Extraverted sensing Se hidden agenda of LIEs-ENTjs

[Ezra]

Yeah, I think I was actually. It's all these names beginning with "i" and ending in "d". Confusing and harrowing stuff.

[Ezra]

Interesting post, uninspired. I've always been health conscious since I was 13, and I haven't had much problems in immediatly identifying which exercise routine was best for my health. This definitely takes away from the possibility of me being ENTj, if we consider it to be a key trait of the type.

I couldn't imagine a rational 7 anyway. It's like having an extraverted 5w4.

You say you're health conscious - would you say you've been image conscious on top of that?

[FDG]

Interesting post, uninspired. I've always been health conscious since I was 13, and I haven't had much problems in immediatly identifying which exercise routine was best for my health. This definitely takes away from the possibility of me being ENTj, if we consider it to be a key trait of the type.

I couldn't imagine a rational 7 anyway. It's like having an extraverted 5w4.

You say you're health conscious - would you say you've been image conscious on top of that?

No, not really, except in very specific instances. I've been told I'm pretty clueless about it, even if I don't really perceive myself as such.

In any case, behavioural descriptions of type 7 are not complements of rationality. I think in most instances they're basically independent - we could even refer to the future-planning-orientation of 7s as being a signal of rationality.

[uninspired]

Do you know what Etype he is, uninspired?

He's an Enneagram 1. I made him take the test, which he found very odd, lol.

Thank you, uninspired. You have a very good understanding of ENTjs.

Thank you . If you live with one for almost 20 years, I guess you pick up a thing or two about them.

[Ezra]

In any case, behavioural descriptions of type 7 are not complements of rationality. I think in most instances they're basically independent - we could even refer to the future-planning-orientation of 7s as being a signal of rationality.

Good point actually. But I'd say it was more to do with Ne as opposed to rationality; the sense of vision and intuition provides planning rather than any of the rational functions.

[inconnu]

Dear LIEs (and others),

Please explain me all this gamma-Se stuff, from a LIE prism.
Which should be a big part of the LIE's development on theory

What really happens?
Grounds you down? Makes you more relaxed and tranquil? Gives you will to be more pro-active? Helps communication? Allows you to better guard your ideas?

How did you develop yours, share some tips here.

Thanks

[FDG]

I thougth it is somehow related to grounding Ni archetypes and ideas into step-by-step everyday practices (It does sound boring but it doesn't have to be - it can be related to any -creative kind of idea). Remember that LIEs would "develop" creative-Se, not base-Se - which would be more related to strategical outmaneuvring by force or by relations.

[Finale]

The more Se I've developed, the more it has removed the stick from my ass and allowed me to be more spontaneous, lively and dynamic.

A good example from my LIE perspective- I was always one of those people that is already plotting out my path to the bathroom, kitchen then trashcan (and then grabbing a dirty dish off my desk to increase efficiency) before I even get out of my chair.

Developing Se for me was to learn how to spend more time living in the moment, losing fear of expressing of random thoughts and behaviors, being more aggressive in some ways, smelling the roses vs. running by, and finally letting things happen vs. always planning, plotting and trying to stay one step ahead. It's basically learning to be a little less inhibited overall.

[mfckr]

The more Se I've developed, the more it has removed the stick from my ass and allowed me to be more spontaneous, lively and dynamic.

…

Developing Se for me was to learn how to spend more time living in the moment, losing fear of expressing of random thoughts and behaviors, being more aggressive in some ways, smelling the roses vs. running by, and finally letting things happen vs. always planning, plotting and trying to stay one step ahead. It's basically learning to be a little less inhibited overall.

I don't think of my life in terms of Socionics (and I adamantly refuse to), but I noticed around age 19 that I had a sudden burst in that sort of spontaneous real-time awareness—in the sense of being able to place more conscious emphasis on it, that is. As I'd had mental states like that before of course, but wasn't as acutely aware of it then, so it was more something taken for granted.

