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Thread: Heaven, Hell and Purgatory

  1. #41
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    More from Maria Simma, same link:

    Suffering - it has value, importance, and meaning*

    Maria Simma tells us the following story:

    "A very important thing is to accept before you die all the suffering that God has sent us.

    I know of a woman and a priest who were in the same hospital with tuberculosis. The woman said to the priest, "I have asked the Lord to give me the opportunity to do my purgatory here while I am still alive."
    To this the priest replied: "I dare not ask for that." and right at this moment there was a nun who had been there listening to this conversation.

    When they both had died from tuberculosis, the priest appeared to the nun in a vision and told her that the woman had gone directly to heaven, while he had to spend a lot more time in purgatory for not accepting his suffering and offering it to God in reparation for his sins.

    Here God gives us the importance of the value of our sufferings are offered with love. The sufferings of the earth are worth far more in reparation for our sins compared to the sufferings of purgatory. For this reason, a major illness before dying can in reality be a great blessing and grace of God."


    I think this is one of the most valuable things I learned, of so many valuable things, after becoming Catholic, because I had never heard it before. Suffering has a high meaning. It does not need to be senseless. It can have value, great value.

    _____________________________________
    *Every suffering of Jesus was efficacious and had meaning and great value. Because of Him, whom we imitate, so also our sufferings can be efficacious, have meaning, and be of great value.
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    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Tell us about Hell, Eliza. I suspect you have insights on the place of eternal torment that might surprise some of us.

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    c esi-se 6w7 spsx ashlesha's Avatar
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    I self-identify (lol) as Christian these days but I think most would say that I'm not, actually. My indifference towards the concept of afterlife is a tiny piece of that, though. (The biggest reason is that I think God is too incomprehensibly omniscient to quibble over the fact that the culture you were born into steered you into Jesus versus some other path, but that's not what what this thread is about.) Anyway, what steered me into religion (in the right way or wrong way) at all is coming close to death, but I prepare myself for the misinterpretation if I'm gonna mention that because it's generally understood as an attempt to avoid death, but it was more like I had an arm behind the curtain hiding secrets and I was like woah, anything back here!?! *wiggle*

    Heaven is cute and I can endorse it in a wishful thinking way and the idea of some generally positive field that contains your presence after your death is a little believable but I acknowledge my bias towards thinking so, lol. As for Hell..I just can't buy it, because of my view of an entity of love being the backdrop (bad things do happen anyway, but for eternity is a bit much). In contrast, it's too easy to conceptualize Hell in terms of the convenience it holds for humans with power on earth and their bargaining/bribing ability.

  4. #44
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I self-identify (lol) as Christian these days but I think most would say that I'm not, actually.
    I think that your having that identity is a blessing and grace!


    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    My indifference towards the concept of afterlife is a tiny piece of that, though. (The biggest reason is that I think God is too incomprehensibly omniscient to quibble over the fact that the culture you were born into steered you into Jesus versus some other path, but that's not what what this thread is about.)
    A person seeking goodness and truth will find it no matter their culture. God says, "If you seek me, you will find me." It applies to everyone. A person avoiding goodness and truth will find ways to avoid it, in any culture. Even in a culture that we judge to be abundant in opportunities to know God, a person can live amidst that and choose again and again to avoid every single opportunity to know God. God respects the free will that He gave us, and does not violate that to impose Himself on us. The avoidant one may be that way on purpose, which doesn't bode well, or, he may be so because of internal reasons we can't know. Only God can judge because only He knows every single thing about every single one of us.


    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Anyway, what steered me into religion (in the right way or wrong way) at all is coming close to death, but I prepare myself for the misinterpretation if I'm gonna mention that because it's generally understood as an attempt to avoid death, but it was more like I had an arm behind the curtain hiding secrets and I was like woah, anything back here!?! *wiggle*
    Wow, so you came near death? I wonder how/what that situation was, and what it made you think?


    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Heaven is cute and I can endorse it in a wishful thinking way and the idea of some generally positive field that contains your presence after your death is a little believable but I acknowledge my bias towards thinking so, lol. As for Hell..I just can't buy it, because of my view of an entity of love being the backdrop (bad things do happen anyway, but for eternity is a bit much). In contrast, it's too easy to conceptualize Hell in terms of the convenience it holds for humans with power on earth and their bargaining/bribing ability.
    God and Heaven are all good. Hell, all of the opposite. Earth, the mixed bag. Earth has an end, Heaven and Hell have no end. Immediately when we die, we will have full knowledge of God and of ourselves, and we go to one of the two eternal destinations. But did you know that WE CHOOSE our eternal destination? Mystics and Saints consistently say that ALL those in Hell actually CHOOSE it for themselves.

    We have all heard of persons who say, "I want to end up in hell because all of my friends are there." But on earth there are all the good people to enjoy taking advantage of, to endeavor to ruin, and to hate, and get the upper hand over. And in hell there is complete and total absence of good, and all their companions for eternity only want to torture and hurt others. Every single one of them, forever. It is baffling that people choose it, when God, who is perfectly just, has revealed exactly what it is to them before they choose. But I guess what you came to love on earth - evil, selfishness, hate of God and of good - you also want to choose for your FOREVER.

    Yes, God truly is, as you say, an entity of all love. Perfect love. He is also perfect justice. (He is either just or unjust. It is impossible that He could be a bit of each. And He can't be unjust, because then He could not also be love!)
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    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    What if we are guided to just judge ourselves in the afterlife...

    What if we are here on earth to learn lessons and can re emerge on the planet after passing for lessons not yet learnt...

    What if some children can remember for a tiny period part of a previous life...

    What if all religions are one and the same and time will prove this...


    Haven’t read this thread, just passing through...

  6. #46
    Farewell, comrades Not A Communist Shill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Yes, God truly is, as you say, an entity of all love. Perfect love. He is also perfect justice. (He is either just or unjust. It is impossible that He could be a bit of each. And He can't be unjust, because then He could not also be love!)
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    To those who have experienced puppies, this is a hollow claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I can't actually remember the things I supposedly pointed out in another thread that @Eliza Thomason didn't want to think about.

