to understand what’s going on in an acquaintance or loved one’s head. In general, intuitive types are likely to have a plethora of insight on this due to their natural leaning toward figuring out what makes people tick. However, you may also be looking for efficient ways to deal with people you find difficult, in which case a dual or even-subtype illusionary can psychologically fortify you.

    Or maybe you just want someone to talk to, and vent. For this, I’m inclined to say Illusionary or Beneficiary. Make sure you got a good subtype though.

    Lastly, if you’re in need of some good advice that takes more than your own worldview into account, I’m inclined to say try looking for a semi-dual or benefactor.

    I write this based on my own experiences, so take with a grain of salt. ☺️
    I had a therapist like your IEE one at one point. She constantly contradicted and invalidated me, and always supported the main person I had a problem with. She was either EIE or ILE, or maybe SLI. She had a very soft feeling but steely at the same time. Silk glove that conceals the iron hand. I never really wanted her as a therapist, but she pulled me into her range when I needed some help with necessities to keep attending school. There was a red flag of criticism at the beginning of the relationship, and I didn't feel right about it, but I didn't have a choice if I wanted to get the help offered to students who needed it. She was pretty perfect when it came to meeting all the technical requirements of her job and defending her position, so there was nothing I could have done about what I saw was basically abuse in itself. I came to her taking about how I had basically been fucked with, and she continued fucking with me herself by "trying to get me to see his perspective." Basically. And trying to make me like him. It was probably the most terrible experience I've had with therapy. I'm not inclined to do it again.

    Side note: I've also known an IEE who would totally pretend to be on your side but always gave me the feeling of being on someone else's side and somehow managed to subtly guilt me. Some bitches are good at manipulation. No matter how long I live i doubt I'll ever understand all that crap.
    Last edited by Aramas; 08-23-2020 at 07:37 PM.

  22. #22
    Aramas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,263
    Mentioned
    127 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    The best therapist I had was probably my Activity partner. I liked her criticisms of me, she wasn't too nice and sweet but she also wasn't a total sadistic asshole either like so many the-rape-ists.

    Many therapists just enjoy being around vulnerable people that need help because they like preying on them. (under the societal illusion that they are 'helping' but really they are just throwing tampons at Carrie with the other girls.) It's a predatory-prey relationship where they get off on you being so honest and open and vulnerable with them but they don't tell you really anything weak about themselves, or the shit they do say is just blue-pill PC crap that protects only them and their career and is never a TRUE vulnerability - that's why I dislike most therapy.

    However I understand that a therapist needs to be more closed off and less open with you and more uh detached or something/as that's kind of a balancing ground for the therapy to actually work. There has to be a top and bottom, so to speak. You are there for therapy after all, you are not there to make a friend or just have somebody agree with you and not challenge you. So I won't say I even liked the LSI I had all that much, but I disliked her the least out of all the others. <g>
    So true. Therapy is like an opportunity for endless narcissistic supply. You have someone in the palm of your hand who has already been broken and because of the nature of the relationship has to basically open up to a stranger and be vulnerable to them. It's a recipe for disaster because the client has weak defenses and the therapist doesn't have to be vulnerable themselves. The therapist occupies a position of authority also.

    And yeah the false front of "trying to help" while being thrown to the dogs. I'm familiar with that one. Sometimes think you're better off with Cujo than these little Umbridges. At least everyone knows Cujo is out to get you.

  23. #23
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Finland
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    4,159
    Mentioned
    305 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I think the depth psychologists are kinda right and wrong here. Duality makes you dependent to some degree but also allows you to develop your strengths which makes you more desirable. So you become kinda dependent and independent at the same time. That's the nature of real interdependence and mutuality. Your dual is the food from which your ego is born.

    Sure, separation causes anxiety and you have to learn to do some things on your own that they did for you, but with a strong and whole ego that's been supported and balanced, you're more likely to succeed. In other words, you leave prepared and on good terms ready to face life.
    Well, I am obviously more negative about duality than you. I don't think duals make you grow. They keep you balanced as long as they are present. In therapy it is problematic because the patient needs to develop and solve his problems himself. The dual will just give you the illusion that problems have been solved, but they haven't. When you are on your own again the spell is broken and nothing has changed.

    The thing is that you are not prepared after being with a dual. When you are with a dual you are not even aware of your type weaknesses that much. Duality is a bliss. It's kindof like paradise.