I always figured it was some ADHD-related thing. And I remember at some point early in my life I developed some kind of insecurity about being spontaneous, etc. and it got in my head somehow that being rigid would be more appealing or something. So I tried to repress my impulsivity and be more controlled/deliberate. It never really worked, though it seems like I end oscillating back & forth between rigidity vs. spontaneity, yet I feel much happier in the latter.

I still do some of the on-the-fly short-term micro-planning like you described of yourself, but I do that more out of impatience and knowing that I'm prone to getting irritated if I have to do something in many steps (esp. when superfluous or repetitive) when it could've been condensed to fewer.

[Pierreuse]

For LIEs and EIEs alike I think it's basically about just being less hesitant and actually doing. I have a very good LIE friend who was a good deal happier recently when her Se began to show and she started getting shit DONE instead of fantasizing about it. It's like growing teeth... a long period of pain and agonizing followed by unquestionable success. In the span of two years she moved to Japan and got accepted into one of the top universities there, Waseda.

[Introspector]

http://books.google.com.eg/books?id=...epage&q&f=true

starting page 23

[Amber]

Right, I have a question.

Are LIEs generally more disciplined or undisciplined? Because I've read that they're both. What do most people agree that they are?

no idea what this is about. All LIEs I know are very disciplined .... but sort of "work hard and play hard" in their manner. First comes discipline, but when they are up to having fun, they can very well exhaust themselves in clubs or travel for a few days in a row forgetting about everything. They just compartimentalize these 2 things very well.

[Muddy]

Some things about myself that might be linked to Se HA:


Self-Esteem being directly linked to how strong and capable I see myself when compared to others, feeling jealous compared to those who are better in some way (though I don't display this).

Interest and fascination with weapons and the military.

Preference for gritty, realistic, violent movies and forms of media over childish/non-serious ones.

Preference for video games that are intense and challenging like online shooters and MOBAs over less action orientated games like Minecraft.

Frequently fantasies of having superpowers.

Motivation for staying healthy based more on physical attraction then actual health benefits.

Fears of being seen by others as a wimpy loser.

Feeling the best when I beating somebody else at something.

[Pallas]

@Muddytextures I think that's all quite related (even if some of it is not exclusively HA) but to have HA, you have to be LIE (or EIE) and not LII...

[Rebelondeck]

From an outsider perspective, I have found that their hidden agenda seems to manifest itself in an internal desire to have everything simple and basic rather than with the many complexities that they normally see. They seem to not view the world from an unbiased perspective and can take things rather personally, but I think that they see the value in being more objective. They'd like to have more concrete facts than the gut feeling on which they usually proceed; however, their impatience often stands in the way of detailed investigation. They express sentiments that they should be more practical and should break their understandings into simpler concepts for better communication with others but they seem to just gravitate toward issuing orders and leading the pack. They do like to be armed with detail but prefer others to get it and to also put it into context for them.

a.k.a. I/O

[wacey]

From an outsider perspective, I have found that their hidden agenda seems to manifest itself in an internal desire to have everything simple and basic rather than with the many complexities that they normally see. They seem to not view the world from an unbiased perspective and can take things rather personally, but I think that they see the value in being more objective. They'd like to have more concrete facts than the gut feeling on which they usually proceed; however, their impatience often stands in the way of detailed investigation. They express sentiments that they should be more practical and should break their understandings into simpler concepts for better communication with others but they seem to just gravitate toward issuing orders and leading the pack. They do like to be armed with detail but prefer others to get it and to also put it into context for them.

a.k.a. I/O

Very interesting, will need to mull it over.

[Pallas]

Well, in the LIEs I've known, they tend to be really into military history, violent movies and video games, weapons, etc. but not do pure things like play sports so much (although they don't tend to be totally sports-adverse like non- valuers tend to be). EIEs are similar but tend to be more into violence in the arts, which has some overlap, rather than just reading about Roman wars and such. Yes, is largely about violence, and at the very least about force, so don't be wishy-washy about that.

[Zero]

Do you think ENTjs tend to expect others to be tough and have trouble sympathizing with those they see as being able to get out of a bad situation if they'd only use a bit of Se?