    @Eliza Thomason

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  9. #49
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    LOL Subteigh, are you telling me that you are identifying most with Judas Iscariot?

    But not funny really because I often feel you have a fascination/attraction to hell, which is where Judas is, forever. It is really bad, and it is forever, and you really want to be happy in Heaven forever. I pray for that for you.

    Judas is a really interesting figure though. But tragic, so horrible. His poor mother.

    I really liked that opera, and only later learned it was has a lot of bad theology. But it actually brings some people to the Lord, and, well different strokes for different folks. There was some truth in it, and people are attracted to the truth.
    (Unless they are purposely hiding from it, that is).
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  10. #50
    Farewell, comrades Not A Communist Shill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    LOL Subteigh, are you telling me that you are identifying most with Judas Iscariot?

    But not funny really because I often feel you have a fascination/attraction to hell, which is where Judas is, forever. It is really bad, and it is forever, and you really want to be happy in Heaven forever. I pray for that for you.

    Judas is a really interesting figure though. But tragic, so horrible. His poor mother.

    I really liked that opera, and only later learned it was has a lot of bad theology. But it actually brings some people to the Lord, and, well different strokes for different folks. There was some truth in it, and people are attracted to the truth.
    (Unless they are purposely hiding from it, that is).
    The video I linked is a fictional representation of a fictional character. I certainly find more sound argument in it than in the bible.

    According to the New Testament myth, without Judas Iscariot, there would be no salvation for ANYBODY.

    I find torture to be fundamentally immoral, for any length of time.

    You should ask yourself when you preach the Gospel whether you are intending to make the world a better place or not. In my view, if you defend torture, you cannot claim to be making the world a better place. Is there anything worse than torture? In my view, I cannot think of anything worse, which would make your God the very embodiment of evil if I regarded evil as a meaningful concept: for an omnipotent being - with absolute power and knowledge - to practice torture could only therefore be the sentient embodiment of evil in my view.

    Christians damn Judas for "betraying" Jesus - even though Jesus wanted it to happen, and even though the story required it (quite why is a mystery - the gospels make it clear that Jesus was well-known in the area and could have been identified without Judas). Also, they damn Judas for committing suicide, even though Jesus himself did so: "I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself." - John 10:17-18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    LOL Subteigh, are you telling me that you are identifying most with Judas Iscariot?

    But not funny really because I often feel you have a fascination/attraction to hell, which is where Judas is, forever. It is really bad, and it is forever, and you really want to be happy in Heaven forever. I pray for that for you.

    Judas is a really interesting figure though. But tragic, so horrible. His poor mother.

    I really liked that opera, and only later learned it was has a lot of bad theology. But it actually brings some people to the Lord, and, well different strokes for different folks. There was some truth in it, and people are attracted to the truth.
    (Unless they are purposely hiding from it, that is).
    Also, I re-quoted the post with the video regarding this specific point: "I can't actually remember the things I supposedly pointed out in another thread that @Eliza Thomason didn't want to think about."

    If you could mention them, then we could talk about them.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Hi Subteigh, this is an interesting discussion but my weekdays are tight to achieve time on the weekend; have to get up so early to miss traffic (ten hour a week commute) .. must make myself go to bed - last rosary of the day today will be especially for YOU. Our Lady is on your case, Subteigh! I will respond later; I won't forget.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    I've been to all three.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Hi Subteigh, this is an interesting discussion but my weekdays are tight to achieve time on the weekend; have to get up so early to miss traffic (ten hour a week commute) .. must make myself go to bed - last rosary of the day today will be especially for YOU. Our Lady is on your case, Subteigh! I will respond later; I won't forget.
    I suggest it isn't worth your time replying to me especially in the circumstances. You may disagree however thinking that having an open discussion may result in some people being converted to your cause, whatever that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Hi Subteigh, this is an interesting discussion but my weekdays are tight to achieve time on the weekend; have to get up so early to miss traffic (ten hour a week commute) .. must make myself go to bed - last rosary of the day today will be especially for YOU. Our Lady is on your case, Subteigh! I will respond later; I won't forget.
    I don't know why you'd pray to a dead person who didn't exist, especially when the New Testament makes it clear that Jesus is the "only" intercessor between his followers and "God".

  16. #56
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I suggest it isn't worth your time replying to me especially in the circumstances. You may disagree however thinking that having an open discussion may result in some people being converted to your cause, whatever that is.
    "...your cause..." Apparently you think I have one? Truth-seeking is a cause I hold. And I sometimes wrongly project onto others that they are also truth seeking. I think when you, Subteigh, argue in defense of falsehoods, I sometimes assume there is a sincerity under that, and I want to respond to that. But it truly is a waste of my time if that sincerity is only a figment of my imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Also, I re-quoted the post with the video regarding this specific point: "I can't actually remember the things I supposedly pointed out in another thread that @Eliza Thomason didn't want to think about."

    If you could mention them, then we could talk about them.
    I have no idea what this was about. You say that I'd said I didn't want to think about it, so evidently I didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The video I linked is a fictional representation of a fictional character. I certainly find more sound argument in it than in the bible.

    According to the New Testament myth, without Judas Iscariot, there would be no salvation for ANYBODY.
    What an insult that you should say to me that the Gospel is a "myth". You are saying, "If you want to talk with me then I will insult your most deeply held beliefs." Got it.

    You have some prior exposure to lame heretical theology. You show no intention of ever opening your mind to any new considerations of what you swallowed whole upon reception. Quite a stumbling block to your ever getting to truth. But then, maybe you don't want to.

    No intelligent mind can consider Judas Iscariot a cause of salvation.

    How can anyone twist up theology to say things that make no sense?

    Sin. Sin dulls the mind and undermines intelligence.