    I know that duality can feel great and all that, so in that way it can have a positive impact.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  24. #24
    Aramas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,263
    Mentioned
    127 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Well, I am obviously more negative about duality than you. I don't think duals make you grow. They keep you balanced as long as they are present. In therapy it is problematic because the patient needs to develop and solve his problems himself. The dual will just give you the illusion that problems have been solved, but they haven't. When you are on your own again the spell is broken and nothing has changed.

    The thing is that you are not prepared after being with a dual. When you are with a dual you are not even aware of your type weaknesses that much. Duality is a bliss. It's kindof like paradise.

    I know that duality can feel great and all that, so in that way it can have a positive impact.
    We just disagree lol. I think the jungians like many others fail at understanding paradox, so they can't see but one perspective. Socionists are a bit too rosy about duality in many cases, and it seems like jungians think of it as the infantilizing devil lol.

    In my own experience, duality has been quite helpful and useful for growth, but also a touch and go kinda thing. I've noticed myself gravitating more in the direction of duals in recent months and years unconsciously by noticing things like that after the fact. It's an intriguing phenomenon. I have had even a few duals want a relationship with me, but I didn't quite feel the chemistry or libido. Duality is a subtle influence because they live in your unconscious. I think also part of the problem is that I had a conflictor dad. Our desires often go back to our parents it's true I've come to think. I feel a powerful drive to ILEs but it ends up being a world of pain if I try to close that distance. Duality would be good but it seems my unconscious hasn't been conditioned to desire it. So those relationships while having a positive effect on my life have nonetheless been fleeting.

    After growing up with a conflictor parent, it's like a part of me has become attached to pain and doesn't want to part with it. I know it sounds weird but that's how it feels. I know it has a negative effect on my health and well-being but it's hard to stop that momentum.

    Duality is more pleasant but it's like the intensity of the dark side emotions in conflict are addicting -- without them I don't feel like I'm alive or exist because I've lived with them so long.

  25. #25
    PinKDiGiT18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    TIM
    EII-1Ne 4w5 sx/so
    Posts
    568
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I had a therapist like your IEE one at one point. She constantly contradicted and invalidated me, and always supported the main person I had a problem with. She was either EIE or ILE, or maybe SLI. She had a very soft feeling but steely at the same time. Silk glove that conceals the iron hand. I never really wanted her as a therapist, but she pulled me into her range when I needed some help with necessities to keep attending school. There was a red flag of criticism at the beginning of the relationship, and I didn't feel right about it, but I didn't have a choice if I wanted to get the help offered to students who needed it. She was pretty perfect when it came to meeting all the technical requirements of her job and defending her position, so there was nothing I could have done about what I saw was basically abuse in itself. I came to her taking about how I had basically been fucked with, and she continued fucking with me herself by "trying to get me to see his perspective." Basically. And trying to make me like him. It was probably the most terrible experience I've had with therapy. I'm not inclined to do it again.

    Side note: I've also known an IEE who would totally pretend to be on your side but always gave me the feeling of being on someone else's side and somehow managed to subtly guilt me. Some bitches are good at manipulation. No matter how long I live i doubt I'll ever understand all that crap.
    Wow. I concur with that last sentence. I hope since then you’ve found better connections and healthier people to aid you. What you described with your IEE is exactly to a T what happened with mine.

  26. #26
    Aramas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,263
    Mentioned
    127 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    Wow. I concur with that last sentence. I hope since then you’ve found better connections and healthier people to aid you. What you described with your IEE is exactly to a T what happened with mine.
    They probably just wanted to collect a paycheck lmao.

  27. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    /
    Posts
    7,044
    Mentioned
    177 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Lol. That’s not likely.

    That would be like finding an IEI stock broker.
    I think you stereotype too much. You can find Delta STs in teaching, counseling and professional development. Some Delta STs care a great deal about and others very much like to teach ().

    I have been to a lot of mental health professionals and generally don't find them helpful. It's because they're not in my life and can't provide active assistance. They can't help me with action. The therapy realm of talking doesn't connect to action because it's like my mind and body are severed.

    Also there's not much variety where I am.

    Mental health in US is like the rest of medicine, it's an industry to make money off patients, and in the true spirit of capitalism that means don't heal them because then they will stop paying. People don't do it intentionally so much as it's the entire system that does it.