Yes we make friends with them to figure out their attitude and use in the future, using our Ni

[Zero]

Right, I have a question.

Are LIEs generally more disciplined or undisciplined? Because I've read that they're both. What do most people agree that they are?

Depends on the situation, if we want to achieve something truly we bulldoze through life, but at school for example, since I didn't value school was undisciplined. So we are both depending how much we value the goal of the task at hand

[Zero]

Undisciplined when it comes to keeping up with physical routines, like a consistent exercise regiment, diet, or chores. It's not uncommon for ENTjs to wear the same clothes for more than one day, too. That sort of thing.

One day? how about forever

[Zero]

Do they see weak people as inferior even if they understand the reason for the weak person's weakness?

Yes

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

Developing Se for me was to learn how to spend more time living in the moment, losing fear of expressing of random thoughts and behaviors, being more aggressive in some ways, smelling the roses vs. running by, and finally letting things happen vs. always planning, plotting and trying to stay one step ahead. It's basically learning to be a little less inhibited overall.

I still do some of the on-the-fly short-term micro-planning like you described of yourself, but I do that more out of impatience and knowing that I'm prone to getting irritated if I have to do something in many steps (esp. when superfluous or repetitive) when it could've been condensed to fewer.

I think what I wanted to think about are Micro intuitions. I think it is already explained by some term like thinking fast (Book by Kahnemann or sth). Like you just see sth. or sth. is going on and you have immediately some sort of hunch and go with it. Now I think this has to come from somewhere, because often enough it can be correct and makes you impact situations faster and in the here and now. Therefore everything else that comes, also rolls faster and you tie whole chunks quicker together. Like not pondering, do something, anything and then roll with it.

The ‘sense’ is there for everyone and you can develop it by a lot of testing and experiences. Testing against the outside, looking what shows up, what doesn’t, tracking things how they develop, pondering what the connections are. That of course takes time (mb. ‘higher’ Ni, I mean it’s really a certain headspace). Then when you might come across sth., that sets it off, idk. you can make the connection immediately. You honed this ‘sense’ skill and it can go quicker now. The whole chunk beforehand with going through everything, the whole process is cut down quicker to some result.

Se therefore is also a bit a different headspace. No, I’m honest I sometimes really get the feeling with Se base, that they have this Ni, this micro intuition and micro because the time frame is shorter. They are more in Se so Ni has to catch up quicker to deliver, with whatever gets thrown into the way. But of course it can be right and it can be wrong, because focus is on the here and now and less about pondering. Then also role reverse with the other, longer range. You can take in implications. The time to look at is longer. But the Se angle has to suffer for this.

So bc. of thread I probably have to put it down more neatly socionics terms. Let’s say Ni – creative, intuitive application for impact (Se hidden agenda). LOL
Long term and short term, regarding Ni in which position and then it kind of scales out. Long story short. Going out of implication pondering for immediate application.
Note: Re. Se, Ne also somewhere like this, but then together with Si and idk... not writing too much, one thing at a time.

 

I’m not LIE, but I could relate to some points.

I think, I’m still at a point, where it should be allowed to work out things. I’m still very young. The past years I just tried to feel myself around regarding certain things and had to come to realize some stuff. I thought that one direction seemed plausible to me (not what some people probably assume about me). I thought it seemed like the logical ‘extension’ and that it kind of fitted some idea of my ‘temperament’. Like it made sense superficially, but with more and more happening, it doesn’t so much anymore. I still try to feel myself around in the dark. I still don’t know with absolute certainty which direction, but for the first time I feel, really feel, that this is ok.

I already knew about some things. Tendencies and where they can go. Like when you already feel the warning signs and you do your fast forward, like to see where it can be going and you don’t want it to develop like that, then trust the warning sign (do not trespass). You did not wanted to go down certain roads. I like this one analogy. It is like the first time, where it is really really ok. Like you wake up one day and the weather is beautiful and you decide to take a walk outside. You don’t know about everything, where every road leads to. But it doesn’t matter, you just go where your nose leads you to. You have what’s around you and maybe some inner sense, that can guide you a bit.

I know I’m still very different in that aspect compared to others. I know the 100% super version of this looks different. I also know, that there are just things/tendencies, that I will never let go off. It’s just the way how I am. I’m really fine with that. I just want to have this part in my way. It just feels good, to know that about myself. It has always been there and it feels a bit like coming home. How it always feels better to be just immersed in what’s going on. To be dynamic. To just do your things and then it just turns out the way it will turn out. To not always try to control. To not always have to grab on to tight onto a direction thread.

[Hope]

How does the Se Hidden Agenda of LIEs manifest?

[Number 9 large]

They like to see things

[lavos]

It means that it's unwise to ever attack a LIE physically.

[Saoirse]

I think Socionics Se and MBTI Se are the same function, just the two typologies focus on diff aspects of it (Socionics Se = force, MBTI Se = acting in the moment, enjoying luxuries).

I just met a LIE who moves with an interesting swagger. She seems quite confident in her Se. She's very good with her hands for cooking (yes, a cooking LIE, wow ).

In general, I don't think LIEs are shy about putting pressure on others to get what they want, telling others what to do (Te helps).

Some of them def also like fancy things (see http://mr-entj.com/, my fav LIE Tumblr).

[Adam Strange]

My LSI ex-GF said that when I put on my coat to go to work, the way I walked changed to business/power. I've noticed that when I'm working, I have a different mind-set, but I didn't think the difference was noticeable.

I keep cash and gold in my sock drawer in case I need to buy something right away and the banks aren't available.

I bought an old Jaguar XK-E and a Mercedes 560 SEC because they are beautiful, and powerful, and are also very interesting mechanical devices.

I like beautiful art, but one of the most beautiful things from my childhood was an 8" telescope mirror that I made myself. It was a polished, reflective surface in space that was a nearly perfect parabola of revolution, accurate to almost one millionth of an inch. Se + Ni + Te = Fi.

I don't like to tell people what to do, but I have no trouble encouraging them to move toward a goal.

I can usually catch something knocked off a table before it hits the floor.

However:

I back into things because I'm not always aware they are there, and

I have a really, really hard time firing someone, and

I haven't gotten into a fist fight in over twenty years.


Here's some Se-HA porn; Power and grace towards a good purpose:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb9GUoiT3ts

[Adam Strange]

Se-HA in LIE's is supposed to mean that LIE's want to be wealthy. I don't want to be wealthy per se. I want to be beyond someone else's arbitrary control and beyond inconvenience.

[FDG]

My LSI ex-GF said that when I put on my coat to go to work, the way I walked changed to business/power. I've noticed that when I'm working, I have a different mind-set, but I didn't think the difference was noticeable.

Ah yeah, my gf also said that when I talk "business" on the phone, my voice changes. Now she's used to it but I remember she was a bit shocked/surprised about it when we first started dating and I was arguing with someone on the phone about a delayed payment, during a romantic lunch. lol.

[Hope]

I was thinking that LIEs Se HA could has something to do with bunch of them dont acting like "victims" in itrs (the pseudo aggressor role).

[at sirac son of sirac]

Ah yeah, my gf also said that when I talk "business" on the phone, my voice changes. Now she's used to it but I remember she was a bit shocked/surprised about it when we first started dating and I was arguing with someone on the phone about a delayed payment, during a romantic lunch. lol.

I think this might be common?

I had an IEE friend who's typical behavior was to be rather immature.

She worked as a PA and one time at her house, she was on the phone to her boss taking notes, and I was surprised at how business like and organized she sounded.

[at sirac son of sirac]

Se-HA in LIE's is supposed to mean that LIE's want to be wealthy. I don't want to be wealthy per se. I want to be beyond someone else's arbitrary control and beyond inconvenience.

I like this one, there's more to wealth than just money.

I've noticed Se types are good at pushing persistently to get what they want.

Getting what you want, having it your way etc, is a form of accumulation, ie, wealth.

I work with an ESI-Se who's quite pushy about what she wants, thinks, principles (some of the principles I think are ill thought out), but, I tend to agree with her. Not because I agree with her, but it's easier to keep the peace than have a backwards and forwards clash of wills (which is often a sensible approach in professional matters for relatively small matters.)

[WVBRY]

I was thinking that LIEs Se HA could has something to do with bunch of them dont acting like "victims" in itrs (the pseudo aggressor role).

Gulenko's erotic attitudes deal with how one perceive's oneself, the other system of erotic attitudes, I forget the author, deals more with behaviors.

This is just my understanding, but I don't find them to be contradictory. Someone can see themselves as a "victim" and develop attitudes accordingly all the while appearing to others as "pseudo-aggressor".

I think the nomenclature of these erotic attitudes is poorly chosen though, especially the "pseudo-aggressor". What does thet even mean? Lol.

[Tigerfadder]

I think there is a singularity to their force. SEE for example use force all the time and it is a natural part of their personality and how they live. LIE however do all the other stuff with their Te, Ni and Ne but from time to time they full blast their Se. Almost as strong as the SLE but a lot rarer and less "on point". Se in ILI is more implanted in how they do their everyday business but less strong and effective as LIE, a lot weaker.

[Chae]

I think there is a singularity to their force. SEE for example use force all the time and it is a natural part of their personality and how they live. LIE however do all the other stuff with their Te, Ni and Ne but from time to time they full blast their Se. Almost as strong as the SLE but a lot rarer and less "on point". Se in ILI is more implanted in how they do their everyday business but less strong and effective as LIE, a lot weaker.

Yeah ILI is rather skilled at countering and molding it because they're on the opposite of the spectrum. Good comparison with SLE there.

[Chae]

It means that it's unwise to ever attack a LIE physically.

In general you shouldn't do that senselessly and if so, it depends on their actual, individual combat skills But I think... when LIEs fight, it's more like this:

[Tigerfadder]

Yeah ILI is rather skilled at countering and molding it because they're on the opposite of the spectrum. Good comparison with SLE there.

Yes molded is a good word. Muscle memory.

[ooo]

uh, isn't the HA actually a sort of weak function that takes some effort to properly master? from sociotype:

The individual tends to feel capable of achieving his goals, but hesitates on whether the path he is choosing is the right one. In these cases he needs to feel the support of others in order to be motivated to finally choose. He likes to be involved in competitive and challenging endeavors and to see his will and personal power develop as he overcomes obstacles together with other people. However, he depends on others to provide the gusto and motivation for these endeavors.

I see in the LIEs I know an undeniable assertive streak, but that's not about them acting with force or with an overly confident "my way or the highway", they're actually pretty malleable people, well aware of their usually superior abilities (in the things they care for), and this can give the impression of them being harsh, but I don't see them like that. They would like themselves to be bossier and confident with their Se, which is provided by the Dual's creative, which they seek.

[WVBRY]

They would like themselves to be bossier and confident with their Se, which is provided by the Dual's creative, which they seek.

I don't particularly want to be bossy. It's more important to be able to set my boundries.

I think if I wanted to be bossy I could easily be, it's not a question of not being able, it's just not my thing. As far as domination goes, I don't want to dominate others, but I do want to avoid being dominated.

I was reading earlier today about this being the difference between 8w7 and 8w9: the former dominates, the latter tries to avoid submission.

I don't know that I'm an 8w9, I think I'm 3w4 but I relate to this description at least.

I think the LIE's HA will manifest differently in terms of behaviors if they have different enneatypes.

My boss is LIE 8w7 and he's pretty commanding but I don't know if that's just how he is professionally or if it's how he is all the time.

[ooo]

It's a funny to think of an E 8 who's not bossy, eheh. Maybe bossy is the wrong word though, I associate it to Se as in: directly facing obstacles or trying to overcome them hands on. For example, an ESI uses Se more as you've described, recognizes obstacles and tries to eclipse them, resulting in the bitchy attitude which is like a wall built to protect them. LSI somehow uses the same logic of overcoming potential obstacles by applying cold logic, while base Se are just "yo I can face whatever!" and then smashes a wall with his head.