    You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I find torture to be fundamentally immoral, for any length of time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    In my view, if you defend torture, you cannot claim to be making the world a better place. Is there anything worse than torture? In my view, I cannot think of anything worse, which would make your God the very embodiment of evil if I regarded evil as a meaningful concept: for an omnipotent being - with absolute power and knowledge - to practice torture could only therefore be the sentient embodiment of evil in my view.
    You pontificate but you are no pontiff. You are a hypocrite. You defend the free choice of the violent, tortured deaths of pre-born babies, as they silently scream in the womb, and writhe to escape the whirling saws of the abortionists as their bodies are cut to bits. Perhaps, like Kamala, you also support the tortured death of post-born babies? You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth here becasue you clearly do not think that ALL torture is bad. The torture of innocent babies seems to hold some greater good in your mind!

    You have an abominable lack of humility to question God Himself, who is perfectly good, perfectly just, and a LOT smarter than you. Hell exists, and nothing exists without God, so there must be some good, some perfect justice to it, or it wouldn't be. But it does exist, and many are there now and many on earth now will be there for eternity. If you don't like that the eternal torture of the damned is a reality, remember that God's mind is a LOT bigger than yours, and you actually DON'T know everything. Imagine. God is perfect, and you are not. If it doesn't make sense to your little mind then SEEK UNDERSTANDING! Seek, and you will find.

    The reverse is true. Don't seek, and you won't find. But this kind of ignorance does not lead to bliss.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    What's exactly the point of Christianity? To tell other people what is right and enforce what is right? To feel good or have hope when things go bad? To justify life and all its seeming randomness? To want an afterlife of eternal bliss where "immorals" can't go? That's all very selfish...that's probably the greatest sin of all, or maybe the only real sin...Christians disappoint me. At least the Buddhists seem to be on to something...
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    What's exactly the point of Christianity?
    From John 3:16; For God so Loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    The point of Christianity is proclaiming this ^^ gospel message ^^ to others, and reinforcing it through how we live (more on that later)...

    Basically, since we are all sinners, we deserve eternal punishment and death after this life. However, since God loved humanity so much, he sent his son Jesus to die for the sins of the world. He died, and rose again.

    By believing in Jesus, and having in faith in him alone, we are saved.

    So it's not about "the stuff" we do, or following rules, or doing this or that. No. The work was already done by Jesus.

    It's about removing ME, and I, actually, and focusing on what Jesus did for us / and what he can do for us by trusting him with every aspect of our lives.

    That's it. All the extra stuff you hear about are all misconceptions.

    To tell other people what is right and enforce what is right? To feel good or have hope when things go bad?
    To justify life and all its seeming randomness? To want an afterlife of eternal bliss where "immorals" can't go? That's all very selfish...that's probably the greatest sin of all, or maybe the only real sin
    These are all misconceptions / secondary / a byproduct of Christianity, but not the primary point
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 10-31-2020 at 11:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    By believing in Jesus, and having in faith in him alone, we are saved.
    bro, think about how creepy that sounds...how does that even make sense? What does having faith in Jesus mean exactly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    bro, think about how creepy that sounds...how does that even make sense? What does having faith in Jesus mean exactly?
    Lol, sorry bro if I sounded a bit like I was speaking in Christianese...

    But yeah, let's see, having faith in Jesus...

    When a person has faith in Jesus, it means that he or she believes who Jesus is (God in human form) and trusts what Jesus has done (died and resurrected). This faith in the person and work of Christ is what saves. (also this faith may inspire one to do good works/good things, the stereotypical things you hear about Christianity)

    Again, God sent Jesus to die for the sin's of the world, so in response to God's love, is belief (or faith).

    Without faith in Jesus, we remain in sin and cannot be accepted into God’s presence in His perfect heaven. With faith in Jesus, we are given this access as God’s own children.

    To have faith in Jesus is to reject all other ways of salvation. It's not Jesus + Other stuff. It's Jesus + Nothing. We trust in Jesus alone. Salvation is exclusive. Jesus is the only way.

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    Yeah I mean, tbh I think Christianity for most Americans ends up about getting to go to Heaven and then smugly looking down at people you never liked in Hell. ie homophobic Christians fantasize about watching homosexuals being tortured in Hell while they laugh at them and can eternally enjoy their own smug superiority. It's about getting a sadistic rise in viewing people you think should be tortured forever.

    Maybe it has some good points. Like anything else. However in a realistic sense, it's obviously just as sadistic to gleefully watch somebody being tortured forever even if you think they deserve it. ((note I said 'forever' it's not that bad if you want to watch it for a little bit as that's just part of the justice process.))

    Like your own campy example of a person who tortured innocent babies being tortured in Hell as a punishment. It makes people feel very good thinking they are being tortured forever in Hell because of it. But this isn't actually a 'correction' or a moral good- it's just an emotional impulse that makes us feel better at a villain getting their comeuppance. And it doesn't even really take into account most pedophiles were also once victims that were abused and groomed themselves. It's very emotionally & ethically simplistic even tho on paper it might seem super just and 'right.' Bad people deserve bad right?

    But 'forever' is such a long time. Even if God does think they deserve such a fate, I would think it would also be ethical for these smug self-rigeteous "Christians" to not be able to witness it and not receive indirect sadistic pleasure from it while getting foot massages in Heaven from Mexicans.

    This doesn't mean that we should all be super soft liberal la de dah about crime or anything, I mean- some people probably do deserve to be killed for their heinous immoral actions. But killing them once is sufficient enough to protect society from them, having some fantasy where they are killed over and over in your own mind so you can feel better and like you're "more good" - I don't get how that's really 'righteous' or makes you actually more "good" then them or anything. Remember what Cercei said to Septa Unella?

    That's why we draw a line in the sand the difference between "justice" and "revenge", right? If anything to me, it makes the person just as bad or worse- which is why most judges and authority figures should be trusted as much as most criminals. They send a bad guy to prison for the rest of their lives and then also masturbate at night to the fact that they're being punished in Hell long after they die- and then have stuck-up fantasies where God will 'reward them more than most people' just because they never cracked a smile in their entire lives and try to exploit the middle and lower classes from buying their shitty crime novels. They all tend to scapegoat Lust as being a worse sin than Greed, but their own shitty Greed has also fucked up lives and families.

    It is a worship of sadism (and real satanism) disguised as something Heavenly.

    Even if you're not like this, what makes a person think they're so special that they can ascend to Heaven and ignore all the suffering and pain in the world. There was a Buffy comic like this lol, she had the choice go to Heaven and just live happily forever and she said "No wait, I can't. I have friends down there. I have to help them." And she sacrificed her own happiness to help others, like she always does. That to me is more righteous and just then some lazy POS pretending to be "good" so they can get some spoiled Hotel Room in the sky (with a beautifully immaculate sky-view of sinful homosexuals being chopped up all the time for their own self-righteous viewing pleasure)
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  22. #62
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    bro, think about how creepy that sounds...how does that even make sense? What does having faith in Jesus mean exactly?
    One thing about it not making sense to us is that it is a proof that man didn't a make it up... it doesn't' suit our pride.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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  23. #63
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Yeah I mean, tbh I think Christianity for most Americans ends up about getting to go to Heaven and then smugly looking down at people you never liked in Hell.
    One can be saved and have such thoughts in one mind but how ashamed they will feel when they meet God who knows all their thoughts, who loves every single soul, and longs to be with each and every erring person in Heaven for eternity. If they die having lived life on earth with such thoughts and not learned how to love as God loves then they will have a long time in purgatory to learn what they could have learned on earth, by cooperating with the grace of God in their life.


    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    ie homophobic Christians fantasize about watching homosexuals being tortured in Hell while they laugh at them and can eternally enjoy their own smug superiority. It's about getting a sadistic rise in viewing people you think should be tortured forever.
    Aw, do you really think so? I have never met any Christians like this. I have never seen this ugliness you describe in any Christian towards homosexuals, and I have known very many! Resentment towards the agendas activists force on society - yes, grumbling against that - but never rancor towards homosexual persons themselves.

    And I have never met a single Christian who had ANY joy in seeing evil people in Hell. No Christian could express such a thought to another Christian, who would be horrified by it. We are called to be like Christ and this is so obviously UN Christlike because we know Jesus loves and died for our personal enemies, too. So anyone harboring such thoughts would have to keep it to themselves. We see it as a miracle of God that a person who has chosen evil all their life at the last minute repents and believes Christ for their salvation. We know there is a great rejoicing in Heaven for every soul saved. Every last one matters to Christ and since we are of Him we want what He wants.



    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Maybe it has some good points. Like anything else. However in a realistic sense, it's obviously just as sadistic to gleefully watch somebody being tortured forever even if you think they deserve it. ((note I said 'forever' it's not that bad if you want to watch it for a little bit as that's just part of the justice process.))
    Yes, forever is a long time. We all know what forever is, and we will all always find it horrific that some will suffer forever. We don't understand God's justice but we know He is perfect. We know God's ways are not our ways, and He has created all of reality for a reason even if we can't comprehend it. So even if we don't understand eternal torture in hell, we know it is just.

    One thing I have contemplated on is that what makes evil so much fun for evil people on earth is the good people they taker advantage of and commit offenses against. Good people who love God and want to be pleasing to God will be completely absent from Hell and that is what makes it Hell. Those who desire all-good will be gone. People apparently choose hell. Because I think they got so used to considering evil to be good that it becomes what they desire to move towards, and so they choose it. The people they admire are there, and the lord of their loves is there.

    from the Baltimore Catechism:
    "3. Why did God make us? God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in Heaven."


    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Like your own campy example of a person who tortured innocent babies being tortured in Hell as a punishment. It makes people feel very good thinking they are being tortured forever in Hell because of it. But this isn't actually a 'correction' or a moral good- it's just an emotional impulse that makes us feel better at a villain getting their comeuppance. And it doesn't even really take into account most pedophiles were also once victims that were abused and groomed themselves. It's very emotionally & ethically simplistic even tho on paper it might seem super just and 'right.' Bad people deserve bad right?
    I don't think I saw this example; not sure what you are referring to. But we know that we displease God and are separated from Him by entertaining thoughts of wishing vengeance on anyone. We are to leave all vengeance to God, who says, "Vengeance is Mine". He is perfect love, perfect mercy, and perfect judge so only He can judge.

    Also Jesus tells through parable that the one who spent his entire life doing good can get the very same reward as one spent his life living for self and doing evil but who believed and tried to be as God would have him to be only at the very last moment before death.

    Jesus tells us that His will for us is that we love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Jesus says, "If you love me, you will do my will."


    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    This doesn't mean that we should all be super soft liberal la de dah about crime or anything, I mean- some people probably do deserve to be killed for their heinous immoral actions. But killing them once is sufficient enough to protect society from them, having some fantasy where they are killed over and over in your own mind so you can feel better and like you're "more good" - I don't get how that's really 'righteous' or makes you actually more "good" then them or anything. Remember what Cercei said to Septa Unella?

    That's why we draw a line in the sand the difference between "justice" and "revenge", right? If anything to me, it makes the person just as bad or worse- which is why most judges and authority figures should be trusted as much as most criminals. They send a bad guy to prison for the rest of their lives and then also masturbate at night to the fact that they're being punished in Hell long after they die- and then have stuck-up fantasies where God will 'reward them more than most people' just because they never cracked a smile in their entire lives and try to exploit the middle and lower classes from buying their shitty crime novels. They all tend to scapegoat Lust as being a worse sin than Greed, but their own shitty Greed has also fucked up lives and families.

    It is a worship of sadism (and real satanism) disguised as something Heavenly.
    You are right, it would be awful if people felt this way, but this is not Christlike at all. A person who thinks like this is miserable. We are called to forgive even one who commits a heinous crime against our own child...

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Even if you're not like this, what makes a person think they're so special that they can ascend to Heaven and ignore all the suffering and pain in the world. There was a Buffy comic like this lol, she had the choice go to Heaven and just live happily forever and she said "No wait, I can't. I have friends down there. I have to help them." And she sacrificed her own happiness to help others, like she always does. That to me is more righteous and just then some lazy POS pretending to be "good" so they can get some spoiled Hotel Room in the sky (with a beautifully immaculate sky-view of sinful homosexuals being chopped up all the time for their own self-righteous viewing pleasure)
    I like your example of generosity. I have actually seen this expressed many times by people who have experienced heaven either in a near death experience or in a vision, and they always love it so much they loathe to return to earth, but they choose to do it to help save souls for Jesus, or to bring Jesus to people who need them, like to be kindness and love in a place that lacks it.

    God knows who desires heaven for the wrong reason or in the wrong way. There is a place for those who die thinking this way and making no progress towards perfection - purgatory. Yes, such a person wouldn't fit in Heaven which is all about love, and what you described isn't love. It wouldn't b e happy for them, so it wouldn't be Heaven for them. So they go first where they can learn love.

    Matthew 7:21-23
    King James Version
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    BandD I think you love good and will therefore be drawn to God, if you don't consider yourself to be already.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  24. #64
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    @Eliza Thomason

    How do you realistically "forgive" things like child sexual abuse. I can't forgive it. People misunderstand me a lot and think I'm too soft on sexual crime but I feel the same rage and heartache at children being abused by predators as any heteronormative ST Delta trucker in his trailer. My instinct is to just really torture them forever I think - so I know I have my own hypocrises. I myself have a hard time forgiving such a thing. How do you think we should do it?

    And yuck at all the state officials & politicians wanting to prey on kids under the guise of "protecting them." Blech! Let's start a Beta/Delta morality tag team against them?

    How do you forgive and let go of something like that when the natural human response is "kill for being evil." ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Again, God sent Jesus to die for the sin's of the world, so in response to God's love, is belief (or faith).
    First, how exactly did Jesus die for the sin's of the world? "Sin" still exists. What does that even mean?
    Second, why does it matter if we have faith? I think I can recognize things that could be called sin, without needing faith. This seems to imply we can only be good by having faith in the Christian God or that being good is necessary for the Christian God's love or that we even need or want a God's love. Why should we?

    Without faith in Jesus, we remain in sin and cannot be accepted into God’s presence in His perfect heaven. With faith in Jesus, we are given this access as God’s own children.
    Why would someone want to be in God's presence? I'm sure some people don't. And this Heaven, who cares. Maybe suffering is necessary to appreciate the good. Maybe some people need to suffer to feel alive. Maybe life is pretty random and it just needs to be accepted to deal with it. Why are Christians so obsessed with this mystical form of perfection of Heaven? It's kind of OCD and I can't see how that's spiritually healthy.

    To have faith in Jesus is to reject all other ways of salvation. It's not Jesus + Other stuff. It's Jesus + Nothing. We trust in Jesus alone. Salvation is exclusive. Jesus is the only way.
    It does not make sense that a "good" God, which is often the Christian God depiction, would want people to be intolerant of other ways to get "salvation". The Christian God shouldn't care as long as the person is "good". And if God just wants people to have "faith" or believes faith is necessary to do good or be good, then that's the Christian God's own sin/problem, and not any fault of our own. This is odd that faith is somehow the answer to everything in Christianity. They just want as many followers as they can get...
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    One thing about it not making sense to us is that it is a proof that man didn't a make it up... it doesn't' suit our pride.
    One thing about it not making sense to us is that it is a proof that man made it up... it doesn't suit our pride.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





  27. #67
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    @Eliza Thomason

    How do you realistically "forgive" things like child sexual abuse. I can't forgive it. People misunderstand me a lot and think I'm too soft on sexual crime but I feel the same rage and heartache at children being abused by predators as any heteronormative ST Delta trucker in his trailer. My instinct is to just really torture them forever I think - so I know I have my own hypocrises. I myself have a hard time forgiving such a thing. How do you think we should do it?

    And yuck at all the state officials & politicians wanting to prey on kids under the guise of "protecting them." Blech! Let's start a Beta/Delta morality tag team against them?

    How do you forgive and let go of something like that when the natural human response is "kill for being evil." ?
    It's impossible and can only happen with miraculous help. God always gives us the graces (miraculous help) to do His will.

    I know God understands when people do not forgive especially in times like you mention that just seem impossible. I think Elizabeth Smart's parents forgave, and they speak to others about forgiveness, since they forgave the impossible.

    I thank God I have not experienced something near that horrible to forgive, but I described here recently how God helped me forgive my ex, who betrayed me and broke up our marriage and our home, which was especially horrible because it was my son's home. I will never forget the heartbreaking statement my young son said in reaction to the "reveal" about our divorce, which we waited to do about 2-3 weeks before (a psychologist advised that timing). Afterward, seeing my son live the life of a child with a broken home when I would have endured ANYTHING to avoid that for him, made me keep resentment alive, even though intellectually I trusted God to help us and make things good in the end, somehow, and I knew my husband was damaged and could hardly help himself.

    When I confessed this weakness of mine to a pious priest he told me that was understandable. He was truly Christ to me at the moment, because I knew I need to forgive, and in my heart I knew I had not, and I had felt guilty, but now I felt Jesus understood. The priest who I confessed to, advised me (actually he asked me if this would be okay for me, and I said yes) to pray 3 Hail Mary's for my ex each day. And I was so relieved with the "assignment" from the Priest of God, because this was easier than praying for my ex, so much easier, to focus on Mary who is a good loving Mother, and not my hurtful ex, as I prayed. I could IGNORE him and think only of her when I prayed, asking her to do for me what I had trouble with, which was pray for my ex. So he got the best prayers ever from me, which i could not muster up in my own heart.

    (Sorry I just wrote about this incident on 16T and I could not find it to link it so I rewrote it here).

    So some months later I was very surprised to realize that for the first time in some years (2-3) I could think of my ex with no resentment in my heart. It was just gone. God had given me the miraculous graces through Holy Mary, Our Lady of Grace, to work the miracle of me truly forgiving when I could not muster it myself, in spite of truly wanting to do God's will (to forgive).

    A little later I detected for I still harbored resentment for his paramour, so I prayed Hail Mary's for her and all her loved ones, to the same effect.

    A person who has had their child abused needs even more miraculous graces that I got. But it works that way. You get as many graces as you need, and for some people, in some circumstance, that is a WHOLE LOT.

    I think it is wonderful that you have a heart for the suffering, especially the children. God suffers especially when the little children suffer. Sometimes He helps them, too, in ways we can't see. I have heard more than one story a a child being taken "out" of bad situations with a trip to Heaven. They play with other children and ride on giraffes and zebras, And return to earth when the worst is over. I know that sounds far-out but not only have I heard testimonies like this online more than once, I also heard it from my closest friend, an EII, with a gift for listening, who retold to me (with her elephant's memory) the very, very long story of a mother she met in a park that had this experienced this herself.

    I am glad you are so horrified at child sexual abuse. You have a good heart. We have some serious abusers in the Church hierarchy right now, some real Judases (But we also ahve some in the hierarchy that have astounding heroic virtue and what they speak and do is like Christ on earth) and Theodore McCarrick and Cardinal Bernadine are two of them. There is a cabal of them. It sickens me greatly.

    I drive by this stunning, strange compound on the way to work. It belongs to the infamous town of Newtown and it looks like an abandoned Ivy league college, majestic but so spooky, with a very few of it's fine buildings refurbished and kept up with the vast majority of these very massive beautiful buildings in great neglect and disrepair, while the lawn and landscaping is still beautiful. Odder still is townspeople walk around with their dogs or play ball in the field. I researched online and found it is one of the so many abandoned insane asylums in our country. I read peoples comments on the place, and what struck me most was a women who said she was committed there at age 17 becasue she told the police her father was molesting her.... : ( Thee is a lot of is a lot of sickness in this world. God will act, He must act, I am afraid, unless we clean it up, and I don't think we will...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  28. #68
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    @Eliza Thomason

    I was suspicious of a priest once and I looked him up and turns out my hunches were correct and he had a real criminal charge against him (for indecent exposure, didn't say anything about children or minors thank god). I wondered what else he was up to and it bothered/sickened me. I don't want him to hurt anybody else and I worry about it- but I mean, I don't want people to punish him too harshly as well cuz that could also have bad consequences. I just wish there was an easy way to stop them, but maybe you have to completely castrate them. By then though a forced court order of castration seems like it's too late and they already abused so many...

    I'm wary how the 'normal world' handles this thing cuz I mean.. .maybe you're so right. You have to leave it up to God cuz the worldly consequences of course don't always work.

    I think it's so common and so fucked up the moral failings of some ppl in the Priesthood. ((but also I guess maybe they are there to learn and grow from their shadow side as well?) Perverts and immoral ppl trying to teach us morals... (I use pervert in the negative sense of course as I don't think being a 'pervert' is always a bad thing if you mean it as just a person with a high sex drive & curious nature, as I'm more liberal with sexual things... but in this context I mean it the way a Delta ST str8 man would say it I guess. loL)

    I don't even like prison for them as often times they themselves will now be sexually abused way worse than what they ever did to others. That isn't right either. I don't even get justifying that, even though it's a normal reaction to be like 'oh yeah take that you pedo!' But that's not doing that, that's just adding more rape/molestation to the world. I can't see it as reaping what you are sowing when the reaps are so much more brutal than the sows. This horrible world.

    /prays with you

    (I don't mean to be funny or make fun of you, I really like you and u have helped me seen the light of God honestly even if I am just a sinful demonic Beta.)

  29. #69
    Farewell, comrades Not A Communist Shill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    "...your cause..." Apparently you think I have one? Truth-seeking is a cause I hold. And I sometimes wrongly project onto others that they are also truth seeking. I think when you, Subteigh, argue in defense of falsehoods, I sometimes assume there is a sincerity under that, and I want to respond to that. But it truly is a waste of my time if that sincerity is only a figment of my imagination.
    I know that Christians such as yourself see it as their goal in life to prosetylise to others about their faith. When I see the threads you make, this is in line with my impression. But these threads tend to be about the taste of your religion rather than any inherent truth, and advance a religion that was founded in superstition rather than fact. With Catholicism itself, there is little or no evidence of any of the first two centuries of Popes actually existing, and many of the later Popes carried out or promoted genocide, murder, slavery, rape, and cannibalism amongst other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    What an insult that you should say to me that the Gospel is a "myth". You are saying, "If you want to talk with me then I will insult your most deeply held beliefs." Got it.

    You have some prior exposure to lame heretical theology. You show no intention of ever opening your mind to any new considerations of what you swallowed whole upon reception. Quite a stumbling block to your ever getting to truth. But then, maybe you don't want to.
    I am open-minded. I asked you for one property of "God" that is observable. You have refused to give one such property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    No intelligent mind can consider Judas Iscariot a cause of salvation.

    How can anyone twist up theology to say things that make no sense?

    Sin. Sin dulls the mind and undermines intelligence.
    According to Christian dogma, if Jesus had not been pointed out to the authorities, Jesus would not have been able to commit suicide. This death was necessary according to Christian dogma because Christians are unable to take responsibility for their sins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You pontificate but you are no pontiff. You are a hypocrite. You defend the free choice of the violent, tortured deaths of pre-born babies, as they silently scream in the womb, and writhe to escape the whirling saws of the abortionists as their bodies are cut to bits. Perhaps, like Kamala, you also support the tortured death of post-born babies? You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth here becasue you clearly do not think that ALL torture is bad. The torture of innocent babies seems to hold some greater good in your mind!

    You have an abominable lack of humility to question God Himself, who is perfectly good, perfectly just, and a LOT smarter than you. Hell exists, and nothing exists without God, so there must be some good, some perfect justice to it, or it wouldn't be. But it does exist, and many are there now and many on earth now will be there for eternity. If you don't like that the eternal torture of the damned is a reality, remember that God's mind is a LOT bigger than yours, and you actually DON'T know everything. Imagine. God is perfect, and you are not. If it doesn't make sense to your little mind then SEEK UNDERSTANDING! Seek, and you will find.

    The reverse is true. Don't seek, and you won't find. But this kind of ignorance does not lead to bliss.
    I don't promote any death of any human. I think all death and torture is bad. I'd prefer it if death and torture did not exist.

    The evidence shows that legalising abortion results in fewer abortions than when it remains illegal. If anything, based on the evidence, the person who is in favour of excessive death is you.

    Your "God" promoted genocide and torture of human beings in its holy books. It also explicitly gives no value for fetuses in terms of human life in some passages, and carried out the killing of fetuses and infants.

    Some of the pontiffs of the Catholic Church are not only some of the worst hypocrites in history but carried out or promoted genocide, murder, slavery, and rape, and cannibalism amongst other things. The papacy has a mixed reputation at best.

    You have not provided one property of "God" that is observable yet. Can you give a property of "hell" that is observable?

    In my view I am more perfect than a being that does not exist, and more perfect than a being that engages in torture. I cannot think of anything worse than torture, and hence torture is never justifiable.

    It is inane to say "seek and ye shall find". I cannot find something that does not exist. It is poor science to start out with the assumption that something exists - that must be a significant way that people ending up believing in things without evidence.
    Last edited by Not A Communist Shill; 11-01-2020 at 05:20 AM.

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    Farewell, comrades Not A Communist Shill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Lol, sorry bro if I sounded a bit like I was speaking in Christianese...

    But yeah, let's see, having faith in Jesus...

    When a person has faith in Jesus, it means that he or she believes who Jesus is (God in human form) and trusts what Jesus has done (died and resurrected). This faith in the person and work of Christ is what saves. (also this faith may inspire one to do good works/good things, the stereotypical things you hear about Christianity)

    Again, God sent Jesus to die for the sin's of the world, so in response to God's love, is belief (or faith).

    Without faith in Jesus, we remain in sin and cannot be accepted into God’s presence in His perfect heaven. With faith in Jesus, we are given this access as God’s own children.

    To have faith in Jesus is to reject all other ways of salvation. It's not Jesus + Other stuff. It's Jesus + Nothing. We trust in Jesus alone. Salvation is exclusive. Jesus is the only way.
    The New Testament says that Jesus is the saviour of everybody, not just those who believe.

    "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    From John 3:16; For God so Loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    The point of Christianity is proclaiming this ^^ gospel message ^^ to others, and reinforcing it through how we live (more on that later)...

    Basically, since we are all sinners, we deserve eternal punishment and death after this life. However, since God loved humanity so much, he sent his son Jesus to die for the sins of the world. He died, and rose again.

    By believing in Jesus, and having in faith in him alone, we are saved.

    So it's not about "the stuff" we do, or following rules, or doing this or that. No. The work was already done by Jesus.

    It's about removing ME, and I, actually, and focusing on what Jesus did for us / and what he can do for us by trusting him with every aspect of our lives.

    That's it. All the extra stuff you hear about are all misconceptions.





    These are all misconceptions / secondary / a byproduct of Christianity, but not the primary point
    No crime deserves eternal punishment. To say otherwise is immoral.

    Eternal punishment as a doctrine is a later invention that many Christian sects follow. The Jews who followed Yahweh had no such doctrine.

    Also, in most societies, punishing the innocent does not absolve the guilty of crime. Punishing the innocent is itself a crime.

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    @Eliza Thomason
    Being careful not to insult the "most deeply held beliefs" of others...

    Do you believe that Vishnu reincarnated as Rama?

    Do you believe that the Buddha when he died reached "parinirvana (final nirvana, the end of rebirth and suffering achieved after the death of the body)"?

    Do you believe that Muhammad received a divine message from God via the angel Jibreel (Gabriel)?

    Do you believe that Joseph Smith received a divine message from God via the angel Moroni?

    Do you believe that the incident at Roswell in 1947 involved a flying saucer and aliens?

    Do you believe that Kim Jong-un is a god?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You pontificate but you are no pontiff. You are a hypocrite.
    You are married but are opposed to priests getting married. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite by your standard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    What an insult that you should say to me that the Gospel is a "myth". You are saying, "If you want to talk with me then I will insult your most deeply held beliefs." Got it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    This fits here in this sub forum becasue it pretty much covers all the topics: philosophy, politics, economics, science, religion. Yes, even the last, because I see vegetarianism as being akin to a false religion.

    Lierre Keith says it best in her amazing book, The Vegetarian Myth. Yes, it is a myth. All the reasons most people are vegetarianism are inmost every case based on falsehoods, myths, or outright lies.
    I won't call you a "hypocrite" here - although you might - but you are being inconsistent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The New Testament says that Jesus is the saviour of everybody, not just those who believe.

    "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10
    He extends the offer to everyone, but he still gives us free will to choose/accept him or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    No crime deserves eternal punishment. To say otherwise is immoral.

    Eternal punishment as a doctrine is a later invention that many Christian sects follow. The Jews who followed Yahweh had no such doctrine.

    Also, in most societies, punishing the innocent does not absolve the guilty of crime. Punishing the innocent is itself a crime.
    Just because God is loving, doesn't mean he loves everything—there are some things that God doesn’t love - murder, abuse, selfishness, pride etc etc. Actually, if he is loving, then he will hate these things. It wouldn’t be very loving of God to look at something like child abuse and say: “Well, I’m not really that bothered.”

    And because this loving God hates bad things, he does something about it. And this is good news. We all have a kind of a sense of justice.

    Here's the thing though - NONE of us are perfect. None of us have treated God, or treated each other, in the perfect way we were intended to.

    And so I deserve punishment of my wrongdoing too. We actually all deserve to be punished. We all deserve to go to hell. None of us are perfect - so none of us should be in God’s perfect kingdom

    Now as I say this, I know it’s not an easy thing to hear. It’s not an easy thing for me to hear. But just because we don’t like something, doesn’t mean that it’s not true.

    And it’s not something that Jesus says flippantly or lightly, without caring. He doesn’t say it just to scare us. But he does say it to warn us - and to help us see how amazing it is that he offers us a way out.

    Because this is the amazing news - that even though we all deserve punishment, even though we deserve to go to hell, Jesus - God himself - has provided a way out for us. He doesn’t do this by leaving things unpunished, and so forgetting about justice. He does it by himself taking our place; in his death taking our punishment and himself experiencing hell so that we don’t have to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    He extends the offer to everyone, but he still gives us free will to choose/accept him or not.
    I think the quote is quite unambiguous. It does not say "Jesus is the saviour of all men except those who do not have faith."

    You are incorrect. I do not choose what I believe. I cannot choose or accept something I do not believe in the existence of. I cannot choose with full possession of my faculties to follow something I regard as immoral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Just because God is loving, doesn't mean he loves everything—there are some things that God doesn’t love - murder, abuse, selfishness, pride etc etc. Actually, if he is loving, then he will hate these things. It wouldn’t be very loving of God to look at something like child abuse and say: “Well, I’m not really that bothered.”

    And because this loving God hates bad things, he does something about it. And this is good news. We all have a kind of a sense of justice.
    A being that knows it is able to prevent evil but does not do so must be evil itself. According to Christian dogma, they follow such a being. There is nothing good about it.

    It sounds to me that "God", if it exists, is no more loving than I am - and may indeed be less so. "God is love" is a three word phrase, but when the theologians get involved, it seems that phrase becomes a lot more nuanced and convoluted.

    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Here's the thing though - NONE of us are perfect. None of us have treated God, or treated each other, in the perfect way we were intended to.

    And so I deserve punishment of my wrongdoing too. We actually all deserve to be punished. We all deserve to go to hell. None of us are perfect - so none of us should be in God’s perfect kingdom

    Now as I say this, I know it’s not an easy thing to hear. It’s not an easy thing for me to hear. But just because we don’t like something, doesn’t mean that it’s not true.

    And it’s not something that Jesus says flippantly or lightly, without caring. He doesn’t say it just to scare us. But he does say it to warn us - and to help us see how amazing it is that he offers us a way out.

    Because this is the amazing news - that even though we all deserve punishment, even though we deserve to go to hell, Jesus - God himself - has provided a way out for us. He doesn’t do this by leaving things unpunished, and so forgetting about justice. He does it by himself taking our place; in his death taking our punishment and himself experiencing hell so that we don’t have to.
    Here's the thing though - you don't get to set the exclusive standard of what it means to be perfect, or what it means to be just. Those are aesthetic judgements, and are only truths relative to who makes the appraisal.

    Jesus did not tell me anything. I don't know who this bloke is that you keep referring to. He should make his own case.

    "He who orders his slave to do things that he knows him to be incapable of doing, then punishes him, is a fool" ~ Abu Isa al-Warraq

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    The New Testament is ambiguous about "Hell".

    One Jesus version written by one writer has this story:
    “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [h]fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with [i]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

    27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”
    - "Luke" 16:19-31

    But another Jesus version written by another writer has this:
    12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
    - Revelation 20:12-15

    Note that it says that Death and Hades (Hell) themselves were cast into the fire and destroyed. This is described as the "second death", in contrast with (eternal) life) - i.e. that those who are not cronies of Jesus suffer a second death after being resurrected. They are not tortured.

    "Hades" in Greek theology was the abode of the dead:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
    Gehenna or Gehinnom (literally translated as "Valley of Hinnom") is thought to be a small valley in Jerusalem. In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire.[1] Thereafter, it was deemed to be cursed (Book of Jeremiah 7:31, 19:2–6).[2]

    In rabbinic literature, Gehenna is also a destination of the wicked.[3] Gehinnom is not Hell, but originally a grave and in later times a sort of purgatory where one is judged based on one's life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah explains it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehinnom forever; the longest that a Jew can be there is said to be 11 months (unless he is a fully wicked person, in which case 12 months), however there has been the occasional noted exception.

    This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, although the King James Version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word hell.

    In the King James Version of the Bible, the term appears 13 times in 11 different verses as Valley of Hinnom, Valley of the son of Hinnom or Valley of the children of Hinnom. The Valley of Hinnom is the modern name for the valley surrounding Jerusalem's Old City, including Mount Zion, from the west and south. It meets and merges with the Kidron Valley, the other principal valley around the Old City, near the southeastern corner of the city.
    The notion of eternal torture in the dogma of some prominent Christian sects is a deviation from historic Jewish dogma, where no person was in the fire for more than 12 months, excepting a few rare exceptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I think the quote is quite unambiguous. It does not say "Jesus is the saviour of all men except those who do not have faith."
    The phrase "Savior of all people" is unique in the Bible to this verse. It clearly does not mean every person is saved in the sense that every person goes to heaven. Scripture often presents the need for people to be "saved" in order to have eternal life, rather than eternal destruction (see John 3:16–18; 2 Thessalonians 1:9 for context).

    You are incorrect. I do not choose what I believe. I cannot choose or accept something I do not believe in the existence of. I cannot choose with full possession of my faculties to follow something I regard as immoral.
    You are presented with facts, evidence, counter-arguments, scripture, the core beliefs etc from various sources. It's your choice in deciding what u want to do with that.
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 11-01-2020 at 05:13 PM.

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