  28. #28
    Hot Scalding Gayser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The evolved form of Warm Soapy Water
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    14,902
    Mentioned
    661 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    It's a recipe for disaster because the client has weak defenses and the therapist doesn't have to be vulnerable themselves. The therapist occupies a position of authority also.
    The Regina Hurt person I told you about before would be like 'I am shy about singing in front of a stage. See, everybody has problems. Now then, tell me about the time you were sadistically sexually abused so I can use that against on you and get off on it while pretending to society that I'm a good person.' Like as if experiencing a little stage fright was at the same level of the heavy serious crap she wanted you to reveal. And sadly, her manipulations often worked, because she actually does have a very good external reputation in the superficial by-the-book sense. But yeah it was pretty repulsive. She also would try to anger and emotionally abuse/belittle you enough in hopes that you would assault her so she could then press charges. This one didn't work as much, but it didn't stop her from trying.

    "I really care about you, you can tell me." (minor tells her personal things) "Okay now I am going to try to escalate you to a higher security prison."

    Also @Aramas what you said about identicals being sadistic, I feel that. I think especially male and female IEIs can sort of be sadistic with each other, and it can be dangerously subtle and kind of like socially trying to sabotage each other while having the facade of innocence. Female IEIs have drained my mental health too much where I stay away from them lol. Maybe you could sort of say 'it doesn't work because it's two like charges and putting batteries in a game boy backwards' but it's not quite that simple.



  29. #29

    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    TIM
    ESI 4 sx/sp (459)
    Posts
    251
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I didn't see anyone mention superego relations here yet -- I'm 99% sure that's the intertype I have with my therapist (him an LII). Interestingly I find the IR an avenue through which to imagine how my parents relate to each other, given that they're superegos.

    The usual things about how what you imply, a person in the opposite quadra typically won't pick up on it, that can be tiresome. It doesn't stop me from still trying (to make my meaning known through implication), but on the upside the work that communication takes gives me more appreciation for what communicating the inner contents of your mind to another party can truly involve...

    When I started seeing him I was still in an entanglement with an ILE, his mirror, and I think that that IR was probably useful for him to infer things and then convey them to me. Not like I was seeing the therapist before seeing the ILE, so a LOT of reconstruction and probing was necessary, even though only a three-month timespan had elapsed between the initiation of each relationship.

  30. #30
    Hot Scalding Gayser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The evolved form of Warm Soapy Water
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    14,902
    Mentioned
    661 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I just realized why I also don't like therapy is you have to be submissive for it to work. I actually loathe being submissive tbh. I know that seems backwards, I'm IEI and have a boyish face- I naturally look like some dom Chad just has his way with me but that is more of a playful faux-submission thing where many times I'm the one in control, therapy otoh requires serious mental submission that I can't get into. I think Deltas really like it because they are into BDSM and a lot of BDSM is about a sub being 100% devoted to a Master. If you have 4D Te you also see the benefits more from it because mainstream therapy is a very Te thing... but from my Te polr perspective I find it blah unless I can have the right Fi connection.

    Because of the natural dom-submission thing therapy has a whole bunch of rules the Master has to follow. This is done under the guise of being moral and fair and balanced etc. The thing is I don't trust people to truly respect those rules if they don't want, or they meet a submissive that won't fight back. Therapists for example aren't supposed to ever talk with other people via what their patients say to them, a rule to naturally keep "Masters" in check - but they all end up blabbering and gossip about what that person tells them anyway. I'm not talking about the things they have to report by law, just everything. They can easily twist that legal loophole to their own advantage if they want to gossip without getting caught anyway.

    And submissives don't fight back or want to fight back- obviously, that's what makes them submissive and why Deltas often have such a hard-on for it.

  31. #31
    Will we start over, or circle the drain crazymaisy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SE USA
    TIM
    ILI-Ni GAMMA NH-c
    Posts
    643
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Being ILI and having a relationship with God is all I need.
    Maisy
    ILI-Ni (INTp)
    I think in pictures, moving pictures...

    Recommended Music - ILI-Ni



    "And one peculiar point I see,
    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
    Inside out, outside in, inside out, outside in,
    Perpetual change"


    Yes - The Yes Album - from "Perpetual Change" (written by Howe and Squire)

  32. #32
    Will we start over, or circle the drain crazymaisy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SE USA
    TIM
    ILI-Ni GAMMA NH-c
    Posts
    643
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    God listens, I don't hear things audibly back, so, all's good.
    Maisy
    ILI-Ni (INTp)
    I think in pictures, moving pictures...

    Recommended Music - ILI-Ni



    "And one peculiar point I see,
    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
    Inside out, outside in, inside out, outside in,
    Perpetual change"


    Yes - The Yes Album - from "Perpetual Change" (written by Howe and Squire)

  33. #33

    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    TIM
    ESI 4 sx/sp (459)
    Posts
    251
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazaam View Post
    I just realized why I also don't like therapy is you have to be submissive for it to work. I actually loathe being submissive tbh. I know that seems backwards, I'm IEI and have a boyish face- I naturally look like some dom Chad just has his way with me but that is more of a playful faux-submission thing where many times I'm the one in control, therapy otoh requires serious mental submission that I can't get into. I think Deltas really like it because they are into BDSM and a lot of BDSM is about a sub being 100% devoted to a Master. If you have 4D Te you also see the benefits more from it because mainstream therapy is a very Te thing... but from my Te polr perspective I find it blah unless I can have the right Fi connection.

    Because of the natural dom-submission thing therapy has a whole bunch of rules the Master has to follow. This is done under the guise of being moral and fair and balanced etc. The thing is I don't trust people to truly respect those rules if they don't want, or they meet a submissive that won't fight back. Therapists for example aren't supposed to ever talk with other people via what their patients say to them, a rule to naturally keep "Masters" in check - but they all end up blabbering and gossip about what that person tells them anyway. I'm not talking about the things they have to report by law, just everything. They can easily twist that legal loophole to their own advantage if they want to gossip without getting caught anyway.

    And submissives don't fight back or want to fight back- obviously, that's what makes them submissive and why Deltas often have such a hard-on for it.
    Interesting--I'm glad you brought up the power dynamic, I do find that to be an important element to be aware of in a long-term (or even shorter-term, for that matter) therapeutic relationship. I've disagreed with my therapist openly several times, yet it can still be hard to really make myself understood in the way that I want-- but maybe that's just because I can't convince an LII of something logical-seeming very well? It can be tricky, I've thought about bringing up again different things I disagree with him on, but not sure that it's necessary. Anyway, I'm pulling back a little bit from him/the therapeutic relationship, intentionally.

    I do agree that mainstream therapy has a Te acceptance, maybe especially forms like CBT?

    edit- LIIs probably arent super receptive in general to ethics corrections from ESIs, especially because of our Ne polr. I can sense that and i think that's why i tread kinda lightly too, though the differences in perspective/interpretation can really be shocking. O_O
    Last edited by spacious; 01-05-2022 at 05:28 AM.

  34. #34

    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    TIM
    ILI - H/C 4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    673
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't ever need a psychotherapist. Even in the darkest time I'm still believe in myself that I can go through it. I don't want to rely on others (psychologically) to survive in this world. (I do need other people materially)

    But I have one ILI who I consider as my mentor. Indentical relationship work well as teacher-student when they are older and wiser than you. My pov get influenced by his pov alot.

    Teacher give student the tools, but the students have to solve their problems by themself with the tools given to them. If you can't solve your own internal problems, no one can.
    Last edited by Tarnished; 01-05-2022 at 06:24 AM.

  35. #35

    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    TIM
    ESI 4 sx/sp (459)
    Posts
    251
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i've made a couple of kind of dumb venting posts on the forum lately regarding my dissatisfaction w my relship w my therapist. Thinking about it, the time may have come to 'break up' w him. We've worked together for nearly 3 years, so i don't think i'm putting in the towel too early or anything. But i had time to myself over winter break after the hubbub of last semester and interestingly i didnt miss sessions with him one bit. now that we've been back in session in january, i find that we've discussed little of substance that is of importance to me, and i basically struggle to find things that i wish to say to him. the convos become more like passing the time small talk or speculation which i s'pose is fine but i do not find helpful/productive. may even be counterpro if the self-disclosure i do do then inhibits/prevents me from deepening relships w others in my life w/ whom the relship is naturally more mutual, than it is hierarchially in therapy. ok well, ill sleep on it and see how tomorrow goes, i see him then.

    ps thrilled that i was able to track down the document i made to guide me in stopping seeing a previous therapist who told me that he could be my 'time management coach', years ago. my fi looves to be able to compile the specifics of these relational moves over time. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3.

    also, I don't feel the desire to look for a new therapist anytime soon. Think i've grown a lot and it'll be nice to be without that space for the time being. talk more to other people.... (ha, incl here, for now.)
    Last edited by spacious; 02-01-2022 at 07:14 AM.

  36. #36
    Stray Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    816
    Mentioned
    107 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Interesting.

    I would choose Identical relations simply because they make can cool teachers & are exemplary of what you can achieve it in life.

    Assuming one desires psychotherapy to improve his/herself, it stands to reason that one's identical relation has the greatest potential to motivate one in an optimal direction.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •